[2155] "Oh right, the jail thing."

[imaginaryfriend]

The user of the arrow needing to be held accountable seems to be a sticking point.

Comic's up early tonight, by the way.

[madjack]

Totally nabbing panel 5 for an Av.

Anyway. Positive result + helping people = Happy Kat, prison be damned.

[Futurismo]

Turns out Kat was just too excited about Arthur successfully becoming a living being to think about going to jail. She still doesn't seem too fazed, though; I guess she's just the type to think her way out of these situations and stress out later.

Okay, trying to wrap my head around this. So, Kat and Juliet have made Arthur into a living being. Had Arthur still been considered just another object that could be owned, he wouldn't have counted as someone that could own Annie's stuffed toy. Now that he's recognized by the ether as a new, living creature, with presumably some connection to the ether, it is possible for him to have a contract of ownership of an object. Kat had previously used the Arrow as a proxy to transfer her contract of ownership of Rey's stuffed toy body back to Annie. When Kat awakened Arthur, she also accidentally, because the Arrow can negate contracts of ownership-- in this case, Annie's--, was about to force a transfer of Annie's contract of ownership to Arthur, without Annie's permission. This was not only thought to be straight up impossible but seems to be considered to be an offense that must be punished by the Arbiter in these matters of contracts of ownership, Saslamel. After learning of the situation, Kat explains that she never intended to manipulate any claims of ownership but as the owner of the Arrow, she is still being held accountable, not just because of what she was about to do to Annie's contract but also because of the threat the arrow poses since it can force contracts on living beings-- as we probably saw with Jeanne. However, since the process was interrupted before Kat could unwittingly transfer the contract, she's now asking if she can make a claim for a different one instead to avoid this legal conflict. I'm not 100% on the last part of this summary but it's becoming more clear as we get more of the chapter to re-read.

Previous posters in last page's thread have made a very good point that the Interpreter and presumably the Arbiter are very set on this "punishment"; perhaps not to actually throw her in jail but to goad Kat towards making a certain decision-- making a particular new contract, I think.

[imaginaryfriend]

This may be controversial but despite what the translator says in #2150 I think the breach of the contract had already happened (when Kat returned Renard) in some sense but was irrelevant until Art was about to become a living being. Oddly enough, Antimony being shifted doesn't seem to present a problem for the same simple contract.

[Futurismo]

May 31, 2019 7:53:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

This may be controversial but despite what the translator says in #2150 I think the breach of the contract had already happened (when Kat returned Renard) in some sense but was irrelevant until Art was about to become a living being. Oddly enough, Antimony being shifted doesn't seem to present a problem for the same simple contract.

It's possible that Kat had breached the contract at that time and nothing was noticed because Kat rightfully had ownership of the stuffed toy and properly gave up claim of it to Annie. Now however, Kat accidentally forced someone else's ownership of an object onto a third person without ever getting permission.

Really though, impossible though it might have been thought to be, I can't help but feel as though the Arbiter is cracking down on Kat primarily because of the threat of the Arrow forcing a contract on a living being.

Maybe he's pushing for Kat to negotiate a new deal that will benefit her but also force her to work for/with the ownership contractors so that her actions can be more closely monitored?

[imaginaryfriend]

Maybe it would be better to say that Kat damaged the contract of ownership when she used her system (and the arrow) to transfer it back to Antimony and by some virtue of using the system to transfer Art now he gets ownership of Renard by default. It would help if I knew that the same thing would happen again, all else held equal (or in other words, if Kat brings another body to life with the mind of a golem using the same system without making any changes, that being would either be a competing or co-owner of Renard).

But yeah, I think it's clear they want Kat to renounce/give them ownership of the arrow. Not only is it destructive and messy for their work, she could use it to attack them directly.

[oneandoneis2]

My guess is that the problem gets solved by destroying the arrow, so Kat ceases to be its owner.. but it seems a bit of a crude way out

[MarineMonarch]

Thinking about it, this isn't the first time Kat's been more caught up in her work than the actual situation around her. Nor the first time she's been kinda irreverent to etheric beings.

Still, I emphasise with her here - this is final confirmation that Kat (and Juliette) have actually managed to create something that's considered an etherically living being! In perhaps typical fashion for this comic it's being caught up in about 6 levels of bureaucracy to undercut the excitement of it, but I'm excited for her.

[rafk]

I hope this moves on quickly. Magical rules lawyering always sucks as a storyline because it is all made up and arbitrary. Erfworld went down the tubes at a rate of knots when the entire story became about rules lawyering magical contracts.

Finding out what our ghost buddy here knows about the Annies' situation is way more interesting.

[theonethatgotaway]

what if she gifts the arrow to Arthur and as such puts him in ownership of his own soul/body?

[bicarbonat]

May 31, 2019 8:53:35 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

what if she gifts the arrow to Arthur and as such puts him in ownership of his own soul/body?

Then I expect Arthur will soon be receiving the over-kind attentions of Arbiter Saslamel and his "translator", for some new trumped-up reason. I think the arbiter (and whoever they work for/with) definitely want that arrow to be firmly within their purview.

[jda]

Unexpected turn of events: Renard dies/leaves the story as we know it.

Reason: the only way out of this is Annie's dissolving the original contract, i.e. freeing Renard, BUT then, he could not inhabit the stuffed toy because (ownership?) reasons, so he is forced to leave, and his other reasonable escape pod/body to transfer would be... Arthur's new body, which he heroically rejects, dissolving in the ether/other way.

[todd]

May 31, 2019 8:23:17 GMT MarineMonarch said:

Thinking about it, this isn't the first time Kat's been more caught up in her work than the actual situation around her.

Kat's action with the arrow that led to this trouble comes close to qualifying; as I mentioned before, it wasn't necessary to use the arrow to return ownership of Reynardine to Annie - Annie had successfully transfered ownership to Kat without the arrow or any other such objects - but Kat's curiosity about the arrow and how it worked got the better of her. And she's now facing the consequences.

[Corvo]

So there is this fabricated body, and someone owns it, and that is fine. Then, through etheric means, a consciousness is put in this body and it becomes alive, and that is fine too. "But not in your case, miss Donlan!" ?? Honestly, I don't see the difference between Rey and Arthur's cases.

At this point, I'm just expecting Kat to poke the arrow through Saslamel's eye and start ordering him around.

[todd]

May 31, 2019 8:28:10 GMT rafk said:

I hope this moves on quickly. Magical rules lawyering always sucks as a storyline because it is all made up and arbitrary. Erfworld went down the tubes at a rate of knots when the entire story became about rules lawyering magical contracts.

Finding out what our ghost buddy here knows about the Annies' situation is way more interesting.

"Gunnerkrigg Court" does show a tendency towards "The Way Etheric Things Work" - not enough to feel like a philosophical tract disguised as a story (most of the time), but enough to ensure many of these kinds of scenes.

[ohthatone]

May 31, 2019 7:53:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

...Oddly enough, Antimony being shifted doesn't seem to present a problem for the same simple contract.

I suspect Annie being shifted is just technically enough okay so that Clippy/Saslamel don't have to deal with Loup, as interesting a conversation as that would be.

[seedmagnesium]

> [Kat was] about to transfer [Annies'] contract of ownership of [Renard] to a new creature.

Does "new" mean newly created, or newly involved in the contract?

> mindless body (previous page)

Bodies can exist without minds. This appears to be a living body even without a mind, in contrast to "non-living objects", which include golems/robots.

> mind of a golem

So golems/robots can have minds.

> use the contract on a living mind, which is not acceptable

It appears that a "living mind" is granted special protections given to neither a "non-living object" with a mind, nor a living body without a mind, on their own. That's a pretty important point: the body a mind inhabits affects that mind's legal standing, even though we think of Arthur's identity persisting when he transferred between different robot bodies. Same goes for Snuffle.

I think Rey would count as a golem: he inhabits a "non-living object" which "fall under the rules of ownership", in this case by Annie. As 'landlady', she defines the terms of his 'lease' including his inability to 'move out'. This is a "single-use contract", meaning only one person can own the object at a time. That's why it would have been a problem is Annie had been two sisters, but being one "shifted" person is okay. This is the "multi-use conflict" that is the arbiter's first problem.

> using the arrow would allow you to use the contract on a living mind, which is not acceptable

Since "non-living objects [can] fall under the rules of ownership", it seems that "living minds"s are not the owned, they are the owners. "Use ... on" is ambiguous but I think it means to apply (or attempt to apply) a contract of ownership where a "living mind" is being owned. But, Arthur was going to be the new owner, not the new owned object, so this part isn't making much sense yet.

None of those quotes come from today's page but I guess Kat's rephrasing in panel 2 and the interpreter's confirmation helped spur this analysis.

[ohthatone]

and Lo, Kat sat through days of contract binding and legalese and thus her jail time was completed.

[gpvos]

May 31, 2019 12:34:41 GMT jda said:

Unexpected turn of events: Renard dies/leaves the story as we know it.

Reason: the only way out of this is Annie's dissolving the original contract, i.e. freeing Renard, BUT then, he could not inhabit the stuffed toy because (ownership?) reasons, so he is forced to leave, and his other reasonable escape pod/body to transfer would be... Arthur's new body, which he heroically rejects, dissolving in the ether/other way.

Well, there is a spare Annie now... (Ewww.)

[saardvark]

OK, so Im a bit confused... Kat uses the arrow as a conduit to pass Rey's control/ownership to Annie. That works, no problem, no Saslamel objection. But now, Kat (apparently) passed Arthur's mind into his new body, again using the arrow conduit (or arrow-based tech). This somehow broke two rules - copying.a single use contract for use In a multi-use "conflict" plus misuse of contract on a mind.
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2154
Mind -> Arthur would seem to also be single-use, but not the same sort of thing... its mind transfer, not ownership transfer. Unless, by using the arrow, Kat was trying also to transfer the Court's etheric ownership of Arthur to himself. That would make sense from Kat's point of view. But somehow, this was also going to transfer Rey's ownership to Arthur. Maaaaybe....
maybe the arrow is like an etheric ownership sponge. It retains some residual ownership of anything it touches. Perhaps it owned the Green guy in some sense, and that fixed him to the spot and Jeanne's heart (and spirit) with him, until freed by Annie. It absorbed part ownership of Rey when his ownership transfer went thru it. Now when Arthur's mind is transferred thru it, his mind picks up some of the control of Rey in the process. Which causes all sorts of problems... (1) makes Rey now owned by two people - Arthur and Annie (multi-use) OR maybe its just that Kat used the arrow/contract absorber twice (multi-use). (2) alters Rey's ownership against.the owner's (Annie's) will. (3) makes the arrow part owner of Arthur(?) or Arthur's mind, or maybe the problem is just changing ownership of a mind of a LIVING (since Arthur's body is now) thing(?) ... is another issue. Maybe?

EDIT: seedmagnesium has some similar thoughts above, which I didn't see before posting this...  also clarified some things a bit.

[ctso74]

May 31, 2019 7:04:52 GMT madjack said:

Totally nabbing panel 5 for an Av.

Anyway. Positive result + helping people = Happy Kat, prison be damned.

Honestly, her chain gang would probably be the most fun.


For some reason, an unfortunate wildspec vision just popped into my head. They get everything settled, Arthur comes out of the chamber for a beautiful embrace of Juliette, then starts to die. Kat didn't take 'something' into account, and he quickly dies in a crying Juliette's arms. Kat says she's sorry to Arthur. He looks up to Juliette, wipes away own of her tears, and says "Oh my... it was worth it", and takes that into the Ether to cause who knows what. As always, Robot watches from the background.
I really rather hope that's not it. I think Juliette and Arthur deserve a happy ending, off into the sunset.

[DonDueed]

May 31, 2019 14:11:45 GMT ctso74 said:

For some reason, an unfortunate wildspec vision just popped into my head. They get everything settled, Arthur comes out of the chamber for a beautiful embrace of Juliette, then starts to die. Kat didn't take 'something' into account, and he quickly dies in a crying Juliette's arms. Kat says she's sorry to Arthur. He looks up to Juliette, wipes away own of her tears, and says "Oh my... it was worth it", and takes that into the Ether to cause who knows what. As always, Robot watches from the background.
I really rather hope that's not it. I think Juliette and Arthur deserve a happy ending, off into the sunset.

Or... the transfer works, but Saslamel's interference draws the Court's attention, so Arthur and Juliette wind up in Court court, possibly in Court prison.  The best-laid plans...

[tustin2121]

Next page: Interpreter: "WHAAAAT?! No one's EVER asked for a new contract before!!! UNTHINKABLE!!!! To DOUBLE JAIL with you!!"

May 31, 2019 12:34:41 GMT jda said:

Unexpected turn of events: Renard dies/leaves the story as we know it.

Reason: the only way out of this is Annie's dissolving the original contract, i.e. freeing Renard, BUT then, he could not inhabit the stuffed toy because (ownership?) reasons, so he is forced to leave, and his other reasonable escape pod/body to transfer would be... Arthur's new body, which he heroically rejects, dissolving in the ether/other way.

No such "reasons" have been given previously that would cause such a situation. The only rules we've been given to his body snatching ability is that it has to have eyes.

However, Annie could well still dissolve the original contract pretty easily by, say, giving Renard ownership of the stuffed toy that is currently his body. Or hell, give ownership back to Kat.

May 31, 2019 12:41:22 GMT Corvo said:

So there is this fabricated body, and someone owns it, and that is fine. Then, through etheric means, a consciousness is put in this body and it becomes alive, and that is fine too. "But not in your case, miss Donlan!" ?? Honestly, I don't see the difference between Rey and Arthur's cases.

I think the only thing Kat tripped up on here was the inadvertent transfer of ownership of Rey to Arthur. It is pretty weird that apparently one can own a body that is not their own and this doesn't break these etheric ownership rules, somehow. (Which means that my contention a couple page threads back that slavery is impossible under these laws is wrong.) Does this mean that all the fairy kids with their bodies made by the court don't actually own their own bodies (until, presumably, maybe, they get their names)?

PS: Do you always put title tags on your text that likely no one will see unless they quote it?

[pyradonis]

May 31, 2019 12:34:41 GMT jda said:

Unexpected turn of events: Renard dies/leaves the story as we know it.

Reason: the only way out of this is Annie's dissolving the original contract, i.e. freeing Renard, BUT then, he could not inhabit the stuffed toy because (ownership?) reasons, so he is forced to leave, and his other reasonable escape pod/body to transfer would be... Arthur's new body, which he heroically rejects, dissolving in the ether/other way.

Draw a pair of eyes onto any object -> Rey can inhabit it -> problem solved.

[gpvos]

May 31, 2019 15:29:05 GMT pyradonis said:

Draw a pair of eyes onto any object -> Rey can inhabit it -> problem solved.

Rey inhabiting the King of Robots? I'd like to see that.

[crater]

oh no how will Kat deal with authority?
Kat probably feels pretty safe at-least subconsciously, knowing she had powerful friends.
but it will be interesting to see how quickly she comes to the conclusion of "catch me if you can, copper!"

[Gemini Jim]

Make an illegal U-turn at 3 a.m. when nobody is around - no harm, no foul.

Make an illegal U-turn during rush hour, against on-coming traffic - you might get in trouble.


Kat's little bit of Frankensteining Arthur might have gotten the etheric cops' attention.

[tustin2121]

May 31, 2019 16:34:49 GMT gpvos said:

May 31, 2019 15:29:05 GMT pyradonis said:

Draw a pair of eyes onto any object -> Rey can inhabit it -> problem solved.

Rey inhabiting the King of Robots? I'd like to see that.

Bonus: since the robots aren't technically alive in the first place (by etheric standards), when Rey leaves the King of Robots, the King will probably be perfectly fine!

PS: Now I feel the need to hover my mouse over everyone's text, since you're doing the title text thing too now...

[imaginaryfriend]

May 31, 2019 13:29:36 GMT ohthatone said:

May 31, 2019 7:53:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

...Oddly enough, Antimony being shifted doesn't seem to present a problem for the same simple contract.

I suspect Annie being shifted is just technically enough okay so that Clippy/Saslamel don't have to deal with Loup, as interesting a conversation as that would be.

It may be the case that as far as this bureaucracy is concerned Antimony = Antimony so having Antimony² binding Renard's actions is fine, or it's fine until/unless they both start yelling directly contradictory orders at him at the same time.  Or maybe it's fine because the problem wasn't with the contract but with Antimony; her identity (what it means to be Antimony) has arguably been damaged by getting shifted.  But also "Loup" may have a loophole in that he is a god.  People can get mad when other people take or modify their stuff in bizarre should-be-impossible ways but the system isn't designed to protect people's rights at all, it's more about fulfilling their expectations to keep the ether flowing (with more emphasis on the former than the latter) and it certainly isn't about doing battle with gods.  The (lowercase "g") gods are expected to do all sorts of loony and impossible stuff from time to time and by doing so keep the humans believing and the ether flowing, which keeps the world of the etheric denizens turning.  If Kat can claim to be a god (or a nascent god) that what she's doing should be fine.  And if she can use her system to bind these two jabronis by just saying the word then she might be able to make a convincing claim.  See also: "fake it 'till you make it" and "if someone asks if you're a god you say YES"

[todd]

May 31, 2019 14:33:23 GMT tustin2121 said:

However, Annie could well still dissolve the original contract pretty easily by, say, giving Renard ownership of the stuffed toy that is currently his body.

Presumably followed by fresh panic from the Court (as soon as it finds out about this) because Renard no longer has any restraints and is free to start body-hopping through the Court's population and wipe out almost everyone (we know he wouldn't do it, but the Court expects the worst from him).