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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 12, 2015 11:32:38 GMT
Hrm. I think I understand why he didn't want to go back to the Court. He wanted new answers, not the same answers he'd been hearing. And he kept looking until he found someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear, apparently. Even if it wasn't true.
Also note that he thought of Antimony in the context of "stuff I need" and not "I miss you."
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Post by AluK on Aug 12, 2015 11:37:13 GMT
Also note that he thought of Antimony in the context of "stuff I need" and not "I miss you." Or, maybe, people that I can count on to get stuff that I need. Or people that I can trust that live in the Court and, thus, can get ahold of the things that I need. Or people that I know that are smart enough to figure out this thing. Or possibly a combination of all these things and others. It's not so clear cut. |
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Ombre
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Post by Ombre on Aug 12, 2015 11:37:25 GMT
Um... one of these creepy figures looks like a skeletal Coyote. Doesn't it ?  |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Aug 12, 2015 11:48:37 GMT
It really seems like some supernatural beings were out to screw with him.
The guides, as a whole, would really not be inclined to lead someone on a chase like this. Similarly, ghosts as we have seen up to now tend to manifest in the physical world. Hardly "a world beyond our own". I doubt anyone in the RotD would lead him on like this. Or at least, I'd hope not.
Poor Anthony. I can only imagine what his reaction to being punched out by Zimmy is going to sound like.
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Post by kalechibki on Aug 12, 2015 12:17:47 GMT
The antenna didn't reach Surma, it reached the fire elemental inside Annie. That's why she was in coma, that's where the bone fingers came from. Which means he did it unknowingly. Whether these "guides" knew what was going on is another question. For instance, the idea that people exist after dying and being absorbed back into the ether seems to directly contradict what we know, right? Your soul goes back into the ether, and the ether continues to "keep the world spinning" and new lives take ether on as their souls. It's only when lots of beings with beliefs die and enter the general gestalt of the ether does the ether warp reality to conform to their notions. But people surviving past death, Surma still existing...this should be impossible right? Does that mean these "guides" are lying to Tony? Are they malevolent? Are they imposters? I know I was ninja'd on this, but I really want to put these two thoughts together... Um... one of these creepy figures looks like a skeletal Coyote. Doesn't it ? |
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Post by philman on Aug 12, 2015 12:21:31 GMT
That was my thought too, especially given Tony was surprised to hear the message came through on a phone, in the same way all the RotD stuff looked like technology and people in silly masks to Kat, to most other people (like Tony) it looks like spectral figures and creepy caves and stuff. Tony has manged to find his way to the Realm of the Dead to ask questions. And we know they don't exactly give good answers, and the guides and RotD don't exactly get along either as we have seen. Except the Realm of the Dead is where you find dead people. As far as we know that's not where psychopomps live. They probably have their own realm within the ether. We're assuming Tony knows the difference between Psychopomps and the RotD? |
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lero
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Post by lero on Aug 12, 2015 13:06:53 GMT
Um... one of these creepy figures looks like a skeletal Coyote. Doesn't it ? Do you mean the one in panel 3? It does appear to be laughing, but it's not a coyote. It has a hoof, and the skull resembles that of a deer (all those molars, no canines). |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 12, 2015 13:12:59 GMT
Well, this new revelation is both better and worse.
He wasn't trying to perform surgery on his daughter, so that is a relief. Instead, he was just meddling with forces he did not understand, with consequences he did could not have predicted, to do something he wasn't sure was possible, based on faith in beings he neither knew nor trusted, via means he did not know existed.
Nope. Nothing wrong there.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 12, 2015 13:33:32 GMT
This chapter continues to throw all speculations into a tailspin. My reactions to this page, in no particular order:
Panel 3 really does look like Coyote. The teeth are different, but it might still be him (since we have no idea how non-etheric Anthony would see him)...
As far as we know, there is no reaching souls in the ether. The existence of Brinnie and valkyries is not a contradiction, since there is WoT that some souls go to an afterlife before moving on to the ether. I'm inclined not to want to overturn everything we know about the comic based on one page.
Personally, I don't think this is the RotD or the Guides. Neither has a reason to lie to him, and it just feels wrong somehow. On the other hand, on a meta level, they both are going to be more tied into the story eventually, so it's possible. I'd assume that Kat and Anthony would see the ether in a similar way? If so, this can't be the RotD.
He says he couldn't reply. But, if this is the phone call, he did reply to give her the message to pass on to Donny. Something remains to be explained here.
He says that Antimony was the "first person he thought of"...in terms of materials for his array? Or in terms of...what?
The first panel, though, shows Tony's motivation clearly. He's desperate to look for a way to delude himself into thinking he can solve everything, and make up for 'failing' his wife...and those crazy eyes...Being driven by guilt can cause characters to do horrible thing...
[/ramble]
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Post by ctso74 on Aug 12, 2015 13:41:00 GMT
I can only imagine what his reaction to being punched out by Zimmy is going to sound like. Also, the events at the end, when Zimmy punched Tony saying "Message from yer little girl mate", Tony will have heard that, and now thinks that Annie is somehow preventing him from speaking to his dead wife, not realising that the part of his dead wife that is still here is inside Annie, as the fire. I imagine the "from yer little girl" part would be significant to him, if he believes it. Maybe, he'll think she got assistance from the Forest, thus his immediate grounding of Annie. He wasn't trying to perform surgery on his daughter, so that is a relief. Instead, he was just meddling with forces he did not understand, with consequences he did could not have predicted, to do something he wasn't sure was possible, based on faith in beings he neither knew nor trusted, via means he did not know existed. Desperation is desperate. Again, very Lovecraftian. I'm loving it so much. We still know very little about the Ether. We do know, that there are psychopomps for insects and other animals. I wonder, what happens to psychopomps whose designated creatures have gone extinct? We know those killed by Jeanne went through the RotD before passing on, but if they die slowly, what happens before that? Do they go mad? |
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Post by mordekai on Aug 12, 2015 13:44:40 GMT
BULLSHIT!!!!! AFRICAN ELEPHANT BULL HOT STINKY STEAMING PILE OF SHIT!!!
That chump has been duped! The real Psichopomps would tell him that the dead lose their memories and identities when they go to the Ether, like Mort did! And they would know Surma by name, and would know that there wasn't much of her spirit left before going into the ether!
And an antenna?! The mystical Psichopomps giving him the blueprints of an antenna?... Pfff! None of the etheric creatures we have seen so far understands or cares for electronics! They are creatures of allegory and symbology, not of technology!.
As I thought, Anthony is etherically illiterate. He's the reverse image of that guy who thought that steam machines were powered by Satan.
And yes, I bet it was Antimony's elemental spirit he contacted, and not Surma.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 12, 2015 13:48:55 GMT
Hmm. I eagerly await what Zimmy's fiery fist looks like.
The Tony we see here still doesn't fit with the cold, dismissive, semi-emotionally-abusive Tony we saw in Chapter 51...
So I'm guessing that, whether or not the 'antenna' worked, he blames Annie for the destruction of the link at Zimmy/Annie's hands.
And depending on what he saw, possibly Surma's death as well?
There's the (small) possibility that the Fire Elemental retained some or all of Surma's memories, so he really was talking to her in a fashion.
Whatever the link was, though, it really didn't seem to be good for Annie...
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Post by calpal on Aug 12, 2015 14:01:30 GMT
If those things ARE psychopomps, they all appear to be ones for animals, the first one is maybe bats? Aside from the compound eyes, the second one is maybe seabirds (the skull looks like a SeaGull's or maybe Albatross) or just birds in general?, the third one is some sort of herbivore, no idea what though. I think the first one is a bug, those look like compound eyes on its face and only bugs (or I think some crustaceans?) have them; beyond that I couldn't say. Definitely agree the second one is an Albatross; they have longer beaks than seagulls. The third one I'm going to put money down as a deer, the lower jaw looks almost the same in pictures of deer skulls. |
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Bill
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Post by Bill on Aug 12, 2015 14:15:19 GMT
OK, on Monday it was mentioned that the creatures looked Zimmy-ish. Oh. My. God. We know time shenanigans can happen with Zimmy involved. We know she etherically punched Tony in the face. Tony looks exactly like he got punched in the face. We even know that Zimmy can transport people to a "place unreachable by physical travel" that is often "like a walking dream." |
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Sadie
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Post by Sadie on Aug 12, 2015 14:31:46 GMT
Tony's magical etheric message from a world beyond the physical came through as a mundane telephone transferred from inside the Court?
HAHAHA SURE THAT'S NOT SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.
His face in panel three is really bothering me, because he already looks like a man who's been sucker punched and I'm just sitting here like... what Tony, the physical toll for getting there was your face getting beat in? Do you get punched a SECOND time by Zimmy?
I'm pretty sure Zimmy's abilities don't include time traveling, because if they did, I'd say she'd accidentally punched past-Tony in Divine and unintentionally triggered Tony's entire spirit-walk with dubious maybe-Guides.
EDIT: Coming back to add to this rather than clutter up space with more posts.
I cannot get over how much "they showed me how to construct an antenna... one that would reach out into this... ether" bothers me.
1) Building antenna/devices that reach into the ether is 100% a Court activity, not in the least something that an etheric/non-human being would give a shit to do. They have no need! Even the creatures that don't use the ether wouldn't, because they probably know someone who can do it naturally or they just accept that it's not in their wheelhouse and move on with life.
But what the hell would the Court gain from tricking Anthony Carver into trying to contact his dead wife? Do they, too, not know about Surma's fire going into Annie or were they creating a scenario to test or prove that concept? But again, why go through this elaborate set-up?
2) "into this... ether" - Ok, all this time, I haven't bought into the idea that Tony doesn't know about the ether, because he a) went to school at and worked for a place that studies the ether, b) his best friend married a woman that uses it and picked up using it himself, c) he married a woman who both uses it and isn't fully human.
Now he's here talking like it's a completely new, foreign concept and I'm baffled, boggled, and completely suspicious.
I mean, Kat is our resident cynic and she's apparently learned more about the ether and the afterlife after three years of being Annie's friend, than Tony apparently did after 12 + years of being married to Surma.
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Sadie
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Post by Sadie on Aug 12, 2015 14:34:13 GMT
OK, on Monday it was mentioned that the creatures looked Zimmy-ish. Oh. My. God. We know time shenanigans can happen with Zimmy involved. We know she etherically punched Tony in the face. Tony looks exactly like he got punched in the face. We even know that Zimmy can transport people to a "place unreachable by physical travel" that is often "like a walking dream." I WAS JUST SAYING... but is affecting the past really something she can do? I know she can see into the future and that being in Zimmy-burg does have an aspect of being outside of time, but but.... |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 12, 2015 15:49:27 GMT
I will admit to the forum that my my opinion of Tomy has changed, from ass-hat to ass-clown.
And I think he is more dangerous getting suckered into blundering around with things he doesn't understand than he would be coldly executing a thought out plan.
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Bill
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Post by Bill on Aug 12, 2015 15:54:35 GMT
Sadie, we shall soon see (maybe). Personally I'm picturing him getting the message from Zimmy, immediately waking up from this 'dream', and finding himself minus an arm. EDIT: I agree with your above edit. Except that etheric beings would know best how to contact someone/thing in the ether. Whether they would know how to make a device is another matter entirely, but some of them likely understand the necessary theory. Aside, I wonder how much Annie remembers from the ch.38 'dream'. She and Kat clearly did not compare notes though...
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loner
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Post by loner on Aug 12, 2015 15:54:49 GMT
Ah, we still don't get to see Tony's right hand... I seriously think this is where it got damaged to the point of having to amputate it later.
Maybe just a bad wound, and it got infected ?
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Post by Eversist on Aug 12, 2015 16:04:32 GMT
Well, that explains a lot. No wonder Anja's computer couldn't locate him. I don't think Tony was trying to bring Surma back, all that was given to him was a mean of communication. He wanted to talk to her. And he reached Annie instead, since she is the current owner of Surma's etheric being. I think you're confusing two separate things... Tony needed the supplies to make the antenna and potentially communicate with Surma. He thought of Antimony first, to get said things. Not saying that the other thing couldn't be true ("Surma" being inside of Antimony in the form of the fire), but yeah. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Aug 12, 2015 16:27:46 GMT
Tony falls in with a bad crowd.  Coyote would have a field day with Tony. Such...credulous gumption...would be an amazing toy to play with. |
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Post by Trillium on Aug 12, 2015 16:44:50 GMT
Tony's magical etheric message from a world beyond the physical came through as a mundane telephone transferred from inside the Court? HAHAHA SURE THAT'S NOT SUSPICIOUS AT ALL. His face in panel three is really bothering me, because he already looks like a man who's been sucker punched and I'm just sitting here like... what Tony, the physical toll for getting there was your face getting beat in? Do you get punched a SECOND time by Zimmy? I'm pretty sure Zimmy's abilities don't include time traveling, because if they did, I'd say she'd accidentally punched past-Tony in Divine and unintentionally triggered Tony's entire spirit-walk with dubious maybe-Guides. Anthony's journey just keeps getting weirder. So while on Walk About Tony ends up Crazy Land. His"guides" help him make a phone call. That call goes to Jones's phone. Annie is asked for, Jones gives her the phone and an operator says, "Transferring a call, Ms. Carver." Really how's that for weird? What is truly ironic about all this is that Jones might be the one person at court who would be able to best advise Tony on what to do during his quest. We can't tell if the Court is involved or not. Numerous beings wander in and out of the Court without so much as a by your leave. Even humans like Donald circumvent space by wandering through doorways they open. Whoever was running this scam on Tony didn't mind messing with the Court. I don't think Zimmy comes into play in this story until Tony is actively trying to see Surma and Annie is in a coma. Whatever these critters are they seem to be in their own pocket of existence and it looks different from Zimmyville. Tony paid a physical toll to get to where he was. We didn't see how he was injured. As for what he was seeing, it might have been only what they let him see, what he expected to see or only what his mind would let him see and still stay sane or mostly sane. Whatever these creatures are they might have been mixing truth with lies or telling the truth in that from one point of view Tony would be seeing Surma again if he saw the elemental in Antimony. A great deal of what Surma was passed to Annie with the flame. None of this is what I thought was happening on Tony's end during the events of Divine. I thought if Tony was doing this it was happening in a sterile operating room with some kind of etheric interface. As it turns out Tony wasn't in charge; he had fallen down a dark and creepy rabbit hole full of terrifying creatures. He didn't know what he had gotten into nor what he was doing. He may have started this trip looking to answer the question of what happened to his wife and maybe how to keep it from happening to Annie. But he got sidetracked with the possibility he could see his wife again. Don't most legends about that sort of quest end badly? |
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Kya
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Post by Kya on Aug 12, 2015 16:51:31 GMT
I don't see this man as a manipulating monster anymore, I see a broken man who dosn't know 'how to father' at all.
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Post by nero on Aug 12, 2015 16:56:31 GMT
Donny take note of that face in the first panel. Will we find out what the real identity of those beings are? Is it really a trick from the Court? I'm wondering how this will end and what Annie's reaction is.
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Post by atteSmythe on Aug 12, 2015 17:11:11 GMT
That was my thought too, especially given Tony was surprised to hear the message came through on a phone, in the same way all the RotD stuff looked like technology and people in silly masks to Kat, to most other people (like Tony) it looks like spectral figures and creepy caves and stuff. Tony has manged to find his way to the Realm of the Dead to ask questions. And we know they don't exactly give good answers, and the guides and RotD don't exactly get along either as we have seen. Except the Realm of the Dead is where you find dead people. As far as we know that's not where psychopomps live. They probably have their own realm within the ether. It would make sense to me if he went looking for Psychopomps, but found the Realm of the Dead instead. Edit: Or, more likely, some third party |
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Post by hp on Aug 12, 2015 17:14:48 GMT
You guys are saying he was duped into reaching to the fire elemental because it was once part of Surma, but I don't think that's where this page leads us.
Firstly, because Anthony KNOWS that Surma's elemental is now part of Annie. His initial "mission" was exactly to stop Surma from dying from that transfer.
Secondly, his wording on what the alleged psychopomps said was pretty clear and specific: "they said the dead continue to exist in a world beyond our own". Of course, it could be a lie or a half-truth hiding some catch, and they could be something other than psychopomps. But it seems they were refering to all the dead actually existing in some other plane of existence... Not just special cases, like elementals who used to be part of mothers and now live inside daughters.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 12, 2015 17:38:37 GMT
I will admit to the forum that my my opinion of Tomy has changed, from ass-hat to ass-clown. And I think he is more dangerous getting suckered into blundering around with things he doesn't understand than he would be coldly executing a thought out plan. I'm unsure on both counts. With respect to the former, he may be much more sympathetic right now, but we still have no explanation for why he would act like he did towards Annie. Something big is still missing, since the Anthony we see here has no motivation to be actively hostile towards his daughter. Such a motivation might be if he thinks "Annie" ruined his one and only chance to speak to his lost wife. I'm waiting to further form conclusions until we finish this flashback, though. It could range anywhere from Tony saying, "Oh, I wish I did not have to act so coldly towards Annie! But the Court suspects my collusion with the Forces of Ether, and I must act exactly as they want to prevent them from destroying everything I care about!" to "I know now that Annie holds the last remains of my wife within herself. To have my wife back, I must give her an etheric lobotomy to separate the Elemental from her. I know love makes me act in strange ways...but it will be worth it."And with respect to the latter, both could be really, really dangerous depending on what that thought-out plan would be. A loose cannon makes me more nervous for the future of our protagonists, however... OK, on Monday it was mentioned that the creatures looked Zimmy-ish. Oh. My. God. We know time shenanigans can happen with Zimmy involved. We know she etherically punched Tony in the face. Tony looks exactly like he got punched in the face. We even know that Zimmy can transport people to a "place unreachable by physical travel" that is often "like a walking dream." Honestly, I think that "Zimmy-ish" is just how Tom tends to draw "eldritch abomination". For example, Coyote and the Love Boat and the RotD Guy all look relatively similar...In particular, the exposed skeletons. I'm pretty sure Zimmy's abilities don't include time traveling, because if they did, I'd say she'd accidentally punched past-Tony in Divine and unintentionally triggered Tony's entire spirit-walk with dubious maybe-Guides. Zimmy's abilities appear to include at least some sort of minor time-manipulation. But she has no control over her abilities or how/when they manifest, so I doubt she could punch Tony in the past even if she tried. I cannot get over how much "they showed me how to construct an antenna... one that would reach out into this... ether" bothers me. And an antenna?! The mystical Psychopomps giving him the blueprints of an antenna?... Pfff! None of the etheric creatures we have seen so far understands or cares for electronics! They are creatures of allegory and symbology, not of technology! Note, however, that they could be showing him a divining wand or etheric ouija board, and he'd just be interpreting it as a transmitter (since that is how a man of science sends messages). After all, the Ether is a magic of symbology, but not everyone sees the same symbols or interprets them in the same ways (reference: Ch46). Now, if the "Psychopomps" had specifically called it a transmitter, I'd be amenable to using it as evidence against them being the real deal. As is, though, we're seeing it through Tony's perspective, so it's reasonable. Ah, we still don't get to see Tony's right hand... I seriously think this is where it got damaged to the point of having to amputate it later. I think that the "connection fee" that Tom jokingly refers to in today's comment might be a literal, physical sacrifice - possibly including his arm. It probably doesn't help that, if the bone lasers are his metacarpals, Zimmy may have also set them on fire. Anthony's journey just keeps getting weirder. I'm honestly starting to wonder whether the bonus page in this chapter will be a stinger with Tony lying on the floor in Good Hope on a really bad acid trip. |
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Post by aline on Aug 12, 2015 18:08:38 GMT
Well, that explains a lot. No wonder Anja's computer couldn't locate him. I don't think Tony was trying to bring Surma back, all that was given to him was a mean of communication. He wanted to talk to her. And he reached Annie instead, since she is the current owner of Surma's etheric being.
I think you're confusing two separate things... Tony needed the supplies to make the antenna and potentially communicate with Surma. He thought of Antimony first, to get said things. Not saying that the other thing couldn't be true ("Surma" being inside of Antimony in the form of the fire), but yeah. You're the one who doesn't understand what I'm talking about. When I say he reached Antimony with his etheric antenna instead, I'm not talking about the phone call but about this. As for the "other thing", Renard already explained it.
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Post by aline on Aug 12, 2015 18:23:13 GMT
It would make sense to me if he went looking for Psychopomps, but found the Realm of the Dead instead. Except none of his memories look anything like the RotD we've seen before. Not just what that physically looks like (let's assume that can vary from person to person), but the behavior and demeanor of the people in it. We have no indication that it's where he landed. On the other side, we've seen creepy looking psychopomps with manipulating tendencies before. I'm assuming psychopomps or third party for now
Um... one of these creepy figures looks like a skeletal Coyote. Doesn't it ? Interesting theory... but I don't really think... Any dog-like animal in advanced state of decomposition can look like that. Also note that he thought of Antimony in the context of "stuff I need" and not "I miss you." If his thoughts were solely on getting stuff, the most logical person was Donald. He was the one with the means to get and send the supplies. Tony's thoughts wandered off to Antimony instead, and that didn't happen because he thought she had a hidden supply of scalpels in her room. |
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Post by stclair on Aug 12, 2015 18:30:46 GMT
... you poor deluded fool. I love how Tom takes the "lone hero, looking for answers, and offering even bits of himself up" and turns it around into "because I couldn't ask anyone for help I almost killed myself and my daughter". Seems being the lone hero is dramatic but inefficient. and how many times has Annie taken it upon herself (and only herself) to do similar? "Apple", indeed. |
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