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Post by todd on Jun 1, 2019 0:24:41 GMT
If Kat can claim to be a god (or a nascent god) that what she's doing should be fine. Except Kat has no reason to do so; she doesn't know enough about the robot religion to make such a claim. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 1, 2019 0:31:59 GMT
If Kat can claim to be a god (or a nascent god) that what she's doing should be fine. Except Kat has no reason to do so; she doesn't know enough about the robot religion to make such a claim. The arbitrator(s) may use it as an out since they've sort of painted themselves into a corner by saying that the user of the arrow must be held accountable. Maybe that is just a hardball bargaining position to get the arrow but if they mean it they are unlikely to resolve things amicably. If Kat's system is able to bind them then they may offer the label of god in return for the arrow; that preserves the system and Kat doesn't have to do time. She probably meets some of the criteria now that she's bringing Art to life anyway. |
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Post by warrl on Jun 1, 2019 3:46:28 GMT
Unexpected turn of events: Renard dies/leaves the story as we know it. Reason: the only way out of this is Annie's dissolving the original contract, i.e. freeing Renard Oh, hardly. 2. Annie gives Renard to Kat. 3. Annie gives Renard to Arthur. 4. Kat says "Okay, how do I make that transfer not happen, while still finishing this project with Arthur?" And I'm sure there are more. |
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 1, 2019 4:28:48 GMT
Still thinking about this "jail" and "punishment" business. In many jurisdictions, police can arrest a person on suspicion of public intoxication (although usually it's pretty obvious) and toss her into the infamous "drunk tank" (which is part of the jail, not prison) to "sleep it off" and sober up. This can be done without taking the extra step of hauling the person to court.
Perhaps they think Kat is drunk with power.
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 1, 2019 8:57:01 GMT
Rey inhabiting the King of Robots? I'd like to see that. Bonus: since the robots aren't technically alive in the first place (by etheric standards), when Rey leaves the King of Robots, the King will probably be perfectly fine! PS: Now I feel the need to hover my mouse over everyone's text, since you're doing the title text thing too now...Right. For an even easier way out of the current situation, Renard could just take Arthur's old body. |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 1, 2019 11:39:04 GMT
This may be controversial but despite what the translator says in #2150 I think the breach of the contract had already happened (when Kat returned Renard) in some sense but was irrelevant until Art was about to become a living being. Oddly enough, Antimony being shifted doesn't seem to present a problem for the same simple contract. Maybe the Rey return didn't break a contract because Kat returned an OBJECT - Rey was in it, yes, but that was his choice. He could (in principle, if Annie permits it) leave if he wants... though of course he'd have to find something new with eyes.to possess immediately. Annie being shifted doesnt break dual-use because both are really Annie, apparently. Maybe! |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 1, 2019 12:04:04 GMT
Unexpected turn of events: Renard dies/leaves the story as we know it. Reason: the only way out of this is Annie's dissolving the original contract, i.e. freeing Renard, BUT then, he could not inhabit the stuffed toy because (ownership?) reasons, so he is forced to leave, and his other reasonable escape pod/body to transfer would be... Arthur's new body, which he heroically rejects, dissolving in the ether/other way. Draw a pair of eyes onto any object -> Rey can inhabit it -> problem solved. They'd have to do it fast, so they wouldn't have much to choose from... and aside from Kat's equipment, there doesnt seem to be much in the huge room. They'd want something that could move around if animated by Rey.... Kat would say: "Robot, quick, run to your house and grab the first movable object you find!" while she looked for a marking pen, and Robot comes back with... a pair of roller skates? a wheeled mop bucket? a toy truck? a beach ball? The new Rey is... ? |
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 1, 2019 12:47:23 GMT
2. Annie gives Renard to Kat. 3. Annie gives Renard to Arthur. Well, that raises some interesting conundrums. If fAnnie gives the Rey-toy to someone else, does cAnnie still own the toy? Or does it now belong to that other person and neither Annie can order him around? Or do cAnnie and the third party both have order-around rights, as both Annies now seem to?
Perhaps that comes down to the meaning of "shifted". Is it like a spawned process, where all of original-Annie's characteristics are duplicated? Doesn't that imply a breakdown of ownership rights, since they're no longer one-to-one?
Since Clippy seems comfortable with the "shift" concept, it seems likely that there are answers to these issues. For now, though, it all feels pretty ad hoc.
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 1, 2019 17:51:55 GMT
Draw a pair of eyes onto any object -> Rey can inhabit it -> problem solved. They'd have to do it fast, so they wouldn't have much to choose from... and aside from Kat's equipment, there doesnt seem to be much in the huge room. They'd want something that could move around if animated by Rey.... Kat would say: "Robot, quick, run to your house and grab the first movable object you find!" while she looked for a marking pen, and Robot comes back with... a pair of roller skates? a wheeled mop bucket? a toy truck? a beach ball? The new Rey is... ? Probably even easier: a robot body. Rey can inhabit robots without destroying their consciousness. Or Kat can quickly manufacture some simple body, like the mouse the used for Robot. If she does not to use Arthur's body, or one of the old golem bodies she has in her cloud storage. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jun 1, 2019 20:43:44 GMT
Draw a pair of eyes onto any object -> Rey can inhabit it -> problem solved. They'd have to do it fast, so they wouldn't have much to choose from... and aside from Kat's equipment, there doesnt seem to be much in the huge room. They'd want something that could move around if animated by Rey.... Kat would say: "Robot, quick, run to your house and grab the first movable object you find!" while she looked for a marking pen, and Robot comes back with... a pair of roller skates? a wheeled mop bucket? a toy truck? a beach ball? The new Rey is... ? I am SO READY for the inevitable new Beach Ball Rey. Beach Ball Rey will be be the new Puppy Renard, with his own bonus page. |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 1, 2019 23:48:11 GMT
They'd have to do it fast, so they wouldn't have much to choose from... and aside from Kat's equipment, there doesnt seem to be much in the huge room. They'd want something that could move around if animated by Rey.... Kat would say: "Robot, quick, run to your house and grab the first movable object you find!" while she looked for a marking pen, and Robot comes back with... a pair of roller skates? a wheeled mop bucket? a toy truck? a beach ball? The new Rey is... ? I am SO READY for the inevitable new Beach Ball Rey. Beach Ball Rey will be be the new Puppy Renard, with his own bonus page. I was imagining him bouncing around with a silly fixed grin... like if the "rover" from that old TV show "the Prisoner" had a smiley face drawn on it... |
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Post by todd on Jun 2, 2019 0:12:36 GMT
All of this is assuming that Reynardine will have to leave his "stuffed wolf" body, which nobody in the story has as yet suggested.
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Post by mturtle7 on Jun 2, 2019 7:25:04 GMT
All of this is assuming that Reynardine will have to leave his "stuffed wolf" body, which nobody in the story has as yet suggested. Hahaha, don't worry, I don't actually think that'll happen either. This whole conversation sprang from jda's "unexpected turn of events:" post, so I kind of presumed that it was all going to be pretty non-serious Wildspec. Hopefully it is not a heart-rending betrayal for everyone if I admit that I am not in full support of Beach Ball Rey as a canon turn of events in the comic, for instance.
If you want my serious opinion, I don't actually know exactly what consequences the gang will face here, but I'm think it's safe to predict that no permanent incarceration or mind-body separation will be involved. Rey's not going to leave his old body, Arthur will get his new body (and the non-golem status it entails), and of course Kat is not actually going to be stuck in jail for the rest of the comic. Actual consequences may include the confiscation and/or destruction of the Arrow, Kat losing status/trustworthiness in the eyes of some Etheric Bureaucracy, or maybe even Kat getting temporarily jailed while Annie has to figure out a way to get her out (possibly with the help of the psychopomps or the ROTD).
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Aura
Junior Member
I'm a ninja!
Posts: 79
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Post by Aura on Jun 2, 2019 8:29:47 GMT
Ah, Gunnerkrigg Court. The place you go when you want a refresher on contract law.
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Post by gpvos on Jun 2, 2019 11:30:36 GMT
Comic's up early tonight, by the way. That's very strange, I'm pretty sure it has always be posted automatically on a timer. How much earlier? Maybe the time on the server is just off by a couple seconds. |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 2, 2019 21:52:49 GMT
> using the arrow would allow you to use the contract on a living mind, which is not acceptable Since "non-living objects [can] fall under the rules of ownership", it seems that "living minds"s are not the owned, they are the owners. "Use ... on" is ambiguous but I think it means to apply (or attempt to apply) a contract of ownership where a "living mind" is being owned. But, Arthur was going to be the new owner, not the new owned object, so this part isn't making much sense yet. I think Kat was intending for Arthur to be the Owner AND the Owned parts of the contract, but that's not what she got from it. Living minds cannot be owned in a etheric sense (you cannot govern over someone else's every will and action), so the problem here is that Kat tried to give Arthur free will but she didn't understand the contract rules entirely and thought she was making a new one (or a copy) but what she did was "replace some variable values" (as some nerdheories suggested) in the original contract (not a copy) and booped up somewhere so that Annie would have ownership over Arthur while he was in a living mind state (and not a golem state). A secondary problem I can see here is that even if Kat hadn't tried to free Arthur from the Court ownership by slapping another ownership contract over the Court's, she would still cause a conflict since by making Arthur a living mind while he was owned by the Court would cause the same breach (living mind being owned), so this is something she HAD to do (even if she didn't know). Then a tertiary¹ problem would be overriding the Court contract over Arthur, another breach of contract unless an official Court staff was present as a representative of this multi-use contract and willing for Arthur to have free will by resigning his ownership (Juliette) Rey inhabiting the King of Robots? I'd like to see that. Bonus: since the robots aren't technically alive in the first place (by etheric standards), when Rey leaves the King of Robots, the King will probably be perfectly fine! PS: Now I feel the need to hover my mouse over everyone's text, since you're doing the title text thing too now...Wait, but what if Robot King feels the need to express some emotion that needs an eye redrawing? |
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Post by warrl on Jun 3, 2019 1:31:47 GMT
The stated problem was that Kat was about to transfer ownership of Reynardine from Annie(s) to Arthur, without Annie(s)'s permission.
They're perfectly fine with the Court keeping ownership of Arthur's robot body after he moves out of it - and if living beings can't be owned except through their own actions (e.g. Rey moving into Annie's doll) and Arthur qualifies as a living being then there's no problem with Arthur moving out of that body.
There could be a problem with the ownership of Arthur's new body - but it was made with the intent of giving it to him, so that will be easily gotten past.
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 3, 2019 2:15:35 GMT
I'm starting to wonder whether these ownership contracts are the reason that Rey can't possess a person without causing their death.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 3, 2019 2:24:47 GMT
Comic's up early tonight, by the way. That's very strange, I'm pretty sure it has always be posted automatically on a timer. How much earlier? Maybe the time on the server is just off by a couple seconds. It showed up for me around 2:58 local so by somewhere between one minute and three minutes. |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 3, 2019 2:30:23 GMT
The stated problem was that Kat was about to transfer ownership of Reynardine from Annie(s) to Arthur, without Annie(s)'s permission. Oh no, the problem was, specifically, that "Kat" was about to transfer Annie's "contract of ownership" of Reynard's body to "Arthur". It wasn't stated that Reynard's ownership was being transferred, just the contract. It's as if Kat were trying to take a signed and recognized contract, erasing the names on it and writing new ones to make it "legal". This would effectively erase any "proof of ownership" Annie has over the toy wolf and create a counterfeit contract for Arthur (over himself?), and that wouldn't work... Errors across the board. I may not be right on this, but this is a good exercise on how the wording can be warped to mean something else and why you have to be careful when dealing in legalese I'm starting to wonder whether these ownership contracts are the reason that Rey can't possess a person without causing their death. And why Coyote's given powers are flawed (they're rule breaking powers, presumably godly powers, being used by non gods) |
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Post by gpvos on Jun 3, 2019 2:40:18 GMT
That's very strange, I'm pretty sure it has always be posted automatically on a timer. How much earlier? Maybe the time on the server is just off by a couple seconds. It showed up for me around 2:58 local so by somewhere between one minute and three minutes. Okay, so it's just that the server lost its network time synchronization (probably for some time already). Would creating an early thread attract Tom's attention? :-) |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 3, 2019 2:52:54 GMT
The stated problem was that Kat was about to transfer ownership of Reynardine from Annie(s) to Arthur, without Annie(s)'s permission. Oh no, the problem was, specifically, that "Kat" was about to transfer Annie's "contract of ownership" of Reynard's body to "Arthur". It wasn't stated that Reynard's ownership was being transferred, just the contract. It's as if Kat were trying to take a signed and recognized contract, erasing the names on it and writing new ones to make it "legal". This would effectively erase any "proof of ownership" Annie has over the toy wolf and create a counterfeit contract for Arthur (over himself?), and that wouldn't work... Errors across the board. I may not be right on this, but this is a good exercise on how the wording can be warped to mean something else and why you have to be careful when dealing in legalese It might erase Annie's proof of ownership of Rey, but it wouldn't necessarily assign it to Arthur. Kat wasn't trying to do anything with Rey at all at this point. But she had previously transferred Rey to Annie thru the arrow. One way her transfer of Arthur's mind to his body could affect Rey would be if somehow she hadn't quite erased the previous contract completely when she (via the arrow) reused the Rey ownership contract to transfer Arthur's mind to new body (and his ownership by the Court to himself?). So she inadvertently both transferred Arthur's ownership AND Reys's. Is this what is meant by a multi-use contract, a second use of the single use contract between Rey and Annie? And/or multiple use, transfe of Arthur's ownership and Rey's (by accident)? |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 3, 2019 3:40:49 GMT
Is this what is meant by a multi-use contract, a second use of the single use contract between Rey and Annie? And/or multiple use, transfe of Arthur's ownership and Rey's (by accident)? I thought that by now everyone had head canoned that a multi-use contract was just a many-to-one relationship on the contract table. Oh well... |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 3, 2019 9:32:20 GMT
Is this what is meant by a multi-use contract, a second use of the single use contract between Rey and Annie? And/or multiple use, transfe of Arthur's ownership and Rey's (by accident)? I thought that by now everyone had head canoned that a multi-use contract was just a many-to-one relationship on the contract table. Oh well... In that case then the multi-use could be ownership of Arthur by the Court and (now) himself, AND ownership of Rey, both by (now) Arthur and the (shifted) Annies. That probably makes more sense, but I point out the other as a possibility too. I think the rest of the idea still holds.... reuse of the base contract led to the accidental ownership transfer of Rey as well. |
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Post by todd on Jun 3, 2019 12:43:32 GMT
I think we're overstating the situation; Kat was not (as far as we can tell) thinking in terms of ownership when she was about to transfer Arthur's consciousness to a new body - had probably even forgotten all about (unwisely) using the arrow to monitor her transfer of Rey back to Annie. All this talk of ownership was initiated by the newcomers.
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Post by eliakon on Jun 3, 2019 23:41:49 GMT
Am I the only one concerned by the fact that Arthur is now alive?
Back when they were transferring the Rabbit Coyote told Annie that even with all his power he was unable to actually create life, just move it around.
But here Kat just created a living mind out of nothing... meaning she just did something that was beyond the power of Coyote to accomplish.
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Post by saardvark on Jun 4, 2019 0:43:12 GMT
Am I the only one concerned by the fact that Arthur is now alive? Back when they were transferring the Rabbit Coyote told Annie that even with all his power he was unable to actually create life, just move it around. But here Kat just created a living mind out of nothing... meaning she just did something that was beyond the power of Coyote to accomplish. I think she transferred Arthur's robot mind into an organic brain that Juliette cooked up... so the mind in some sense existed already, it was just moved from a mechanical to an organic vessel. |
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 4, 2019 4:48:48 GMT
Is this what is meant by a multi-use contract, a second use of the single use contract between Rey and Annie? And/or multiple use, transfe of Arthur's ownership and Rey's (by accident)? I thought that by now everyone had head canoned that a multi-use contract was just a many-to-one relationship on the contract table. Oh well... No, that's a multi-party contract. Multi-use would be, as saardvark said, reusing the same contract in a different situation. |
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Post by eliakon on Jun 28, 2019 2:59:13 GMT
Am I the only one concerned by the fact that Arthur is now alive? Back when they were transferring the Rabbit Coyote told Annie that even with all his power he was unable to actually create life, just move it around. But here Kat just created a living mind out of nothing... meaning she just did something that was beyond the power of Coyote to accomplish. I think she transferred Arthur's robot mind into an organic brain that Juliette cooked up... so the mind in some sense existed already, it was just moved from a mechanical to an organic vessel. Except that the robots *aren't* alive. We know this because the way the rules work for them. And now Arthur *is* alive. More Kat was asking for clarification that he was now alive... So she understood that he wasn't alive before and is now. I am wondering if the reason that the high level celestial bureaucracy showed up for her actions but have not showed up for anyone else... are a jurisdictional one... Aka she is suddenly now working in a *much* higher level of "the celestial bureaucracy" for want of a better term. |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 28, 2019 11:24:54 GMT
Ah! From "living mind", I was focusing on the word "mind" and you on "living". Well, we have two somewhat similar situations: the Court makes bodies that Coyote can transfer fairy minds into. This isn't considered "creating life" somehow, because the mind already existed. Here, Kat made the body and Juliette the brain (sans mind) of new-Arthur. Kat transfers Arthur's robot mind into the new-Arthur body and now something not alive (robot) now is. It would seem transferring a mind from an inorganic to an organic vessel is the difference. The mind already existed in both cases; putting it in an organic vessel is now. by GC runes considered "creating life" I guess. That would seem to be rather "godly" of Kat....
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