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Post by machiavelli33 on Oct 27, 2017 9:13:54 GMT
Let's all have a moment and recall that James' reaction here is Annie's reaction exactly to Kat associating with Tony: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1857Except, of course, we can correctly interpret James' reaction as a misunderstanding, since we have numerous pages of sweet teenage budding love as context. This whole story is an object lesson for Annie. This whole story is also, in fact, an object lesson for all of us: the Gunnerkrigg Court readers. We'd like to think that we're better than this. That human beings are better than this. That they're logical, and can look at situations like what Tony and James and Surma and Antimony are going through ...and react reasonably, rationally - or that we could even *judge* them reasonably, or rationally. We're not though. We're emotional creatures, and we're fucking stupid when we're emotional - we're stupid, we're selfish, we're abusive, we're paranoid, we're hopeless. We say things we don't mean, do things we didn't want to do, and hurt people that we'd never want to hurt, sometimes irreparably. It's how we're built - when we feel hurt, or threatened, our brains are programmed to want to react to it. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense how someone gets treated when someone is feeling emotional, it doesn't matter that someone who's as deeply loved and cherished as one's own daughter isn't being treated the way she should be by any measure of common sense, and it doesn't matter that taking sides on a story like this is exactly the wrong lesson to be learning from it. Countless eons of survival instinct won't be denied. A lifetime's worth of lessons and lived experience doesn't just go away. Not even if it'd be the best thing in the world if it did. Because again, we're stupid when we're emotional. So stupid. Every person in this story, every character in this comic, hell every poster on this board is an example of the lesson this story has to teach. We can try why we feel the way we do, why we do the things we did. But in the end, we can't entirely blame anyone for feeling the way they do either. Not without blaming ourselves, too. |
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Post by frogspawned on Oct 27, 2017 9:34:37 GMT
Please. Punch him hard enough that these last two years and a half years of Gunnerkrigg Court never happened. I still can't believe there are people that have decided to go over to Tony's side I never "Went over" to Tony's side per se, in fact I always thought he was received rather unfairly by the commentariat. Looking at things logically from his perspective: Upon his wife's death he left on a long and arduous quest to bring her back, to save her fire before it went out for good. (It may well have been time sensitive. The Etheric Sciences are hard to judge.) But before doing so he made arrangements for his daughter: sending her to the safest and most interesting place he knows to be watched over by the people he trusts the most in the entire world. In the course of his mission to save his wife, he makes a massive personal sacrifice: cutting off his own arm in an attempt to save the love of his life. When this fails and he is punched out by an eldritch abomination claiming to be working on behalf of his daughter, he reassesses where he is in life. I think it's probably safe to say it's at this point he comes to terms with the fact that he has failed to save Surma (and possibly endangered his daughter in his singleminded attempts to do so). I would imagine his pride to be wounded, his heart to be broken and for him to be suffering the accusations of his logical brain and his paternal instincts, both of which scream at him that he's been neglecting his responsibilities to his daughter. He goes back to the Court to be reunited with her, only to be intercepted by the Court's agents. They have him report to them, and spin him the tale of Annie's behaviour over the past years. She's flouted Court regulations in regards to safety/forest issues, been regularly cheating on her homework and playing hookie from detentions. They tell him that either they handle her punishment or he agrees to work for them and can handle it himself. At this point they have him by the short and curlies - essentially blackmailing him into working for them by using the influence they have over the thing he cares most for in the world: his daughter. And so we reach the point of their reunion. In an attempt to establish himself as a figure of authority and discipline that Annie so blatantly needs in her life, he understandably comes off as cold. I don't think many fathers could have done better, especially not ones that suffer from extreme social awkwardness that have to put on a performance for a classful of teenagers at the same time. Since then he's tried to act firm but fair, permissive but protective: and when Annie has gone to him with reasonable requests he has not himself been particularly unreasonable (See: Reynardine.) As for the current chapter, it looked to me like Surma pretty much forced herself on him when she saw a side to him that was not constrained by his extreme social awkwardness and as such it's hard for me to condemn him for his part in the current drama*. *Barring of course the slight possibility that he is involved in some kind of sketchy mind-manipulation experiment. If that turns out to be the case I will happily walk back some of my assumptions about his character and motivations. |
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Post by philman on Oct 27, 2017 9:36:39 GMT
That's why I'm on Team Donny, because I prefer gaining deeper understanding about the different corners of the story, regardless of how dark or disturbing they may be. Woo team Donny! *flies a flag* Sure, fly your flag of your likable reasonable character. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are no "good" characters in this comic. Everyone has shades of grey. Donny is so nice that I fully expect him to be revealed as an evil scientist undertaking human experimentation at some point! |
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Post by Rasselas on Oct 27, 2017 9:42:18 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are no "good" characters in this comic. Everyone has shades of grey. Donny is so nice that I fully expect him to be revealed as an evil scientist undertaking human experimentation at some point! Oh, I don't doubt it! My sentiment is less tied to the actual character of Donny, and more about the effort to see beyond the most obvious way to look at the story. |
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rhiu
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Post by rhiu on Oct 27, 2017 9:44:04 GMT
I understand the Tony hate, knowing what we know about him in the present, but I strongly identify with Tony so I can't help but like him at least a little bit. He's one of the only characters in Gunnerkrigg Court that I get on an emotional level. Annie and him have basically the same (lack of) coping mechanisms coupled with an inability to reach out and learn how to deal with their emotions from others. They're remarkably similar in emotional processing, and it sucks because without coping mechanisms those emotions are just going to fester and become even more poisonous. Even somewhat positive ones can be poisoned by this process.
I feel for Annie and I feel for Tony, because I've been in that position where you're nothing but a swirling ball of negative emotions that just continue feeding off of each other, and even attempting to pretend to be fine just drives little shards of bitterness and pain into yourself. You feel hopeless because nothing you do improves the situation. You know, logically, that your emotions are disproportionate to the situation that caused them and/or that the people around you don't deserve you talking about them or taking them out on them. But honestly, that just makes it worse, because now you add shame to the mix but shame does nothing to actually reduce the original negative emotions.
The negative emotions become such an all-encompassing part of your life that they poison everything. Anything even remotely related to the initial situation becomes a trigger that threatens to unravel your very weak facade of control, so life becomes a minefield where something completely innocuous can cause those suppressed-for-the-moment-but-not-gone emotions to flare up in unpredictable ways. You become afraid of your reactions to the point where you start to hate the triggers and try to eradicate/minimize their existence because that's all you can control - you certainly can't control your emotions.
Tony has it much worse than Annie in the emotional coping department, though. Hopefully she learns how to deal with them in a healthier way than Tony has (I think she's already on that path).
I might be projecting, I don't know. But regardless, I don't think Tony is a sociopath - his extreme social ineptitude just has him come off as emotionless and then it's very difficult for even a socially average person to act empathetically when they're just a person-shaped hole of self-hatred, anger, and grief. His actions as an adult have still been pretty horrible, don't get me wrong, but... I get it.
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Post by Rasselas on Oct 27, 2017 9:57:27 GMT
rhiu Thank you for elaborating on this personality type and sharing your perspective. I could see that Tony's cool facade was hiding a lot of complexity underneath, but since it's the opposite of my own personality, it was more difficult to know what's going on.
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Post by machiavelli33 on Oct 27, 2017 10:09:14 GMT
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Post by tc on Oct 27, 2017 10:18:04 GMT
Upon his wife's death he left on a long and arduous quest to bring her back, to save her fire before it went out for good. I agree with everything you say in your post apart from this one point. I don't think his "quest" had anything to do with saving (or even reconnecting with) Surma - he very specifically didn't tell Donny what his purpose was while he was away, only that the creatures he found (whom he presumed were the 'pomps) offered to allow him to see Surma again, and he took that offer (an action which he now regrets - not because of the personal sacrifice he had to make, but because it put Annie in mortal danger). At no point does he say that's what he had been looking for in the first place. I have my own views as to what he was up to (and why he's being so cagey about it), but in general I think we need a bit of a reality-check here. Sociopaths are individuals who lack any drive to abide by social norms, and extreme cases can end up performing acts which most would find horrific simply for their own amusement. Tony is an introvert with mild asocial traits - a very different thing. Also, when speaking of "abusive behaviour" we're talking about a *behavioural pattern* (or patterns). Tony was mean to Annie precisely *once* that we've seen, and we later learned that he was under considerable duress to do so : We've basically been shown explicitly that Tony's actions in the classroom were coerced out of him by the Court using the very real threat of sending Annie into permanent exile (which also carried the implied threat of making a cure for her "condition" impossible if/when he left with her)... By that measure, Tony is in no way an abusive parent. As far as the accusations thrown Tony's way regarding seeing Annie as "the ghost of his dead wife", as Ysengrin once put it - again we've seen no evidence of this. In fact only one human character has addressed Annie by her mother's name, and it wasn't Tony... |
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Post by maxptc on Oct 27, 2017 10:20:37 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are no "good" characters in this comic. Everyone has shades of grey. I refuse to tolerate robot slander. They are one shade of grey. |
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Post by wombat on Oct 27, 2017 10:26:50 GMT
I guess I'm in the minority, but "You were never around" seems like a decent enough reason to end a relationship to me, especially at that age. It seems like they're was little to no contact between the two when they were separated, and that can leave someone feeling like they're more in a relationship with the idea of a person than an actual person. Surma needs to think of what she wants for her own life, and it seems like someone who's away so much isn't it.
I think just being there can be hugely important for a relationship, and I don't think that makes anyone shallow. This is especially true for when relationships are just in the space of continuing on because it's more familiar and comfortable than not. Distance can really have an impact.
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Post by snowflake on Oct 27, 2017 10:35:23 GMT
Upon his wife's death he left on a long and arduous quest to bring her back, to save her fire before it went out for good. (It may well have been time sensitive. The Etheric Sciences are hard to judge.) But before doing so he made arrangements for his daughter: sending her to the safest and most interesting place he knows to be watched over by the people he trusts the most in the entire world. He doesn't talk to his daughter about any of this, not even so much as to say "I need to go on an important mission, kid. Listen to Don and Anja. Love ya", leaving her to feel she has been abandoned by her father, possibly because he hates her, right after her mother's death. But sure, let's give him points for not committing criminal child neglect. He goes back to the Court to be reunited with her, only to be intercepted by the Court's agents. He is found by the Court's agents, all injured and messed up, and gets re-rectuited to the court. I don't recall him heading back on his own. In an attempt to establish himself as a figure of authority and discipline that Annie so blatantly needs in her life, he understandably comes off as cold. There's being cold, and there's letting your kid honest-to-Jesus believe you don't love her, for several years, and even more so when you're present than when you're absent. I don't think many fathers could have done better, especially not ones that suffer from extreme social awkwardness that have to put on a performance for a classful of teenagers at the same time. Literally anyone could have done better, including Anthony himself. There was no reason that we know of for him and her to meet again for the first time in class. He could have arranged to meet her. Since then he's tried to act firm but fair Humiliating her about the makeup she was allowed to wear by every other teacher and everyone he trusted to raise her in his place wasn't fair. Abruptly forbidding her from doing the job she was allowed to take by the people who he entrusted with raising her wasn't fair. ... I'm super happy we've opened up this debate again, but really now. You gloss over a lot of things to defend Tony. Tony gets credit for leaving Annie with his friends at the Court, but no part of the blame for the fact her education was neglected and she was allowed to wander into dangerous situations on their watch, or for the fact that she ended up being the only one who was punished for the resulting inconsistency in her upbringing. |
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Post by snowflake on Oct 27, 2017 10:37:33 GMT
Anyway, from the look of Tony in Annie's memories of her childhood we know that whatever James did to him didn't mess his face up as much as what Zimmy did, so whatever.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Oct 27, 2017 10:46:27 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are no "good" characters in this comic. Everyone has shades of grey. Donny is so nice that I fully expect him to be revealed as an evil scientist undertaking human experimentation at some point! and Paz is running a mink farm on the side. |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Oct 27, 2017 10:50:29 GMT
Anthony in the last panel: "Hmm...I seem to have been grabbed by the shirt. This is a new experience."
As people have noted already, its really unlikely hes going to punch him. At this point Eglamore is so buff he could kill a man just by staring at him the wrong way.
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Post by stclair on Oct 27, 2017 10:54:22 GMT
That's right, Jim. Beat up the nerd. Reclaim your woman, your property, your prize. That's exactly how this works.
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Post by snipertom on Oct 27, 2017 11:59:20 GMT
Upon his wife's death he left on a long and arduous quest to bring her back, to save her fire before it went out for good. (It may well have been time sensitive. The Etheric Sciences are hard to judge.) But before doing so he made arrangements for his daughter: sending her to the safest and most interesting place he knows to be watched over by the people he trusts the most in the entire world. He doesn't talk to his daughter about any of this, not even so much as to say "I need to go on an important mission, kid. Listen to Don and Anja. Love ya", leaving her to feel she has been abandoned by her father, possibly because he hates her, right after her mother's death. But sure, let's give him points for not committing criminal child neglect. He goes back to the Court to be reunited with her, only to be intercepted by the Court's agents. He is found by the Court's agents, all injured and messed up, and gets re-rectuited to the court. I don't recall him heading back on his own. In an attempt to establish himself as a figure of authority and discipline that Annie so blatantly needs in her life, he understandably comes off as cold. There's being cold, and there's letting your kid honest-to-Jesus believe you don't love her, for several years, and even more so when you're present than when you're absent. I don't think many fathers could have done better, especially not ones that suffer from extreme social awkwardness that have to put on a performance for a classful of teenagers at the same time. Literally anyone could have done better, including Anthony himself. There was no reason that we know of for him and her to meet again for the first time in class. He could have arranged to meet her. Since then he's tried to act firm but fair Humiliating her about the makeup she was allowed to wear by every other teacher and everyone he trusted to raise her in his place wasn't fair. Abruptly forbidding her from doing the job she was allowed to take by the people who he entrusted with raising her wasn't fair. ... I'm super happy we've opened up this debate again, but really now. You gloss over a lot of things to defend Tony. Tony gets credit for leaving Annie with his friends at the Court, but no part of the blame for the fact her education was neglected and she was allowed to wander into dangerous situations on their watch, or for the fact that she ended up being the only one who was punished for the resulting inconsistency in her upbringing. Indeed. Just because he was a good boyfriend or husband to Surma doesn't mean he didn't become a neglectful and then emotionally abusive father because of his obsession later. Complex characters everyone... |
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Post by Fishy on Oct 27, 2017 12:24:20 GMT
I am reminded that this whole scenario is being told by Anja to Annie. I wonder how this part goes in her words. Something like “I was pretty sure I was about to see Tony’s head pop like a grape, and while I was concerned I can’t deny objectively it would have been kinda cool”
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Post by tc on Oct 27, 2017 12:35:17 GMT
Indeed. Just because he was a good boyfriend or husband to Surma doesn't mean he didn't become a neglectful and then emotionally abusive father because of his obsession later. Complex characters everyone... Indeed, but on the other hand it doesn't mean that he did become either of those things... There's a reason the readers are being kept in the dark as to what Tony was doing during the years we've come to know Annie and co., and part of that reason is almost certainly because to reveal it at this stage would kill off a big chunk of narrative tension. I repeat - abuse is a *pattern* of behaviour; it *repeats*. Tony has behaved questionably towards Annie a grand total of *once*, and we know that, for example : Abruptly forbidding her from doing the job she was allowed to take by the people who he entrusted with raising her... ...was a stipulation of the Court in allowing Annie to remain (remember that the Court told Tony that they were going to wait until graduation and then permanently exile her). It was not Tony's decision. I've said before that Tony's reaction to Annie's makeup was my only remaining "What the hell, hero?" aspect of what happened, and while it wasn't fair in the slightest and handled badly by Tony, the fact remains that he was hit with the emotional double-whammy of seeing his daughter look so much like her mother (whom he loved deeply - and is scarred both by her early passing and his failure to cure her), and seeing the daughter he last saw as a little girl on the brink of adolescence suddenly reappear on the verge of becoming a young woman. I don't mean anything icky by the second point (over and above the usual parent/child "growing up" dynamic), so much as it was a very sudden and shocking reminder that he's running out of time to save her. I've also said before that I've noticed a bit of a parallel between Sir Jimmy and Ysengrin, and when it come to Tony, neither of them are reliable narrators. The fact that Sir Jimmy never seems to have entirely "got over" not just losing Surma - but losing Surma to Tony - is, I'd argue, particularly unhealthy... |
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Post by todd on Oct 27, 2017 12:57:44 GMT
What if something happened, like, say, a robot cult kidnapping your daughter's whole class? Talking of, why has almost nobody in the comic addressed that that happened? [/li] [/quote] I'll confess that I've wondered more about that than about the details of the Eglamore-Surma-Antony love triangle. I think it understandable that the kidnapped class never mentioned the incident (as far as we can tell) to the adults. For one thing, it'd be all too easy for the Court to draw the conclusion from it that the robots were dangerous and paper-clip every last one of them, even the ones who came to the rescue. (Unless they feared that the Court wouldn't be able to survive without the robot work-force - but even then, things would be tense after that, as in the aftermath of a slave revolt.) Which might also be why Annie chose to ask Reynardine and the Robot King for help, rather than, say, Eglamore, Jones, Anya, or any of the other adults. (Alongside her preference for not going to the grown-ups for help, of course.) It's possible, also, that they didn't want to get Kat in trouble, and feared that if the Court found out that Kat's experiments were partly responsible for the cruise ship incident, they would forbid Kat to continue her experiments, and maybe even punish her outright for it. More inexplicable is that the Court staff (most of whose members are portrayed as observant and competent) haven't found out about it on their own (or, for that matter, that they didn't observe the robots carrying out all the set-up work, such as those buoys or anti-etheric patches - something that would be difficult to cover up, given the scale of it) and step in. Even if we assume that the highest echelons of the Court were ready to endanger a whole class (including the Headmaster's daughter), I can't imagine the Donlans, Eglamore, or Jones going along with it. (Of course, the robots' image of "comical eccentrics" might make people less likely to think they're plotting something - maybe the robots have been cultivating that image to ensure that the humans will underestimate them.) I can certainly imagine the more responsible teachers on that level arguing with the "inner circle" members if they were prepared to tolerate such behavior, the same way Jones protested to the Headmaster when he chose Andrew rather than Annie as Court medium. For that matter, even if Annie's year was sworn to secrecy about the cruise ship event, it's likely, with this many young people being in the know, somebody would have sooner or later slipped up and mentioned something that would have gotten the adults suspicious and prompted an investigation. It's difficult to imagine a whole crowd of adolescent children successfully keeping a secret on this scale for long. My best guess is that Tom felt that a response from the Court would get in the way of the story, and so didn't include one - and will someday provide an in-story reason for its having done nothing. (To be fair, we do know now that a couple of Court employees, at least, knew about the excursion to Annan Waters, but did not act at the time - only let Kat know afterwards that they knew about it.) |
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Post by ohthatone on Oct 27, 2017 13:08:06 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are no "good" characters in this comic. Everyone has shades of grey. Donny is so nice that I fully expect him to be revealed as an evil scientist undertaking human experimentation at some point! We know Donny is involved, or at least has knowledge of, this ominous "Omega Project" sooooo.....
I still don't know if James would punch Tony, I have a feeling Tony won't give him the chance to find out. I think next page we'll see Judo Tony. Possibly followed by him turning and walking away slowly saying "I have matters to attend to."
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Post by tc on Oct 27, 2017 13:16:39 GMT
I think next page we'll see Judo Tony. Possibly followed by him turning and walking away slowly saying "I have matters to attend to." Judo is about leveraging body weight and mass - James has lifted Tony up off the ground and there's nothing for Tony to get a purchase on. My guess is we're going to see Fire-Surma revealed, saying something like "James, if you ever really cared about me you'll put him down and walk away - right now." |
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Post by ctso74 on Oct 27, 2017 13:40:42 GMT
And then there's Anthony. 'Sociopath' may not be the right term, but I'm not sure what the correct term would be for someone who is perfectly capable of acting like a normal human being around seemingly everyone except their only living family. I think Schizoid is the term you're looking for, if "seemingly everyone" means "seemingly everyone individually or in small groups". Surma may not have enough control of her powers to intervene, but if she can slip between them, she can step in the way of a punch. A sad fact about fighting is, you and the one you're fighting may not be the ones to be hurt. Hopefully, Eggs will calm down. Or throw a punch stopping before contact. |
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Post by faiiry on Oct 27, 2017 13:44:33 GMT
Now I get it. The reason Tony was so salty and distant for the next 20+ years is because after this page, we're dealing with not Tony, but Tony's ghost.
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Post by todd on Oct 27, 2017 13:46:05 GMT
We know Donny is involved, or at least has knowledge of, this ominous "Omega Project" sooooo..... I've sometimes wondered if the Omega Project or Omega Device is really as sinister as we think. I suspect we're inclined to think the worst of it, partly because of the Court's track record, partly because of the sound of "Omega" - as the final letter of the Greek alphabet, it's gained a "doomsday" connotation. ("Omega" is also the twenty-fourth letter of the Greek alphabet, and so maybe this is just the twenty-fourth big project the Court has undertaken and whoever named it wasn't thinking of the darker associations such a name would conjure.) I've seen speculations here that the Omega Project may be a weapon used against the forest, but that is just speculation at this point. It's also possible that its purpose is to improve dramatically those power plant experiments, enough to make the big breakthrough in the Court's research there and provide a definite scientifically acceptable answer to all the strange phenomena that the Court's encountered since coming to Gilltie Wood. (Of course, that might have come with some nasty side-effects - remember Jones' warning about humanity's fears and nightmares entering the world through the Court's experiments - so we might indeed have good reason to be concerned about it. But that's still different from it being a deliberate doomsday weapon.) |
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Post by faiiry on Oct 27, 2017 13:58:40 GMT
Now that I've read the opinions (and there are lots), some of my notes about this page.
-Tony remains the most controversial character in the comic. Ever since The Tree, all anyone can talk about is whether he's a horrible person or a misunderstood sad sack. I think it's a combination. Remember, no character is totally evil.
-James is being violent here. With that in mind, I'm actually kind of rooting for him. If I was 7 feet tall, and enormously muscular, and my girlfriend dumped me in front of everyone in favor of some nerd who I never liked, JUST after I got home from presumably a long journey, I would be pissed off as well.
-Donny and Anja seem to have disappeared?
-Speaking of them, I don't think they are the "second worst parents in Gunnerkrigg Court." They could supervise their daughter a little more closely, sure, but I think it's apparent that GKC is not your typical city, and kids there have a lot more independence than they do outside. Kat is 15+, and I think that's old enough to take care of yourself, to a degree. She doesn't even really live with her mom and dad anymore.
-I think that brief "Eglamore is abusing Surma in secret" theory just lost water. When she confronts him he only looks confused and sad, but the instant Tony dares speak, he gets violent. I think it's clear who he is angry with.
-From Annie to Renard to Eggman, no one in the comic believes that Surma would go with Tony willingly without some kind of trickery being involved. That's an oddly specific thing to assume. I wonder if it has some significance? Nothing about Tony so far suggests that he's the type to hypnotize the ladies to do his evil bidding.
-Eggers has dropped his bag.
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 27, 2017 14:07:19 GMT
-Eggers has dropped his bag. I wonder if there are some other shoes in there. I apologize. |
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Post by gunnerscrag on Oct 27, 2017 14:07:54 GMT
Eggy Eggs Smash
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Post by snowflake on Oct 27, 2017 14:15:30 GMT
Tony remains the most controversial character in the comic. Ever since The Tree, all anyone can talk about is whether he's a horrible person or a misunderstood sad sack. Honestly, by now he's a pretty well-understood sad sack. The disputes are about which of his actions were bad, which of those he could help, and which of those his searing manpain excuses. |
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Post by frogspawned on Oct 27, 2017 14:21:52 GMT
I'm super happy we've opened up this debate again, but really now. You gloss over a lot of things to defend Tony. Tony gets credit for leaving Annie with his friends at the Court, but no part of the blame for the fact her education was neglected and she was allowed to wander into dangerous situations on their watch, or for the fact that she ended up being the only one who was punished for the resulting inconsistency in her upbringing. He only came back for Annie's benefit. He did not want to be beholden to the Court at all: so saying that only Annie was punished for her neglect of her studies, her seeking of danger and her insolence towards the Court's authority strikes me as a little disingenuous. |
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Post by wynne on Oct 27, 2017 14:27:41 GMT
I still can't believe there are people that have decided to go over to Tony's side, or ANY of these character's sides. There's a difference between "complex characters" and "plain godawful people". I think most of us are judging Dad!Tony separately from Flashback!Tony. He's a pretty shitty dad! But he's not a dad in this chapter, and from the characters' perspective it hasn't happened yet. |
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