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Post by Zox Tomana on Sept 21, 2017 4:42:52 GMT
[** - I'm starting to wonder whether that notion has grown out of Sir Jimmy's bitterness and Rey's anger at Tony's absence colouring what we've been told in the past ] To the other stuff: I think keeping Annie alive, in the Court, and safe is *now* Tony's top priority, but I think that *at the time* his main goal was understanding what happened with Surma. Getting answers can be viewed as a way of staying connected to his wife by way of solving the mystery of her death. I guess what I was more trying to say is that he was trying to keep Surma alive in his own life by way of researching what happened to her. But I think we've reached a point where we're just speculating on Tony's inner motivations and this particular thread is no doubt rife with such theories and spinning our own interpretations is basically what we would continue to do here. But to this last statement: YES! And I LOVE IT! This sort of thing is what makes a story world deeper and characters more human. Tony is easily the most contested character both within and without the comic. We're split on him out here, and inside the story you have Donny and Anja on one side with Reynard and James on the other, each offering opinions and information about Tony. These characters aren't the narrator (as per ch. 1, Annie is), so this isn't exactly Unreliable Narrator at work, but we've definitely been working with characters with colored opinions, and those opinions have colored our views of Tony. I feel like there is going to be a point where a lot of these tensions come to a head. We're already getting a bit of that in this chapter: Annie is dealing with her loyalty to her dad in tension to her ignorance of what he's like unguarded, and with understanding the man behind the face she's always seen hung between the views of Rey and Jim, and (mainly) Donny. |
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Post by tc on Sept 21, 2017 6:58:40 GMT
but I think that *at the time* his main goal was understanding what happened with Surma. Getting answers can be viewed as a way of staying connected to his wife by way of solving the mystery of her death. The problem I see with that idea is that I don't believe for a second that Surma would have been happy with Tony pursuing that path as long as the clock was still potentially ticking on Annie. I'd argue it's actually more complicated than that. Donny was and is Tony's oldest and closest friend and yet even he was somewhat blindsided when all contact stopped. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Sept 21, 2017 18:21:59 GMT
but I think that *at the time* his main goal was understanding what happened with Surma. Getting answers can be viewed as a way of staying connected to his wife by way of solving the mystery of her death. The problem I see with that idea is that I don't believe for a second that Surma would have been happy with Tony pursuing that path as long as the clock was still potentially ticking on Annie. Well this wasn't really about what Surma would have wanted, now is it? Surma most likely would have wanted Tony to stay with Annie and raise her himself rather than send her to GC alone. I think people confuse Tony's stoic facade with him possessing Vulcan-like levels of logic and reasonability. He's still human, and after Surma died it's not unreasonable to think his ability to process what would be best, or to think outside himself as to what Surma would have wanted, would be rather heavily colored by his grief and guilt. And in the absence of an external force who has Tony's best interests in mind... those can run people into seemingly extreme and/or unreasonable places. |
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Post by tc on Sept 21, 2017 20:14:45 GMT
Well this wasn't really about what Surma would have wanted, now is it? Surma most likely would have wanted Tony to stay with Annie and raise her himself rather than send her to GC alone. I respectfully disagree. Don't forget that it was Surma's decision to break contact with the Donlans once her decline began, and Tony deferred to and respected her wishes in that case. On a more speculative note, based on what we know about Surma's personality I'd be inclined to think that there's no way she'd tolerate not having a say in what happened to their little girl in the event of her death (and it's not like Surma and Tony didn't have around ten years to plan ahead). As I said above, my "Wild" theory is that Surma and Tony made a pact that if Surma didn't survive, Tony was to continue his research in the hopes of sparing Annie the same fate. As such I don't think he went looking for the 'pomps to bring Surma back; I think - having exhausted the possibilities of medical science - Tony was hoping they'd have some knowledge of the etheric plane which might give him a clue as to how Annie might be "cured". [EDIT : Before I forget, another reason I'm leaning further towards the idea that Surma and Tony made a lot of the decisions together is that the current chapter [Get Lost] is showing us the beginnings of the two of them becoming a good and effective (to say nothing of ador[k]able) little team. A while back I posted my theory that what ultimately led Surma to develop deeper feelings for Tony than she did Jimmy was the fact that Jimmy seemed to be so caught up in being a chivalrous "protector" type that he ended up making Surma feel like she was being shut out. She hinted that she was getting frustrated by Jimmy always being away on training in the flashback at the end of "S1", and for those who joined the story more recently she did so again at the start of this chapter. Contrast this with Tony, who - while he's done his best to help Surma feel comfortable and did initially offer to do the work himself - took her at her word when she said she wanted in as an active participant, and seems to be encouraging and assisting her where necessary...] |
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clover
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Post by clover on Sept 29, 2017 16:07:57 GMT
I have always read Tony in the same way I can read other compellingly written characters who are defined in relation to their crippling flaws. It's like with Snape: you can't lionize him, you can't demonize him, you have to understand him in relation to whatever has broken him and which he incompletely manages.
In Gunnerkrigg, the symbology is even metaphysically present — when Coyote looks at him upon the spiritual plane, he sees a Broken Man.
So the most important questions involving Tony are if he's ever going to be made whole again — if at some point in the future he may become Kintsukuroi, rather than just Broken. Perhaps he will. Perhaps, like Snape, he'll die broken.
Part of that involves his relationship with Antimony.
And part of that involves the reasons (that we have yet to know or understand!) why he acts so strange and passive and heartless to her and refuses any emotion in front of her or cordial relations.
I have my own theory about that and it's starting to get some pretty strong indication. But it is nothing I could remotely confirm at this point.
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clover
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Post by clover on Sept 29, 2017 16:22:51 GMT
And to keep the idea or reference of kintsukuroi from being too esoteric or obscure, it's where broken ceramic is made whole again with a binding of gold. It's often referenced in platitudes about healing and becoming stronger or more beautiful for virtue of your scars.  |
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Post by saardvark on Sept 29, 2017 17:24:11 GMT
And to keep the idea or reference of kintsukuroi from being too esoteric or obscure, it's where broken ceramic is made whole again with a binding of gold. It's often referenced in platitudes about healing and becoming stronger or more beautiful for virtue of your scars. that really is lovely! had not heard of kintsukuroi before, but it is a very apt metaphor. |
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Post by fish on Sept 29, 2017 17:48:35 GMT
I have my own theory about that and it's starting to get some pretty strong indication. But it is nothing I could remotely confirm at this point. But you could share it and claim some major cookies if it turns out to be accurate.  |
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Post by keef on Sept 29, 2017 22:18:49 GMT
I have my own theory about that and it's starting to get some pretty strong indication. But it is nothing I could remotely confirm at this point. But you could share it and claim some major cookies if it turns out to be accurate. This is WILD spec after all... |
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clover
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Post by clover on Sept 30, 2017 5:14:12 GMT
Very well, but let me know if someone else has already effectively hit on this theory:
Tony knows that Surma's soul (or an inescapable element conjoined with what becomes the soul of a fire elemental hybrid, like Jadzia merged with Dax, lets say) did not die but is passed on to its new body. Tony knows when he looks at Antimony that he is seeing something that his wife transformed into. Something that he used to love as his wife, but is now not an adult he's married to ... it's now a precocious young child, your daughter. This is ... emotionally ... complicated to handle. It is also tremendously awkward. This is not something a human with regular emotional range could handle well. It is certainly not something that a person like Tony, who appears often constrained by a strangely stunted emotional range, could handle well. It is super especially not something we could expect Tony to handle, considering that he is tormented with grief and loss over the death of Surma, and holds himself in some way accountable for not being able to save her.
Now, put yourself in Tony's shoes. You're so bad at this emotional range and reciprocity thing on a good day. But it's really not a good day. It's a day where you're looking at your daughter, which is also in some way your wife, the person that you married and procreated with. You miss your wife dearly but in a way which is hella super not appropriate in context of this being your daughter now. It messes with you. It really super does. You wouldn't do well with this even if you weren't Tony, dealing with Tony's various griefs that have broken him emotionally and torment him mentally to this day. His inability to process any of this and really express any love to his daughter is the product of that. This all makes him a brilliantly flawed character. Like with Brinnie, he shuts down in some way and can't handle it, and his protective response against anything inappropriate is to lock himself off completely from Antimony and intentionally and totally suppress any emotional connective relationship with the daughter-who-he-thinks-is-also-wife.
Like with other characters who are defined principally by how some element of life has broken them and left them a tremendously flawed character (see again, Snape) he becomes polarizing and perplexing. Some people will always defend what he does, some people will utterly loathe him and see him as a total villain (especially if the way in which he is broken mirrors a dysfunction they have been subject to in life). Under all that, though, he's complicated, the situation is complicated, and the real question is if his flaws will break him really and truly and he will not recover ... or if he can have a breakthrough and start to become whole again, atoning for what he has inflicted in his grief and sorrow.
And since this story is one which keeps its secrets and surprises well, I can honestly say I can't guess where this is going by relying on tropes or constrained, easy conventions that normally telegraph the advancement of the plot. We can only guess what's truly the deal with Tony. Or where it will go. Or if he will atone and heal, or even survive.
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Post by tc on Sept 30, 2017 18:47:40 GMT
It's like with Snape: you can't lionize him, you can't demonize him, you have to understand him in relation to whatever has broken him and which he incompletely manages. Spot on. I've belatedly noticed a few similarities between those characters and the way they work as well - though in some ways they are worlds apart. Where I suspect you're really on to something is in the sense that a large chunk of their motivations are being deliberately withheld from the reader to highlight that ambiguity at this stage of the stories. The way I see it, this is one of those "worlds apart" aspects. Snape's central tragedy was that the woman he loved did not return that love in the same way, and ultimately his bitterness over that (and towards the person she did fall in love with) steered him towards a dark path. In that aspect, Snape's arc (in the beginning at least) is actually closer to Sir Jimmy's than that of Tony. Where Snape and Tony align is in a shared sense of self-loathing at what they see as their responsibility for the death of the one they loved. Ultimately, Snape's redemption comes from his using all of his skills and talent to become the central actor in the Big Bad's defeat (I'd long wondered what the point of the unsuccessful Occlumency lessons was - the reveal was subtle brilliance on JKR's part). But sadly he is never able to see past the fact that the child he's working to save is James's son - until the very end. Tony, on the other hand, *did* spend several happy years with the love of his life - and he still has a chance to help their daughter avoid the same fate. Tony knows that Surma's soul ... did not die but is passed on to its new body. Tony knows when he looks at Antimony that he is seeing something that his wife transformed into. Something that he used to love as his wife, but is now not an adult he's married to ... it's now a precocious young child, your daughter. This is ... emotionally ... complicated to handle. Your theory is really cool (and that kintsukoroi analogy - beautiful - and I'm totally nicking it!), however I'm not convinced that Tony does understand the spiritual implications of the elemental "puzzle", at least not to that depth. It seems most of his efforts with Surma were based in the techniques of modern medical science, possibly in the hopes of performing an "end run" around their etheric origins - after all, even in our universe most medical advances have tended to dispel a lot of the more esoteric theories that were accepted for many years prior. I'm also going to respectfully disagree on the "transformation" point. I like that you mention the "Dax" analogy, however if I remember rightly when the Dax symbiont merged with a new host, the new host gained all the memories that Dax had experienced, and the host would "remember" being that person even if their own personality and desires were different. The "fire elemental" part of Surma and Annie seems to be a much more primal thing (as the name implies) - akin to a raw "life force". Not only do we know that Annie does not share the memories of those who came before her, including Surma (after all, the story as it stands wouldn't work if she did), but we can also see over the course of the story that Annie and Surma are very different people, even if they do share some traits (and powers). My thoughts keep coming back to Annie's incipient "Heroic BSOD" after Red chastised Annie and asked her to stay out of their lives. It took a pretty forceful verbal intervention (and logical "debrief") from Kat to prevent Annie from spiralling into despondency after that. Tony doesn't have anyone at this juncture who can do the same for him. |
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clover
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Post by clover on Sept 30, 2017 19:37:22 GMT
To be sure, I am not convinced of anything either. It's all hypothesis! Tony's emotional issues and inability to relate to his daughter could be about many other things as well, including not being able to let go of the idea or feeling that Antimony is responsible for Surma's death, even if on an intellectual level he does not believe that. Or it could be an extension of the part we already know from his drunken confessions that it nearly shatters his mind even to look at Antimony and see how similar she looks to Surma. The only part that's evident is that the dude has issues!
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Post by tc on Sept 30, 2017 21:29:53 GMT
...including not being able to let go of the idea or feeling that Antimony is responsible for Surma's death, even if on an intellectual level he does not believe that. Respectfully, I don't think it makes any sense that he might think that on any level. It's pretty much a matter of canon based on the conversation with Donny in "Annie And The Fire" that Tony considers himself personally responsible for Surma's death in as much as he considers any person responsible. As far as Annie's similarity in appearance to Surma goes, I suspect that was part of the reason he freaked out over her wearing make-up. Because he feels unworthy of Annie's love, he was prepared to be the bad guy to her on the Court's behalf with regard to exposing her copying Kat's work and making her repeat a year - but lashing out over the make-up wasn't part of that, and now we know a little more about things it's possible to see that it came from deep within Tony's own psyche and sense of fear. Undoubtedly Annie's similarity to Surma was part of it, but also at the same time this was the first time Tony was confronted with the reality that their daughter was growing up, and as such he was running out of time to save her. |
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Post by warrl on Sept 30, 2017 21:56:27 GMT
...including not being able to let go of the idea or feeling that Antimony is responsible for Surma's death, even if on an intellectual level he does not believe that. Respectfully, I don't think it makes any sense that he might think that on any level. Think, no. When he's thinking, he knows the notion is complete nonsense. Feel, yes. It is literally true (as far as we know) that if it were not for Antimony, Surma would still be alive. Antimony had no choice or agency in the matter, but to feelings that often doesn't matter. Continuing it further, the odds are that Surma talked Tony into having a child, meaning she bears primary responsibility for her own death - and in his feelings, recognizing that fact might be even less acceptable than what he's doing to their daughter. It fits with the above that, as far as I can recall, he blames himself for failing to save Surma - but not for fathering the child who eventually caused her death by simply existing. But in discussing why he's responsible, he mentioned only his failure to find a cure. |
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Post by tc on Sept 30, 2017 22:08:09 GMT
...recognizing that fact might be even less acceptable than what he's doing to their daughter. What, in your view, is he currently "doing" to their daughter? Not exactly, he said that he *promised* he'd be able to, and his failure (as he sees it) to live up to that promise is why he assumes that Annie would want no part of him. To turn it around a little, on what basis do you get the idea that Tony might subconsciously "feel" antipathy towards Annie? |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 1, 2017 13:14:05 GMT
But in discussing why he's responsible, he mentioned only his failure to find a cure. He calls himself "the man who killed [Annie's] mother". |
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Post by warrl on Oct 1, 2017 15:08:28 GMT
But in discussing why he's responsible, he mentioned only his failure to find a cure. He calls himself "the man who killed [Annie's] mother". But he never says he killed her by agreeing to father a child. He only says he killed her by failing to find a cure. |
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2017 15:24:57 GMT
Very well, but let me know if someone else has already effectively hit on this theory: Tony knows that Surma's soul (or an inescapable element conjoined with what becomes the soul of a fire elemental hybrid, like Jadzia merged with Dax, lets say) did not die but is passed on to its new body. Tony knows when he looks at Antimony that he is seeing something that his wife transformed into. Something that he used to love as his wife, but is now not an adult he's married to ... it's now a precocious young child, your daughter. This is ... emotionally ... complicated to handle. It is also tremendously awkward. This is not something a human with regular emotional range could handle well. It is certainly not something that a person like Tony, who appears often constrained by a strangely stunted emotional range, could handle well. It is super especially not something we could expect Tony to handle, considering that he is tormented with grief and loss over the death of Surma, and holds himself in some way accountable for not being able to save her. Now, put yourself in Tony's shoes. You're so bad at this emotional range and reciprocity thing on a good day. But it's really not a good day. It's a day where you're looking at your daughter, which is also in some way your wife, the person that you married and procreated with. You miss your wife dearly but in a way which is hella super not appropriate in context of this being your daughter now. It messes with you. It really super does. You wouldn't do well with this even if you weren't Tony, dealing with Tony's various griefs that have broken him emotionally and torment him mentally to this day. His inability to process any of this and really express any love to his daughter is the product of that. This all makes him a brilliantly flawed character. Like with Brinnie, he shuts down in some way and can't handle it, and his protective response against anything inappropriate is to lock himself off completely from Antimony and intentionally and totally suppress any emotional connective relationship with the daughter-who-he-thinks-is-also-wife. Like with other characters who are defined principally by how some element of life has broken them and left them a tremendously flawed character (see again, Snape) he becomes polarizing and perplexing. Some people will always defend what he does, some people will utterly loathe him and see him as a total villain (especially if the way in which he is broken mirrors a dysfunction they have been subject to in life). Under all that, though, he's complicated, the situation is complicated, and the real question is if his flaws will break him really and truly and he will not recover ... or if he can have a breakthrough and start to become whole again, atoning for what he has inflicted in his grief and sorrow. And since this story is one which keeps its secrets and surprises well, I can honestly say I can't guess where this is going by relying on tropes or constrained, easy conventions that normally telegraph the advancement of the plot. We can only guess what's truly the deal with Tony. Or where it will go. Or if he will atone and heal, or even survive. Hoh! Your theory gains another point today. |
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clover
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Post by clover on Oct 10, 2017 17:15:58 GMT
 I also incidentally came across something that bolstered and reinforced my ideas about the nature of whatever passes from generation to generation in the fire elemental matrilineal line. POINT THE FIRST: When Coyote is confronting the court about the disappearance of Antimony, his immediate assessment is that it's not 'fire head girl!' — she 'looks the same and smells the same' but it's not her! Coyote's confusion turns out to be because Antimony has locked away the fire spirit, which leaves him unable to assess the hollow Antimony as the same individual he knew before. Similarly, Bunny Boy doesn't recognize Antimony at all until the moment her blinker stone is crushed and the fire spirit reintegrates into her. Like Coyote, a creature like him will not understand or recognize her based on physical appearance but rather their spiritual imprint or signature. Antimony looked physically identical to how they had seen her before, but while separated from her spirit, they did not recognize Antimony as the same person they had met before. POINT THE SECOND: When Coyote is first in the court, meeting Antimony for the first time, he thinks Antimony is Surma! Antimony has to get very close to Coyote, who looks carefully at her and remarks that she looks younger than before — but still thinks that he is in the presence of Surma! I think this is a practical guarantee of how this all works. |
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Post by tc on Oct 12, 2017 22:09:30 GMT
POINT THE FIRST: When Coyote is confronting the court about the disappearance of Antimony, his immediate assessment is that it's not 'fire head girl!' — she 'looks the same and smells the same' but it's not her! POINT THE SECOND: When Coyote is first in the court, meeting Antimony for the first time, he thinks Antimony is Surma! Antimony has to get very close to Coyote, who looks carefully at her and remarks that she looks younger than before — but still thinks that he is in the presence of Surma! It definitely makes sense that Coyote perceives things on the etheric plane first and foremost. I don't think it was until "A Big Day" that we were shown clearly just how different <snuffle>* appears (and by implication all etheric beings appear) in the physical plane ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1667 ) versus the etheric ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1669 ). Given that the fire elemental that is part of Annie's life force (and was part of Surma's, and so on...) is implied to be the same entity passed down the generations, it makes total sense that Coyote would mistake Annie for Surma at first glance if his perception is primarily etheric - likewise his failing to recognise Annie when she temporarily "banished" the elemental by cutting her hair. I do get the impression that while the fire elemental is an inseparable (thus far) part of their life force, in terms of human perception - i.e. in the physical plane - the elemental's influence is very much filtered through the personality and nature of its current host. Something that is becoming increasingly clear is that while the elemental has exerted a degree of influence over both Annie and Surma (particularly when angered or under emotional stress), in spite of that Annie and Surma are very different people and very much individuals in their own right. |
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clover
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Post by clover on Oct 17, 2017 19:11:37 GMT
I think I should pop back in to this to quickly note that there is some potentially huge significance to discovering and understanding how a creature like Coyote recognizes/'sees' individuals: we have, here, caught a fleeting glimpse of one of the limitations or ways to actually confuse Coyote, a mythical creature of utterly extraordinary power. In the case of Coyote, it's not even that much of a limitation, as he has learned to recognize people based on sight and sound as well.
It may also be a hard and fast rule that coyote can not lie. Jones' understanding of it is that Coyote simply does not, at minimum. But one can only guess as to the consistency of this rule.
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Post by todd on Oct 17, 2017 23:38:37 GMT
It may also be a hard and fast rule that coyote can not lie. Jones' understanding of it is that Coyote simply does not, at minimum. But one can only guess as to the consistency of this rule. I think that Coyote does tell the truth - but tells it in a way that he can twist to his own ends. Kind of like the Witches in "Macbeth" - they tell the truth, but in ways that lead Macbeth astray. Coyote's clever enough to recognize that a carefully phrased truth can be a greater weapon than a lie. |
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clover
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Post by clover on Oct 18, 2017 21:05:29 GMT
Coyote will not tell the truth through omission. Coyote will also always manage conversations and expectations so well that he is able to deceive without ever having to lie.
I would like to imagine he is immensely pleased with himself, or otherwise takes it as a challenge. Only he, trickster god, could pull this off without ever technically uttering a lie.
Whatever it is, that is.
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Post by warrl on Oct 19, 2017 5:26:15 GMT
inside the story you have Donny and Anja on one side with Reynard and James on the other, each offering opinions and information about Tony. I'd argue it's actually more complicated than that. Donny was and is Tony's oldest and closest friend and yet even he was somewhat blindsided when all contact stopped. And I'd add that when Donny took Annie's blinker stone along on a visit to Tony, that was kind of the opposite of covering for him. (I also suspect that the only reason it was really necessary was so that Annie would know when to look in on her father and where he would be - that she was perfectly capable of etherically going there on her own, any time, without the blinker having to be there, but didn't know where "there" was or when it would be worthwhile.) |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 19, 2017 12:09:58 GMT
Taking that tangentially... meant to ask where your avatar comes from... what/who is it? Cool drawing... some sort of silver-haired magical type. |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 19, 2017 14:51:26 GMT
I would like to imagine [Coyote] is immensely pleased with himself I am a 100% sure he is.  |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 22, 2017 22:34:22 GMT
Copied from a page discussion: It seems to me that at the time of these events, Renard already believes Surma is in love with him, but hasn't taken Daniel's body yet. This is from the fact that Renard believes at some point, and tells Annie, that Tony has lured Surma away from him. If I'm right, it's almost certain that the Renard incident hastened Surma's decision to leave the court and sever all ties. When Renard steals Daniel's body, we see Eglamore, Donny and Anja rush to her aid, but not Tony. This is probably insignificant (Tony isn't qualified to deal with the problem while the other three are), but I thought I would mention it anyway. You know, I've always wondered whether those three were actively involved in the plan of trapping Renard. On the page you linked we see Anja is already using her magitek spell which is used to bind Renard. I don't suppose she programmed that in the short time between Surma telling the Court Renard had gained the ability to take bodies and the four of them (don't forget Sivo) actively engaging him. So...what made that Surma think of her friends? Even if it was a coincidence (they were in fact not involved in the plan and Anja did not have the program specifically designed to bind Renard), it may have influenced Surma's decision to cut off contact with those three. |
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Post by jda on Oct 23, 2017 16:10:37 GMT
Copied from a page discussion: When Renard steals Daniel's body, we see Eglamore, Donny and Anja rush to her aid, but not Tony. This is probably insignificant (Tony isn't qualified to deal with the problem while the other three are), but I thought I would mention it anyway. You know, I've always wondered whether those three were actively involved in the plan of trapping Renard. On the page you linked we see Anja is already using her magitek spell which is used to bind Renard. I don't suppose she programmed that in the short time between Surma telling the Court Renard had gained the ability to take bodies and the four of them (don't forget Sivo) actively engaging him. So...what made that Surma think of her friends? Even if it was a coincidence (they were in fact not involved in the plan and Anja did not have the program specifically designed to bind Renard), it may have influenced Surma's decision to cut off contact with those three. Interesting. What would be the timeline sequence of events? 1.- Even Coyote knows Surma&Eggers ar an item (him mostly absent); she works with Renard 2.- Surma flirts with Renard on Court orders; 3 .- chapter 64; meanwhile, Coyote gives Renard the body-snatching power 4.- They return to the Court; Eggers returns, S&E break up: "no motive" 5.- Renard steals Daniel's body; rejected, rampages for a time, snatches Sivo's body; he is bound 6.- Surma & Tony flee the Court (pregnancy?) Just 5 minute idea. |
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Post by fia on Oct 24, 2017 18:24:16 GMT
Just a new wildspec: Coyote once said the Court was man's endeavor "to become God". Now, we might ask, particularly since this is a world chock full of gods or deities or at least etheric creatures, which or what sort of God?Tacitly I think we have all assumed that by 'God' it is meant 'the one supreme being'. I was thinking that, in traditional monotheistic metaphysics, the supreme being is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. I am unclear about whether the Court can be called benevolent, particularly given what was done to Jeanne (then again, the Catholic god sacrifices Jesus in a terrible fashion for the good of mankind...). However, it does seem like the court is approaching omniscience, because this page indicates to me, if they in fact predicted the event that did in fact occur, that the Court is able to predict fine-grained events that depend on a tremendous number of variables well into the future. It begs the question: does GC exist in a deterministic, and perhaps fatalistic, universe? Or perhaps their probability calculus is just really, really good? And: does this mean they have knowledge of the finite state of the Earth at occasional points in time??? Creeeepy. One might suppose that the Court must be working on the "omnipotent" part of the equation, perhaps because they fear the power of deities like Coyote, or perhaps just because they're ambitious, which may well be what the Omega Device is about. |
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Post by todd on Oct 25, 2017 0:16:47 GMT
Again, remember that this statement is from Coyote - who has his own agenda and perspective. It may not be the way the Court perceives itself.
We know that the Court's experiments are affecting the ether - Jones even warned Annie that they could lead to all manner of nightmares from humanity's legends materializing - which could make it becoming God if it achieved that sort of power over it. But to the Court, those experiments might seem like just more attempts to collect data and gain information. It's entirely possible that the Court doesn't realize what the consequences of its ether manipulation might be, though Coyote certainly does.
But let's not be too quick to interpret Coyote's words about the Court as gospel truth. Yes, he doesn't lie - but his truth can come out slanted. (As I mentioned in another post, consider the case of the Three Witches in "Macbeth". They spoke the truth, also - but in a way that led Macbeth astray, to his eventual ruin.)
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