|
|
Post by antiyonder on Aug 3, 2015 20:58:54 GMT
1. Yeah, Surma may share fault in the current events, but Anthony being alive could still potentially grow up and do the right thing in the end. 2. No sympathy for him from me. I mean when things like vasectomy can prevent childbirth altogether and the hazard that Surma would face, Anthony brought it on himself. And frankly conceiving Annie while knowing the risk was a product of Tony thinking that he's perfect in science and was more concerned with proving something rather than doing good for others. I mean it's a no brainer than kids don't make the choice to be born, that's the decision of the parents doing the deed and not getting surgery done to eliminate the possibility of conception. Maybe personal attachments make Annie's "fire elemental life force" burn faster or something. That's why Anthony made sure she was away from Reynard, Kat and all her friends and tries so hard to make her hate him. Meh. Even if that's the case, I think a short happy life where one is loved, and happy is better than living for possibly a hundred or so years while feeling miserable and lonely. |
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Aug 3, 2015 21:05:25 GMT
- Chose not to prepare her daughter for her own certain death, how to deal with the fire elemental side, etc. We don't know if the other way around would have been really better for Annie. Tom said on one occasion that Surma herself always knew what she was and how she'd die. If she acted differently with her daughter, she can't have felt that comfortable with so much early knowledge. Maybe she hoped that Tony would find a solution to the problem before it became necessary to brush the subject. "The grass is always greener", they say. I could absolutely see Surma growing up and struggling with the knowledge that her mother is dying because of her, coming to resent ever having been told, and later wishing that she'd been allowed to spend her childhood in blissful ignorance. I don't think a situation like this HAS any one good way to deal with it. It's all subjective. Maybe Annie would've benefited from knowing sooner and having her mother alive and present to help her come to terms with it. Maybe Surma would've benefited from being raised in ignorance the way Annie was. Maybe she wouldn't have, but thought so because the way she was raised was hard enough. Speculation!! |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 3, 2015 22:19:07 GMT
(...) Maybe personal attachments make Annie's "fire elemental life force" burn faster or something. That's why Anthony made sure she was away from Reynard, Kat and all her friends and tries so hard to make her hate him. Meh. Even if that's the case, I think a short happy life where one is loved, and happy is better than living for possibly a hundred or so years while feeling miserable and lonely. Not if he still believes he can "save" Annie and just needs more time to figure it out. You can always fall into a "The Fountain" situation, where the guy focuses so much on saving his dying wife that he ends up neglecting their relationship. But maybe Anthony is so selfless he thinks it better that she hates him through her long life with her family and kids than dying in her twenties after giving birth to a child. |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 3, 2015 22:26:10 GMT
Remember, Surma assured Annie at the hospital that Anthony loved her, even though their personalities were so different and her way of displaying love was pretty more open. Donald, who knows him since childhood, told Annie that Anthony sending his secret message through her meant he cared about her.
There's something fishy about this "awful parent" thing. I don't buy it, I think it's an act.
|
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Aug 3, 2015 22:30:21 GMT
(...) Meh. Even if that's the case, I think a short happy life where one is loved, and happy is better than living for possibly a hundred or so years while feeling miserable and lonely. Not if he still believes he can "save" Annie and just needs more time to figure it out. You can always fall into a "The Fountain" situation, where the guy focuses so much on saving his dying wife that he ends up neglecting their relationship. But maybe Anthony is so selfless he thinks it better that she hates him through her long life with her family and kids than dying in her twenties after giving birth to a child. If said attempt at saving them physically screws them over emotionally and mentally, then it's really pointless unless they are in a position to recover. Remember, Surma assured Annie at the hospital that Anthony loved her, even though their personalities were so different and her way of displaying love was pretty more open. Donald, who knows him since childhood, told Annie that Anthony sending his secret message through her meant he cared about her. Ehh. Caring about someone means that you sacrifice your needs for the other person, and lately it seems like he sacrificed her emotional needs so that he could feel good. |
|
|
|
Post by Trillium on Aug 3, 2015 22:32:19 GMT
Some information Tom has dropped here and there:
Tony isn't one for showing a lot of emotion.
Tony and Surma left before Surma got pregnant.
Both Tony and Surma knew what would happen if Surma had a child.
Annie is the child of Tony and Surma.
Annie was no accident.
Surma could have postponed having a child in order to live longer.
Surma never regretted having Annie.
|
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Aug 3, 2015 22:50:44 GMT
But maybe Anthony is so selfless he thinks it better that she hates him through her long life with her family and kids than dying in her twenties after giving birth to a child. Er well, a family and kids she wouldn't be able to have if emotional connections really did burn out her life faster as you suggest. Your suggestions really lay out the exact things I wouldn't want to see happening -- increasingly convoluted explanations and situations to remove even the hint that Anthony isn't completely in earnest and completely deserving of Antimony's faith and devotion (if only she just knew!!!) Don't get me wrong, I love a character who makes hard decisions because they think it's what's right. But even well-meaning characters trip over their own flaws and make decisions based on ego, insecurity, and selfishness. Every decision is informed by bias. I've yet to see a story convince me that "it's better for them to hate me" is a selfless act, because 99% of the time, it comes from an egotistical mindset - the idea that you can know what's "better" for someone else without ever asking them. Anthony having made bad decisions based on personal issues doesn't mean he's a monster. He's a person who done some hurtful things. He can recover, if he's willing to do the work. Antimony learning her father isn't a perfect being and that she has the right to be mad at him and ask support from him not only makes for excellent storytelling, but is something very real that a lot of people go through. |
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Aug 3, 2015 22:56:34 GMT
Er well, a family and kids she wouldn't be able to have if emotional connections really did burn out her life faster as you suggest. This. One could even argue that she would have a really hard time giving intimate trust to a man after her father let her down badly. Thus defeating the purpose Anthony is possibly trying to achieve. |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 3, 2015 23:09:05 GMT
But maybe Anthony is so selfless he thinks it better that she hates him through her long life with her family and kids than dying in her twenties after giving birth to a child. Er well, a family and kids she wouldn't be able to have if emotional connections really did burn out her life faster as you suggest. (...) You got me wrong. What I meant is, maybe Anthony is keeping her away from emotional connections until he can figure a way to assure she can survive her "condition" and live a long life with her kids. I.e., Anthony would be trying to postpone Annie's "burnout" until he can make it safe for her to have that family and kids. If the price for achieving that is having Annie hate him, he could be willing to pay it. (But keep in mind all this is overguessing around that wild conjecture about her emotional connections) |
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Aug 3, 2015 23:11:26 GMT
I.e., Anthony would be trying to postpone Annie's "burnout" until he can make it safe for her to have that family and kids. If the price for achieving that is having Annie hate him, he could be willing to pay it. And if that hate prevents her from trusting a man intimately enough to form relations with? |
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Aug 3, 2015 23:30:37 GMT
You got me wrong. What I meant is, maybe Anthony is keeping her away from emotional connections until he can figure a way to assure she can survive her "condition" and live a long life with her kids. I.e., Anthony would be trying to postpone Annie's "burnout" until he can make it safe for her to have that family and kids. If the price for achieving that is having Annie hate him, he could be willing to pay it. (But keep in mind all this is overguessing around that wild conjecture about her emotional connections) Ah, I see. And still invokes the question of why not ask her and give her a choice if she's willing to try spending a few years in isolation for a "fix" that may or may not ever come, instead of egotistically deciding it's better to keep her in hurting, lonely ignorance for that possible, unseen future. BUT STILL YES OVER-GUESSING. I didn't mean to dig too deep into this part and I'm not innocent on the over-reading and speculating front. I'm literally just asking "what's wrong with him being a bad parent because of his personal issues and everyone dealing with the fallout, it makes for such a good story, why is important for him to have been completely justified and excused all along, it's so much less INTERESTING" |
|
|
|
Post by todd on Aug 4, 2015 0:16:56 GMT
It has been fairly clear for a while that Surma wanted nothing more to do with the Court after the Reynard affair. It wasn't hard to imagine that she also didn't want to have her child in the Court either. . I can't say I blame Surma for that - based on what I've seen of the Court so far, I question whether it's a safe place to have children. Would you want children in a research establishment filled with dangerous etheric experiments, and next door to a forest filled with mythical creatures who aren't too happy about the Court's presence? |
|
|
|
Post by sapientcoffee on Aug 4, 2015 1:59:20 GMT
You can always fall into a "The Fountain" situation, where the guy focuses so much on saving his dying wife that he ends up neglecting their relationship. Are you talking about the movie or something else? I didn't view the movie that way so I'm curious. |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 4, 2015 2:02:00 GMT
BUT STILL YES OVER-GUESSING. I didn't mean to dig too deep into this part and I'm not innocent on the over-reading and speculating front. I'm literally just asking "what's wrong with him being a bad parent because of his personal issues and everyone dealing with the fallout, it makes for such a good story, why is important for him to have been completely justified and excused all along, it's so much less INTERESTING" Nothing inherently right or wrong about either "approach". I`d be up for both, and Tom certainlly could pull any of them off. Nevertheless, judging from the way the plot of their relationship is going, it just doesn`t seem like we`re heading for a simple "parent making bad call due to inner turmoil" situation. I guess it would also feel like a detour from Gunnerkrigg Court`s usual tone. Ah, I see. And still invokes the question of why not ask her and give her a choice if she's willing to try spending a few years in isolation for a "fix" that may or may not ever come, instead of egotistically deciding it's better to keep her in hurting, lonely ignorance for that possible, unseen future. See? there would be the bad call leading to fallout. LAUGHING ON LINE |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 4, 2015 2:05:35 GMT
You can always fall into a "The Fountain" situation, where the guy focuses so much on saving his dying wife that he ends up neglecting their relationship. Are you talking about the movie or something else? I didn't view the movie that way so I'm curious. Precisely. You should watch it, it`s awesome. One of the most visual and intellectual instiganting movies I`ve seen. A wild ride. Actually it`s a love-or-hate movie. But if you likeit, you`re gonna love it. LAUGHING ON LINE |
|
|
|
Post by sapientcoffee on Aug 4, 2015 2:11:20 GMT
I have seen it, I just don't agree that he neglected their relationship.
It did make watching Paranorman kinda weird, "Hang on, this is from The Fountain! (kinda)"
|
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 4, 2015 2:22:08 GMT
I have seen it, I just don't agree that he neglected their relationship. It did make watching Paranorman kinda weird, "Hang on, this is from The Fountain! (kinda)" Oh sorry, I missed the expression "that way" on your other post. Thought you were saying that you haven`t watched it. I`m trying not to spoil anything for those who haven`t seen it, but in the begining of the movie Tommy is obsessed with finding a cure for his wife, even refusing her pleas for company and leaving to check his lab monkey |
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 4, 2015 2:28:55 GMT
Kat got her big nose from her dad. I didn't really notice until this page, may be because he is usually drawn in low resolution. But there is his big nose sitting right on his face.
|
|
|
|
Post by TBeholder on Aug 4, 2015 5:05:34 GMT
Is there a specific reason Annie is getting the gruff, unemotional treatment? Inadequacy. You have heard the man. He made up unreasonable demands for himself, and wasn't going to cooperate with anyone. When he failed (as was expected by everyone else - even Surma just assumed it will go the usual way), he "proved to be a complete failure". Then he didn't know what to do, but dropped a sky castle worth of demands on his kid. And now that he found out that reality doesn't coincide with his imagination, he is "disappointed", but... doesn't seem to help with that. Let's look at his modus operandi as narrated by himself - is this a change? Should this be surprising?.. Maybe, she felt she needed to go through the process of making a child (like fire), and simply didn't want her friends to watch her decline. Maybe, she thought Tony would join Annie in the Court from the start. Hopefully, we'll see... in a month or so. Maybe she noticed that, whichever she have seen in Tony, having to deal with him is sanity-taxing even for adults and thought it's not a good idea to leave a kid with him. I wonder whether Annie's reluctance to seek help might come from her as well as from her father. Of course. And it worked for her exactly as "well" as for him (especially in Spring-Heeled). Bad habits - the first thing kids pick up.  did anyone raise an eyebrow curiously at ' Her child'? He referred to Surma's views. Probably in context of either connection to her or the peculiar physiology, at that. But yeah, speculations ahoy. |
|
|
|
Post by Draxiss on Aug 4, 2015 6:16:10 GMT
After all the heated debates in here recently, let me say: I fully trust that Tom will be able to make him more sympathetic while making sure that there are actual consequences for the less savory parts of his behavior. I could not have put it more concisely. Seriously, I'm bad at being concise. |
|
|
|
Post by SilverbackRon on Aug 4, 2015 6:52:17 GMT
It seems like he's blaming himself for Surma's death. I'm wondering if he really does blame Annie, he might just be wallowing in self pity. It will be interesting to find out what convinced him to return, but it looks as if he mask is back on. Might not get anymore this chapter. I think that whatever went on with James is the reason he learned martial arts. agree with the first part. But martial arts vs James? Eglamore is the Court Protector/DragonSlayer. Martial arts skills wouldn't make any difference. |
|
|
|
Post by bluevitriol on Aug 4, 2015 8:05:02 GMT
I don't mean to start anything, and I mean nothing malicious against Anthony at the moment (In fact, I am actually quite sympathetic), but did anyone raise an eyebrow curiously at ' Her child'? At most, I think it's just him trying to keep an emotional distance, but it did rather catch my attention. To justcurious: What that family relationship was like has never really been explained. Tony is a friend to the group, what if Surma and James got hot n heavy and it went to far and James is actually Annies Father and doesn't even know it, and Tony has covered up for his friends this whole time. That would explain the emotionless, non-connection, to Annie. If Tony is keeping up this lie; and it would be a HUGE lie, he definitely needed that drink! |
|
|
|
Post by justcurious on Aug 4, 2015 8:27:19 GMT
A speculation which is probably wrong, could the dispute between Tony and Jimmy have been to do with Surma's enticement of Renard and the deaths which were its consequences? Could this have been behind the breakup of Surma and Jimmy?
|
|
|
|
Post by rainofsteel on Aug 4, 2015 8:58:04 GMT
By itself, that discussion only confused things.
Must develop time machine. Must check the rest of the story.
|
|
|
|
Post by speedwell on Aug 4, 2015 9:40:42 GMT
Speculations:
- Suppose Surma fought Anthony about the pregnancy. He might have been horrified and wanted to terminate it. She might have literally faced him down, insisting that it was HER pregnancy and HER child, and forced him to accept it, on the condition that he be allowed to see if, as a medical professional, he could find a workaround. In that case Anthony's referring to Antimony as "her" child might just be an echo of Surma's fierceness.
- Suppose the issue with James was that he wasn't privy to the sensitive negotiations between husband and wife, retained some lingering protectiveness toward Surma, interpreted everything disastrously the wrong way, and confronted Anthony in a tremendous emotional outburst. Anthony would be expected to distance himself from the whole traumatic incident by referring to it disdainfully as "that business". It needn't have been a scandal, just a huge misunderstanding.
- Is the "aura" around pregnant Surma on this page a hint at her fire elemental nature?
|
|
|
|
Post by speedwell on Aug 4, 2015 9:45:05 GMT
A speculation which is probably wrong, could the dispute between Tony and Jimmy have been to do with Surma's enticement of Renard and the deaths which were its consequences? Could this have been behind the breakup of Surma and Jimmy? I think it is entirely possible that Surma was one of those independent women who won't let her man "tell her what to do". James wouldn't have stood for that. Anthony would have backed down. Notice Anthony's whole affect is of someone barely holding himself together lest any challenge shatter him. |
|
|
|
Post by philman on Aug 4, 2015 10:50:51 GMT
A speculation which is probably wrong, could the dispute between Tony and Jimmy have been to do with Surma's enticement of Renard and the deaths which were its consequences? Could this have been behind the breakup of Surma and Jimmy? I think it is entirely possible that Surma was one of those independent women who won't let her man "tell her what to do". James wouldn't have stood for that. Anthony would have backed down. Notice Anthony's whole affect is of someone barely holding himself together lest any challenge shatter him. I think all the women in this comic are fairly independent, not entirely clear on your insinuation behind Jimmy not standing for Surma not listening to him but not sure I like it. We've all been wondering what happened with Surma, James and Anthony. It is possible that the incident with Renard changed things. Because of her actions a dangerous Forest creature was let loose in the Court. We know one student died and don't know how much damage occurred subdueing Renard. Surma was also at risk. This comment made me think of the way the Surma/Tony/James/Renard story mirrors the Jeane/Diego/forest Guy triangle. Surma was involved in the trapping of Renard inside the court, which involves the death of Daniel, another court employee/student, in the same way that the trapping of Jeanne required the death of Forest Guy. Diego was the one who lusted after Jeanne, in the same way that Tony was in love with Surma. Diego dealt with the lack of reciprocation by instigating a plan which led to the death of her lover eternal entrapment of Jeanne in the Annan waters, whereas Surma was split from her lover James by his involvement in the plan to trap her friend Renard which led to the death of one of her colleagues. In Surma's case, she ended up with the man who loved her from afar, whereas obviously in Jeanne's case she did not. In both cases, Jeanne and Surma, they died while Diego and Tony did (or could do) nothing. and the rest of both Diego and Tony's lives were filled with regret for what they did, or could not do. |
|
|
|
Post by aline on Aug 4, 2015 11:02:35 GMT
Tony is a friend to the group, what if Surma and James got hot n heavy and it went to far and James is actually Annies Father and doesn't even know it, and Tony has covered up for his friends this whole time. That would explain the emotionless, non-connection, to Annie. If Tony is keeping up this lie; and it would be a HUGE lie, he definitely needed that drink! Tom said before that Annie is Tony and Surma's daughter. No need to speculate here. Some information Tom has dropped here and there: Tony isn't one for showing a lot of emotion. Tony and Surma left before Surma got pregnant. Both Tony and Surma knew what would happen if Surma had a child. Annie is the child of Tony and Surma. Annie was no accident. Surma could have postponed having a child in order to live longer. Surma never regretted having Annie. Thanks for the recap. Some other answers I digged from Chrysoprax: |
|
|
|
Post by speedwell on Aug 4, 2015 11:52:17 GMT
I think it is entirely possible that Surma was one of those independent women who won't let her man "tell her what to do". James wouldn't have stood for that. Anthony would have backed down. Notice Anthony's whole affect is of someone barely holding himself together lest any challenge shatter him. I think all the women in this comic are fairly independent, not entirely clear on your insinuation behind Jimmy not standing for Surma not listening to him but not sure I like it. Well, it's not as though I like it, to be sure. But for the less experienced among us, I'll explain. James is an emotional and sentimental man and responds best, from childhood, to the calm nurturing of Jones. He shows and acts on his emotions; but fortunately he is a good man and his impulses and decisions are good ones. Surma was not just independent, she was a loose cannon. Her actions as presented in the story so far show an immature disregard for the feelings of others (with the exception, as far as we can tell, of Antimony). I've seen that dynamic play out in real life with friends, and end in the headstrong, defiant young woman concluding that the justified anger of her partner at her poor decisions is "control" and leaving him over it. Her next partner was a checked-out stoner who let her do whatever she pleased, and as far as I know that relationship lasted at least six years. Anthony is and was not a checked-out stoner by any means, but the Surma who could lead the reasonably aware Reynardine a merry dance is certainly a Surma that could manipulate Anthony into a state of terminal confusion. When I say James "wouldn't stand for that", I mean he is too grounded and practical to allow himself to be bear-led by a partner who might have been testing the boundaries to see what she can get away with. |
|
|
|
Post by laylajune on Aug 4, 2015 15:38:13 GMT
So... Any chance that, in a technicality, James provided artificial insemination material for Annie? I'm guessing not... Was wondering if some way could be worked out that Annie was Tony's child while still having a connection to James.
|
|
