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Post by todd on Aug 14, 2015 0:07:24 GMT
Does Anthony know about Annie's links to the Guides? We know about it, but has there ever been any indication in the comic that she'd told him about her meeting them at Good Hope?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 14, 2015 0:41:03 GMT
Also note that he thought of Antimony in the context of "stuff I need" and not "I miss you." If his thoughts were solely on getting stuff, the most logical person was Donald. He was the one with the means to get and send the supplies. Tony's thoughts wandered off to Antimony instead, and that didn't happen because he thought she had a hidden supply of scalpels in her room. Antimony has access to scalpels and other such tools. |
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Post by AluK on Aug 14, 2015 0:48:33 GMT
And you know that because you live inside either Tony's or Tom's head and got some crazy insight into the story to come, because from the story as is, we can't really say either way. His treatment towards Annie stinks of "I know what's best". Or, maybe, it "stinks" of someone that not only is completely and utterly socially inept, but also grieving the loss of possibly the most important person in his life trying to mimic what a good parent is (and failing miserably at it). He's doing it just as much so he doesn't have to live with the guilt of being the one to contribute to her death, based on these pages: - www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1548- www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1549Especially his distance from Annie being based on not wanting to own up to that guilt. Here I am, reading these two pages and trying to figure out how you got that from them. That is someone that not only is wallowing in that guilty, but is also ridden with self-loathing. He fully embraced that guilt and walked the whole nine yards, dude, to the point of thinking "why would my own daughter want to be around me?" And yeah, maybe I don't have insight on Tony, but I'm at least using material from the comic to back up my stance rather than omitting certain details. If by that you mean crazy misreadings of the comic, sure. |
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Post by AluK on Aug 14, 2015 0:49:43 GMT
If his thoughts were solely on getting stuff, the most logical person was Donald. He was the one with the means to get and send the supplies. Tony's thoughts wandered off to Antimony instead, and that didn't happen because he thought she had a hidden supply of scalpels in her room. Antimony has access to scalpels and other such tools. And Antony, as far as we know, had no way to know that. |
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Post by justcurious on Aug 14, 2015 1:11:15 GMT
He forgot to bring a companion that says "Uh, I don't think that's such a good idea" at every juncture.Tony is being judged extremely harshly from an extreme position of privileged information. The main characters have never been commonly condemned as assclowns for repeatedly going seat-of-their-pants into supernatural situations that might just as well have meant extreme danger to themselves and others, but then it wasn't dangerous after all/they got away by the skin of their teeth/it got fixed in a later chapter/the story would have suffered if they didn't/it's just that kind of narrative. How many here are going to take this "lesson" of credulous gumption and apply it to the rest of the cast as we move forward? The protagonists have generally been more systematic and cautious than Anthony. They want to help Jeanne. They know that to try now would be suicide so they are cautiously investigating and only intend to act when they think that the chance of success is good and the danger much less than now. Antimony has done risky things but the risks have been much less obvious than they are here. But then she has never been as desperate. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 14, 2015 1:22:23 GMT
Or, maybe, it "stinks" of someone that not only is completely and utterly socially inept, There are people who despite being socially inept, yet still try to figure out how to be a better person or understand the ones they deal with. Well, the person he deems the most important lives on in a sense through their kids, thus keeping a distance from Annie is in a sense disrespectful towards Surma. Not the mention there are parents who still are quite loving towards their children even when dealing with the loss of a spouse. Fair enough. It's just that "how can she live with the man who killed her mother" gives the impression that it's more important to him to avoid risking rejecting and hate from Annie than it is to be caring and present to her. Though, I do have to repeat an earlier point. If critics and haters need to have all the info before judging Tony, shouldn't fans of the character wait until all info is present before treating him like a saint who is too good for this world? |
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Post by AluK on Aug 14, 2015 1:40:55 GMT
Or, maybe, it "stinks" of someone that not only is completely and utterly socially inept, There are people who despite being socially inept, yet still try to figure out how to be a better person or understand the ones they deal with. That's the thing with people, they behave in all sorts of ways. Just because some cope well with stuff, doesn't mean everyone will. If critics and haters need to have all the info before judging Tony, shouldn't fans of the character wait until all info is present before treating him like a saint who is too good for this world? First, no you don't need all the information, you just need to base your criticism on actual things and not a bunch of balderdash. Second, I don't think anyone here considers him a saint; everyone "defending" him is in agreement that he's a pretty flawed human being, socially myopic as it gets and a pretty crap parent overall - and that ties with the first point, as those are valid criticisms because they're based on stuff that's actually in the comic. |
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Post by AluK on Aug 14, 2015 1:52:39 GMT
The protagonists have generally been more systematic and cautious than Anthony. They want to help Jeanne. They know that to try now would be suicide so they are cautiously investigating and only intend to act when they think that the chance of success is good and the danger much less than now. Antimony has done risky things but the risks have been much less obvious than they are here. But then she has never been as desperate. "Yeah, let's free this ghost that the Court purposely bound down the ravine that separates it from the Forest, for some reason. Nothing bad can come out of it, right?" And also that one time she almost got herself killed at the bridge. Or that other time she almost got herself and George killed by Jeanne. Or the whole Ys thing, you known - dude's crazy and yet she still hangs with him. Or, you known, hanging around Coyote at all. Annie does stupid things of questionable discernment all the time. She's a disaster waiting to happen. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 14, 2015 1:57:04 GMT
Antimony has access to scalpels and other such tools. And Antony, as far as we know, had no way to know that. She'd never been outside the hospital before coming to GC. Who else would have taught her, of if Anthony did not, wouldn't he have known about it? [edit]Anthony is an alum of GC, of course.[/edit] |
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Post by AluK on Aug 14, 2015 2:03:16 GMT
And Antony, as far as we know, had no way to know that. She'd never been outside the hospital before coming to GC. Who else would have taught her, of if Anthony did not, wouldn't he have known about it? And that has no bearing whatsoever on him knowing if she had access to them. Knowledge of their existence? Maybe. Access? Nope. All in all, it would be much easier and simpler just to go straight to Donny to get his stuff. |
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Post by justcurious on Aug 14, 2015 2:10:05 GMT
The protagonists have generally been more systematic and cautious than Anthony. They want to help Jeanne. They know that to try now would be suicide so they are cautiously investigating and only intend to act when they think that the chance of success is good and the danger much less than now. Antimony has done risky things but the risks have been much less obvious than they are here. But then she has never been as desperate. "Yeah, let's free this ghost that the Court purposely bound down the ravine that separates it from the Forest, for some reason. Nothing bad can come out of it, right?" Smith did question whether they should and they all decided that they were still obliged to help her move on. Binding Jeanne there was a wicked, cruel and cowardly act. Undoing it is the right thing to do. The Court thought that this would make them safer. Someone willing to do this does not deserve safety. |
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Post by mordekai on Aug 14, 2015 2:12:35 GMT
The protagonists have generally been more systematic and cautious than Anthony. They want to help Jeanne. They know that to try now would be suicide so they are cautiously investigating and only intend to act when they think that the chance of success is good and the danger much less than now. Antimony has done risky things but the risks have been much less obvious than they are here. But then she has never been as desperate. "Yeah, let's free this ghost that the Court purposely bound down the ravine that separates it from the Forest, for some reason. Nothing bad can come out of it, right?" Well, to tell the truth, everybody who has some knowledge and expertise about the matter (the Psychopomps, the Realm of the Dead) tells her it's the right thing to do and encourages her to do it. If something bad happens it will be mostly their fault. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 14, 2015 2:17:17 GMT
Annie does stupid things of questionable discernment all the time. She's a disaster waiting to happen. Like I said before, it's easier to cut characters some slack when they do things that make them likable. Well, there's the matter of abandonment. No, I'm actually not objecting to sending her to The Court, but if he doesn't feel like he's fit to be with his daughter, why not give custody of her to someone in the position to be attentive and when needed, nurturing Well, to Tony's credit, holding her back a year is fair game. But when people insist that the near isolation bit is justifiable or not acknowledging that part of the punishment to be wrong. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 14, 2015 3:07:45 GMT
She'd never been outside the hospital before coming to GC. Who else would have taught her, of if Anthony did not, wouldn't he have known about it? And that has no bearing whatsoever on him knowing if she had access to them. Knowledge of their existence? Maybe. Access? Nope. All in all, it would be much easier and simpler just to go straight to Donny to get his stuff. Is science school. Access is easy. Antimony would know from being at Good Hope that scalpels go into the sharps biohazard for disposal. Or into the cleaner if they're not disposable tools. If Paz is taking care of the animals that typically includes putting the mice in freezers and quartering them for the young snakes and other small carnivorous reptiles. Tool of choice? Scalpel. They're used in cutting specimens for lab work so they're stored in labs, etc. |
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Post by Draxiss on Aug 14, 2015 5:20:24 GMT
A CONFIRMED AFTERLIFE?! WHAT? Nawwwwwww, this'll turn out to be a "too good to be true" scenario. Figure he dealt with some mean folks. Still it's an interesting twist.
I really want to see what kind of lesson Tom is going to try to make with this. I figure it'll be unexpected, whatever it is.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 14, 2015 6:17:04 GMT
Much of what Tom is doing reminds me of Babylon 5. He gives pieces of the puzzle and we put them together in the most likely way from the evidence that is available to us. But often something feels slightly questionable about how we have put everything together. So we go off making some wild speculations.
But then Tom provides the bits of information that we had been missing, And suddenly things fall together in a different way, a way that makes more sense.
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Post by Refugee on Aug 14, 2015 7:52:36 GMT
Well, to Tony's credit, holding her back a year is fair game. But when people insist that the near isolation bit is justifiable or not acknowledging that part of the punishment to be wrong. Thing is, I'm not seeing "near isolation". I'm seeing "grounded". Annie still goes to class. We've seen that her friends can come to visit, including Kat, the person that Annie's been cheating off of, and thereby put at risk. === Based on what we've seen, up through 1153, "Blood and Bone", I suspect Tony has been lied to and his emotions directly manipulated. If Coyote has donned a herbivorous disguise, he may have edited Tony's memories and emotions in the same way he did for Ys. And if that's true, then Annie, continuing to treat with Coyote after the Court tried to cut her off from his influence, may well as impulsive and reckless as the adults around her think she is. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 14, 2015 7:57:09 GMT
Thing is, I'm not seeing "near isolation". I'm seeing "grounded". Grounding doesn't entail a person living on their own entirely. Even prison inmates get to have visitors though. And if there's the lack of trust that Annie learned her lesson, he might as well lock the room or building she's in. |
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Post by Refugee on Aug 14, 2015 8:20:26 GMT
Thing is, I'm not seeing "near isolation". I'm seeing "grounded". Grounding doesn't entail a person living on their own entirely. Even prison inmates get to have visitors though. And if there's the lack of trust that Annie learned her lesson, he might as well lock the room or building she's in. Funny thing about punishment, even if you've "learned your lesson" when your wrong doing is exposed, you still have to work out your sentence. After all, punishment is supposed to be unpleasant. I also think that Annie is going along with this, not just out of some kind of Stockholm syndrome attempt to appease an abusive parent, but because she has in fact "learned her lesson", to the extent that she acknowledges that she is in fact guilty of a severe offense. And you expect that the first few days and even weeks of something like this will be rather strict. I don't think we've seen more than a week or two of Annie's sentence. I'll also note that the Donlans are engaged with and watching over Annie. Eglamore and Jones are probably also watching over her. Again, I'm not trying to paint Tony as a saint, nor Annie as a hardened criminal. I'm just saying that the situation is not clear cut, and that some of Anthony's actions with respect to Annie are justified, even lenient compared to what might have been assessed against her. (Expulsion, which would likely be a death sentence, or would at least result in enslavement by etheric beings.) |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 14, 2015 8:46:15 GMT
Funny thing about punishment, even if you've "learned your lesson" when your wrong doing is exposed, you still have to work out your sentence. After all, punishment is supposed to be unpleasant. True, but that doesn't mean going to disproportionate means to make things unpleasant. And I think what's basically literal jail time goes beyond acceptable. Otherwise, what would you consider to be an inappropriate form of disciplining a student who cheats on assignments? I could live with that. Providing that she isn't that far from them and they can easily show up if needed. |
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Post by Refugee on Aug 14, 2015 9:16:32 GMT
Otherwise, what would you consider to be an inappropriate form of disciplining a student who cheats on assignments? Complete isolation, with no oversight by Court authorities or other adults. Or, as I've said, expulsion, given Annie's vulnerabilities outside the Court's protection. I admit, her current living quarters are extreme, although accidentally convenient for hiding her elemental. But she is free to come and go as she pleases, as far as we know, and the visits from her friends go far beyond what is normally allowed in prisons or other detention, such as juvie. If cheating were the only thing at issue here, I would expect that as Annie proves she has learned her lesson, and that she is trustworthy, she would be given increasing slack. As it is, given the outside influences now being revealed, I suspect her situation is going to change radically in the very near future. I almost get the impression that you don't take academic cheating quite as seriously as I do, particularly given that she involved someone else over a long period of time. Annie is an extraordinary person, with extraordinary powers and responsibilities. She must understand that her misdeeds will entail extraordinary consequences, especially when she exposes others to risk. Finally, just because her Father is a terrible father doesn't mean that everything he does is wrong. Of all the things he has done, this is perhaps the most appropriate, the most justified. |
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
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Post by Anthony on Aug 14, 2015 9:22:57 GMT
it's interesting how what Tony said in the last panel here agrees with what Donald said in the last panel of this page. Anthony indeed wanted to hear Annie. |
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Post by antiyonder on Aug 14, 2015 9:46:53 GMT
I almost get the impression that you don't take academic cheating quite as seriously as I do, particularly given that she involved someone else over a long period of time. I do see it as a serious problem. I merely questioned whether or not her punishment went beyond an eye for an eye. At the very least, as you stated, the living quarters do go beyond necessary response. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 14, 2015 10:00:03 GMT
Hrm. I think I understand why he didn't want to go back to the Court. He wanted new answers, not the same answers he'd been hearing. And he kept looking until he found someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear, apparently. Even if it wasn't true. Also note that he thought of Antimony in the context of "stuff I need" and not "I miss you." It fits nicely into consistently demonstrated " it's all about ME!" way of thinking, at least. |
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Post by Eversist on Aug 14, 2015 13:53:26 GMT
I think you're confusing two separate things... Tony needed the supplies to make the antenna and potentially communicate with Surma. He thought of Antimony first, to get said things. Not saying that the other thing couldn't be true ("Surma" being inside of Antimony in the form of the fire), but yeah. You're the one who doesn't understand what I'm talking about. When I say he reached Antimony with his etheric antenna instead, I'm not talking about the phone call but about this. As for the "other thing", Renard already explained it.
Alright, sorry for misunderstanding. |
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Post by warrl on Aug 14, 2015 19:48:26 GMT
I'm coming around to the idea that Anthony is not abusive. For me the etheric bone surgery was an important pillar of that charge, and it looks like that was actually just an attempt to contact Surma, and that he had no idea what he was doing. And to a lesser extent the idea that he resented Annie was another pillar to that argument. That clearly isn't the case, he blames himself and thinks she'd be justified in hating him. Which is backwards thinking and very frustrating, but hardly abusive or malicious. Nothing excuses his abandonment of Annie just after Surma's death, and his idea that he needs to be cruel and cold to her because she would hate him if she "knew he killed her mother" reaches incredible levels of stupid. He has a lot to make amends for, and I doubt he has the tools to ever be much of a father to Annie. But no, after learning this about the antenna, I'm not sure I'd use the word abusive anymore. Some other words I might use though include arrogant, overconfident, emotionally and socially retarded, deluded, dense, self-centered, neglectful, ignorant, and oblivious. Sorry, but the etheric surgery is just one among many examples of his abusive behavior. It stands alongside: * coldness to her in the hospital * abandonment for three years * failure to contact her promptly upon his return * failure to inform her that she's being held back a year before she wastes a chunk of a school day in classes she won't be in (and thus misses the same number of classes she will be in) * singling her out for humiliation in front of her friends and (presumed) classmates * scorning her concern for him * belittling her accomplishments * stripping her of responsibilities she has earned and is handling well * removing her friends (particularly Reynard and the forest folks) * isolating her (solitary residence) (Note: I don't count things he should have done that we haven't seen, unless I'm aware of specific reasons to believe he didn't do them off-camera. Example: a talk about why Annie was cheating and what should be accomplished by putting her back a year. That conversation definitely did not occur at the best time, but it could have occurred since then - and perfection is not required.) Your other words might explain *why* he behaves that way, but they don't change the fact that the behavior is abusive. (And of course very few abusers intend to do things they think are abusive, or see themselves as abusive.) |
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Post by Fishy on Aug 14, 2015 20:12:45 GMT
I'm getting the feeling here that Zimmy on bone lasers didn't cause the loss of arm, but that the loss of arm caused the bone lasers.
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Post by stef1987 on Aug 15, 2015 9:14:49 GMT
It really seems like Tony has no idea that Annie can contact the psychopomps,
but that makes no sense IMO,
because Tony knows Surma could, he know's the fire in her is going to their daughter, yet it didn't occur to him that Annie will come in contact with the psychopomps?
was he completely unaware of Annie's contact with them in the hospital?
did Surma not tell Tony anything?
(also, couldn't he just ask stuff to the psychopomps through Surma, before she died?)
It really doesn't make much sense IMO
Also, there was a frigging ghost living in the court, he could ask him about stuff, don't tell me he didn't know about Mort, cause seriously
(actually, multiple ghosts as I recall, remember the haunted mandoline (or whatever it was))
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Post by mordekai on Aug 15, 2015 9:31:57 GMT
It really seems like Tony has no idea that Annie can contact the psychopomps, but that makes no sense IMO, because Tony knows Surma could, he know's the fire in her is going to their daughter, yet it didn't occur to him that Annie will come in contact with the psychopomps? was he completely unaware of Annie's contact with them in the hospital? did Surma not tell Tony anything? (also, couldn't he just ask stuff to the psychopomps through Surma, before she died?) It really doesn't make much sense IMO Also, there was a frigging ghost living in the court, he could ask him about stuff, don't tell me he didn't know about Mort, cause seriously (actually, multiple ghosts as I recall, remember the haunted mandoline (or whatever it was)) As I said before, I don't think Anthony knew what was happening to Surma, and that her essence and skills would be inherited by Annie. Surma probably knew that he was unable to understand or accept it, and resigned herself to her fate while allowing him to believe that he could save her. Also, the guy seems to be so repulsed by magic that he refused to learn anything about it during all his years at the Court. After the last couple of pages, I am getting the impression that Tony was strongarmed back into the Court via Annie's cheating after discovering something on his journey that the Court very much wants, but has until now been unable to obtain. I think part of the reason he was so rude to Annie initially was that he was genuinely upset, possibly even livid at the fact that that Court had this up on him, and that he'd had to comply to keep her from being expelled. He loves his daughter (very awkwardly), but he was really, REALLY pissed off at the whole mess her cheating had inadvertently got him into. Not sure about that. The guy seems a competent doctor and scientist, maybe even a genius, but inept when it comes to etherical issues. His attitude, before his wife's death, seemed to be covering his ears and singing "La-la-la-la-la! There is no thing like magic! No, sir!". I mean, "after all those years I still couldn't find a medical explanation to what happened to her"?! WTF?! What does "medical science" know about freaking Fire Elementals? And that from a guy that grew side by side with supernatural creatures, next to a magical forest...He knew about supernatural creatures, he knew about Surma's elemental heritage, his best friend and the wife of the latter built a magical computers to capture a magical fox, he was friends with a Valkyre when he was younger, he knew that there are two freaking houses full of magical creatures in the Court, and that some humans become animals and go to the Forest sometimes... but he still tried to save Surma's life using medical science only and didn't try to explore supernatural solutions until it was too late. I think Surma knew he couldn't save her. She didn't even bother telling him about their daughter's abilities. And he still seems utterly ignorant about those, by the way. If he bumped into something important in relation to the ether, it was because a third party planted it in his path and pushed him to the right direction. Otherwise, he would have walked by it without noticing it. and... As I thought, Anthony is etherically illiterate. He's the reverse image of that guy who thought that steam machines were powered by Satan. |
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