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Surma
May 27, 2008 7:06:47 GMT
Post by silvercat on May 27, 2008 7:06:47 GMT
I wonder if we could gather what we know about Antimony's mother. She's a bit mysterious (what else is new at Gunnerkrigg Court, eh?) but she IS Annie's mother. Don't we all revolve around our mothers like a planet around a star ? 1. Seeing the psychopomps appears a hereditary trait. Do we actually know this, or is this just assumption on my part? It ~could~ be co-incidence that both Surma and Annie are mediums... 2. She died of an unspecified, long disease. Annie first meets Muut in the hospital when she's about five or six. In the present day, she comes to Gunnerkrigg Court, a handful of years later, just after her mother's death. Have we got any more info on that? 3. Coyote hinted at an involvement between Surma and Eglamore. This sparks different questions : - Why did Surma prefer the emotionally distant Anthony Carver to the hunky Eglamore? (Sub-question : what do we ~really~ know about Annie's father? He did leave his child the instant his wife died, but don't we all cope in different ways? The other information we got through Eglamore, his rival. Not exactly unbiased, eh?)
- When Coyote discovers that Annie is Surma's child, he exclaims "Eglamore, you hound". Is that the British, mythological version of the accolade rappers write as "dawg" ? In that case it's some sort of signal of respect, isn't it? Eglamore got what he wanted in the end. Or are we to take this literally : Perhaps Eglamore pursued Surma like a hound baying for blood and Surma was not pleased with his attentions?
- ...
4. Surma told her daughter "I will never send you into danger". Is this a true promise? Perhaps Surma meant "physical danger"... ? any other points?
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Surma
May 27, 2008 11:18:57 GMT
Post by eightyfour on May 27, 2008 11:18:57 GMT
I wonder if the name "Surma" is a reference to the entity of the same name from finnish mythology. Now that would give the character that we only know as a loving mother so far a bit of a twist to the dark side. I'm also interested in the connection between Surma and Reynardine (who isn't?), and whether the symbol on his forehead, which looks quite similar to the Antimony sign, and which he already has before occupying her toy wolf, has any significance in that matter.
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neal
Full Member
Posts: 166
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Surma
May 27, 2008 11:46:56 GMT
Post by neal on May 27, 2008 11:46:56 GMT
I'm gonna say that "Eglamore, you hound!" isn't really a sign of respect, its saying... 'you dog', its a colloquialism that means 'you scoundrel', generally calling someone a dog would be an insult, but coyote used it as a vaguely congratulatory way. So... uh... kind of what you said, but with a different flavor. Coyote is saying "Haha, sneaky bugger, good job", basically.
We also have Jones' statement that Annie's father is emotionally distant, but as that was being used to test her anger response, is it a true option? But it would only hurt because it is true. Those are the things that get you really angry, aren't they? The things you suspect are true but don't want to believe?
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Surma
May 27, 2008 11:52:33 GMT
Post by silvercat on May 27, 2008 11:52:33 GMT
well, death and dog... in that way the finnish myth fits with Gunnerkrigg Court...
Also, as far as I can tell, Kalevala's Surma is a guardian of borders, a rigid enforcer of order : is that so very far away from what we can assume about the medium Surma ?
aside : I guess I'll have to read the archives again : does Reynardine really have the alchemy sign before he goes into the toy?
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Surma
May 27, 2008 12:01:54 GMT
Post by eightyfour on May 27, 2008 12:01:54 GMT
does Reynardine really have the alchemy sign before he goes into the toy? He does, see here. The first panel is the instant he leaves Sivo's body, before he even attempts to snatch Annie's. The symbol on his forehead is clearly not the Antimony-sign, but it is similar (a cross with a "U" above). See the next page for a direct comparison of the two symbols.
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Surma
May 27, 2008 15:51:40 GMT
Post by nikita on May 27, 2008 15:51:40 GMT
"Is Surma's name a reference to the mythological entity of the same name?" No, it's a name sometimes used for Stibnite when it's used as a cosmetic. Kohl is another name.
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Surma
May 27, 2008 16:23:44 GMT
Post by cenit on May 27, 2008 16:23:44 GMT
Regarding Silvercat post: 2. Annie told Kat that it was Surma's wish that Annie went to the Court after she passed away, so it's no coincidence, but Surma's plan. 3. Regarding Egglamore, we also know from the knife that he carries, a present from Surma, that they were close at some point. Regarding Anthony, I don't know where we get that he is emotionally distant... we do know from the Donlans and Egglamore that he "tends to go away alone, sometimes for months at a time" and that he is quite untrackable. And from Jones we get that he is a scientific type... he throws the devoid of emotions to upset Annie. Annie seem to have a normal relationship with him.. as child he called him dad (she stopped herself and said father while talking to Muut)... and they used to talk (he told Annie that Mrs. Tolinka was "leaving")... also she inmediatly call him after the roof incident, and waited for him during holydays... also she seems quite upset that he is not around. 4. You know, I think that Annie's confidence cames at some point from that... her mother sent her to the Court... so she doesn't really feel in danger there. 84 and Neal: Yeah, Surma's and Rey relationship is quite mysterious right now... but there are a couple of things: 1. When Rey realized that Annie was Surma's daughter, he knew (somehow) that Surma was dead... why? Also, he cried at that moment. 2. Coyote's comment: you could never resist a pretty girl... Renard. And finally, I think that the symbol of Rey is not the one in the toy... he himself says that it was because of the symbol that he now belonged to her... so maybe the toy was marked in some kind of manner... which also explains why little Rey shows no mark, and big wolf form does That's all for now
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Surma
May 27, 2008 22:34:07 GMT
Post by Mezzaphor on May 27, 2008 22:34:07 GMT
So many interesting points. When Rey attempted to possess Annie, the symbol on his fire-fox body was one of the alchemists' symbols for mercury. It's possible the antimony symbol on plushy-Rey's forehead was on the wolf-doll before, but I had assumed that the symbol magically appeared there after Rey took the toy, to symbolize Annie's control over him. There's so much we don't know about the previous generation at Gunnerkrigg. And considering how much Tom's developed the characters just over the first 14 chapters (1 semester of in-story time), it's likely that Eggers, Anthony, Surma, Anja and Donald's early teen selves were markedly different from their present-day selves. I agree with cenit that Anthony's probably nowhere near as bad as Jones makes him out to be. Note how, when Jones starts bad-mouthing him, Annie responds with "Are you trying to make me angry?" immediately after the "completely devoid of emotion" jab. Almost as if that bit were so off the mark that it tipped Annie off about Jones' intention. It may have been the fact that Annie was wearing the antimony pendant that tipped Rey off about Surma's death. It's open to interpretation.
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Surma
May 27, 2008 23:32:10 GMT
Post by cenit on May 27, 2008 23:32:10 GMT
the pendant tipped him that it was Surma's daughter, which meant (and I interpret that Rey says if Surma's daugther is here, then it means) that Surma is dead. The real mystery, of course, is why he make that assumption (he seemed quite certain about it) linky here .... god how different do the girls look at that point
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Surma
May 28, 2008 1:04:57 GMT
Post by AluK on May 28, 2008 1:04:57 GMT
I feel that the pendant is some kind of prized heirloom, one Surma wouldn't just give to someone like that. Maybe it was gift from Reynardine himself.
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Surma
May 31, 2008 8:04:24 GMT
Post by silvercat on May 31, 2008 8:04:24 GMT
I wonder what the purpose of the ingredient antimony was, in alchemy. Does anyone know? From what I've found, it's no co-incidence that Surma named her daughter Antimony, rather than, say, Aluminium *wink* There seem to be quite a few parallels between the ingredient and our heroine : - antimony is heat resistant ~ Surma's daughter shows a lot of grace under pressure
- antimony is used for medicinal purposes even in the 21st C ~ Antimony mediates and helps
- antimony is useful in modern electrics, as well as in ancient alchemy ~ as a strongwilled medium, our heroine might actually bridge the chasm between the scientific world of the Court (with electric maglev trains, in case you were doubting) and the ethereal mysteries of the Woods (think of transformation : base metal to gold in alchemy, suicide fairies into students in the woods, old wolves in new wooden monsters...)
- antimony can also refer to a certain kind of paradox ~ no explantion needed, eh?
As such I'd always considered the pendant a beautiful gift from a doting mother to her beloved child. In my interpretation, Surma left when she fell ill and promised to either come back when healed or to send her daughter upon her death. Reynardine knew of this promise... *wanders off to ponder more*
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Surma
Jun 4, 2008 19:00:17 GMT
Post by armonis on Jun 4, 2008 19:00:17 GMT
Antimony represents the animal side, or beast within human beings.
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Surma
Jun 6, 2008 16:27:48 GMT
Post by silvercat on Jun 6, 2008 16:27:48 GMT
I wonder why a mother would name her child after an alchemical symbol that refers to the beast in men. *frowns in puzzlement* I do seem to be getting obsessed with Gunnerkrigg Court : my mum's reading a magazin and I leap over the table to check out Geert Puyseleyr's swarovski's creation... Doesn't it look a little like the antimony symbol ?
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Surma
Jun 6, 2008 21:17:17 GMT
Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 6, 2008 21:17:17 GMT
I wonder why a mother would name her child after an alchemical symbol that refers to the beast in men. *frowns in puzzlement* Maybe she noticed the trend in her own maiden name -- Surma Stibnite -- and wanted to continue the theme.
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Surma
Jun 9, 2008 19:30:42 GMT
Post by vexation on Jun 9, 2008 19:30:42 GMT
Doesn't it look a little like the antimony symbol ? What, the thing on her head? I think it looks more like the transgender symbol. x]
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Surma
Jun 9, 2008 21:22:02 GMT
Post by walkingdust on Jun 9, 2008 21:22:02 GMT
To resume. The symbol Annie inherited is one of the alchemical symbols for Antimony. Reynardine's symbol represents mercury.
I can only arrive to one conclusion: Tom is going to be arrested by Russian authorities for making Red Mercury.
If you get that reference you deserve a pat on the back from your chemistry teacher or a "Avoid getting thrown off a window by the Russian secret service for free." card from Putin.
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Surma
Jun 10, 2008 2:18:19 GMT
Post by watchfanatic on Jun 10, 2008 2:18:19 GMT
It seems to me that we are assuming that Surma And Reynardine had a romantic relationship. It seems to me that Surma (as mediator) would be the only one to understand Reynardine. Reynardine obviously sees Surma in Annie so he would want to protect that last trace of the one person who understood him for all those years.
This seems a more likely scenario than Surma having 3 boyfriend one of which is a soul stealing demon. It may be completely wrong but it seems more unified to me than the other theory's I've seen so far.
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ztad
New Member
Posts: 7
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Surma
Jun 10, 2008 23:31:11 GMT
Post by ztad on Jun 10, 2008 23:31:11 GMT
This seems a more likely scenario than Surma having 3 boyfriend one of which is a soul stealing demon. It may be completely wrong but it seems more unified to me than the other theory's I've seen so far. Conversely, Surma could just have had a lot of guys crushing on her (Eglamore being the prime example) and she never felt the same in return.
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
Posts: 232
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Surma
Jun 12, 2008 6:11:59 GMT
Post by Chrome on Jun 12, 2008 6:11:59 GMT
watchfanatic, that might explain why Reynardine not only stuck with Annie, but gradually became concerned about her well-being despite his well-known dastardly nature. She's already proven some understanding of him that others didn't have. If that's a trait Surma also had, he probably had reason to stick around her as well. In a way, it's his one soft spot: people who seem to really understand, or at least treat him with something akin to decency by his definitions.
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Surma
Jun 12, 2008 6:20:36 GMT
Post by strainofthought on Jun 12, 2008 6:20:36 GMT
I have assumed that Surma named Antimony as she did because that mineral is primarily obtained from the ore Stibnite. A little joke on her part, I figure.
Silvercat, when I looked up Antimony (and by extension, Stibnite- the terms are almost synonymous) I did not read that it was 'heat-resistant'; in fact quite the opposite- it burns so hotly and so brightly that it is used as an ingredient in fireworks.
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Surma
Jun 12, 2008 20:17:07 GMT
Post by silvercat on Jun 12, 2008 20:17:07 GMT
hey, I based my original post mainly on wikipedia *blushes like mad*
there it says there's four types of antimony... and antimony's used in flame-proofing. Upon closer inspection, I did find the fireworks reference too. Versatile mineral, this antimony, like our heroine, eh? ;-)
RE the transgender symbol : if you look closely at Geert Puysseleyr's creation for swarovski, you're probably right. I was just posting this to illustrate that I see Gunnerkrigg Court everywhere ;-)
RE Surma's boyfriends... I don't know what to say, really. To me the key factor that distinguishes Gunnerkrigg Court is the consistent choice for the normal plot line. Well, I mean normal on the level of characters behaving in character - they don't have weird outbursts or incredibly contorted emotional connections. I think the friendship / respect connection between Reynardine and Surma is the most probable one
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zec
New Member
Posts: 8
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Surma
Jun 16, 2008 5:43:17 GMT
Post by zec on Jun 16, 2008 5:43:17 GMT
PROTIP:
Antimony, the title character is an element (51).
Fact: in at least Russian, the same element is called "Сурьма" or "Sur'ma"
NOW YOU KNOW!
Behold, the wonders of Wikipedia!
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Surma
Jun 16, 2008 14:42:36 GMT
Post by silvercat on Jun 16, 2008 14:42:36 GMT
oh.
English Antimony = Russian Surma
I don't know how I feel about that, actually. Sure, my dad named his eldest son after himself, but I've always considered that an odd custom. To give your child your own name in a different form... it's a weird thing, I feel, for a person or character to do. It also makes me suspicious of Surma's back story : won't it echo Antimony's story too closely ??
Still, this is useful information, worthy of much ponderment ;-)
My own most recent observation is : Antimony and Kat both have the puny straight version of their mother's luscious and curly hair.
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Surma
Jun 26, 2008 4:15:21 GMT
Post by Tierra Y Libertad on Jun 26, 2008 4:15:21 GMT
Hrmm...I wonder what Surma/mediation has to do with the ghost at the Annan Waters, a spirit in the middle.
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Surma
Aug 6, 2008 8:03:39 GMT
Post by silvercat on Aug 6, 2008 8:03:39 GMT
we're finding out more and more about the mothers - the friendship repeating itself, the mysterious robots puzzling four girls, the horrible make-up *wink*
anyone notice anything else ?
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CameoAppearance
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Do... do they all think I am stupid and ugly?
Posts: 25
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Surma
Aug 6, 2008 14:15:16 GMT
Post by CameoAppearance on Aug 6, 2008 14:15:16 GMT
My own most recent observation is : Antimony and Kat both have the puny straight version of their mother's luscious and curly hair. Antimony, yes, but Kat's hair is curly too; she just keeps it too short for that to be noticeable. You can see her with long hair here.
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Surma
Aug 26, 2008 10:23:35 GMT
Post by silvercat on Aug 26, 2008 10:23:35 GMT
I had forgotten about Kat's baby-hair --- thanks for refreshing my memory.
I wonder if Anja's comment "our time has passed" refers to Diego's secret connection to Jeanne or if it's to do with Surma's death...
Either way it seems like Annie and Kat are mingling with other students. Perhaps they'll forge friendships now the way Surma and Anja did --- remember that photograph Annie stole ? (don't remember the chapter exactly so can't provide a link)
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Surma
Aug 26, 2008 12:24:33 GMT
Post by penguinfactory on Aug 26, 2008 12:24:33 GMT
Hooray for speculation!
1. Parley is expected to have her father's abilities, so it seems safe to assume that these kinds of things are heridetary in the Gunnerverse.
Or, Surma passed her powers on to Annie deliberately, whih is what killed her. Or Something.
2. One thing that bugs me is why Surma never told Annie she was a medium at the Court- she must have known Annie would find out once she was there.
As to why Surma wanted Annie to go to GC, it might just be because Surma liked it there. There's also the practical matter of a home for Annie- if Surma suspected that Anthony would run off when she died, then Annie would need somewhere to live, since her only home before now has been at a hospital. Surma probably figured that the Donlans and Eggers would be able to look after her.
3. Why did Surma choose Anthony? This is a tricky one, since we know absolutely diddly squat about the guy. The answer to this one likely hinges on the (apparently quite complex) backstory, and until we know more about that it's pointless to speculate.
4. This one is a bit interesting, considering the fact that the Court is plenty dangerous and Surma sent her there. One thing to remember is that Annie was a lot younger when Surma said this- don't all parents lie to their children? Plus, no matter how sincere Surma may have been, there's no way she could keep her promise after her death.
Well, just look at what Annie was like at first. I have no trouble believing that Jone's assesment was entirely accrurate.
That said, I don't think Anthony has abondoned Annie out of his own free will, though- they seem to have had a good, or at least normal, relationship. I think he's on some sort of necessary mission, one that leaves him unable or unwilling to talk to Annie.
This, along with their uncanny similarity and the whole theme naming thing makes me think that Annie's birth wasn't entirely ordinary- ie Annie's existence somehow killed Surma.
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hurf
New Member
Posts: 2
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Surma
Oct 27, 2008 17:17:27 GMT
Post by hurf on Oct 27, 2008 17:17:27 GMT
Everyone's kinda mentioned this in one way or another, but it's worth reiterating: "Is Surma's name a reference to the mythological entity of the same name?" No, it's a name sometimes used for Stibnite when it's used as a cosmetic. Kohl is another name. Just to further the etymological link between Surma and Annie's names, according to the 'pedia: And if we read up on kohl: What I wonder about is why Tom named them this. There seems to be a lot of eye/eye darkening-related things about Gunnerkrigg: Zimmy; the shadow's under Annie/Gamma/Jack's eyes after they come out of Zimmy's world; Annie's and Surma's eye-shadow; the Ticktock birds; the amount of eye-related symbols that appear every now and then; heck, even one of the hyperlink images at the bottom of the main page is Annie's eye. Whether it's a bit of a hint to the type of mythology Tom may be drawing upon, mostly coincidence or just something cool he decided to put in there, it's worth mentioning.
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Surma
Oct 27, 2008 17:50:08 GMT
Post by Per on Oct 27, 2008 17:50:08 GMT
You know in which other work eye symbolism is rampant? Blade Runner!
"And then Jones was a replicant."
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