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Post by arkadi on Jun 3, 2020 19:22:43 GMT
I'm starting to think that the "Two Annie" problem is completely separate from the "Time Traveling Tic Toc" problem. In other words, the Annie problem doesn't involve time travel; Loup created two Annies because he needed two Annies for his plan, which involves returning that wretched water. With two Annies, he can blackmail them into doing what he wants. The two Annies were created exactly when he needed them to be created. The time travel problem is basically a stable time loop with some bootstrapping going on. Kat's right, she is going to have to send the Tic Toc back; and the Tic Toc will save Annie's life. But it won't create two Annies. Usually in time travel stories, if you have two copies of a person, one of the two is "from the future" and should know stuff that the other one doesn't. We haven't seen any of that yet. The time loop and the two Annies are clearly two distinct problems, each with its own causes and possible solutions. The time loop might well solve itself: assuming it's stable, Kat will probably decide to let it be, as undoing it would undo the present timeline completely. But that still leaves us with the problem that there's another universe where Annie just disappeared and a lot of things have gone south. Kat might decide that she doesn't want an alternative version of herself grieving the loss of "her" Annie and make it her duty to return her to her original timeline; or we could have Alternative Kat taking action from her own side to get Annie back. Temporal Affairs might or might not get involved: depending on how you look at it, alternate universes may not be "their department". Either way, the potential for shenanigans is mind-boggling... |
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 3, 2020 21:21:43 GMT
So when she pointed at the two Annies and said "This is impossible!" . . . maybe she wasn't just talking about there being two Annies? Maybe she was also talking about the fact that there are any Annies at all?
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jocobo
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Posts: 78 
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Post by jocobo on Jun 3, 2020 22:26:45 GMT
So when she pointed at the two Annies and said "This is impossible!" . . . maybe she wasn't just talking about there being two Annies? Maybe she was also talking about the fact that there are any Annies at all? If Annie herself is impossible, as a very existence, it might be time for Kat to accept that the impossible is indeed possible.
Maybe that's the impetus for her to finally breakthrough. Embracing that reality can indeed be bent to suit ones needs.
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Post by liminal on Jun 3, 2020 22:54:39 GMT
Or later rather than sooner, if you're a 3 space 1 time dimensional being 3 Space, 1 Time seems like a video I really don’t want to watch. |
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Post by warrl on Jun 3, 2020 22:57:43 GMT
Should also add: Right now, it seems reasonable to believe the Antimony who fell still hasn't been saved. Some Antimony has been saved. Any Antimony who fell and wasn't saved, is dead. Any Antimony who didn't fall, didn't need saved (at least on that occasion - an Antimony has been saved on at least four other occasions, by Katrina, Coyote, Zimmy, and James - and I think I'm forgetting some). There's an Antimony (two of her actually) right there with Kat. Now what happens if Kat *doesn't* send that tic-toc into the past (multiple times, or first making several more of it), is anyone's guess, and I predict we won't find out. Although, hypothetically, maybe Kat won't do it but someone else will. (Wildspec: they free Coyote from Loup, and he does it. Hey, it would make at least as much sense as Kat figuring out how to do it. Being a newborn deity would be confusing enough in itself, without having to mess with time on the first day; Coyote has experience.) |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 4, 2020 2:11:16 GMT
So when she pointed at the two Annies and said "This is impossible!" . . . maybe she wasn't just talking about there being two Annies? Maybe she was also talking about the fact that there are any Annies at all? exactly. That there are any Annies at all implies Kat solved (to rescue one Annie) the secret of time travel, which is impossible! (Until she solves it...) edit: whoo hoo- 1000 comments! |
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Post by jda on Jun 4, 2020 2:39:12 GMT
edit: whoo hoo- 1000 comments! Congrats! Freshly baked, non existant, time traveled cookies fo you! |
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Post by jda on Jun 4, 2020 2:41:06 GMT
Well, it seems that this is a very Pigmaliony effect: "Well, seems like I somehow in the future invented timetravel, so even if I think is impossible, I think I will dedicate to it".
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Kuraimizu
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Post by Kuraimizu on Jun 4, 2020 5:38:10 GMT
It's at this point things get complicated, because unless you have a way to target a single timeline, anytime you try to time-travel, a clone of you will appear in every timeline that has the same time and date, as the one you were hoping to visit. Sure you want to go and visit a date in the history of your timeline, but lots of parallel timelines have the same time and date. sure you will end up in the past exactly where you want, But there's also a high probability that you end up in all the adjacent realities as well. Sure you could end up in our 1970's populated with hippies, but there might be a version of you that suddenly finds himself in a reality where Hitler's Nazi's won World War 2. Or an alternate reality where the dinosaurs never went extinct, and humans had to evolve alongside giant reptiles, instead of, or including woolly mammoths. That was both a great and interesting explanation of timetravel, but I don't fully follow how clones of me would appear in all timelines that contain the same time and date. Time-travel could best be described as transmitting your wavefunction forwards or backwards in time. In such a way that you re-enter the timeline at the Date, time, and location you intended to arrive. in theory you could target a single timeline, but you would have to know the wavefunction of that timeline, and add that wave signature onto your own wavefunction, causing you to fall out of phase with our timeline, and in to phase with the target timeline. But that would imply you had already visited that timeline and acquired it's wavefunction, or that you had a map of time that included the wavefunction of every date, time, and location, which again would require visiting each of those timelines previously, or having some sort of God give you that knowledge. Alternately, if we could discover how to read a wave function we might be able to figure out how a wave function changes, between different times, dates, and locations in space. We could then target a specific date, and location, to travel to. But we wouldn't be able to choose the timeline, we go to. It would be like a radio broadcast antenna, compared to a satellite dish. A satellite dish can focus where you send radio waves but it can't limit the broadcast to a single radio receiver. Each radio that receives the signal plays back a clone of the original broadcast. In much the same way that we may not be able to select what timeline a time traveller ends up in. The other way to time-travel, would be basically doing the job of a radio broadcast antenna. In which case, you'd end up sending clones into the past and future, and alternate timelines, and across space and time. You would literally break the time line into a giant fractal. Sending clones of yourself, into the time line at planck-second intervals, and dropping clones everywhere across space. Some of these clones will wind up drifting in space, and eventually dying. Some of them will find themselves falling onto the surface of earth, or into the sun, or onto the moon, or some other planetary body. Some will find themselves in caves deep underground, some will arrive on the planet surface, some will appear in solid rock, or molten magma. Some might find half of their body fused into a tree or large animal. Or fused with a litter or swarm of smaller animals. Badly done time travel could be a horrible way to die. Each new timeline formed as a result of such a temporal incursion, would each only have one of you. but each of those new timelines, could also receive another time clone. Luckily each time you enter a timeline, it also creates a timeline that isn't touched. But that means a majority of timelines resulting from the incursion could have multiple time clones. a minority of timelines, would have either none of you ever arrive, and be completely normal. another minority of timelines, could have so many time clones arrive the entire universe would collapse into a giant black hole. The greater the temporal broadcast power, the further the wave function could travel and the more damaging the resulting temporal incursion would become. |
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Post by arf on Jun 4, 2020 7:06:39 GMT
I'm travelling forward in time constantly, yet I remain stationary relative to the Earth. I can imagine a time machine mucking with my inertial reference frame, but what does the relative velocity of stars and galaxies have to do with it? I think the point is that you're constantly being accelerated by the Earth as it drags you along its hurling path. The stars and galaxy are relevant because the Earth, on average, is following the trajectory of the Sun, which, on average, follows the Milky Way's trajectory, etc. If your hypothetical time travel device displaces you in time but not in space, you won't end up on Earth because the Earth is actually moving quite fast, and it never really stays in the same place in space. Of course, this comic isn't really about that, so probably Kat's method of time travel will conveniently keep the Tic Tocs on Earth.  This is why it's "Time *And* Relative Dimensions In Space" |
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Kuraimizu
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Post by Kuraimizu on Jun 4, 2020 7:31:13 GMT
A Tardis is the best and only way to time travel.
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Post by warrl on Jun 4, 2020 7:39:06 GMT
I think the point is that you're constantly being accelerated by the Earth as it drags you along its hurling path. The stars and galaxy are relevant because the Earth, on average, is following the trajectory of the Sun, which, on average, follows the Milky Way's trajectory, etc. If your hypothetical time travel device displaces you in time but not in space, you won't end up on Earth because the Earth is actually moving quite fast, and it never really stays in the same place in space. Relative to a line running between the sun and the earth, a point on the earth's equator is moving at 1,037.5 MPH due to the earth's rotation. Relative to a line running between the sun and the center of the galaxy, the earth as a whole is moving at about 67,000 MPH in its orbit around the sun. And relative to a line running between the center of our galaxy and the center of some random far-distant galaxy that's sort of near the plane of our galaxy, the whole solar system is moving at about 500,000 miles per hour. And if you want to do time-travel on the surface of a planet, it's not enough to account for all that motion and hit the right point in space and time - you also have to hit that point *with the right velocity*. Ignore that, and you might make a nice impact crater... or simply be torn apart by trying to travel at mach 2.6... This is why it's "Time *And* Relative Dimensions In Space"[/quote] I think I've read TWO time-travel stories that didn't ignore the problem completely... and one of them only mentioned that the computers were dealing with it. (The other one, time travel was a side effect of FTL space travel, and was compared to deliberately doing a bad landing.) |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 4, 2020 8:13:28 GMT
Heh, Kat inisiting that sending the Tictoc back in time is impossible looks rather like a lady that protests too much. But yeah. There will be severe consequences if she fails to do exactly that. It's a heavy responsibility to be thrust upon a teenager. IF time travel is the solution, there will be no consequences because Annie was saved in the past, so in the future Kat will find a way to send the Tic-toc back.
If, like csj noted, there is no time travel involved but the bird rescue squad is just retroactively brought into existence because every faithful robot knows that the Angel created those to watch over them, the outcome remains the same. It's already happened. No question whether Kat will succeed or not because she already did. |
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Post by blahzor on Jun 4, 2020 8:20:13 GMT
I wonder if one or more Antimonies will become the correct one for this timeline once Kat does send Tocs back into the past to save her. Kinda thinking the answer is "yes." maybe they stay split until she does send the tic-tocs back b/c i think Lupe will die like Coyote says and he won't reverse the split b/c he'd find it funny |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 4, 2020 8:40:39 GMT
Should also add: Right now, it seems reasonable to believe the Antimony who fell still hasn't been saved. Some Antimony has been saved. Any Antimony who fell and wasn't saved, is dead. Any Antimony who didn't fall, didn't need saved (at least on that occasion - an Antimony has been saved on at least four other occasions, by Katrina, Coyote, Zimmy, and James - and I think I'm forgetting some). There's an Antimony (two of her actually) right there with Kat. Now what happens if Kat *doesn't* send that tic-toc into the past (multiple times, or first making several more of it), is anyone's guess, and I predict we won't find out. Although, hypothetically, maybe Kat won't do it but someone else will. (Wildspec: they free Coyote from Loup, and he does it. Hey, it would make at least as much sense as Kat figuring out how to do it. Being a newborn deity would be confusing enough in itself, without having to mess with time on the first day; Coyote has experience.) But as of this current time-slice Antimony hasn't been saved yet. Effect has preceded cause. Yes there are Antimonies present but they're not supposed to be. If that cause never gets supplied then this timeline will reset though it shouldn't have to until all possible causes become impossible and that won't necessarily happen during the course of this comic. And sure, there are other potential suppliers of sufficient cause than Kat. Temporal Affairs, "Loup" or Coyote, even the fabric of the Gunnerverse itself without any apparent agency might supply a cause. Caveat: From the perspective of the reader that means that no cause need be supplied, the comic would still make sense without a reset or collapse and how the Tocs got to the past could just remain an enduring mystery of the story. That said, I think continuity requires the cause even if it's never shown. And I think it'll probably be shown, which will bring the comic full-circle. I wonder if one or more Antimonies will become the correct one for this timeline once Kat does send Tocs back into the past to save her. Kinda thinking the answer is "yes." maybe they stay split until she does send the tic-tocs back b/c i think Lupe will die like Coyote says and he won't reverse the split b/c he'd find it funny I don't actually see a reason for the Antimonies to be unsplit. Not sure it's something that can be done non-destructively anyway. Of course if one is dependent on "Loup" for her existence then she'll start ceasing to exist when he stops supporting her unless she can wrest control of the fire from the other. |
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Post by migrantworker on Jun 4, 2020 13:53:58 GMT
Heh, Kat inisiting that sending the Tictoc back in time is impossible looks rather like a lady that protests too much. But yeah. There will be severe consequences if she fails to do exactly that. It's a heavy responsibility to be thrust upon a teenager. IF time travel is the solution, there will be no consequences because Annie was saved in the past, so in the future Kat will find a way to send the Tic-toc back.
If, like csj noted, there is no time travel involved but the bird rescue squad is just retroactively brought into existence because every faithful robot knows that the Angel created those to watch over them, the outcome remains the same. It's already happened. No question whether Kat will succeed or not because she already did. It looks like Kat is quite convinced the former option is a non-starter, and the latter did not occur to her. So from her own point of view, she is still very much between a rock and a hard place with no way out. And I note now that Kat does not explain why exactly bringing the Tictoc into the past is impossible. It may be achievable either with some new techonolgy or with robots' collective faith, but come at a personal cost which she finds unbearable. And since the Tictoc has in fact been brought into the past, she already knows that she will bear this cost at some point. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 4, 2020 16:58:06 GMT
Some Antimony has been saved. Any Antimony who fell and wasn't saved, is dead. Any Antimony who didn't fall, didn't need saved (at least on that occasion - an Antimony has been saved on at least four other occasions, by Katrina, Coyote, Zimmy, and James - and I think I'm forgetting some). There's an Antimony (two of her actually) right there with Kat. Now what happens if Kat *doesn't* send that tic-toc into the past (multiple times, or first making several more of it), is anyone's guess, and I predict we won't find out. Although, hypothetically, maybe Kat won't do it but someone else will. (Wildspec: they free Coyote from Loup, and he does it. Hey, it would make at least as much sense as Kat figuring out how to do it. Being a newborn deity would be confusing enough in itself, without having to mess with time on the first day; Coyote has experience.) But as of this current time-slice Antimony hasn't been saved yet. Effect has preceded cause. Yes there are Antimonies present but they're not supposed to be. If that cause never gets supplied then this timeline will reset though it shouldn't have to until all possible causes become impossible and that won't necessarily happen during the course of this comic.[...] Probably not, because the universe and time itself would have to end in order to thoroughly exclude any possibility. If retroactively changing the past - whether through time travel or power born from accumulated faith - is possible, there is no hurry. Maybe in ten thousand years some new chaos god will come into existence and decide to mess with the past just for fun. Or one of Kat's descendants will find her diary and notes and decide to finish what their ancestor tried to do. Or some time traveler comes from the future, sees Kat's futile attempts to send a goddamn bird robot into the past and decides to help her. Etc. etc. |
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Post by blahzor on Jun 4, 2020 17:26:28 GMT
also it might be Temporal Affairs won't get involved until right before Kat tries to send the tic-toc's back just like the contract people got involved right before Arthur was made alive
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Post by netherdan on Jun 4, 2020 22:48:59 GMT
I don't actually see a reason for the Antimonies to be unsplit. Not sure it's something that can be done non-destructively anyway. Of course if one is dependent on "Loup" for her existence then she'll start ceasing to exist when he stops supporting her unless she can wrest control of the fire from the other. There's also the possibility that Loup is the bond that ties her to this reality/dimension/timeline and as soon as he "dies" the correct Annie stays and the shifted one just "unshift" back to her desperate-robogoddess-now-turned-destruction-deity-ravaging-the-Court-and-the-Forest a.k.a. Kat |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 5, 2020 3:12:54 GMT
I don't actually see a reason for the Antimonies to be unsplit. Not sure it's something that can be done non-destructively anyway. Of course if one is dependent on "Loup" for her existence then she'll start ceasing to exist when he stops supporting her unless she can wrest control of the fire from the other. There's also the possibility that Loup is the bond that ties her to this reality/dimension/timeline and as soon as he "dies" the correct Annie stays and the shifted one just "unshift" back to her desperate-robogoddess-now-turned-destruction-deity-ravaging-the-Court-and-the-Forest a.k.a. Kat That may be indistinguishable from ceasing to exist from the perspective of everyone in this timeline (and possibly the readers unless we get a bonus chapter) unless Kat builds an interdimensional/chrono periscope or something, since alternate dimensions/timelines usually aren't unless created/needed. I suppose Kat, Coyote, or some other authority could assure her that she'll be reunited with her Kat (shortly before their timeline ends). If they send her off via a gate or the ether or something we may get a send-off like Jeanne had, though. |
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Post by wies on Jun 5, 2020 7:17:35 GMT
That was both a great and interesting explanation of timetravel, but I don't fully follow how clones of me would appear in all timelines that contain the same time and date. The other way to time-travel, would be basically doing the job of a radio broadcast antenna. In which case, you'd end up sending clones into the past and future, and alternate timelines, and across space and time. You would literally break the time line into a giant fractal. Sending clones of yourself, into the time line at planck-second intervals, and dropping clones everywhere across space. Some of these clones will wind up drifting in space, and eventually dying. Some of them will find themselves falling onto the surface of earth, or into the sun, or onto the moon, or some other planetary body. Some will find themselves in caves deep underground, some will arrive on the planet surface, some will appear in solid rock, or molten magma. Some might find half of their body fused into a tree or large animal. Or fused with a litter or swarm of smaller animals. Badly done time travel could be a horrible way to die. Each new timeline formed as a result of such a temporal incursion, would each only have one of you. but each of those new timelines, could also receive another time clone. Luckily each time you enter a timeline, it also creates a timeline that isn't touched. But that means a majority of timelines resulting from the incursion could have multiple time clones. a minority of timelines, would have either none of you ever arrive, and be completely normal. another minority of timelines, could have so many time clones arrive the entire universe would collapse into a giant black hole. The greater the temporal broadcast power, the further the wave function could travel and the more damaging the resulting temporal incursion would become. Huh, I think I know now how those people who dreamed of jetpacks felt like when they learned of the possible consequences. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 5, 2020 13:43:13 GMT
So this was yet another Coyote's trick. It is sort of odd that Coyote would remark on Antimony's cheek-scar but not mention that she was the subject of a temporal paradox. …unless Coyote did it himself and still waited for the payoff. |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 5, 2020 15:33:38 GMT
There's also the possibility that Loup is the bond that ties her to this reality/dimension/timeline and as soon as he "dies" the correct Annie stays and the shifted one just "unshift" back to her desperate-robogoddess-now-turned-destruction-deity-ravaging-the-Court-and-the-Forest a.k.a. Kat That may be indistinguishable from ceasing to exist from the perspective of everyone in this timeline (and possibly the readers unless we get a bonus chapter) unless Kat builds an interdimensional/chrono periscope or something, since alternate dimensions/timelines usually aren't unless created/needed. I suppose Kat, Coyote, or some other authority could assure her that she'll be reunited with her Kat (shortly before their timeline ends). If they send her off via a gate or the ether or something we may get a send-off like Jeanne had, though. If they get to have a send-off I sure hope Coyote help them by telling which one belongs where/when... But thinking about it, does it even matter which is who? I mean, both were split from the exact same background history and have been living in the same timeline (apart from the 6 months gap) so as far as history is concerned there is a timeline in which Annie ceased to exist and another which gained an extra Annie, but neither of them belong in the former. On another thought, can we be sure that more than 6 months had already passed after the "split"? I'm thinking about the possibility that there's no alternate timeline involved and at some point Loup will snatch Court Annie from the future to become Forest Annie in the past and this is all just a time loop containing a single Annie interacting with herself. At that point the remaining Annie might regain all the memories erased upon her abduction and no character development is lost. Plus it makes for a cool contrast with Loup's "Neither" chapter, Annie's unification chapter might even be called "Both" PS: I'm aware that some people don't want an Annie merge chapter at all, and while I do agree that it's nice having both, this single timeline loop route is currently the only way I could think of for this time travel conundrum de resolved without branching the story into an HQ multiverse extravaganza |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 5, 2020 15:59:21 GMT
PS: I'm aware that some people don't want an Annie merge chapter at all, and while I do agree that it's nice having both, this single timeline loop route is currently the only way I could think of for this time travel conundrum de resolved without branching the story into an HQ multiverse extravaganza Just keep them both and have Temporal Affairs delete the other timeline. |
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Kuraimizu
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Post by Kuraimizu on Jun 5, 2020 18:41:54 GMT
To those interested I have re-drawn My Temporal Map, depicting what happens to the timeline with one event of time travel to the past, and a return trip to the future. Temporal-map-01-past |
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