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Post by rafk on Aug 3, 2015 8:38:22 GMT
All just building to the "why send Annie to the Court, never communicate, then return unannounced and treat her like crap?" question.
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Post by philman on Aug 3, 2015 8:55:04 GMT
All just building to the "why send Annie to the Court, never communicate, then return unannounced and treat her like crap?" question. The million dollar question. Everything else can be explained away, the work, the leaving the court, even the lack of contact for 2+ years, but the coldness after the sudden reappearance with his daughter may be explainable, but I doubt it can be successfully justified. |
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Bill
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Post by Bill on Aug 3, 2015 8:58:14 GMT
I don't mean to start anything, and I mean nothing malicious against Anthony at the moment (In fact, I am actually quite sympathetic), but did anyone raise an eyebrow curiously at ' Her child'? At most, I think it's just him trying to keep an emotional distance, but it did rather catch my attention. To justcurious: What that family relationship was like has never really been explained. It is also possible that he means that Surma decided not to have her child in the Court before she was with Anthony, and so he did not factor into the decision. That is, her child, regardless of who the father might be. As mentioned, other possibilities include Tony not really considering Annie to be his child. And there may be still other reasons. |
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Post by sherni on Aug 3, 2015 9:57:24 GMT
I'm guessing, but when Anthony describes the Court as 'this place', it sounds like Surma wasn't a big fan of it either. She didn't want Annie to be born there, but... it was her wish that she be sent there to study? Once again guessing, but maybe she thought that Annie might be more vulnerable to the Court as an infant and small child? Perhaps she was afraid that they might conduct tests on Annie, maybe separate her from her mother? Perhaps they might have taken Annie anyway, after Surma had passed on, and Surma sending her daughter there was simply an attempt to avoid any unnecessary conflict. But that doesn't explain why she didn't prepare her daughter at all. Surma also comes across as pretty self-centred here. She clearly cares about Anja, and her intentions might have been good- not wanting Anja to see her suffer- but she gave her friend no choice in the matter. And obviously her proud streak came into it too. And in doing this, she also likely forced Anthony to break off his own friendship with Donald.
For this, I feel really sorry for Anthony. it still doesn't justify or explain why he's treating Annie the way he is. And if he never wanted to return... then does that mean he never wanted to see Annie again either?
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Garbage
New Member
ANTHONY CARVER DEFENSE FORCE, 1ST LIEUTENANT OF THE SUPPORT DIVISION
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Post by Garbage on Aug 3, 2015 10:17:52 GMT
I'm taking this as the moment of 'TONY ISN'T ENTIRELY AN AWFUL HUMAN BEING' becoming true that I've been waiting for.
YYYEEESSS
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Post by fish on Aug 3, 2015 10:50:44 GMT
I should have prepared myself emotionally for this 'Story Time'; I've been waiting for this for six years now.
All this talk of Omega Devices lulled me into a false sense of "this is going to be dry exposition". Please excuse me while I go tend to my slowly breaking heart.
Also: Donny's glasses are as emotive as always; and Tony is quite the ventriloquist on this page.
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Post by aline on Aug 3, 2015 11:29:59 GMT
Tony failed in letting Surma die. He. failed. We've seen how hard Annie takes failure, and what Annie takes hard, Tony takes even harder. How on earth was he supposed to face his friends with the knowledge of that failure, let alone his daughter?? How could he face them??? Now, there may be more complexity to it than this. However, I personally can relate to how utterly crippling self-loathing can be. I can totally see how it might cause Tony to lose focus on his daughter - first, while being increasingly absorbed in fighting a losing battle for Surma's life, and though guilt for years after the battle was lost. Plenty of people lose a spouse without losing a sense of decency in the process. Tony's problem first and foremost is his ego (I'm the only person in existence who had to suffer). Agree. I think Annie is about to find out that her father isn't this almighty man in her mind, but a person with weaknesses who made some good things and some bad things and took some pretty stupid decisions at times. She might even realize that she inherited a lot of her own failings from her dad. Maybe then, being angry at him will no longer seem so intolerable. |
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Post by pxc on Aug 3, 2015 11:39:50 GMT
The case against Surma gets stronger. Anthony wasn't/isn't the only poor parent here. It appears he was at best marginally capable even with Surma's guidance, and after she died he lost all sense of direction in parenting. That doesn't excuse him, but it does explain some. And shifts some blame to Surma.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 3, 2015 11:51:31 GMT
It has been fairly clear for a while that Surma wanted nothing more to do with the Court after the Reynard affair. It wasn't hard to imagine that she also didn't want to have her child in the Court either.
- Maybe Surma didn't know that Tony was still working for the Court while they were at Good Hope. Maybe the Court preferred to have Tony convince Surma to return to the Court with her child and the Court just accepted that Tony's research at Good Hope as an acceptable compromise.
- Annie thinks Surma sent her to the Court, but maybe that is not really true. Maybe Tony sent Annie to the Court while telling Annie that it was her mother's idea. Tony didn't care for the Court, but he probably knew he couldn't raise Annie on his own and the Court was the least bad option available.
Also note that Surma didn't go to the Forest to have her child. It appears that she didn't want to be involved in either side of the Court/Forest conflict and she didn't want Annie raised in the Forest either.
- It is not a hard leap to imagine that Surma started thinking her Fire Elemental nature was more of a curse than a blessing. Maybe excising the Fire Elemental was completely Surma's idea and Tony was, and still is, just trying to comply with her wishes (while sabotaging the Court's efforts to exploit the Fire Elemental).
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Post by aline on Aug 3, 2015 11:53:05 GMT
The case against Surma gets stronger. Anthony wasn't/isn't the only poor parent here. It appears he was at best marginally capable even with Surma's guidance, and after she died he lost all sense of direction in parenting. That doesn't excuse him, but it does explain some. And shifts some blame to Surma. I dunno. Surma was certainly at fault with Anja (no way to treat your best friend my dear) and some others (Renard...), but we don't know that she was a poor parent or was responsible for Anthony's poor parenting. We just know she wanted Annie to be born away from the Court. Was she really the one who wanted her daughter to be educated there and why?... maybe we'll learn that on wednesday.
I'm also very curious to know what "this business with James" is all about, but since Donald already knows, we won't learn it this time :-(
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 3, 2015 12:03:04 GMT
I'm also very curious to know what "this business with James" is all about, but since Donald already knows, we won't learn it this time :-( Sometimes a break-up is just a break-up. Tony doesn't understand his own emotions much less anyone else's, so it makes sense that he would refer to Surma's break-up with James as "business". |
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Post by aline on Aug 3, 2015 12:15:26 GMT
I'm also very curious to know what "this business with James" is all about, but since Donald already knows, we won't learn it this time :-( Sometimes a break-up is just a break-up. Tony doesn't understand his own emotions much less anyone else's, so it makes sense that he would refer to Surma's break-up with James as "business". Are you sure he's talking about the break-up? When they left the Court, Surma was already pregnant. It must have been some time after the end of her relationship with James. Besides, Tony is citing it as a reason for *him* to want to leave the place. Why would he be bothered about his wife's break-up if she wasn't? I think this "business" thing was between Tony and James, not between Surma and James. We already know Jimmy Jims was never a fan of Tony, even when he wasn't yet married to the girl he loves...
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Post by alexsl on Aug 3, 2015 12:38:20 GMT
I am surprised at "she didn't want her child born in this place". Her trickery of Renard made her come across as an agent of GC, clearly on their side of the divide as opposed to a neutral medium, and now it is made to sound as if she didn't like the place anyway. Huh.
"Her child" does not have to indicate any detachment on his part in this case. Simply SHE did not want HER CHILD to be born in this place - her veto power as the mother, nothing more.
Still awaiting the following part of the conversation:
"I have come back to take up a teaching job because I lost my hand while trying to operate the magic out of my daughter without asking for her consent." (Cue fire sirens and screams of terror in the distance.)
I wonder, by the way, if Zimmy well ever realise how much damage she caused in Divine, and if she would show any remorse.
Alternatively:
"Why I treat my daugher so badly? Every time I look at her it reminds me that she killed my wife, this is the best I can do." (Cue Annie nervous breakdown.)
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Post by sapientcoffee on Aug 3, 2015 12:40:59 GMT
I think this "business" thing was between Tony and James, not between Surma and James. We already know Jimmy Jims was never a fan of Tony, even when he wasn't yet married to the girl he loves... And worse than married, got her pregnant. No surprise Jimmy Jims and Reynard loath him so. I am surprised at "she didn't want her child born in this place". Her trickery of Renard made her come across as an agent of GC, clearly on their side of the divide as opposed to a neutral medium, and now it is made to sound as if she didn't like the place anyway. Huh. The consequences of that trickery could'a been the catalyst for her wanting to leave. Also, that 2nd panel 3/4 profile...daaaaang. Tom gots skills. |
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Post by hnau on Aug 3, 2015 13:29:56 GMT
Maternal instinct. She wanted to give birth and to raise her child in a safe place.
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Post by pxc on Aug 3, 2015 13:45:36 GMT
The case against Surma gets stronger. Anthony wasn't/isn't the only poor parent here. It appears he was at best marginally capable even with Surma's guidance, and after she died he lost all sense of direction in parenting. That doesn't excuse him, but it does explain some. And shifts some blame to Surma. I dunno. Surma was certainly at fault with Anja (no way to treat your best friend my dear) and some others (Renard...), but we don't know that she was a poor parent or was responsible for Anthony's poor parenting. We just know she wanted Annie to be born away from the Court. Was she really the one who wanted her daughter to be educated there and why?... maybe we'll learn that on wednesday.
I'm also very curious to know what "this business with James" is all about, but since Donald already knows, we won't learn it this time :-(
Strikes against her, off the top of my head: - Tricked Renard to capture him - Left her best friend without warning, and presumably forced Tony to leave his the same way, because she was too proud let them watch her get sick and die - Became pregnant with full knowledge of what that meant, with a man she had to know was not going to be a fit parent on his own - Chose not to prepare her daughter for her own certain death, how to deal with the fire elemental side, etc. - Encouraged her to learn from Muut and the others with, knowing her daughter would lead her into the ether with her last memory of her mother being that she'd forget who Antimony was There may be reasons for some or all these things, but the results are what they are and if she wasn't able to see them as possibilities, then that would be another strike against her. She was present and loving, or at least appeared to be from what we've seen. But overall Annie had/has a couple of shitty parents more concerned for themselves than for her. |
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Post by gunnerwf on Aug 3, 2015 15:03:09 GMT
I have a feeling he's going to say something insulting about his daughter very soon.
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Post by aline on Aug 3, 2015 15:04:07 GMT
- Tricked Renard to capture him - Left her best friend without warning, and presumably forced Tony to leave his the same way, because she was too proud let them watch her get sick and die Both bad choices, but it has nothing to do with Annie whatsoever. - Became pregnant with full knowledge of what that meant, with a man she had to know was not going to be a fit parent on his own Most people have no idea what kind of parent they're themselves going to be before the kid is there. Blaming Surma because she should have predicted what kind of realtionship Tony would have with their child before even getting pregnant is frankly overdoing it. We don't know much about their relationship yet, but it was obviously a loving one. Why would she think he couldn't love Annie too? Besides, he chose to be a father just like she chose to be a mother. He carries the responsibility for being a shitty father, not her. - Chose not to prepare her daughter for her own certain death, how to deal with the fire elemental side, etc. We don't know if the other way around would have been really better for Annie. Tom said on one occasion that Surma herself always knew what she was and how she'd die. If she acted differently with her daughter, she can't have felt that comfortable with so much early knowledge. Maybe she hoped that Tony would find a solution to the problem before it became necessary to brush the subject. We don't know if she knew it would happen this way. The reason Annie met Muut this early was because of growing up in a hospital. We have no idea when Surma met them and if she was ever confronted with the same situation when her own mother died. So far we have questions, but no reason to shift much blame from Anthony to Surma. |
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
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Post by Anthony on Aug 3, 2015 15:35:07 GMT
Tony may be just saying he felt uncomfortable around James. He stole Eglamore's girlfriend after all, and James wasn't happy. |
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Post by nero on Aug 3, 2015 15:39:30 GMT
Anja never got to say goodbye to her friend Surma.
I guess we'll hear about the hand accident or any updates on the omega device.
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Post by KMar on Aug 3, 2015 15:42:03 GMT
I don't mean to start anything, and I mean nothing malicious against Anthony at the moment (In fact, I am actually quite sympathetic), but did anyone raise an eyebrow curiously at ' Her child'? At most, I think it's just him trying to keep an emotional distance, but it did rather catch my attention. To justcurious: What that family relationship was like has never really been explained. It is also possible that he means that Surma decided not to have her child in the Court before she was with Anthony, and so he did not factor into the decision. That is, her child, regardless of who the father might be. As mentioned, other possibilities include Tony not really considering Annie to be his child. And there may be still other reasons. Yes, I think you're all extrapolating too wildly from that line. Surma was steadfast that her child was not to be born in the Court. I suspect Anthony might be quoting her almost literally. And isn't that quite common way of speech when referring to mothers and their decisions / hopes / stuff concerning their child? |
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Post by Per on Aug 3, 2015 15:56:09 GMT
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Post by Trillium on Aug 3, 2015 16:03:29 GMT
Tony may be just saying he felt uncomfortable around James. He stole Eglamore's girlfriend after all, and James wasn't happy. We've all been wondering what happened with Surma, James and Anthony. It is possible that the incident with Renard changed things. Because of her actions a dangerous Forest creature was let loose in the Court. We know one student died and don't know how much damage occurred subdueing Renard. Surma was also at risk. James might have been very angry with Surma causing a breach. Tony might have stepped in taking Surma's side. This might have also split the old gang and they might have graduated before reaching a reconciliation. Tom is literally giving us face time with Anthony. I like how Tony's face is in such sharp focus as he is giving us background details. It is very personal background. |
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Post by deuswyvern on Aug 3, 2015 17:05:05 GMT
Is it possible that there are just negative side effects to having a child born on court grounds?
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 3, 2015 17:24:50 GMT
Well this is more or less what I expected since he showed up. Anthony is a sympathetic and understandable character...in a manner that in no way justifies how he's been treating Annie. I do feel bad for him, though. I always have, really, even though it's been eclipsed underneath my anger stemming from his mistreatment of his daughter. He's very human, and flawed and twisted up into knots from anger and grief, and possibly even blaming his daughter for something she never did – but not just some one-dimensional force of evil. But regardless of whether his intentions are understandable or not, we still don't know what they are. So there is another shoe waiting to drop...which probably won't appear for another several hundred pages. And, reiterating, regardless of how much I sympathize with Tony, he still has no justification for his behavior towards his daughter.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 3, 2015 17:53:35 GMT
Is it possible that there are just negative side effects to having a child born on court grounds? The Court is a place that is closer to the ether than the average spot on the planet so an infant's chance of developing PPS (Primary Protagonist Syndrome) may indeed increase. |
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Post by hp on Aug 3, 2015 18:42:38 GMT
A tri-weekly webcomic surely leaves a lot of time to overthinking the limited data we have, but I think you guys are being too quick to judge.
Anthony's behavior is definitely looking despicable at the surface, but I doubt he's gonna be built as some kid of self-centered villain who hates his daughter because his wife died. Surma didn't seem like the kind of woman who would fall for an egotistical piece of shit capable of that. Donald and Anja wouldn't be friends with a bastard of that kind. The only one who seemed to have a problem with him was Eglamore, and I don't think Anthony was some kind of genius psychopath who managed to hide from everyone his jerkass side — their beef, IIRC, was due to rivalry for Surma's interest.
I don't think he's ever gonna be fully redeemed as a perfect altruistic "victim of circumstances", but I'm willing to bet he cares for Annie and his "abandonment" and poor treatment of her is due to concrete and relevant REASONS other than not wanting to be around her or thinking of his daughter as some kind of research project. Probably something related to her safety, being close to the woods or something.
In comparison... We have seen hints of a hidden agenda and a darker side of Coyote, despite the amicable front. I'm convinced Tom would not suddenly start to create unidimensional characters. Some people think of that as "pulling a Snape", like it would be unoriginal to show Anthony has "feels". But for me that sounds more interesting than "pulling a Gendo Ikari"
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Post by hp on Aug 3, 2015 18:50:17 GMT
Maybe personal attachments make Annie's "fire elemental life force" burn faster or something. That's why Anthony made sure she was away from Reynard, Kat and all her friends and tries so hard to make her hate him.
Whatever the reason... Since this chapter seems to be a flashback supposed to explain why Annie never reacted to his abuse, I imagine (judging from Annie's forgiving stance and her taking the side of her father against even Kat) that she´ll hear some pretty solid reasons
"James business"... wild speculation, but maybe Annie is Eglamore's child and James wanted Surma to have an abortion so she would not die. So she left him for Anthony because he was suportive and proposed to try to save both Surma and Annie
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Post by Goatmon on Aug 3, 2015 19:05:17 GMT
I don't mean to start anything, and I mean nothing malicious against Anthony at the moment (In fact, I am actually quite sympathetic), but did anyone raise an eyebrow curiously at ' Her child'? At most, I think it's just him trying to keep an emotional distance, but it did rather catch my attention. To justcurious: What that family relationship was like has never really been explained. It is also possible that he means that Surma decided not to have her child in the Court before she was with Anthony, and so he did not factor into the decision. That is, her child, regardless of who the father might be. As mentioned, other possibilities include Tony not really considering Annie to be his child. And there may be still other reasons. The last couple pages absolutely explains his coldness. |
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Aug 3, 2015 19:18:09 GMT
Well, if you'd asked me yesterday which parent I thought had instigated the Carvers' isolated life at Good Hope, I'd have told you Anthony, if only because it fit nicely into the idea of him creating the perfect environment in which to study the transference of Surma's fire into Annie.
I ADMIT I WAS WRONG and I'm glad for it. I mean, he was still studying that, but isolating both subjects from a social life had no part of it. This is an interesting rounding out of both characters. I think someone mentioned a while back that there's a tendency for the readership to lionize Surma in regards to her parenting of Annie (in regards to her love life... not so much), and I think a lot of that is because she's 1) dead, 2) shown to us mainly through Annie's rose-colored glasses.
I'd always wondered at the contrast between Renard and James's (and my own) narrative of the Tony/Surma relationship -- that Anthony was dominating poor, obedient Surma -- and the proud, firey, out-spoken, and occasionally manipulative person Surma really was. I say, it fits better that Surma was the one calling the shots in this case, and that Anthony respected her wishes while regularly reminding her that other possibilities remained.
And we get another glimmer of why Antimony has such a hard time looking weak in front of others. Neither parent could/can stand to be seen as vulnerable.
For the "her daughter" line... I do see it as an effort to maintain distance with Annie on Tony's part, but I also think it just highlights how much he left this decision to Surma and what little say he felt he had in it. (It could ALSO hint that Tony felt like he had no say in how Antimony was brought up at all, though maybe that's a weird leap.)
"I never wanted to return." So, you'd have stayed out-of-contact with your daughter as long as she was in the Court? And would you have reached out to her once she was out? Or was avoiding Antimony a big part of you never wanting to come back? Clearly if Anthony respected Surma's wish to break contact with all their friends, I can see why he'd respect her posthumous request for Antimony to receive schooling at the Court despite his dislike of the place. Not that I approve the decision.
It seems like this is leaning closer to Anthony's return being something he was ordered to do. I wonder how Annie is taking this.
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