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Post by Rasselas on Aug 31, 2015 8:11:36 GMT
I know what I need to do now: make a Team Donny sig-badge.  |
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
Posts: 112
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Post by Anthony on Aug 31, 2015 8:22:30 GMT
Seeing as the idea that Anthony isn't responsible for his behavior is ludacris at worst and misguided at best No one says Anthony isn't responsible for what he did. Instead, this chapter shows that there's nothing inherently wrong (or ill-intentioned) about his actions. They all seem quite logical and prudent. The guy just did his best to save daughter from the Court. |
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Aug 31, 2015 8:34:35 GMT
Seeing as the idea that Anthony isn't responsible for his behavior is ludacris at worst and misguided at best No one says Anthony isn't responsible for what he did. Instead, this chapter shows that there's nothing inherently wrong (or ill-intentioned) about his actions. They all seem quite logical and prudent. The guy just did his best to save daughter from the Court. No. The point of this page is that he has done wrong. "Not ill-intentioned" does not equate to "not wrong". |
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jocobo
Junior Member
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Post by jocobo on Aug 31, 2015 8:42:11 GMT
Seeing as the idea that Anthony isn't responsible for his behavior is ludacris at worst and misguided at best No one says Anthony isn't responsible for what he did. Instead, this chapter shows that there's nothing inherently wrong (or ill-intentioned) about his actions. They all seem quite logical and prudent. The guy just did his best to save daughter from the Court. I respectfully disagree. It is neither logical or prudent to assume medical science can somehow prevent the etheric life cycle of your fire elemental wife. It is the antithesis or logic and prudence to make bargain with etheric beings without fully understanding the nature, cost and collateral damage of said bargain. It is not logical or prudent to lash out at said daughter because viewing her face brought on personal feelings of shame and inadequacy. That's the real point of this chapter. Despite Tony's seemingly perfectly meticulous and logical appearance, he is every bit as emotion driven and irrational as any other human being. Tony is a tragic character. And I mean it in the Greek sense where his character arc seems to be driven by the same fatal flaw again and again. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 31, 2015 8:44:55 GMT
Like Daedalus said, let's move the debate over to Tony's dedicated thread. It exists for a reason, guys
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
Posts: 112
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Post by Anthony on Aug 31, 2015 8:59:28 GMT
No. The point of this page is that he has done wrong. That's just how Annie Donnie and some readers perceive Tony's actions. I understand why the comic characters feel that way. Nevertheless, this point of view is kind of debatable. |
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
Posts: 112
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Post by Anthony on Aug 31, 2015 9:01:21 GMT
I respectfully disagree. It is neither logical or prudent to assume medical science can somehow prevent the etheric life cycle of your fire elemental wife. I was talking only about "The Tree" chapter. Edit: I mean making Annie repeat year 9, etc. |
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Post by Gulby on Aug 31, 2015 10:39:49 GMT
Donny confirmed for best character in Gunnerkrigg Court. Now that the Anthony Carver Emotional Damage Extravaganza has concluded, and Donny has succinctly and gently told Annie that she's still allowed to be angry and hurt about what her father has done, I think this is going to be really helpful for her. Her anger and pain have been validated, but so has her love - and this information about Tony's inner life should make it easier for her to contextualize what he's doing and process it in a healthier and more useful way. Now she knows - she has been told this, but now she knows - that when he seems cold or even cruel, it isn't because he secretly hates her, or blames her, or that she has to earn his love. He is just completely pants at being a father. And now she gets to decide what she's going to do with that, emotionally. Just that. And Don is the best dad ever. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 31, 2015 10:52:24 GMT
Donny is such a nice guy, and this comic is so much about shades of grey, it makes me wonder if his day job involves experimenting on human subjects or something. Donny's day job is teaching at Gunnerkrigg Court. So yes, exactly what you said! |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 31, 2015 10:59:34 GMT
Donald is used to the role of The Only Sane Guy. Or rather "No one wants to show common sense? I guess it's up to me..." guy. Donny is such a nice guy, and this comic is so much about shades of grey, it makes me wonder if his day job involves experimenting on human subjects or something. If Donald has any big fault, it's most likely the desire to not get involved in any mess - "When Good People Do Nothing", etc. Right now he tries to somewhat patch things for Annie, not cross Jonathan. Which is why he won't dig in any deeper. Window of opportunity to ask questions/opine on lifestyle choices missed... though I'd probably have approached the topic from a very oblique angle if at all if I were Donlan... say, from the standpoint of asking Anthony what he was going to do with Antimony in the future. That's where the details on their private shenanigans, omega device and/or mysterious "program" would come in, and/or his estimation of Anthony's immediate death by fire risk sharply increases. |
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Post by speedwell on Aug 31, 2015 11:01:28 GMT
I don't know about you guys, but I actually teared up when I saw that Donny had a key to Tony's house (note that Tom spends an entire two frames showing him locking the door and tucking the key in his pocket). I don't know why that affected me so much, unless it was because clearly Anthony gave him the key at some point in the past, and I can't think of any really happy, cheerful reason why. I can't even rule out that Donny was given (or was sent) the key before Anthony disappeared, though I don't think that is as likely as Anthony giving it to him after he returned.
"Just in case, Donny."
"You're not going to just run off again without telling anyone, Tony?"
"Oh, god, I don't know, Donny, I hope not, but there are things I don't have any control over. Just try to see that S--... that Annie's OK, all right?"
(pushing up nosepiece) "If it makes you feel better, all right, Tony."
Edit: Yeah, it could be read as Donny just pulling the door shut and taking out the blinker stone, but I don't think Donny would leave a house door unlocked with a passed out best friend inside.
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Post by corruptuser on Aug 31, 2015 11:46:37 GMT
I don't know. It excuses the fact that he held her back a year. Everything else though...
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Post by sable0aria on Aug 31, 2015 12:33:29 GMT
On one hand I actually put my arms in the air and shouted "THANK YOU DONNY!" My cats gave me funny looks. On the other hand, Donald has also kinda confirmed that Anthony will most likely not be changing his behavior toward Annie. At least she knows now, and can hopefully use this to heal, move on, and begin planing the court's eventual downfall.
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Post by csj on Aug 31, 2015 12:34:28 GMT
Thanks, auth- ...eeeeeh, I mean Donny.  |
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 31, 2015 13:00:14 GMT
And I guess Donny sums things up. Nothing really excuses Tony's epic of failures on all levels, but we needed to see what's been going on with the guy. Now, it can be hoped, the plot shall begin to reclaim some forward momentum. I almost feel like Donny's words to Annie are a proxy for what Tom is trying to communicate to readers about Tony. "Tony has had a rough time of it, and he believes in (most) of the choices he's making, however, that doesn't excuse the damage he's doing to you as a result. And, it's not fair, but the only way you'll see him with his guard down is when he isn't aware you're listening in." And Donny saying everything we were thinking. And Tom showing why I trust him to make this work. Yeah, Tom is giving Annie and us a chance to see into why Tony is the way he is, and also using Donny as a mouthpiece to let us know that humanizing him and explaining his backstory doesn't let him off the hook for the damage he is inflicting on Annie. In a single panel Donald succinctly condensed the entire message of the chapter in an important and natural way. We've been allowed insight into the life and mind of a troubled man and we've been gently reminded this does not excuse him, and many a story would give us one or neither. Exactly. I firmly believe Donny is giving us Tom's view on the Tony/Annie dynamic in this scene. |
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Post by goldenknots on Aug 31, 2015 14:06:03 GMT
Edit: Yeah, it could be read as Donny just pulling the door shut and taking out the blinker stone, but I don't think Donny would leave a house door unlocked with a passed out best friend inside. Or it could be read as locking the door and then pulling it shut. My doors close just fine with the latch set, you only need a key to set the deadbolt. |
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Post by goldenknots on Aug 31, 2015 14:09:57 GMT
A small quibble over Anthony's position, passed out in that chair. All the people I've ever seen who were drunk and passed out sitting back in a chair had their heads all the way back. Maintaining a head-up position while unconscious is highly unlikely, maybe outright impossible, and the only way his head wouldn't be all the way back would be if he were pitched forward, instead.
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Post by wynne on Aug 31, 2015 14:22:18 GMT
Donald Donlan: All around great guy.
Honestly, I'm really glad that both Anja and Donny exist in this fictional world, and that they so clearly want Annie to be safe and happy. Good/functional parents who don't die or have secret agendas or whatever are sometimes hard to find in fiction, and I'm glad that they're around to look out for her. Kat comes from a good home.
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Post by Trillium on Aug 31, 2015 15:11:22 GMT
A small quibble over Anthony's position, passed out in that chair. All the people I've ever seen who were drunk and passed out sitting back in a chair had their heads all the way back. Maintaining a head-up position while unconscious is highly unlikely, maybe outright impossible, and the only way his head wouldn't be all the way back would be if he were pitched forward, instead. In in this position Tony is less likely to throw up and drown in his own vomit. Wouldn't that be a sad end now that he may be taking the first steps on the path to recovery. Don has put Antimony in a position to see where her dad is coming from but this does not endow her with wisdom on how to proceed. Where would you go for help, being a teen with only a little life experience? |
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anisky
Junior Member
Posts: 72 
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Post by anisky on Aug 31, 2015 15:15:56 GMT
A small quibble over Anthony's position, passed out in that chair. All the people I've ever seen who were drunk and passed out sitting back in a chair had their heads all the way back. Maintaining a head-up position while unconscious is highly unlikely, maybe outright impossible, and the only way his head wouldn't be all the way back would be if he were pitched forward, instead. It looks to me more like his head is to the side, rather than upright, and he's resting his head against his own shoulder. The few times I've been prohibitively sleepy while sitting up, that's the position I usually assume, as well, and I've woken up in that position (with a horrible neck crink), so it is possible. |
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Post by l33tninja on Aug 31, 2015 15:29:21 GMT
...assuming your daughter's stuffed animals aren't contemplating dumping a glass of water on your trousers so that you wake up in a puddle and jump to an understandable but inaccurate conclusion. Aaaaaaaand there's our bonus page for this chapter. We can only hope you are right about that |
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Aug 31, 2015 15:50:29 GMT
I like how Donny just left him passed out in the chair. It highlights how much this whole set-up was to help Annie. For all that Donald gave his old friend a chance to open up without offering judgement or censor, he's not putting himself out for the sake of Anthony's comfort and physical well-being. It could be his own small version of a "screw you, guy" or it could be him recognizing that Annie's emotional state is the priority in this moment and there's no good to be done for Anthony until/unless he asks for it.
I still have my doubts as to the wisdom of this venture (though as a story-telling device, it was tops), but I do appreciate old Donald's motivations.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 31, 2015 16:12:37 GMT
A small quibble over Anthony's position, passed out in that chair. All the people I've ever seen who were drunk and passed out sitting back in a chair had their heads all the way back. Maintaining a head-up position while unconscious is highly unlikely, maybe outright impossible, and the only way his head wouldn't be all the way back would be if he were pitched forward, instead. In in this position Tony is less likely to throw up and drown in his own vomit. Wouldn't that be a sad end now that he may be taking the first steps on the path to recovery. Don has put Antimony in a position to see where her dad is coming from but this does not endow her with wisdom on how to proceed. Where would you go for help, being a teen with only a little life experience? Anthony was found dead the next day having choked on vomit. It wasn't his vomit. |
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Post by mishyana on Aug 31, 2015 16:15:09 GMT
I do think that's the most succinct way to express Tony's qualities. I'd also like to know what people will make of a certain little idea of mine: In a standard story where the villain is more clear, and the general fanbase grows to despise him, the story has to accumulate the evils of the character to justify the hatred. But with Tony, the steady accumulation of negative traits hit a full stop. I posit that the part of the community that continues to try and drag his character through the mud is attempting to use only the negative traits they've seen so far to justify their hatred, and those that think that this is an example of "sloppy writing" by Tom are disappointed they don't have anything else to add to the list. If a writer is able to generate that much disgust with a fictional character, it seems very much more the exact opposite of "sloppy writing". As one of those who has been and to some extent, remains disgusted with his behavior, I'll admit I'm viewing him in a softer light than I was before. I think you are mistaken in associating dislike of Tony with dislike of Tom's writing, however. The two are mutually exclusive. Redemptive qualities of the last few strips aside, I think people are still justified in their dislike of Tony for whatever reasons they may have. Doesn't change that Tom has put together one hell of a story here so far. |
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Post by Draxiss on Aug 31, 2015 16:48:53 GMT
Somehow, Tom, you've managed to make your comments for today's comic MORE vague than if you'd said anything at all. Well done.
I've greatly enjoyed popping my popcorn over the hellfires that have burned through this forum.
To sum it up: Tony is flawed, and Antimony has to deal with his flaws.
The question of whether his actions are excusable is wrong, but it's a handy heuristic and I don't feel like putting in the actual effort to actually something ethics something psychology. Actually.
Hopefully this doesn't mean he dies in the next chapter. Tom is scaring me with all this actual explanation of what's going on.
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Post by Draxiss on Aug 31, 2015 16:51:19 GMT
This DOES explain the lack of therapists, I just realized. The Court doesn't WANT Annie to be in a mentally stable position from which to fight back.
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radia
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by radia on Aug 31, 2015 16:53:30 GMT
A small quibble over Anthony's position, passed out in that chair. All the people I've ever seen who were drunk and passed out sitting back in a chair had their heads all the way back. Maintaining a head-up position while unconscious is highly unlikely, maybe outright impossible, and the only way his head wouldn't be all the way back would be if he were pitched forward, instead. It looks to me more like his head is to the side, rather than upright, and he's resting his head against his own shoulder. The few times I've been prohibitively sleepy while sitting up, that's the position I usually assume, as well, and I've woken up in that position (with a horrible neck crink), so it is possible. That said, his position is pretty precarious. It would be very surprising if he didn't fall out of the chair at some point. Which would probably not break him far out of his stupor, since it looks like he killed most of that bottle by himself. I see him waking up under the desk. I really wish I could see Annie's face in the last panel. Still shell-shocked, or...? |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 31, 2015 16:54:11 GMT
I do think that's the most succinct way to express Tony's qualities. I'd also like to know what people will make of a certain little idea of mine: In a standard story where the villain is more clear, and the general fanbase grows to despise him, the story has to accumulate the evils of the character to justify the hatred. But with Tony, the steady accumulation of negative traits hit a full stop. I posit that the part of the community that continues to try and drag his character through the mud is attempting to use only the negative traits they've seen so far to justify their hatred, and those that think that this is an example of "sloppy writing" by Tom are disappointed they don't have anything else to add to the list. If a writer is able to generate that much disgust with a fictional character, it seems very much more the exact opposite of "sloppy writing". As one of those who has been and to some extent, remains disgusted with his behavior, I'll admit I'm viewing him in a softer light than I was before. I think you are mistaken in associating dislike of Tony with dislike of Tom's writing, however. The two are mutually exclusive. Redemptive qualities of the last few strips aside, I think people are still justified in their dislike of Tony for whatever reasons they may have. Doesn't change that Tom has put together one hell of a story here so far. You'll find no quarrel from me there... Though I have seen criticisms of Tom's writing, and those critics are the ones I attempted to point out. |
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guyy
Full Member
Posts: 113
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Post by guyy on Aug 31, 2015 17:06:38 GMT
Well, look at that. The in-comic voice of reason just said what I've been saying all along... We already had a probable allusion to Diego (old guy lying in bed, supposedly forced to do something terrible) but for the sake of Annie and anyone who thinks Tony is now absolved of all guilt, I think it was good to spell this one out. To be fair, I no longer think Tony is merely a heartless monster. But he's no less of a jerk. A jerk filled with regret (when drunk) is still a jerk. He needs to actually do something to make up for his actions if he wants to become a better person. |
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Post by keef on Aug 31, 2015 18:15:02 GMT
Anthony was found dead the next day having choked on vomit. It wasn't his vomit. youtu.be/OQ1QHiYsSGEI'm not going to click that link. |
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