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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 8, 2017 6:04:18 GMT
I guess you meant to write "the red buttons were not added by Diego himself"? The S1 model does not have one.It has a CPU slot, though, which is pretty peculiar when you think that this type of integrated circuit was designed in the 20th century.  ... OR WAS IT??? New headcanon: Diego was way ahead of his time, inventing electronics while the outside world was still figuring out steam power. His genius died with him--until the 1940s, when the Court stumbled on a room full of old diagrams. They couldn't understand a lot of it, but they started piecing together as much as they could. And they shared their newly rediscovered computing machine technology with the team at Bletchley Park, thus assisting with the war effort. It was formsprung that the robots largely reuse CPUs in new bodies and they began building new bodies after Diego died, figuring things out for themselves. At least one of the robots in "Jeanne's Tomb" has the CPU slot. [edit]Also the robots likely wrote their own code.[/edit] The robots that existed to serve Diego had to have constructed the next generation before going to sleep so it is possible that the bodies they were using at the time they deactivated themselves were not the same bodies that they had at the time of Diego's death. I think it probable that the robots developed the plug-n-play CPU as a logical innovation as they simplified themselves but sure, Diego was a magic-using genius artificer. He might have made CPUs interchangeable (at least within one series) to increase efficiency but he had the robots for labor so that would save him time but not effort. He might also have prophetic abilities or information from the future I suppose, and imitated what would appear (perhaps paradoxically influencing computer design elsewhere) even though he didn't really see an advantage to it. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 13, 2017 2:41:07 GMT
If the Court was grown from the Seed Bismuth (which we can assume, despite Beesmuth being a liar, works through both technological and etheric means), then shouldnt etheric users be able to see more "colors" instead of the grayscale background that appears whenever they project themselves, like in the forest? On one hand, theres the whole 'willing it to grow too fast' part, which may have made technology a more prominent part of the architecture over the natural landscape (all the huldings vs young park, for example). On the other, theres the whole separation from the Forest, cutting down trees and adding even more buildings. But the originals should remain, and so whatever etheric component that was part of them. We dont know the original point from where the seed grew, but some of the oldest parts should still be at the edge of the river, and yet when Annie projects there, the background is still grayscale. My theory, after this long introduction, is that the Court's experiments with the ether began way in the past. Not just with the creation of the Power Station in Chapters 19/27/28 (which seem to need some modern-ish technology at least not available during the foundatiom of the Court) but rather through some means that extracted the etheric components of the buildings / Bismuth offspring. And to the first question I made, when Annie projects into the Ether after returning from the Forest, she does say that the Court isnt 'as empty as (she) though', which Im going to assume is whatever Bismuth-Ether that may cling to the buildings, since she and Kat were pretty much alone in that rooftop the whole time. Not the full palette from the forest, but perhaps not as grey as when she first used her blinker stone with Anja. I'm amazed that I never thought of this question before, and now propose that we extend it even further, to, question why the FOREST has so many "colors" in it in the first place. As you point out, the Seed Bismuth actually provides a very good reason why the Court should be full of magic, yet there is no such explanation provided in the comic (as far as I know) for why the Forest is practically overflowing with magical creatures and energies. Therefore, I propose that the Seed Bismuth was actually modified (using the humans' alchemy and technology) from a "Seed Gillitie", a much more organic Seed which was used by some sort of British god in order to grow a sanctuary for magical creatures in these modern times. This also helps to explain the Tic-tocs: originally magical bird servants of whatever god created Gillitie, made to protect the Seed, the technological transformation of the Seed also transformed them into more suitable, robotic forms. FURTHERMORE, I propose another theory for Gunnerscrag's original question: Soon after he came, Coyote actually stole the Seed Bismuth from the Court side of the river without anyone realizing it, and that's why the Court today is so grey and barren of magic. The Tic-tocs are still around, though, constantly watching and waiting for someone to help them retrieve their charge. Damn! When I started with this post, I had no idea how big this speculation as about to get. No regrets, though. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Aug 13, 2017 6:56:11 GMT
If the Court was grown from the Seed Bismuth (which we can assume, despite Beesmuth being a liar, works through both technological and etheric means), then shouldnt etheric users be able to see more "colors" instead of the grayscale background that appears whenever they project themselves, like in the forest? On one hand, theres the whole 'willing it to grow too fast' part, which may have made technology a more prominent part of the architecture over the natural landscape (all the huldings vs young park, for example). On the other, theres the whole separation from the Forest, cutting down trees and adding even more buildings. But the originals should remain, and so whatever etheric component that was part of them. We dont know the original point from where the seed grew, but some of the oldest parts should still be at the edge of the river, and yet when Annie projects there, the background is still grayscale. My theory, after this long introduction, is that the Court's experiments with the ether began way in the past. Not just with the creation of the Power Station in Chapters 19/27/28 (which seem to need some modern-ish technology at least not available during the foundatiom of the Court) but rather through some means that extracted the etheric components of the buildings / Bismuth offspring. And to the first question I made, when Annie projects into the Ether after returning from the Forest, she does say that the Court isnt 'as empty as (she) though', which Im going to assume is whatever Bismuth-Ether that may cling to the buildings, since she and Kat were pretty much alone in that rooftop the whole time. Not the full palette from the forest, but perhaps not as grey as when she first used her blinker stone with Anja. I'm amazed that I never thought of this question before, and now propose that we extend it even further, to, question why the FOREST has so many "colors" in it in the first place. As you point out, the Seed Bismuth actually provides a very good reason why the Court should be full of magic, yet there is no such explanation provided in the comic (as far as I know) for why the Forest is practically overflowing with magical creatures and energies. Therefore, I propose that the Seed Bismuth was actually modified (using the humans' alchemy and technology) from a "Seed Gillitie", a much more organic Seed which was used by some sort of British god in order to grow a sanctuary for magical creatures in these modern times. This also helps to explain the Tic-tocs: originally magical bird servants of whatever god created Gillitie, made to protect the Seed, the technological transformation of the Seed also transformed them into more suitable, robotic forms. FURTHERMORE, I propose another theory for Gunnerscrag's original question: Soon after he came, Coyote actually stole the Seed Bismuth from the Court side of the river without anyone realizing it, and that's why the Court today is so grey and barren of magic. The Tic-tocs are still around, though, constantly watching and waiting for someone to help them retrieve their charge. Damn! When I started with this post, I had no idea how big this speculation as about to get. No regrets, though. We heard from Beesmuth that the Seed Bismuth was created using the magic of the forest and the technology of the Founders. The Forest was already there along with the Creatures thereof, and this was well before strictly modern times. Etheric stuff seems to be a natural part of the Gunnerverse, so there's no particular reason that there would need to be a Seed Gillitie. The Forest is said by Jones to be very hard to find, a place that the Founders went to possibly in order to be away from the rest of Humanity. Sounds like a natural place for Etheric Creatures in modern and pre-modern times to converge in and take root. As to why the Court is mostly barren of Etheric things: I think that falls to the philosophy of the Court that developed which eschews the Etheric in favor of the Physic. The Ether also tends to be associated with the natural world, and the Court is very much an artificial construct in nearly all its aspects, from the buildings to the park. This is 100% pure speculation, but I imagine that the introduction of more nature and free creatures into the Court would bring some etheric color to the place. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 13, 2017 23:25:40 GMT
I'm amazed that I never thought of this question before, and now propose that we extend it even further, to, question why the FOREST has so many "colors" in it in the first place. As you point out, the Seed Bismuth actually provides a very good reason why the Court should be full of magic, yet there is no such explanation provided in the comic (as far as I know) for why the Forest is practically overflowing with magical creatures and energies. Therefore, I propose that the Seed Bismuth was actually modified (using the humans' alchemy and technology) from a "Seed Gillitie", a much more organic Seed which was used by some sort of British god in order to grow a sanctuary for magical creatures in these modern times. This also helps to explain the Tic-tocs: originally magical bird servants of whatever god created Gillitie, made to protect the Seed, the technological transformation of the Seed also transformed them into more suitable, robotic forms. FURTHERMORE, I propose another theory for Gunnerscrag's original question: Soon after he came, Coyote actually stole the Seed Bismuth from the Court side of the river without anyone realizing it, and that's why the Court today is so grey and barren of magic. The Tic-tocs are still around, though, constantly watching and waiting for someone to help them retrieve their charge. Damn! When I started with this post, I had no idea how big this speculation as about to get. No regrets, though. We heard from Beesmuth that the Seed Bismuth was created using the magic of the forest and the technology of the Founders. The Forest was already there along with the Creatures thereof, and this was well before strictly modern times. Etheric stuff seems to be a natural part of the Gunnerverse, so there's no particular reason that there would need to be a Seed Gillitie. The Forest is said by Jones to be very hard to find, a place that the Founders went to possibly in order to be away from the rest of Humanity. Sounds like a natural place for Etheric Creatures in modern and pre-modern times to converge in and take root. As to why the Court is mostly barren of Etheric things: I think that falls to the philosophy of the Court that developed which eschews the Etheric in favor of the Physic. The Ether also tends to be associated with the natural world, and the Court is very much an artificial construct in nearly all its aspects, from the buildings to the park. This is 100% pure speculation, but I imagine that the introduction of more nature and free creatures into the Court would bring some etheric color to the place. ...Okay, a) You must be the life of the party, kid. I mean, sheesh. Way to spread the fun around. b) I'd like to emphasize that nothing you say actually rules out my wildspec! and c) I will still gladly leap to its defense, because your whole spiel kinds of annoys me! For instance, I thought that the Seed Beesmuth page actually SUPPORTED my wildspec, since the full quote is, "the magic of the forest animals, the technology of the humans, and the nature of the forest itself". Also, I understand that Ether is fairly natural, but I was under the impression that it is at least somewhat unusual for a forest to not only be full of magical creatures, but to also have etheric colors in the very grass and trees. Yes, one could go with the boring explanation that magic just "leaks" into the plants from the Forest creatures, but honestly I think my explanation makes just as much sense, and is more exciting. And finally, gunnerscrag's original point was precisely that the Court was NOT just an "artificial construct", but the result of both technological AND etheric means, so it still makes sense for one to expect it to look more colorful in the ether. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Aug 14, 2017 0:42:40 GMT
We heard from Beesmuth that the Seed Bismuth was created using the magic of the forest and the technology of the Founders. The Forest was already there along with the Creatures thereof, and this was well before strictly modern times. Etheric stuff seems to be a natural part of the Gunnerverse, so there's no particular reason that there would need to be a Seed Gillitie. The Forest is said by Jones to be very hard to find, a place that the Founders went to possibly in order to be away from the rest of Humanity. Sounds like a natural place for Etheric Creatures in modern and pre-modern times to converge in and take root. As to why the Court is mostly barren of Etheric things: I think that falls to the philosophy of the Court that developed which eschews the Etheric in favor of the Physic. The Ether also tends to be associated with the natural world, and the Court is very much an artificial construct in nearly all its aspects, from the buildings to the park. This is 100% pure speculation, but I imagine that the introduction of more nature and free creatures into the Court would bring some etheric color to the place. ...Okay, a) You must be the life of the party, kid. I mean, sheesh. Way to spread the fun around. b) I'd like to emphasize that nothing you say actually rules out my wildspec! and c) I will still gladly leap to its defense, because your whole spiel kinds of annoys me! For instance, I thought that the Seed Beesmuth page actually SUPPORTED my wildspec, since the full quote is, "the magic of the forest animals, the technology of the humans, and the nature of the forest itself". Also, I understand that Ether is fairly natural, but I was under the impression that it is at least somewhat unusual for a forest to not only be full of magical creatures, but to also have etheric colors in the very grass and trees. Yes, one could go with the boring explanation that magic just "leaks" into the plants from the Forest creatures, but honestly I think my explanation makes just as much sense, and is more exciting. And finally, gunnerscrag's original point was precisely that the Court was NOT just an "artificial construct", but the result of both technological AND etheric means, so it still makes sense for one to expect it to look more colorful in the ether. I am the Kat of Theories! Less that the Ether just leaks from plants and forest creatures, and more that the Ether is intwined with the natural world. The court drew it out of the water, for example. This goes alongside the idea of the colors indicating things having connection to the Ether (Annie seeing colors in Jack, the colored strings of Smitty), a connection which the Court (like you point out) ought to have in spades from being grown from a material created with the nature of the Forest. If Beesmuth wasn't lying and the size of the Court being from having been willed to grow too fast by the humans, perhaps that brings an element of artificiality to what was first being brought into the world by more natural means, lessening that Etheric connection by the time you reach the size the Court turned out to be. One might modify your speculation such that Coyote may not have stolen the Seed Bismuth, but that by separating the Court from the Forest (abundant in nature and naturalness and thus Etheric connection) he actually took a metaphorical "bite" out of the Ether in the Court, exacerbated by the Court Founders eliminating most nature (Jeanne lamenting the cutting down of trees) and the probable continued growth of the Court, and maintained by the decon teams and rooms that ensure that anything foreign is disconnected from the Forest. |
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Post by tc on Sept 16, 2017 10:13:59 GMT
Bit of a tangent this, but...
What if the plan to have Annie attend the Court school while Tony continued his research was a mutual decision, and possibly Surma's idea initially?
They both attended the school as boarders around the same age as Annie, and both would know it afforded her a certain amount of stability and protection. They'd probably be aware that Anja and Donny had a daughter around the same age and would certainly trust their closest friends to take Annie "under their wings". We know Tony went looking for the 'pomps after Surma's death and we know that once he found them they hoodwinked him into making the "bone antenna". But we don't know what Tony's original intent was in seeking them out, and I'm starting to wonder whether, having failed to find a medical answer to the "Elemental reproduction" problem, he resolved to look further afield, starting with trying to get information from the 'pomps (who pulled a cruel bait-and-switch on him before he got to the real reason he was there). Tony's attempt to "take control" of Rey immediately after his return has never been explained either - is it possible Tony was trying to get some information or clues from him?
Having Tony go all-out to find a cure before Annie's life is endangered in the event of Surma's death would certainly fit what we know of them both...
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 16, 2017 14:30:07 GMT
Bit of a tangent this, but... What if the plan to have Annie attend the Court school while Tony continued his research was a mutual decision, and possibly Surma's idea initially? They both attended the school as boarders around the same age as Annie, and both would know it afforded her a certain amount of stability and protection. They'd probably be aware that Anja and Donny had a daughter around the same age and would certainly trust their closest friends to take Annie "under their wings". We know Tony went looking for the 'pomps after Surma's death and we know that once he found them they hoodwinked him into making the "bone antenna". But we don't know what Tony's original intent was in seeking them out, and I'm starting to wonder whether, having failed to find a medical answer to the "Elemental reproduction" problem, he resolved to look further afield, starting with trying to get information from the 'pomps (who pulled a cruel bait-and-switch on him before he got to the real reason he was there). Tony's attempt to "take control" of Rey immediately after his return has never been explained either - is it possible Tony was trying to get some information or clues from him? Having Tony go all-out to find a cure before Annie's life is endangered in the event of Surma's death would certainly fit what we know of them both... This would make much more sense if Surma had contacted Anja and made Anja part of the plan. But it seems that Anja only found out that Surma was dead when Anja saw Annie's transfer paperwork. For me, Surma's break with Anja reamins one of the biggest background plot questions, right up there with Surma and Tony hooking up. Anja is telling Annie how/why Surma and Tony got together, but I don't know if Anja can explain why Surma broke all contact with her. |
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Post by warrl on Sept 16, 2017 19:45:51 GMT
Was it ever firmly established that the "psychopomps" who messed with Tony's head actually were psychopomps?
I've always suspected they were fakes, although the only reason for thinking so is that in comparison to the 'pomps we've seen with Annie they were rather out-of-character.
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Post by saardvark on Sept 16, 2017 20:47:08 GMT
Was it ever firmly established that the "psychopomps" who messed with Tony's head actually were psychopomps? I've always suspected they were fakes, although the only reason for thinking so is that in comparison to the 'pomps we've seen with Annie they were rather out-of-character. agreed. I don't think its clear that the creatures Tony met on his pomp-quest really were psychopomps. The seemed (to me at least) to be more like some sort of malicious demonic sorts. They don't match any known pomps, and were engaging in rather un-pomp-ish behavior with Tony. Pomps are all about taking souls into the ether (not bringing them back out), "keeping the world turning", and very rule driven. The beings Tony met are more malicious tricksters....chaotic evil vs. lawful neutral (real pomps), maybe. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Sept 16, 2017 21:18:51 GMT
Was it ever firmly established that the "psychopomps" who messed with Tony's head actually were psychopomps? I've always suspected they were fakes, although the only reason for thinking so is that in comparison to the 'pomps we've seen with Annie they were rather out-of-character. Tony says he went looking for the Psychopomps, but when he later says he "found what [he] was looking for," I suspect he's referring to his deeper motivation of his journey: he was looking for a way to see Surma again. What he found was creatures who were willing to tell him how to see Surma again. Given what we know of the Psychopomps, they would most likely know that the actions he took would harm Annie, and since they want Annie to work for them.... I highly doubt Tom ever intended us to think that those were Psychopomps rather than malicious creatures toying with a desperate human. |
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Post by Per on Sept 16, 2017 21:37:38 GMT
The technical term is "etheric jerks".
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Grabix
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Post by Grabix on Sept 16, 2017 22:57:47 GMT
People always talk about psychopomps tricking Tony. That is probably so common, because he interpreted it that way. But I am not so convinced. The "antenna" worked as desired - it brought back Surma's life-energy. And the fact, that Annie is using this energy right now is completely other fact. Had Tony ever told them, that his wife was half-fire-elemental? Because otherwise they could be completely unaware about side effects.
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Post by mturtle7 on Sept 17, 2017 6:05:39 GMT
Was it ever firmly established that the "psychopomps" who messed with Tony's head actually were psychopomps? I've always suspected they were fakes, although the only reason for thinking so is that in comparison to the 'pomps we've seen with Annie they were rather out-of-character. agreed. I don't think its clear that the creatures Tony met on his pomp-quest really were psychopomps. The seemed (to me at least) to be more like some sort of malicious demonic sorts. They don't match any known pomps, and were engaging in rather un-pomp-ish behavior with Tony. Pomps are all about taking souls into the ether (not bringing them back out), "keeping the world turning", and very rule driven. The beings Tony met are more malicious tricksters....chaotic evil vs. lawful neutral (real pomps), maybe. Ooh, that's an interesting idea! Come to think of it, he wasn't exactly in the sanest state of mind at the time. He may not have had been able to judge their psychopomp-ness very well. And plus, we've seen pretty clearly that the true psychopomps are trying to specifically groom Antimony for whatever their plans are; why would they want to trick Tony into killing her? Of course, this still somewhat leaves the question of why anyone ELSE would want to trick Tony into killing her (and no, I don't think I'm buying that they just did it because they're jerks). |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Sept 17, 2017 6:44:34 GMT
agreed. I don't think its clear that the creatures Tony met on his pomp-quest really were psychopomps. The seemed (to me at least) to be more like some sort of malicious demonic sorts. They don't match any known pomps, and were engaging in rather un-pomp-ish behavior with Tony. Pomps are all about taking souls into the ether (not bringing them back out), "keeping the world turning", and very rule driven. The beings Tony met are more malicious tricksters....chaotic evil vs. lawful neutral (real pomps), maybe. Ooh, that's an interesting idea! Come to think of it, he wasn't exactly in the sanest state of mind at the time. He may not have had been able to judge their psychopomp-ness very well. And plus, we've seen pretty clearly that the true psychopomps are trying to specifically groom Antimony for whatever their plans are; why would they want to trick Tony into killing her? Of course, this still somewhat leaves the question of why anyone ELSE would want to trick Tony into killing her (and no, I don't think I'm buying that they just did it because they're jerks). Hard to assign them a motivation, really. Guy comes tumbling into their separate space that is really hard to find, desperate to see his dead wife... There's nothing he can give them, most likely. They tell him what to do, and he does it, and when it all comes tumbling down they leave him to die. It doesn't seem like they were terribly kind beings, and we see no indication of them interfering during the summoning... The beginning and end of our knowledge of them is that they are creatures which live in a strange pocket dimension and that they know how to build an antenna which can summon beings from the Ether (as pointed out, a very un-Pomp-like thing to do), and that they eventually leave Tony to rot. Not every character presented in a story has to have an angle which involves the main plot. Sometimes jerks are just jerks, and want to take advantage of a desperate person for the hilarity of watching them struggle. Sometimes a writer brings in a character purely to make a plot-point happen. These characters were necessary for Tony's character arc, but given that they are most likely only to touch upon Annie's arc in that one instance, I see no reason to assign them any motivation besides enjoying the torment of Tony's desperation. Perhaps they could have fed off Surma's summoned etheric spirit, but Zimmy's interference stopped everything before it could reach that point, but I doubt we will ever know unless Tom really wants us to know. Maybe next time he's giving a talk and takes questions someone can ask? |
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Post by fish on Sept 17, 2017 10:52:00 GMT
These characters were necessary for Tony's character arc, but given that they are most likely only to touch upon Annie's arc in that one instance, I see no reason to assign them any motivation besides enjoying the torment of Tony's desperation. Though it would be neat to see Annie track them down and falcon punch them. One can dream. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 17, 2017 13:52:43 GMT
These characters were necessary for Tony's character arc, but given that they are most likely only to touch upon Annie's arc in that one instance, I see no reason to assign them any motivation besides enjoying the torment of Tony's desperation. Though it would be neat to see Annie track them down and falcon punch them. One can dream. Whatever they are, they may have a long standing grudge against fire elementals, their human hybrids, and/or any other beings that aren't stuck in that cave. One of Annie's duties may be to help them remember why they are in that cave. |
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Post by fia on Sept 17, 2017 16:57:18 GMT
I actually believe those specters Tony saw might well be psychopomps. We still don't know why they want Annie; she clearly has some power they want. And she did ominously say they wanted her to work for them, presumably "before she dies", but we're not sure they want her alive, do we? Even she is not sure.
Also, recall possessed Robot tried to push Annie off the bridge. It might well be the case the etheric forest-y creatures used to want her dead, too. Or maybe they wanted Surma dead for having stolen Reynardine? Coyote said he didn't realize Surma was dead until he saw Annie himself.
My point is – it's clear there's some hatred lurking in plain sight, and Annie's been lucky not to be killed yet. Probably her constantly being protected by Kat, and possibly future Mecha-Angel-Goddess Kat, has helped.
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Post by todd on Sept 18, 2017 0:15:46 GMT
Many trouble-making beings in myth and legend *do* seem to do it just for their own entertainment, without any deeper agenda. So it's possible that whoever the beings were whom Anthony met, their only motive was to amuse themselves by playing games with a broken man.
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Post by Druplesnubb on Sept 18, 2017 11:34:53 GMT
The big problem with Tony having planned things out with Surma beforehand is that then he would've known that Annie can commune with the psychopomps, and that going on a massive road trip to find them is just a waste of time.
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Post by gunnerscrag on Sept 18, 2017 14:44:40 GMT
Bit of a tangent this, but... What if the plan to have Annie attend the Court school while Tony continued his research was a mutual decision, and possibly Surma's idea initially? They both attended the school as boarders around the same age as Annie, and both would know it afforded her a certain amount of stability and protection. They'd probably be aware that Anja and Donny had a daughter around the same age and would certainly trust their closest friends to take Annie "under their wings". We know Tony went looking for the 'pomps after Surma's death and we know that once he found them they hoodwinked him into making the "bone antenna". But we don't know what Tony's original intent was in seeking them out, and I'm starting to wonder whether, having failed to find a medical answer to the "Elemental reproduction" problem, he resolved to look further afield, starting with trying to get information from the 'pomps (who pulled a cruel bait-and-switch on him before he got to the real reason he was there). Tony's attempt to "take control" of Rey immediately after his return has never been explained either - is it possible Tony was trying to get some information or clues from him? Having Tony go all-out to find a cure before Annie's life is endangered in the event of Surma's death would certainly fit what we know of them both... Consider the following Getting Rey to find a way how his powers work, copy and stabilize them for another creature to use, Annie just changes bodies without having to die from giving birth |
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Post by tc on Sept 18, 2017 21:05:19 GMT
This is a completely valid point given the gaps in what we've been shown so far. I can think of at least couple of possible explanatory factors within that gap though. The first possibility being that Surma's final decline was far more rapid than either Surma or Tony were prepared for, and there simply wasn't time to find a safe method of contacting Anja and Donny. A second possibility (not mutually-exclusive to the first) could be that Surma discussed this potential (worst-case) outcome with Anja before they left for Good Hope, which might explain how Anja was so certain that seeing Annie's enrolment form meant that her friend had died. Agreed, but the most rapidly-growing "elephant in the room" during the last ten chapters or so has arguably been the matter of Court's surveillance capabilities, particularly regarding their apparent paranoia over Tony's Omega Project research. We've seen Tony telling Donny that Surma broke contact because she didn't want to put Anja through the trauma of watching her decline, which is plausible - if arguably somewhat presumptuous on Surma's part. However, another unspoken rationale which has recently begun to raise his head is that Surma and Tony could have been worried about the potential consequences of the Court intercepting their communications, particularly given that Tony's search for a "cure" was both unauthorised and almost certainly diverting the majority of Tony's focus from what he was supposed to be working on. It would make sense if Surma and Tony were concerned that involving the Donlans might have risked their facing harm of some kind. Was it ever firmly established that the "psychopomps" who messed with Tony's head actually were psychopomps? Given how complex the overall story already is, I'd be surprised if another entirely separate "faction" of that kind of significance was being brought into play. Of course, we know that the 'pomps do have disputes amongst themselves, so it's entirely possible that the entities Tony encountered had a different agenda to Muut et al. ...I suspect he's referring to his deeper motivation of his journey: he was looking for a way to see Surma again... I'd be interested to know why you think that might be the case...  Consider the following Getting Rey to find a way how his powers work, copy and stabilize them for another creature to use, Annie just changes bodies without having to die from giving birth Very interesting, and something I hadn't considered at all. I can't see Tony, Annie or Rey thinking that kind of solution acceptable though. fia - I brought up Robot's return under "bad" Shadowman control and was reminded : Annie was holding Renard, and the shadowman's mission was to retrieve Renard from the court. Annie was just in the way. The big problem with Tony having planned things out with Surma beforehand is that then he would've known that Annie can commune with the psychopomps, and that going on a massive road trip to find them is just a waste of time. Possible, but I'd say it's worth considering that Surma and Tony might have wanted to keep Annie's contact with the 'pomps to a minimum... |
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 18, 2017 22:27:29 GMT
For me, Surma's break with Anja reamins one of the biggest background plot questions... Agreed, but the most rapidly-growing "elephant in the room" during the last ten chapters or so has arguably been the matter of Court's surveillance capabilities, particularly regarding their apparent paranoia over Tony's Omega Project research. We've seen Tony telling Donny that Surma broke contact because she didn't want to put Anja through the trauma of watching her decline, which is plausible - if arguably somewhat presumptuous on Surma's part. However, another unspoken rationale which has recently begun to raise his head is that Surma and Tony could have been worried about the potential consequences of the Court intercepting their communications, particularly given that Tony's search for a "cure" was both unauthorised and almost certainly diverting the majority of Tony's focus from what he was supposed to be working on. It would make sense if Surma and Tony were concerned that involving the Donlans might have risked their facing harm of some kind. Hmm, what made you think Tony's other research was unauthorized. I always understood "They gave me access to all the equipment I needed to research the device and Surma's pregnancy." as the Court's way of payment for Tony's work on the OD was that he was allowed to use their equipment for his personal research as well. |
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Post by tc on Sept 18, 2017 23:20:26 GMT
There's certainly nothing in what we've seen to contradict that interpretation, however at the same time Tony does not state that the Court actually sanctioned his researching Surma's pregnancy - and he's usually noticeably meticulous in his choice of words. If nothing else, I can't help but think that the Court would take a dim view of the Omega Project research becoming of lesser priority than finding a "cure" for Surma and Annie. I'm also going to be a bit cheeky and throw in another tangent which has been bugging me for a while; namely that the current chapter ["Get Lost" for those reading in future ] seems to be increasingly disproving the notion that Tony was "obsessed" with Surma, and/or had been carrying a torch for her in secret for years before they got together. I've been futzing with both the forum search function and Google to see if I could find the original source of that claim, but with no luck. I've known more than a few lovesick young men (and been one myself several times) - and if my experience is any indication, Tony has exhibited none of the telltale signs I'd expect. If anyone can help me find where that claim came from I'd be very grateful... It would be *very* interesting if it started with Eglamore or Rey. [EDIT : Apropos of nothing, I can clearly remember being "dumped" as a teenager on several occasions because I was so preoccupied with trying to live up to a half-arsed notion of chivalry and being "protective" that it made the person I was with feel claustrophobic and "suffocated" emotionally. This was something I didn't really understand until I was quite a bit older (and until I did, I'll admit that I felt very bitter about those experiences). Surma broke up with Jimmy - a literal knight in shining armour - because she fell in love (then later married and had a baby) with Tony, who on a superficial level appeared to be a comparatively scrawny and socially awkward geek... And this is something James has never really made peace with. ] |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Sept 19, 2017 2:16:07 GMT
Was it ever firmly established that the "psychopomps" who messed with Tony's head actually were psychopomps? Given how complex the overall story already is, I'd be surprised if another entirely separate "faction" of that kind of significance was being brought into play. Of course, we know that the 'pomps do have disputes amongst themselves, so it's entirely possible that the entities Tony encountered had a different agenda to Muut et al. ...I suspect he's referring to his deeper motivation of his journey: he was looking for a way to see Surma again... I'd be interested to know why you think that might be the case... For your response to Warrl: I'd repeat my statement that just because a character shows up in a story doesn't make them a faction that plays into the long running arcs of a story. Sometimes they're just a bunch of Boffans who die to get information to the Rebellion, or a guy at the bar making trouble to satiate George Lucas' penchant for slicing off limbs; sometimes they're just a Slytherin bully who exists solely for Hermione to try and steal the hair of, or perhaps they're Tom freaking Bombadil and have absolutely zero impact on the long running story besides getting the characters through a certain part of Middle Earth. The jerks in the cave were most likely there as storytelling tools for Tony's arc. Disputes among Psychopomps seen thus far amount to territorial disputes about who gets to take whom to the Ether. Post-Jeane's Dismissal to the Ether, they show up en masse to the Annan Waters and are represented as speaking collectively, even though Muut is focused on. As to where I would think that is the case: He goes to find the 'Pomps in order to seek answers beyond his experience, and he finds what he was looking for in the form of creatures who tell him he can see Surma again. The basic motivation of his journey is understanding what happened with Surma, but it is my opinion that his deeper motivation is a desire to reconnect with his wife, something it is reasonable to assume (even if incorrectly) that the 'Pomps would be capable of, though my argument would be on the side of them not being in favor of doing so. Why would I argue that last point as being true? Not solely because the 'Pomps in all portrayals thus far seem to be all about taking the dead into the Ether (and so devoted to the task that the RotD claims that they, of course, would not understand the idea of the dead remaining part of our world because they're all about winking people out of existence), but because their latest appearance after the Jeanne fiasco shows them to be meticulously transactional: they do not give favors they are not owed, and do not act without considering their own interests. They would not heal Smitty, despite his helping with Jeanne, unless Annie agreed to work for them; Muut gave Annie the blinker stone because he wanted Annie to develop her power so that she could take care of Jeanne. What does helping Tony see his wife again get them? Nothing. They didn't even want to bother taking what was left of her into the Ether and left it to Annie. I would posit that Surma was of no interest to the 'Pomps except for the ways in which she was able to help them, and now their interest is in Annie. |
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Post by tc on Sept 19, 2017 2:55:08 GMT
...or a guy at the bar making trouble to satiate George Lucas' penchant for slicing off limbs... In that case I'd argue that the seemingly gratuitous maiming served a purpose - namely that the peril in which Luke found himself was not only very much real, but potentially immediate. But why? She can't tell him anything he doesn't already know... Right - a condition which Annie had previously refused. There's something about Annie that makes the 'pomps (and probably not coincidentally the Court) want to keep her under control - on that basis would it be that much of a stretch that some of the 'pomps might not have wanted to just take her out of the equation following her initial refusal? But it doesn't get Tony anything of value either... |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Sept 19, 2017 6:12:00 GMT
...or a guy at the bar making trouble to satiate George Lucas' penchant for slicing off limbs... In that case I'd argue that the seemingly gratuitous maiming served a purpose - namely that the peril in which Luke found himself was not only very much real, but potentially immediate. Err... you are making my exact point? That dude in the bar was a storytelling tool to illustrate the situation, but played no larger role. I was simply making a joke about how many characters in Star Wars lose hands and arms when I made the point. To my mind, it is the same with the jerks in the cave: they were a storytelling tool to have a certain situation play out. There is no reason for them to factor into the larger plot besides explaining what happened to Annie that one time, and reinforcing the chain of existence of the Fire Elemental lineage (here, Surma and Annie's inextricable bond right down to their souls). Right - a condition which Annie had previously refused. There's something about Annie that makes the 'pomps (and probably not coincidentally the Court) want to keep her under control - on that basis would it be that much of a stretch that some of the 'pomps might not have wanted to just take her out of the equation following her initial refusal? Annie had previously refused (and by her conversation when alone with Ankou, the "initial refusal" seems to have happened more than a single iteration ago), and yet the Guides simply persisted. Clearly their calculus told them it was in their best interests to get Annie to work for them rather than remove Annie from the equation altogether. According to Ankou, Annie has a natural inclination to performing the work of the Guides. And when the time came that they could force the issue, they did. If they want the heir of the Fire Elemental lineage to work for them (which you can see them having tried to talk Surma into working for them back at Good Hope), they have all of time to wait and work on heir after heir. It's not like Annie can stop their work, or keep them from pursuing their interests with any descendants she might bring into the world, except by not having children. But why? She can't tell him anything he doesn't already know... But it doesn't get Tony anything of value either... I... wha... why do you need a material, practical reason to want to see the love of your life again? Tony loves Surma. A better question would be "Why would he not want Surma to be in his life again?" How could he not? Your reasoning here makes no sense to me, if you're asking why Tony wouldn't want to see his wife, the love of his life, one more time. Time spent with loved ones is a valuable good unto itself. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Sept 19, 2017 6:23:40 GMT
AVAUNT!!! AVAUNT!! BEGONE, THOU MONSTROUS DEMON OF THE LOWER HELLS OF BOREDOM!! YOUR CRUELLY LOGICAL POINTS OF VIEW HAVE NO PLACE IN THIS THREAD!!! (I'm mostly kidding - you actually have some pretty cool theories - but please, remember this is just Wild Speculation! Boffans may indeed just be Boffans, but that's really not the point of this thread!) |
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Post by Runningflame on Sept 19, 2017 20:06:27 GMT
Many trouble-making beings in myth and legend *do* seem to do it just for their own entertainment, without any deeper agenda. So it's possible that whoever the beings were whom Anthony met, their only motive was to amuse themselves by playing games with a broken man. Coyote laughed at this! |
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 20, 2017 13:52:09 GMT
Also, right now I can think of at least two mythological beings (Chang'e and Baz the minotaur) who appeared in the story without ever pursuing any agenda besides just hustlin' like everyone else. They just did what they do. So maybe the etheric jerks from the cave just did what they do as well. They give you what you want...for a price...and twisting your words to their morbid amusement. I mean, that's a classic theme in stories from all over the world.
That does NOT mean, however, that I do not want to know more about those jerks. Dudes who look like giant insects and dead ungulates interest me somehow...
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Post by tc on Sept 21, 2017 3:33:51 GMT
I... wha... why do you need a material, practical reason to want to see the love of your life again? In and of itself, a lot of people probably wouldn't - but that's not what I was saying. My speculative theory is that even though Tony (uncharacteristically) took the opportunity as soon as it was offered without properly assessing the consequences, that wasn't the original reason he went to look for them. That goes without saying! However the current chapter is increasingly undermining the idea that there was an unhealthy or obsessive aspect to that love**. That wasn't was was on offer. The entities Tony found told him he could see Surma again - nothing more. The implication is that he was already in a physically traumatised (and probably exhausted) state, but setting that aside for now, in that place and at that time he (an eminent surgeon) was willing to sacrifice his own right forearm (and therefore not only his future career but also a big part of who he was) just to see Surma. However it is heavily implied that he wouldn't even have considered it had he known that his actions would put Annie in danger. I don't think it's coincidental that within a few chapters of hearing Tony's story we see Annie willing to surrender herself (also sacrificing some of her future) to the 'pomps to save Smitty's life, spare Parley the trauma of losing her beloved and the whole group from the loss of a close friend. With the caveat that you're on good terms with one another ( ), but that's a fair point. But I'm still willing to bet that trying to keep Annie alive has been Tony's primary goal since Surma passed. [** - I'm starting to wonder whether that notion has grown out of Sir Jimmy's bitterness and Rey's anger at Tony's absence colouring what we've been told in the past ] |
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