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Post by sarahsyna on Oct 28, 2017 14:32:16 GMT
There's not even a hint that she ever brought it up to Eglamore though, which, if it was something bad enough to facilitate a breakup, she would have. This honestly looks like the first time he's even hearing it, which really just makes her look even worse. We also have no hints whatsoever that James was a good boyfriend. We just know that at one point, they liked each other. Unless we somehow force Tom to show every moment of the relationship, we have to trust the author to show us representative moments that lead to the current flashback. That means when we see Surma complain to Anja about James being away so much, that if that continues, Surma will have a problem with it. Likewise with her resentment of Jones, we are shown these things to give context to the eventual breakdown of the relationship. Likewise, the current argument we are in the middle of is supposed to be something from which we can infer the general state of the relationship before. If James were to say something like, "Why didn't you tell me you felt that way?", we would conclude that Surma was unfairly bottling up her dissatisfaction. If he says, "I know it was hard on you, but I thought we could make it work." Then we conclude that he wasn't taking her seriously when she tried to bring it up. We also have no indication that Eglamore was a bad boyfriend. Though in fact, we do have some signs that he was at least decent; she was clearly in love with him at the start of the chapter since she was dreaming happily about him, and the only complaint we've seen is 'he's not here enough'. These things show that she missed him, not that they were growing apart or falling out of love or that he was an asshole to her. And if Jones was relevant, I feel like that would have been already mentioned too. And to be honest, after seeing this, I'd rather not see how Surma and Eglamore got together, purely because it'd annoy me more. Part of my problem is with how utter lacking in chemistry Tony and Surma's relationship is. Like, maybe if there was some serious sparks between them, I could understand why she could be so selfish. But... there's not. It was basically two beautifully drawn blocks of wood. |
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 28, 2017 16:54:01 GMT
Okay, remember the bit before that, when she tries to draw a teacher's attention to the fact she has a second shadow and gets blown off? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. "Nobody ever listens to children!" - Count Olaf, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events |
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Post by fia on Oct 28, 2017 16:54:38 GMT
I strongly identify with Tony so I can't help but like him at least a little bit. He's one of the only characters in Gunnerkrigg Court that I get on an emotional level. I finally bit the bullet and made an account just to come and agree with you! Seeing some of the angry (and sometimes almost violent) reactions to Tony on these threads has shaken me up… I can’t help but wonder if people would react to me in the same way if we ever met. Maybe it seems obvious to me because I deal with a lot of the same issues, but guys, Tony has anxiety. He’s not a sociopath, and he’s certainly not out to be a terrible person on purpose – in fact, he knows perfectly well when he’s acting wrongly and feels horrible about it. [...] Anyway, gold star if you managed to get all the way through this mess. I have a lot of feelings about this/fictional portrayals of mental health issues in general. I just wanted to say welcome to the forums and thank you for sharing.  I have friends with social anxiety and this is true of them for sure. Tony seems to have a pretty severe case of anxiety as a young person; as an older person he has that plus depression, I think. I am also on the "Tony is not a sociopath" bandwagon. That said, let me clarify: we can still hold him accountable for his bad parenting and depression-sourced neglect. But I don't understand where all the rage is coming from. I say this as someone with a neglectful father myself. Sometimes I feel anger; a lot of it is just grief, though. (In my dad's case is a different set of mental health issues we need not get into. His own dad was an abusive asshole; he is merely neglectful). |
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Post by spritznar on Oct 28, 2017 16:55:55 GMT
[comment deleted] nevermind, just reread the context for that and i was mistaken so, nothing to see here
in other news: it seems like a lot of the complaints about surma falling for tony and how realistic it is boil down to "i don't see anything attractive about tony", which, it's fine if tony's not your type, but that doesn't mean it's unrealistic or bad writing if he is surma's type
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Post by Darkfeather21 on Oct 28, 2017 17:13:51 GMT
Wait, since when were Surma and James in a relationship?
Man, I really need to do another Archive Binge.
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Noka
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Post by Noka on Oct 28, 2017 18:33:01 GMT
So, there's a lot of people digging into how Tony's treated Antimony, so here's my take:
Tony's inability to express himself when two+ people are around is probably some kind of aetheric quirk, like Paz's talking to animals. That would be pretty in line with what we already know in canon, and why Tony pretty clearly hasn't fixed it at this point in time, even after his experiences traveling the world and such giving him ample opportunity to work on it.
The issue on the subject of Antimony is not only that she's Antimony and she reminded him of Surma, but why they'd never have exposed this in childhood. I mentioned it a comic or two back, but it makes sense that Surma and Antimony never being apart kept Tony from being himself around Antimony, and we know that after Surma died, Antimony pretty quickly was moved to Gunnerkrigg. To put it another way, Antimony and Tony were unable to be alone until not only after Surma died, but also after the events of GC so far have played out.
But why wouldn't he be able to express himself when they were alone after that? Two possible reasons: One, the fact he looks at her and sees Surma could be enough to keep him from opening up. Or two, and this is the idea I like: The Court, either deliberately or accidentally, has leashed him by letting him know they're watching Antimony. It's clear that he has issues with perceiving more than one person around him, and the Court bringing him back to leash Antimony implies that Antimony's a high-profile person for them, that they would watch fairly consistently. We even had him establish that he ensured no one was listening in when Donnie and him talked alone, after all!
It's really pretty interesting, to me.
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Post by maxptc on Oct 28, 2017 19:16:01 GMT
Maybe he was never around so she couldn't bring it up? But more seriously, we have no idea what they have talked about in private. We never see flashbacks of them dating. There is no hint that Surma didn't talk about the distance bugging her with James Ifs she's mentioned it to people outside the realtionship, it's reasonable to believe she has said it to James. Maybe James is hearing it for the 1st time, but its the 100th time Surma has brought it up to him. We can assume, but that how asses are made. If he was around enough to date her, he was definitely around enough for her to talk to him about it. The fact that James has literally no idea why is actually a very big hint, as is the phrasing they both use. There's no 'is this because' or anything like that from Eglamore (I mean, he jumps straight to the idea that Tony did something), and Surma's phrasing is very much like she's telling him something for the first time (and possibly trying to rationalise it to herself). That, combined with the fact that we already know from this very chapter that Surma was selfish enough to cheat because she apparently couldn't be bothered waiting two weeks at most, is a pretty big indicator that she's well able and willing to be an absolute ass to Eglamore in this situation. Honestly, the only person who comes off any bit well out of the three of them right now is Eglamore. Him jumping straight to blaming someone else doesn't say "we've never talked about this" it says "I can't accept that the fault would lie with me or Surma". If she has mentioned it to freinds, she has mentioned it to her boyfriend James as well and even if she didn't it means they had a crappy realtionship devoid of baisc communication. I'd sooner believe James just didn't take her complaint's seriously, so this is still a shocker to him. I think James also looks like a tool here, but I don't think any of three come off well here. All three handle this break up like inexperienced teenagers, which makes sense. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Oct 28, 2017 19:43:00 GMT
So, there's a lot of people digging into how Tony's treated Antimony, so here's my take: Tony's inability to express himself when two+ people are around is probably some kind of aetheric quirk, like Paz's talking to animals. That would be pretty in line with what we already know in canon, and why Tony pretty clearly hasn't fixed it at this point in time, even after his experiences traveling the world and such giving him ample opportunity to work on it. An aetheric quirk? When multiple people, myself included, would describe the experience as deep-seated anxiety about socialization. That's not the sort of thing you fix with anything other than years of therapy, which he was most assuredly not doing as he scoured the world for some way to get his wife back. |
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Noka
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Post by Noka on Oct 28, 2017 20:09:36 GMT
So, there's a lot of people digging into how Tony's treated Antimony, so here's my take: Tony's inability to express himself when two+ people are around is probably some kind of aetheric quirk, like Paz's talking to animals. That would be pretty in line with what we already know in canon, and why Tony pretty clearly hasn't fixed it at this point in time, even after his experiences traveling the world and such giving him ample opportunity to work on it. An aetheric quirk? When multiple people, myself included, would describe the experience as deep-seated anxiety about socialization. That's not the sort of thing you fix with anything other than years of therapy, which he was most assuredly not doing as he scoured the world for some way to get his wife back. A deep-seated anxiety is definitely plausible (I totally see where you're coming from), but I'm not sure. To be honest, after he connected and talked with Surma, Tony had ample time and reason to seek therapy - there's a significant period between when his and Surma's relationship started and when Surma got pregnant, assuming they waited a couple years and didn't start right out of Gunnerkrigg (since Tony does not quite look that young, and we know young adult Surma had a few adventures with Reynardine and such before her pregnancy and death). If he didn't seek therapy, then he could have issues with being romantic with Surma, who pretty clearly has needs for this kind of thing. Unless we get a lot of context dumped about the time Surma and Tony spent together and how Tony addressed the issue he clearly knows he has, it seems simpler to me that it's something that Tony couldn't fix with therapy, or that his form of coping required Surma. Either's a valid reason - we just happen to have some implications that Gunnerkrigg takes in people with aetheric quirks, so I lean in that direction. |
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Post by spritznar on Oct 28, 2017 20:46:13 GMT
An aetheric quirk? When multiple people, myself included, would describe the experience as deep-seated anxiety about socialization. That's not the sort of thing you fix with anything other than years of therapy, which he was most assuredly not doing as he scoured the world for some way to get his wife back. A deep-seated anxiety is definitely plausible (I totally see where you're coming from), but I'm not sure. To be honest, after he connected and talked with Surma, Tony had ample time and reason to seek therapy - there's a significant period between when his and Surma's relationship started and when Surma got pregnant, assuming they waited a couple years and didn't start right out of Gunnerkrigg (since Tony does not quite look that young, and we know young adult Surma had a few adventures with Reynardine and such before her pregnancy and death). If he didn't seek therapy, then he could have issues with being romantic with Surma, who pretty clearly has needs for this kind of thing. Unless we get a lot of context dumped about the time Surma and Tony spent together and how Tony addressed the issue he clearly knows he has, it seems simpler to me that it's something that Tony couldn't fix with therapy, or that his form of coping required Surma. Either's a valid reason - we just happen to have some implications that Gunnerkrigg takes in people with aetheric quirks, so I lean in that direction. did he have reason because of surma? it wasn't a dealbreaker for surma when starting the relationship. it appears she was willing to work around his social anxiety by making time to hang out alone together, and he doesn't seem to have trouble filling surma's romantic needs in private. tony had been managing his anxiety in his own ways for probably his entire life so far. it wasn't ideal but it was working for him. after surma became pregnant he certainly had reason to seek therapy, but it's more likely he was throwing all his energy into figuring out how to prevent surma from dying rather than preparing himself for being a single parent without her. (he probably couldn't really prepare for after surma's death because surma's death was unthinkable, he was going to save her, there was no other option. until she died and suddenly the unthinkable was staring him in the face and he wasn't prepared and he couldn't cope at all and it was too little too late) |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 28, 2017 20:57:50 GMT
Honestly it just make me believe even more that he unconsciously encouraged Annie to do things without help (probably thought asking for a therapist would be a blow to his pride as some do apparently see it as a sign of weakness rather than strength).
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Post by linkzeldi on Oct 28, 2017 21:46:22 GMT
Honestly, if Elgamore has any flaw in this situation it's his inability to see a flaw in Surma. Which I think has been a long running thing with his character, always trying to blame Tony for the ills and misgivings of the court and never really noticing the several hints that Surma herself was flawed (Ie, the thing where she thought manipulating Reynardine was acceptable behavior).
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Post by maxptc on Oct 28, 2017 22:04:07 GMT
Honestly, if Elgamore has any flaw in this situation it's his inability to see a flaw in Surma. Which I think has been a long running thing with his character, always trying to blame Tony for the ills and misgivings of the court and never really noticing the several hints that Surma herself was flawed (Ie, the thing where she thought manipulating Reynardine was acceptable behavior). Agreed, it's one of his quirks. The way he handles a variety of situations in the modern court, the scene we know comes after this with Jones, they also suggest James has a hard time assigning responsibility fairly. He seems to think along "what did he have/do/say to steal her" and "what's wrong with me" lines. "What was wrong with our relationship or Surma" would be a fairer way to look at these events. Tony just makes a safer target. |
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Post by spritznar on Oct 28, 2017 23:00:13 GMT
Honestly it just make me believe even more that he unconsciously encouraged Annie to do things without help (probably thought asking for a therapist would be a blow to his pride as some do apparently see it as a sign of weakness rather than strength). i don't see it as a pride thing, i see it as that's just the way tony's always been and he's learned to live with it and didn't think of it as something that needed fixed per se. i'd imagine this kind of thing is hard to diagnose internally (or judge the severity of it anyway), because it's just your normal. like if you're prone to catch colds easily and you figure, it isn't that bad, not worth the hassle of going to the doctor because most of the time a cold is perfectly manageable without a doctor. but then you get a particularly bad cold, and you figure it's more of the same and you can deal with it because you've dealt with colds your whole life. except it turns into pneumonia. tony had a managable condition that he didn't get help for because he didn't realize it was going to become a much more serious condition. |
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Post by tc on Oct 28, 2017 23:28:42 GMT
Uh, the whole disappearing from her life without so much as a goodbye right after her other parent died and failing to contact her in any way for over a year? We already know at least part of the reason for this - he took the entirety of the responsibility for Surma's death onto his own shoulders and as he said to Donny, he felt that Annie would want nothing to do with "the man who killed her mother". We know that he was incorrect in that assumption, and some will certainly feel that he could and should have done more to find out if that was the case (for the record, I'm still on the fence there...). Around the time of Tony's return, some readers seemed to go further, and assumed that Tony unilaterally decided to pack Annie off to boarding school so he wouldn't have to deal with Annie's emotional trauma as well as his own. Of course, at the time most of what we knew of Tony came either from from Donnie (who knew Tony well, but hadn't seen him since he left the Court for the hospital), and - being by far the most laid-back and conscientious of the old-skool Gunnerkrigg boys - he's tended to be very mindful not to express strong opinions about Annie's father in her presence; or from Sir Jimmy, who we now know still harbours an almost unhealthy degree of resentment towards the guy - and therefore the characterisation we got was of a devious man "in deep" with the Court who was also somewhat of a "cold fish" emotionally. Of course we now know that while Tony struggles in social situations, he's anything *but* a cold fish emotionally - he's funny, conscientious and cares deeply about his wife and daughter (which ties up with Annie's memory of Tony carefully bandaging her injured ankle when they were practicing martial arts together - as shown to us in "Microsat 5" 1). We've also just seen strong hints that Surma was always at the very least an equal decision-making partner in their relationship, and in the current situation is actively taking the lead 2. That being the case, I can't help but feel that the notion that Tony packed Annie off to school in the Court with nary a thought for her well-being, then went off on a frolic of his own just isn't holding water anymore. I'm fairly certain that Surma and Tony made detailed plans as to what would follow should he be unsuccessful in finding a cure in time for Surma, and I have a few theories as to what those plans might have been (and why Tony is playing his cards very close to his chest even with their oldest friends - to say nothing of Annie...). Then she could've waited until she could contact him. Just say: Tony, I want to end my relationship with James when we get back and start going out with you. And there you go, done. In real life that approach is certainly do-able, but from a storytelling standpoint there's a distinct lack of passion to it. In fact, some readers have said that they're not picking up much chemistry between Surma and Tony in spite of the fact that Surma made her point by literally straddling Tony's lap and pulling him into a passionate kiss! If Tom had presented things in the way you're suggesting they'd be even less inclined to believe there was any chemistry between them, no? ...and that Annie is currently paying the price for some adult's decision to prioritize having leverage over Tony above giving her the discipline she needed, yes? It's more complicated than that. What you're saying is right, but it was Annie's own actions in choosing to continue secretly copying Kat's schoolwork (because she didn't want Kat to think she was stupid) that gave the Court the pretext to do so. Actually, I'd say Annie seems relatively sensible (by the standard of most fictional kids in stories of this ilk)... Has it? The events immediately following Tony's return were certainly traumatic from Annie's point of view, but on the other hand Tony returned Renard as soon as she asked him, and Annie was able to lead the gang in freeing Jeanne's spirit largely unimpeded. The only long-term consequence still present is having to repeat the year, and Annie seems to have made her peace with that. Respectfully, how do you figure that? On the basis that it's increasingly likely that the decision to have Annie attend the Court school while Tony went looking for answers was mutually agreed between Surma and Tony in advance, I can't see how that's a fair accusation. ... Surma and Antimony never being apart kept Tony from being himself around Antimony... Annie's memory of martial arts training with Tony implies that wasn't the case though... Honestly it just make me believe even more that he unconsciously encouraged Annie to do things without help (probably thought asking for a therapist would be a blow to his pride as some do apparently see it as a sign of weakness rather than strength). I've never seen Tony as a particularly prideful person thus far. [ 1 - As a would-be storyteller myself, I'm in awe of how Tom managed to hint that, before Surma's passing, Tony seemed to be trying to teach Annie resilience, patience and strength whilst being protective and caring - all in a single page. That's ninja-level visual storytelling right there!] [ 2 - There's little or no room for dissembling or mis-remembering at this stage of the story; Anja was present in the room for this confrontation and is a first-hand source.] |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 28, 2017 23:50:23 GMT
I've never seen Tony as a particularly prideful person thus far. i don't see it as a pride thing, i see it as that's just the way tony's always been and he's learned to live with it and didn't think of it as something that needed fixed per se. i'd imagine this kind of thing is hard to diagnose internally (or judge the severity of it anyway), because it's just your normal. like if you're prone to catch colds easily and you figure, it isn't that bad, not worth the hassle of going to the doctor because most of the time a cold is perfectly manageable without a doctor. but then you get a particularly bad cold, and you figure it's more of the same and you can deal with it because you've dealt with colds your whole life. except it turns into pneumonia. tony had a managable condition that he didn't get help for because he didn't realize it was going to become a much more serious condition. I don't know that sounds close enough doesn't it? You know, thinking you (you being Tony here) knows best and that you don't have to get someone else's opinion? Heck, why else would Annie for example feel that asking Kat or anyone else to tutor her would be embarrassing? |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 29, 2017 0:12:41 GMT
<fast rewind with squeaky backwards voices to just before this scene started> "James, welcome back. I hope your training was productive. There's something I have to tell you, so why don't you put your bag down." "Hey, what's up with calling me James? And why do I have to put my bag down?" "Well, you know what they say, sometimes there are things you just shouldn't say to someone before they put their bags down, it's just better that way." "... Who are 'they' and what do they say this about?" "Look, there are things. Bag things. And not bag things. To say. And you shouldn't mix them up. What I'm trying to say is..." "Why don't you say whatever it is you have to say and then I decide whether I want to put my bag down for it." "James, please don't be difficult about this. It's just a bag, you were going to put it down, weren't you?" "The bag. Stays ON. My shoulder. Until I don't want it to." "All right, James. All right. I'm breaking up with you." "What? Surma, but, w-why, is it -" "It's your poor bag handling skills in social situations, James. I just can't take it anymore. Look, everyone in this room knew you should have set your bag down there. Everyone but you. You never do. And now I've had to break this to you before you put your bag down, and that makes me hate myself, and you, and everything, and I don't want to feel that way about myself. So I'm breaking up with you. And that's that. I'm sorry, James." "You... have GOT to be joking..." <resume scene> Actually I can imagine James acting exactly like that in this situation. You miss the point. Propaganda pieces aren't art, whichever "side" they belong on. I dunno about that. Propaganda can be beautiful and artistic - i'd argue that the most effective stuff is. Compare something like Gunnerkrigg Court and Bill Nye Saves the World. They are both propaganda pieces in favour of unconventional relationships, but one is sophisticated, intelligent and engaging while the other is tacky and crass. GKC makes a case for unconventional relationships, but I would never call it a propaganda piece.  I didn't ever think that the mention in "Ties" of Surma not being too keen on Jones was supposed to be that significant; I saw it more as Tom just stressing what he'd been repeatedly saying outside the comic - that the "third girl" in the photograph was *not* Jones. Then it wouldn't have been neccessary to mention explicitly that Surma dislikes Jones. James' line "I wish Jones could have been in the photo." would have sufficed. Donny's answer showed that Surma had a say in who the group hung out with, and made the readers curious as to why she didn't like Jones. |
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yinglung
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It's only a tatter of mime.
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Post by yinglung on Oct 29, 2017 0:31:00 GMT
I've never seen Tony as a particularly prideful person thus far. i don't see it as a pride thing, i see it as that's just the way tony's always been and he's learned to live with it and didn't think of it as something that needed fixed per se. i'd imagine this kind of thing is hard to diagnose internally (or judge the severity of it anyway), because it's just your normal. like if you're prone to catch colds easily and you figure, it isn't that bad, not worth the hassle of going to the doctor because most of the time a cold is perfectly manageable without a doctor. but then you get a particularly bad cold, and you figure it's more of the same and you can deal with it because you've dealt with colds your whole life. except it turns into pneumonia. tony had a managable condition that he didn't get help for because he didn't realize it was going to become a much more serious condition. I don't know that sounds close enough doesn't it? You know, thinking you (you being Tony here) knows best and that you don't have to get someone else's opinion? Heck, why else would Annie for example feel that asking Kat or anyone else to tutor her would be embarrassing? It might be that Tony was deep enough in court matters that he knew he couldn't trust them. Depending on how powerful/extensive the court is, it's possible for them to manipulate any therapist he could have met with, which makes it hard to trust said therapist. In fact, the independence he and Annie exhibit is often appropriate when living under the roof of amoral scientific conspiracy government. Unfortunately, that means they are both not in the habit of leaning on others for support even when it would be to their benefit. |
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Post by tc on Oct 29, 2017 0:58:15 GMT
It might be that Tony was deep enough in court matters that he knew he couldn't trust them. And *BAM!*... I think you're on to something. You just gave me a bit of an epiphany too. Right now we're understandably focused on the change in the gang's romantic partnerships, but it just occurred to me that we might be seeing the beginning of another shift - namely the point where Donny and Tony's professional research partnership gave way to each of them working primarily with their partners (who later became their spouses). If Tony and Surma's work prior to the birth of Annie exposed them to Court shenanigans of which Donny and Anja are unaware, it would explain a lot about why they felt they had to break contact. |
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Post by todd on Oct 29, 2017 1:15:22 GMT
I doubt they could have known that much about the Court's darker secrets by the time of Surma's death, or they wouldn't have sent Annie there.
(I've sometimes wondered whether it might have been healthier for Annie to have gone to a normal school with nothing etheric around, where she could have had more hopes of learning to be a regular kid. On the other hand, from what I've seen so far, the weird things would probably find a way of seeking her out anyway; all it would take would be a bug dying on school grounds for Ketrak to show up, for instance.)
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Post by tc on Oct 29, 2017 1:22:35 GMT
I doubt they could have known that much about the Court's darker secrets by the time of Surma's death, or they wouldn't have sent Annie there. Fair point - but regardless of what Surma and Tony know, Annie would still be safe at the Court school as long as *she* was unaware of what was going on (and here I'm thinking as much about the way the Court began using Surma to capture Renard as I am the ominous-sounding "Omega Device" they've had Tony researching). The same is also true of Anja and Donny. |
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Post by spritznar on Oct 29, 2017 1:55:18 GMT
I've never seen Tony as a particularly prideful person thus far. i don't see it as a pride thing, i see it as that's just the way tony's always been and he's learned to live with it and didn't think of it as something that needed fixed per se. i'd imagine this kind of thing is hard to diagnose internally (or judge the severity of it anyway), because it's just your normal. like if you're prone to catch colds easily and you figure, it isn't that bad, not worth the hassle of going to the doctor because most of the time a cold is perfectly manageable without a doctor. but then you get a particularly bad cold, and you figure it's more of the same and you can deal with it because you've dealt with colds your whole life. except it turns into pneumonia. tony had a managable condition that he didn't get help for because he didn't realize it was going to become a much more serious condition. I don't know that sounds close enough doesn't it? You know, thinking you (you being Tony here) knows best and that you don't have to get someone else's opinion? Heck, why else would Annie for example feel that asking Kat or anyone else to tutor her would be embarrassing? no it doesn't sound close enough to pride to me. i think it's pretty reasonable to think you understand yourself better than anyone else and not realize you need help until it's too late. if we constantly doubted ourselves it would be impossible to become functional independent human beings. in fact, arguably that's tony's problem, that he doubts and second guesses himself into paralysis. regarding annie not asking for help: miriam webster had a nice blurb on pride vs vanity and that seems more like vanity, and in my opinion she'd be more likely to have picked that up from surma |
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Post by tc on Oct 29, 2017 2:27:00 GMT
Honestly it just make me believe even more that he unconsciously encouraged Annie to do things without help... But isn't teaching your child how to stand on their own two feet and be a person in their own right *the whole flipping point* of parenting?! |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 29, 2017 2:50:47 GMT
Honestly it just make me believe even more that he unconsciously encouraged Annie to do things without help... But isn't teaching your child how to stand on their own two feet and be a person in their own right *the whole flipping point* of parenting?! Not to the point of: A. Putting oneself on a pedestal and laughing at the idea that you're not perfect. B. Being deathly afraid to ask for help when needed. no it doesn't sound close enough to pride to me. i think it's pretty reasonable to think you understand yourself better than anyone else and not realize you need help until it's too late. if we constantly doubted ourselves it would be impossible to become functional independent human beings. in fact, arguably that's tony's problem, that he doubts and second guesses himself into paralysis. True, but the opposite extreme isn't any more healthy either. |
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Post by tc on Oct 29, 2017 2:53:05 GMT
Not to the point of: A. Putting oneself on a pedestal and laughing at the idea that you're not perfect. B. Being deathly afraid to ask for help when needed. But who's doing that and where's your evidence? [EDIT: I mean, if I'm reading you correctly you seem to be inferring that in teaching Annie martial arts (and the notions of strength, balance and self-reliance that can be a part of it) Tony must somehow be doing it to further some kind of egocentric plan to mould his daughter in his own image, specifically regarding his own asocial tendencies as a positive trait that should be emulated. And if that is the case I have to say - Dude, seriously? Are you so wedded to the idea of "Tony-as-irredeemable-arsehole" that even when he's doing something which is arguably a good bit of parenting there must be some kind of dark subtext? I mean, when has Tony ever been shown fluffing his ego and acting the "Big 'I Am'"? If anything the last few chapters have indicated that he's one of the least egotistical adult characters in the story as a whole up until this point. And he doesn't seem particularly proud of his social anxieties - in fact he implied to Surma that she might want to reconsider starting a romantic relationship with him because of them. As far as I can see, this reflexive dislike of Tony amongst some readers always goes back to the way he treated Annie at the start of "The Tree" - and don't get me wrong, in parenting terms he unequivocally messed up there. Going back to that chapter with the benefit of hindsight, one can see that when he's addressing Annie, he's rebuking her in the way a parent (or teacher for that matter) would a pre-pubescent child; possibly because the last time he saw her, that's exactly what Annie was. He failed to factor in the amount of time that had passed, and in doing so he effectively infantilised a girl in her mid-teens in front of a class full of her peers, which was painfully inappropriate (and something of which he has later been shown as being ashamed). Not once has he been shown trying to justify his behaviour 1 in the classroom that morning - quite the opposite in fact. Here's the thing though - even with the best intentions sometimes parents do screw up. In fact arguably one of the most fundamentally important (and often least palatable) milestones growing into adulthood is the realisation that the people who raised you are in fact fallible. [ 1 - Apropos of nothing, abusive personalities almost *always* think up a way to justify their actions after the fact...] ] |
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Post by spritznar on Oct 29, 2017 3:47:07 GMT
no it doesn't sound close enough to pride to me. i think it's pretty reasonable to think you understand yourself better than anyone else and not realize you need help until it's too late. if we constantly doubted ourselves it would be impossible to become functional independent human beings. in fact, arguably that's tony's problem, that he doubts and second guesses himself into paralysis. True, but the opposite extreme isn't any more healthy either. the opposite extreme of what? |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 29, 2017 4:00:24 GMT
True, but the opposite extreme isn't any more healthy either. the opposite extreme of what? Constantly doubting yourself. |
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Post by spritznar on Oct 29, 2017 4:09:42 GMT
the opposite extreme of what? Constantly doubting yourself. yes, but i don't think that tony's problem is that he never doubts himself |
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Post by faiiry on Oct 29, 2017 4:27:45 GMT
Hey, guys. Tom has subverted our expectations at every turn. With that being said, I propose that on Monday, Tony will unexpectedly whoop Eglamore's ass with a fury and prowess that has never before been seen on this Earth. (Like someone said, we still don't know how Eggy got his scar. Consider this: IT WAS TONY.)
EDIT: I wasn't initially serious, but then I remembered that Tony is canonically a martial arts teacher (http://gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1019). Oh dear. Eggers may be fried eggs and toast.
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Post by tc on Oct 29, 2017 4:38:23 GMT
EDIT: I wasn't initially serious, but then I remembered that Tony is canonically a martial arts teacher (http://gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1019). Oh dear. Eggers may be fried eggs and toast. I think someone said Tony's expertise was in Judo - which is based around manipulating and handling body mass and inertia. Sir Jimmy has lifted Tony off the floor, meaning Tony has nothing on which to gain a purchase and try to use his expertise... As such I stand by my original wild-butt guess My guess is we're going to see Fire-Surma revealed, saying something like "James, if you ever really cared about me you'll put him down and walk away - right now." |
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I have friends with social anxiety and this is true of them for sure. Tony seems to have a pretty severe case of anxiety as a young person; as an older person he has that plus depression, I think.
