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Post by tc on Oct 27, 2017 14:34:06 GMT
-From Annie to Renard to Eggman, no one in the comic believes that Surma would go with Tony willingly without some kind of trickery being involved. That's an oddly specific thing to assume. Renard and Sir Jimmy both believed Surma was their intended at one point though - neither of them dealt with finding out that wasn't the case particularly well, and Annie has been closer to both of them over the last few years than she has Tony. Neither Renard nor Sir Jimmy seem to be particularly big on introspection when it comes to Surma, and it's almost certainly less bruising to their egos to believe that Tony must have been up to something nefarious rather than accept that Surma was in love with Tony rather than them. For what it's worth I think Tony is neither a "horrible person [n]or a misunderstood sad sack". He's introverted, sure - but he's also shown repeated signs of a deeply caring and protective nature, as well as being fun to be around when there aren't too many people present. The reason he's holding Annie at arms' length is almost certainly because he feels unworthy of her love - firstly through having failed to cure Surma, and then almost getting Annie killed when he was tricked by the creatures in the cave. You may recall that Annie was on the way to a similar Heroic BSOD* over Red's blaming her for what happened with Jeanne until Kat snapped her out of it. Tony doesn't have anyone like Kat in his life at this point, so he's (needlessly in many ways) living with guilt on top of guilt on top of guilt. That's not being a "sad sack", that's genuinely tragic - for both Tony himself and for Annie. [* - In other words, "manpain" my foot...  ] |
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Post by fish on Oct 27, 2017 15:06:09 GMT
Cue Surma using her telekinesis to separate the two?
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Post by ohthatone on Oct 27, 2017 15:08:31 GMT
. -From Annie to Renard to Eggman, HAHA, probably because I'm working on about 3 hrs of sleep, but now I see Dr. Eggman popping in the comic to give his 2 cents.  |
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Post by gunnerscrag on Oct 27, 2017 15:32:00 GMT
After reading the wiki to remember some stuff, I wonder if Mr Thorn would randomly appear to stop them since 1)he's still eggy eggs teacher/mentor and B) he was the one who wanted to help him control his temper in the first place
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Post by linkzeldi on Oct 27, 2017 16:06:56 GMT
Are we not supposed to be sympathizing with Elgamore in this situation? Because Surma's decision to cheat on him and then suddenly dump him isn't just his fault for "never being around" especially since there's no reason that ever justifies cheating.
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Post by todd on Oct 27, 2017 16:27:23 GMT
Hell, Donnie and Anja in general are kind of awful parents in the exact opposite way that Anthony is; they give Kat too much freedom and almost no supervision. . You could make a similar observation about the Court in general to the students; it allows them to go wandering about, breaking curfew, getting into dangerous situations (look at that cruise ship, for that matter; no adult supervisors on board). And I think it's not so surprising when you look at the nature of the Court. This is a multi-generational enterprise to achieve some big scientific goals. The students are being trained to continue where the current generation of scientists in the Court left off, toiling to accomplish whatever they're striving for. And so the Court has to see to it that the next generation will have the correct mind-set to pursue that enterprise. The last thing it would want would be to plant in their heads the thought "This experiment is way too dangerous. I shouldn't be doing it." Because what happens if they grow up and think the same thing about the ether-experiments at the power plant, or the Omega Project (whatever it is)? What if they decide that the Court's goals are a really bad idea and leave, meaning nobody to take up after the current generation of adults at the Court pass on? So the Court has to allow those youthful escapades to continue - stepping in if the student got caught (with the clear lesson being "Don't break the rules" but "Don't get caught breaking them" - to ensure that they'll be good, when they become adults, of covering up any ugly schemes that the Court decides to embark on but doesn't want people knowing about) or if (as in Annie's case) they're becoming too much of an inconvenience to the Court - but otherwise tolerating them, because it'll be preparing them for what they'll be doing as adults. In a sense, the adults at the Court are themselves rule-breakers (ready to do anything from committing a double murder to keep the forest-folk out, to deceiving a talking fox with etheric abilities so that they can capture and control him, to manipulating a broken man into carrying out their "rein in the Carver girl" in such a way that when Coyote shows up and starts knocking buildings down, they can shove said broken man to the front as a living shield and cry "It's his fault! Go after him and leave us alone!"). They certainly don't want a repeat of the incident where someone stands up and walks out of the meeting-room, telling them "You know how I feel about this abhorrent plan of yours. Count me out of the proceedings." And the best way to ensure against that is to educate them in such a way that they're not likely to take a response towards whatever big projects or schemes the Court is coming up with is "I don't think that's a good idea. It's dangerous/immoral." So maybe it's not such a surprise that Kat's being given free rein in her project. Discourage her against it, and you might discourage her against whatever the Court would be hoping her to do when she grows up. I doubt that the things the Court's doing are any less dangerous than Kat's tinkering around with new bodies for robots. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Oct 27, 2017 16:31:12 GMT
Are we not supposed to be sympathizing with Elgamore in this situation? Because Surma's decision to cheat on him and then suddenly dump him isn't just his fault for "never being around" especially since there's no reason that ever justifies cheating. We're not supposed to sympathize with anyone here. This is one point in time in a relationship that was, apparently, a little rocky and today is the day when things changed. For better or for worse, this is how it happened. If you've ever been in or been close to a relationship that was slowly falling apart, especially when the two involved were somewhat in denial about it or not ready to make the change out of fear or inertia, then you know that there's no good way for it to end. Relationships are messy things, especially when they don't work out. And people do awful things because the time for doing the right thing in the right way has already passed. It gets uglier if the people involved are impulsive, or have issues with anger management, or aren't good at expressing their feelings. I've seen a scenario similar to this one play out. Anyone expecting this to be pretty, or for any of the people involved to be likable or sympathetic, has blinders on. |
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 27, 2017 17:24:14 GMT
Tony doesn't have anyone like Kat in his life at this point I mean, technically, he does have Kat in his life at this point, so... Must have had something on his shirt. Like, say, Surma's perfume? (I'm sorry, I'll show myself out) |
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Post by faiiry on Oct 27, 2017 17:51:28 GMT
I just thought of something. It's just a silly thought and probably means nothing, so bear with me. 1) Anthony plans a trip to the jungle. Maybe these trips are a regular thing with him; maybe they're not. During the whole chapter, he seems like he knows what's he's doing, so I'm going to assume he goes on these types of trips fairly often. 2) Surma goes with him. This isn't a problem, either for her or for the Court. 3) Surma dumps James for Tony because James is never around - he's always off training. Anyone see the potential problem with this picture?? Surma dumps a guy who's always off on trips... in favor of another guy who also likes taking trips. I'm thinking she made a very hasty choice and didn't think it through. And what's more, Surma could potentially have gone with Eglamore. We don't know where Eggers is, exactly, on this page - but it's significant that Jones is with him. Eggers is canonically allowed to take his lady friends along with him on trips. My theory takes a lot of leaps and assumptions, and probably is incorrect, but boils down to this: Surma dumped a guy who's never around, in favor of another guy who might also never be around, but she could possibly have just gone with Eglamore while he trained and hung out with him, which would have avoided this whole mess. Surma might have made a huge mistake. |
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Post by frogspawned on Oct 27, 2017 18:28:28 GMT
[Surma] could possibly have just gone with Eglamore while he trained and hung out with him, which would have avoided this whole mess. It's possible, but I got the impression that the society of dragonriders or whatever were more protective of their secrets than that. |
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Post by lunaleaf on Oct 27, 2017 18:32:08 GMT
Surma dumps a guy who's always off on trips... in favor of another guy who also likes taking trips. I'm thinking she made a very hasty choice and didn't think it through. Keeping fairly neutral in all this, but I would like to chime in on that point. The difference between Eglamore's 'trips' and Anthony's is simply that Surma is allowed to be involved. Whenever James goes somewhere, Surma can't follow him. They don't have any contact for months at a time, and that's a lot of stress on a relationship. With Tony, Surma can go with him. He's shown that he's willing to share that part of his life with her and that he trusts her to work alongside him. The way Surma's gone about this shift in her relationships leaves something to be desired, but I can't say that I don't understand or sympathise with the decision itself. Surma doesn't strike me as the type who likes to be excluded for her own safety, and I get the impression that James has done a lot of that. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 27, 2017 18:49:48 GMT
I guess I'm in the minority, but "You were never around" seems like a decent enough reason to end a relationship to me, especially at that age. It seems like they're was little to no contact between the two when they were separated, and that can leave someone feeling like they're more in a relationship with the idea of a person than an actual person. Surma needs to think of what she wants for her own life, and it seems like someone who's away so much isn't it. I think just being there can be hugely important for a relationship, and I don't think that makes anyone shallow. This is especially true for when relationships are just in the space of continuing on because it's more familiar and comfortable than not. Distance can really have an impact. Yep. Simple proximity is one of the biggest reasons people get together in my humble opinion; I've said that before on this forum. And doubtless Eggers has extra-curricular activities in addition to being in the Dragon-Slayer club. Dunno if Surma goes into the Wood regularly at this point but she may have medium classes (with Jones?) and if Eggman becomes a protector then he'd be escorting her and it wouldn't surprise me that was part of the reason he signed up. They're both busy. And Anthony is busy too, as faiiry noted, and probably doesn't socialize much with the gang. So everybody's busy. But in the beginning of the multi-week trip Surma's happily dreaming of Eggers. Doesn't seem like she's bemoaning his chronic absence at that point. Sure, it can be said that if Eggers was truly awesome then she'd feel like waiting, and wouldn't want to go on extended voyages on a whim, but is that reasonable or a rationalization? And yeah, I remember back in middle school when everybody broke up at the end of the school year, hooked up with someone else for summer vacation, and then broke up with them when the new school year started. Dunno but I think these kids are a little old for that still to be the standard operating procedure. I'm also aware that some people's reality is plastic and history gets rewritten to protect people's reps on a regular basis, not just in middle school but all the way through college and afterwards. Some people are just not honest, even with themselves. Stuff that was not a big deal during a happy dating relationship became crisis-level material after the breakup so even if you gathered both sides' versions of events an accurate post-mortem of a relationship is a difficult thing to achieve. And then there's social agendas. Some people don't want other people to date their or their friends' exes, or want to push potential couples together, and version their sets of facts to serve those ends. So right now my take is Surma agreed to the trip with Anthony on impulse and with Eggers out of the picture decided she wanted to start something up with Anthony. There's always things people can do better in relationships. Yep, Eggers could have spent more time with her. Or done other things better. But Surma certainly didn't have to go on this trip. |
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Post by machiavelli33 on Oct 27, 2017 19:31:39 GMT
Are we not supposed to be sympathizing with Elgamore in this situation? We're not supposed to sympathize with anyone here. Alternately, we can sympathize with everybody. I've certainly been in...nearly everyone's position, in that situation, including Donnie and Anja's. I haven't been in Tony's position, where I had to watch two people break up over me, though. But I've been through enough different parts of this to know that while taking sides is understandable, it ultimately isn't fair to anyone involved unless you already have some predisposition. And I like all the characters, so. |
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Post by maxptc on Oct 27, 2017 20:08:41 GMT
So....what's cheating to you guys? Is it black and white? Its on a spectrum in my opinion. Some cheating is evil, some is just handling things poorly. This feels like the latter to me.
I get it, Surma and James were dating, and she moved on to Tony due largely to proximity. That is very rude. But, hypothetically, what if she decided she was done with James on the flight or before that? Does she still owe James a face to face break up before she starts looking elsewhere? That's weird to me, they aren't married, this is highschool. She told him ASAP which is kinda all you can do in this situation. Being expected to wait any period of time to resume romance after a relationship is over is silly to me. Had Surma kept Tony on the down low and continued dating James, I'd be on the "how dare she, what a cheater" page. But this kind of cheating shares more with handling a breakup poorly then being unfaithful, at least in my view of things.
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Post by jda on Oct 27, 2017 20:08:59 GMT
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Post by faiiry on Oct 27, 2017 20:27:39 GMT
So....what's cheating to you guys? Is it black and white? Its on a spectrum in my opinion. Some cheating is evil, some is just handling things poorly. This feels like the latter to me. I get it, Surma and James were dating, and she moved on to Tony due largely to proximity. That is very rude. But, hypothetically, what if she decided she was done with James on the flight or before that? Does she still owe James a face to face break up before she starts looking elsewhere? That's weird to me, they aren't married, this is highschool. She told him ASAP which is kinda all you can do in this situation. Being expected to wait any period of time to resume romance after a relationship is over is silly to me. Had Surma kept Tony on the down low and continued dating James, I'd be on the "how dare she, what a cheater" page. But this kind of cheating shares more with handling a breakup poorly then being unfaithful, at least in my view of things. This is exactly what I feel about it. It seems like the relationship was already on the rocks, and Tony turning out to be an awesome guy (whose hair sort of goes up when he's in the jungle?) was the final straw. I still think Surma was kind of a jerk for breaking up with Eggman in front of everyone, but in her defense, she DID dump him as soon as she got the chance. She didn't drag things out, or try and date both of them at once. She sort of did the right thing. |
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Post by bedinsis on Oct 27, 2017 20:32:19 GMT
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Post by snowflake on Oct 27, 2017 20:56:43 GMT
I'm super happy we've opened up this debate again, but really now. You gloss over a lot of things to defend Tony. Tony gets credit for leaving Annie with his friends at the Court, but no part of the blame for the fact her education was neglected and she was allowed to wander into dangerous situations on their watch, or for the fact that she ended up being the only one who was punished for the resulting inconsistency in her upbringing. He only came back for Annie's benefit. He did not want to be beholden to the Court at all: so saying that only Annie was punished for her neglect of her studies, her seeking of danger and her insolence towards the Court's authority strikes me as a little disingenuous. Not the point. The point is: no adult kept an eye on Annie's studies in three years. She was allowed to meet Coyote and Ysengrin, live with Renard and do whatever. Tonyes back and reverses all of the previous decisions on a dime. Do the adults who let Annie go unsupervised for years get any blame for it? Does Tony get any blame for dumping Annie with adults who either made terrible decisions or weren't clear on what was expected of them with respect to her? No and no. Instead, Annie gets treated as a child when it comes to punishments and subordination, and like a grown-up when it comes to having anyone actually be responsible for her. He did not want to be beholden to the Court at all Sounds like leaving his only child with the court wasn't the best idea for him, then. |
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Post by tc on Oct 27, 2017 20:58:44 GMT
Sounds like leaving his only child with the court wasn't the best idea for him, then. But if it was Surma's decision that Annie attend school at the Court before she died, you could understand why Tony would abide by that wish, no? |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 27, 2017 22:05:16 GMT
So....what's cheating to you guys? Is it black and white? Its on a spectrum in my opinion. Some cheating is evil, some is just handling things poorly. This feels like the latter to me. Not evil, but not right either. If that sounds harsh I ask again to anyone, why not keep things casual as opposed to a more steady relationship to determine if you can handle the bad along with the good (i.e. putting up with a time of long distance) and want to become exclusive? |
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Post by youwiththeface on Oct 27, 2017 22:31:21 GMT
So....what's cheating to you guys? Is it black and white? Its on a spectrum in my opinion. Some cheating is evil, some is just handling things poorly. This feels like the latter to me. I don't think cheating is necessarily evil, I think it's always wrong and never just 'handling things poorly'. All you've got to do is break up with someone first before you screw around with someone else. It's not hard. Are we not supposed to be sympathizing with Elgamore in this situation? Because Surma's decision to cheat on him and then suddenly dump him isn't just his fault for "never being around" especially since there's no reason that ever justifies cheating. We're not supposed to sympathize with anyone here. This is one point in time in a relationship that was, apparently, a little rocky and today is the day when things changed. For better or for worse, this is how it happened. Well then I must be screwing something up because I sympathize with Eggers. He shouldn't have hit Tony, but he's easily the most sympathetic of the three right now. We'd like to think that we're better than this. That human beings are better than this. That they're logical, and can look at situations like what Tony and James and Surma and Antimony are going through ...and react reasonably, rationally - or that we could even *judge* them reasonably, or rationally. I'm better than this. I wouldn't cheat on somebody, nor would I hit someone for cheating. Not saying I'm great or anything; you don't have to be great to avoid that particular pitfall. Also, when speaking of "abusive behaviour" we're talking about a *behavioural pattern* (or patterns). Tony was mean to Annie precisely *once* that we've seen, and we later learned that he was under considerable duress to do so Being mean to a kid isn't the only way a parent can abuse a child. Neglect falls under that umbrella too. And it's that neglect plus that unbelievably selfish treatment of her once he re-enters her life that makes a pattern. Also, fuck his duress. You're a grown up and a parent, Tony. Get the fuck over it. I guess I'm in the minority, but "You were never around" seems like a decent enough reason to end a relationship to me, especially at that age. It's absolutely a decent reason to end a relationship. But that's not what Surma did. She got together with Tony and then ended the relationship. She screwed up the order. |
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ag0id
New Member
Nyoom!
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Post by ag0id on Oct 27, 2017 22:41:30 GMT
I strongly identify with Tony so I can't help but like him at least a little bit. He's one of the only characters in Gunnerkrigg Court that I get on an emotional level. I finally bit the bullet and made an account just to come and agree with you! Seeing some of the angry (and sometimes almost violent) reactions to Tony on these threads has shaken me up… I can’t help but wonder if people would react to me in the same way if we ever met. Maybe it seems obvious to me because I deal with a lot of the same issues, but guys, Tony has anxiety. He’s not a sociopath, and he’s certainly not out to be a terrible person on purpose – in fact, he knows perfectly well when he’s acting wrongly and feels horrible about it. Anxiety manifests in different ways for everyone, but for both myself and Tony, when we feel it, we clam up, shut down, and start overanalyzing. I’m sure everyone recalls Donny in Chapter 37: “The point is, with Tony, even the smallest thing can carry the greatest weight.” Tony is acutely aware of how his anxiety makes him come off to others and thus spends a lot of time analyzing the world around him and trying to piece together the “right” way to approach everything. He would much rather be silent than possibly say something “out of line” and spend the next hours/days/weeks beating himself up over it. Really, he’s at a loss on what constitutes “out of line” to begin with because that’s what anxiety (specifically social anxiety) does to you: you just don’t have the instinct for what a “normal” reaction is, and you constantly second-guess yourself and have to question whether you’re acting within an acceptable range of emotion or not. As to why he can act so differently around certain people or in certain scenarios, think of it this way: when you’re tired (like really tired, say around exams or before a big deadline), you’re more likely to have lowered inhibitions, right? Say or do things that aren’t how you usually act? With anxiety, your brain is running on overclocked mode all the time trying to keep up with all the external stimuli, and the more there is to analyze and keep track of, the faster you’ll run out of energy. Your brain is always exhausted. It sucks. When we’ve seen Tony in a group, there are usually 4-5 other people around: that’s 4-5 entire human beings to have to keep tabs on, we’re talking body language, eye movements, the conversation, where you can insert yourself in said conversation, how everyone is reacting to everyone else… this is in addition to keeping a constant eye on the general environment, who’s moving in and out of the room, what was that noise, here’s my list of things to do today I have a schedule to adhere to and I’m going to be late for my next thing in 17 minutes so when is an appropriate time to exit this conversation, oh that other person I know is walking by do I say anything to them? do I acknowledge them at all? oh now they’re gone, and most importantly how am I acting, am I coming off okay to these 4-5 entire people, I want to be part of the conversation but there is just so much going on. It’s different for everyone, but that’s what my brain does and I have a feeling Tony is much the same way. Now put him in a tropical forest with one other person. This is an environment he’s clearly comfortable in, he’s been in or around similar places before, and even better there are no people around that will pop out of nowhere suddenly or come and strike up a conversation with you, so all of those things above disappear and your brain can finally relax for once. You only have to keep tabs on yourself and this one other person… conversation becomes way easier when you’re not looking for a chance to jump in and also trying to craft a response but oh no now we’ve moved on to a different topic and it’s too late to say the thing I just thought of damn it. It’s also easier to converse with one person because once you get them talking about themselves, you can sit back and go on autopilot and have fun learning about what makes them tick (which for Tony he seems especially interested in with Surma. Y’all, this isn’t sociopathic behavior. Tony clearly cares about how he comes off to others (see: this conversation with Donny); sociopaths don’t give a flying heck. Sociopaths also don’t give a flying heck if they hurt people or not, where Tony definitely does. This is not apologism for how he treats Annie, in particular (because that was nasty and humiliating and completely undeserved, go take a gd time out Tony), but simply to show that he didn’t do it on purpose; he knows what he did and he hates himself for it, but he can’t bear to bring it up with her because his coping mechanisms suck ass. If he was acting like a responsible, emotionally healthy adult, he would sit down with his daughter and own up to his mistakes (because yes, even adults make mistakes… humans make mistakes), but he is carrying years of guilt and shame and feels like he isn’t good enough to be around Annie at all – he feels like a horrible person who isn’t fit to be the father of such a strong and wonderful young woman (see: all the times he beats himself up about it in this conversation alone) and instead of dealing with it, he just retreats, because it’s easy and it’s what he’s used to. Things can’t hurt you if you put up an emotional wall and don’t talk to anybody and distance yourself from all the friends and family you know, ha ha ha. Not like I have experience with that. :^) I also can’t help but wonder what kind of household he was brought up in, and I wonder if that will ever be touched on. I bet it played a big role in why he’s like this. (Calling it now, he’s totally an only child.) Anyway, gold star if you managed to get all the way through this mess. I have a lot of feelings about this/fictional portrayals of mental health issues in general. |
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yinglung
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It's only a tatter of mime.
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Post by yinglung on Oct 27, 2017 23:16:07 GMT
Not the point. The point is: no adult kept an eye on Annie's studies in three years. She was allowed to meet Coyote and Ysengrin, live with Renard and do whatever. Tonyes back and reverses all of the previous decisions on a dime. Do the adults who let Annie go unsupervised for years get any blame for it? Does Tony get any blame for dumping Annie with adults who either made terrible decisions or weren't clear on what was expected of them with respect to her? No and no. Instead, Annie gets treated as a child when it comes to punishments and subordination, and like a grown-up when it comes to having anyone actually be responsible for her. It's worth noting here that Gunnerkrigg Court has always been a boarding school. Annie has just as much adult supervision as anyone else who doesn't have relatives among the faculty. Regarding meeting Coyote and Ysengrin, she actively broke school rules and committed the diplomatic blunder of sending a robot into the forest, and had the bad luck to get a tick tock bird damaged on the forest side. This gave Coyote enough leverage to worm his way into meeting her, and making her an offer she couldn't refuse, and the court couldn't forbid. The court and especially Anja and Jones tried to prepare her for being a person of interest to what is essentially a physical god. The court almost certainly knew about her increasingly reckless behavior, and cheating on her homework, but all that made her a good hostage for getting Tony to do what they want. It's worth noting that Annie tends to disregard voices of reason, the few that there are. Heck, she even stole from her best friend's parents. She would view pretty much anyone they could have discipline her as an obstacle, and not someone to obey. It's actually good that they bring in Tony in, to treat her like the child she is. Otherwise, they would have to punish her like an adult who is gaining power, and is being manipulated by immensely powerful, ideologically opposed entity. EDIT: This is a really good explanation of Tony, and is accurate to my experiences as well. |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 27, 2017 23:22:36 GMT
I strongly identify with Tony so I can't help but like him at least a little bit. He's one of the only characters in Gunnerkrigg Court that I get on an emotional level. I finally bit the bullet and made an account just to come and agree with you! Seeing some of the angry (and sometimes almost violent) reactions to Tony on these threads has shaken me up… I can’t help but wonder if people would react to me in the same way if we ever met. Maybe it seems obvious to me because I deal with a lot of the same issues, but guys, Tony has anxiety. He’s not a sociopath, and he’s certainly not out to be a terrible person on purpose – in fact, he knows perfectly well when he’s acting wrongly and feels horrible about it. And I myself can relate to social anxiety, but once a kid enters the picture, changes have to be made no matter how hard it is. Medication if possible or therapy to help curb the anxiety. There's room to make mistakes or even some selfish time to yourself, but the fact is parents have more experience and time to mature, plus they have the capacity to make choices that the kids can't. Parents for example can choose to take measures to delay having kids or preventing concept completely, or and I have yet to see a rebuttal to this, but relinquish the kid to someone who can be trusted to give them the care you can't give. And other than putting more stock in their pride, I have yet to see any reason provided as to why Annie for example wasn't entrusted to the Donlans to begin with rather than lucking into meeting them.But kids don't have a say when or whom they're born to. |
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yinglung
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It's only a tatter of mime.
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Post by yinglung on Oct 27, 2017 23:36:30 GMT
I finally bit the bullet and made an account just to come and agree with you! Seeing some of the angry (and sometimes almost violent) reactions to Tony on these threads has shaken me up… I can’t help but wonder if people would react to me in the same way if we ever met. Maybe it seems obvious to me because I deal with a lot of the same issues, but guys, Tony has anxiety. He’s not a sociopath, and he’s certainly not out to be a terrible person on purpose – in fact, he knows perfectly well when he’s acting wrongly and feels horrible about it. And I myself can relate to social anxiety, but once a kid enters the picture, changes have to be made no matter how hard it is. Medication if possible or therapy to help curb the anxiety. There's room to make mistakes or even some selfish time to yourself, but the fact is parents have more experience and time to mature, plus they have the capacity to make choices that the kids can't. Parents for example can choose to take measures to delay having kids or preventing concept completely, or and I have yet to see a rebuttal to this, but relinquish the kid to someone who can be trusted to give them the care you can't give. And other than putting more stock in their pride, I have yet to see any reason provided as to why Annie for example wasn't entrusted to the Donlans to begin with rather than lucking into meeting them.But kids don't have a say when or whom they're born to. It's very simple. Gunnerkrigg Court is a boarding school. It's pretty normal to leave your kid at such a place, for a given value of normal. However, doing so after her mother passed away, and not visiting at all is not normal, and is neglectful. Considering what we know about how much Tony sacrificed on his orpheus-like spirit quest, it's safe to say that after his wife died, he was not in a rational state of mind, and thus did not make all the arrangements he ought to. |
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Post by maxptc on Oct 27, 2017 23:41:10 GMT
So....what's cheating to you guys? Is it black and white? Its on a spectrum in my opinion. Some cheating is evil, some is just handling things poorly. This feels like the latter to me. Not evil, but not right either. If that sounds harsh I ask again to anyone, why not keep things casual as opposed to a more steady relationship to determine if you can handle the bad along with the good (i.e. putting up with a time of long distance) and want to become exclusive? My answer to you is age. We're they adults and this was the third time this kinda love triangle happened it might be a reflection of character, but young love is very causal, regardless of what boundaries you set. Screwing it up isn't something you should do, but it is a common experience regardless. Not knowing better isn't just understandable, anything else would be odd. What kind of teenagers are good at relationshiping? The kind that are really 80 year old vampires, that's who. Also by your same logic, why enter a relationship at all if you can't commit the time? They should have known better right? |
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Post by maxptc on Oct 27, 2017 23:55:04 GMT
I don't think cheating is necessarily evil, I think it's always wrong and never just 'handling things poorly'. All you've got to do is break up with someone first before you screw around with someone else. It's not hard. I mean for us? Sure, text and phones are awesome. For someone who's partner is away with no means of communication for long periods of time, it is actually kinda hard. And while I agree it's tacky to move on before letting the other person know, once you're done you're done. You don't have to continue putting your libdo on hold for the sake of someone you're now leaving. More so when that was one of the things that led to the relationship ending. |
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 27, 2017 23:56:13 GMT
Not evil, but not right either. If that sounds harsh I ask again to anyone, why not keep things casual as opposed to a more steady relationship to determine if you can handle the bad along with the good (i.e. putting up with a time of long distance) and want to become exclusive? My answer to you is age. We're they adults and this was the third time this kinda love triangle happened it might be a reflection of character, but young love is very causal, regardless of what boundaries you set. I'm asking why more couples in general, especially adults (as age doesn't always gauge one's ability to think or behave) don't make use of the option to go the casual route as it allows them to try different partners legitimately. I don't know. Even if say you can't just model your life after someone else, you can learn from their mistakes and consequences as you would your own from time to time. What's more, as cliched as it is, just think of the golden rule. Would you want someone intentionally/unintentionally toying around with your affections? If no, then why the hell would you think it's acceptable to do the deed yourself. Some kids/teens do behave better than others to be fair, and all to often those who continue to make the same mistakes without improving do so because statements like "kids will be kids" or "we all make mistakes" is often used as a reason by some not to even try changing. |
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Post by tc on Oct 28, 2017 0:00:31 GMT
Being mean to a kid isn't the only way a parent can abuse a child. Neglect falls under that umbrella too. And it's that neglect plus that unbelievably selfish treatment of her once he re-enters her life that makes a pattern. On what basis are you assuming neglect? The whole *point* is that we don't know what the hell he has been trying to achieve from the start of the story up until now. What we do know is that Tony is hell-bent on circumventing the Court's surveillance capabilities, such that his house is the one location within the "campus" where (to the best of his knowledge) the Court can't spy on him. We know that whatever his intent, he found some entities living within a cave who offered him a chance to see Surma again for the price of giving up his right forearm - and with it, his life's work in becoming an eminent surgeon in the outside world - a sacrifice he was willing to make. When he discovered the antenna made from his bones put Annie in danger, it broke him completely. When the Court found him, they nursed him back to health, confronted him with what Annie had done in his absence and expressed an intent to exile her permanently (and in doing so make any hope of curing her impossibly remote) on the day she was supposed to graduate... Unless he was willing to be the one to rein her in and bring her back under their control. Admittedly the above is only a theory of mine, but if it's even half-close to what's happening then the guy is willing to accept his own daughter hating him as long as it gives him a chance to save her life. |
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rhiu
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Post by rhiu on Oct 28, 2017 0:07:28 GMT
And I myself can relate to social anxiety, but once a kid enters the picture, changes have to be made no matter how hard it is. Medication if possible or therapy to help curb the anxiety. There's room to make mistakes or even some selfish time to yourself, but the fact is parents have more experience and time to mature, plus they have the capacity to make choices that the kids can't. I can't speak for ag0id but at least for my post about how I think Tony operates I certainly wasn't excusing his behavior. Allowing anxiety and poor coping mechanisms to control your life and hurt others is still pretty bad... but I think trying to understand why Tony is doing what he's doing is important (and not just out of sociopathy or lack of emotion - like ag0id I originally made this account because I empathize with Tony and wanted to respond to posters who were labeling him as a sociopath but then there was the account approval delay and I got distracted). I'm also wondering if he DID do what you suggested - he removed himself from her life. I'm not sure if it was entirely because he didn't think of Annie at all or if it was because he thought Annie better off without him. I occasionally self-isolate because I think reaching out to those closest to me is bothering them... and that's mild compared to Tony with his 300% more shame and guilt about not being able to save Surma, it's possible he thought leaving was better than any alternative. Or it could be a combination of both isolation and obsession. Also it's possible that he would've been a good parent with Surma as a counterbalance... As an aside... has mental health ever been shown to be even remotely important to the court? Tony already strikes me as someone who wouldn't get help without a lot of persuasion, but I'm wondering if the entire Court culture would view that as some kind of sign of weakness or not. If he had actually gone to some kind of grief counselor and social therapist post-Surma and tried to get his life together, would the Court have abused that? |
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