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Post by Nnelg on Jul 30, 2015 1:58:59 GMT
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 30, 2015 2:12:22 GMT
he doesn't seem to catch that Donny's not sharing his mood. Why would he think it's something unusual? One astute observation, though: .  Gosh, if only somebody were working on artificial muscles, say, and the circuitry necessary to control them. It would be useful to get on the right side of such a person... Yup. This guy has a true gift. And here Annie was thinking she has a talent in this area... Remove the pudding! In fact if we want to read into it, perhaps we ought to focus on why he's not trying to replace his hand with whatever crazytech the court can cook up now he's here. The theorized absence of the tech? A lack of trust in it? The court refusing to grant it to him? God forbid he's wearing his guilt or something? Between this page and his way to contact Donald, my bet is #2 + #2 + #4. I added #2 twice because there's also possibility to get the hand controlled by a copy of Boxbot. That said, I have a theory I came up with for a story I'm writing, that might apply here: Tony is behaving toward Annie the way he wishes his own father had behaved toward him, not realizing that he is repeating the same mistake his father made - giving his child what he needed as a child, rather than what she needs. So his behavior isn't out of any kind of malice, but stems from a genuine desire to be helpful. Yes. This nicely aligns with my theory that Anthony's father was Boxbot. |
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Post by calpal on Jul 30, 2015 4:07:28 GMT
Holy Christ on a Kaiser, Tony is SMILING?!
It makes sense that younger Tony and Donny got along so well and that they can share their feelings more openly than Tony and literally anyone else, but to actually see a smile - not just any old smile, but a beaming smile, no less! Wow, this is gonna be the loop-de-loop on the roller coaster ride that is the Tony plot.
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Post by deuswyvern on Jul 30, 2015 5:04:04 GMT
From what I've seen it looks like Tony always takes the most cowardly social option available. He basically just runs away whenever he doesn't know what to do. In that light I think its fair to say that it was most likely Donny who was most responsible for their friendship. It's not really a matter of Tony being willing to take the time to socialize with Donny and not Annie.
I can't really tell if he treats Annie any different than anyone else. Reynard said that Tony had never felt an emotion other than disdain, so what looks like particular resentment might just be how he treats everyone except those who put in the work required to befriend him.
I'm interested in what Tony says next, but honestly, I don't think it will be that revealing. I don't trust him to be honest with Donny, or even to have enough self awareness to know what he actually cares about.
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Post by csj on Jul 30, 2015 5:58:47 GMT
There's quite a bit more than fingers missing from that hand.. I like how etheric missiles are totally a thing, while limb replacement robotics is a no-go. I for one would love to have a golem hand. Oh, I bet Kat could totally do that. But good luck convincing her! "Hey, Donny; reckon your daughter could give me a hand?" She'd give him a piece of her mind to go with it. |
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Post by hnau on Jul 30, 2015 6:42:54 GMT
The notable exception to this trend is his first, abrupt denouncement of her makeup. While that was rude-bordering-on-abusive, and definitely the worst thing to say on the first time you see your daughter again, it's also relatively understandable considering that it may remind him of his lost wife. If we embrace the hypothesis that he blames Annie for his wife's death (because, you know, she is technically responsible), it also explains some of his coldness towards her. After all, he tried (poorly) to complement Kat - so his coldness appears to be mostly focussed towards Annie. It's enough that Annie reminds him of his lost wife, even if he does not blame her. He might not be able to deal with the deep emotions connected to her death. Annie might even remind him that HE is responsible, by fathering a child and then being unable to safe his wife. |
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Post by justcurious on Jul 30, 2015 12:37:58 GMT
One thing we will find out soon is whether he sought to come back or whether the school invited him to come back. I'm guessing he was invited back to wreck Annie's effectiveness as the Forest medium. He accepted because that suited his plans for her, basically turning her into someone like himself.
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Post by youwiththeface on Jul 30, 2015 12:40:38 GMT
The notable exception to this trend is his first, abrupt denouncement of her makeup. While that was rude-bordering-on-abusive, and definitely the worst thing to say on the first time you see your daughter again, it's also relatively understandable considering that it may remind him of his lost wife. If we embrace the hypothesis that he blames Annie for his wife's death (because, you know, she is technically responsible), it also explains some of his coldness towards her. After all, he tried (poorly) to complement Kat - so his coldness appears to be mostly focussed towards Annie. It's enough that Annie reminds him of his lost wife, even if he does not blame her. He might not be able to deal with the deep emotions connected to her death. Annie might even remind him that HE is responsible, by fathering a child and then being unable to safe his wife. That's his problem, and not something he should've taken out on Annie. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 30, 2015 13:30:21 GMT
It's enough that Annie reminds him of his lost wife, even if he does not blame her. He might not be able to deal with the deep emotions connected to her death. Annie might even remind him that HE is responsible, by fathering a child and then being unable to safe his wife. That's his problem, and not something he should've taken out on Annie. Oh, I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that haha. |
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Post by pendell on Jul 30, 2015 13:31:05 GMT
There may be another reason as well.
First of all, Tony IS , so far, a perfectly horrible father. Can we agree on that?
I'm glad to see that whiskey, seemingly, is the way to a man's heart and this is the first step to maybe helping him build a healthy relationship with his daughter. Constantly being yelled at by a teen isn't going to do it, however much Katharine's anger is deserved.
As I see it, there are at least three things in play when Tony is horrible to his daughter:
1) Tony IS socially maladjusted. He can be human to one or two other human beings in the entire world he trusts, and everyone else gets to see cold stone face. That circle includes his friend but does NOT include his friend's wife, daughter, or even his own.
2) The whole "blames his daughter for his wife's death" thing. As if she had any control over that, and as if she won't suffer the same fate when HER children are born. If anything, Tony holds more responsibility for his wife's death than Annie does. Annie had no control over what happened inside the womb, but Surya didn't get pregnant by an immaculate conception. If Tony knew this was the likely outcome and .. proceeded .. anyway, he will bear a degree of responsibility.
3) I have to wonder: There's a school of thought that says parents aren't supposed to be friends with their children, because their role is to raise the children. It's the same school of thought that says bosses should not befriend subordinates, because it conflicts with the role of boss, who must oversee and discipline subordinates if necessary.
Tony bears no responsibility whatsoever for Don's behavior, and so he is free to have a peer friendship with him. By contrast, he will NEVER be able to be friends with his daughter until she is of age and either A) independent or B) married and someone else's problem.
And even if he wanted to, any kind of show of intimacy or kindness is most certainly NOT going to happen until his daughter STOPS CHEATING IN SCHOOL. That is a PROBLEM, and it needs to STOP.
Many parents say they love their children unconditionally, but by their actions they show that their love, and approval, needs to be earned. Consciously or Unconsciously, Tony is offering continued association and relationship with him to Annie in exchange for her good behavior, and Annie is so desperate for his approval she is willing to do almost anything , sacrifice almost any relationship or dream, to achieve that.
Tony is not an amoral, conscienceless monster. He's a man who has seemingly dared much and risked much, and is a horrible father. He is, in other words, a human figure, not a 2D cardboard cutout.
I'm HOPING that Donnie can build a bridge between father and daughter -- that daughter can be a better student, and that Tony can learn to treat his daughter with a degree of intimacy and warmth. Even if you're from the school that says parenting requires a certain distance, there's still a DEGREE of kindness and familiarity due within a family that Annie needs and is notably absent.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Post by eyemyself on Jul 30, 2015 16:03:48 GMT
It's enough that Annie reminds him of his lost wife, even if he does not blame her. He might not be able to deal with the deep emotions connected to her death. Annie might even remind him that HE is responsible, by fathering a child and then being unable to safe his wife. That's his problem, and not something he should've taken out on Annie. I'm not sure Tony is self aware enough of that aspect of himself to realize he's taking it out on Annie, just like I'm not sure Annie is self aware enough to realize when she takes things out on her friends due to her own emotional state. (We've seen her do this with Rey, Kat, Mort, Jack, and others.) I tend to agree with the folks who've been drawing a strong parallel between Annie and her father. I think we are seeing in Tony some of the same flaws we've seen Annie struggle with during her time at the court. (Difficulty making social connections, fleeing from conflict, trouble showing emotion, trouble admitting to needing help, aloofness that comes across as a superiority complex but probably has more to do with social anxiety, etc...) However, the fact that the behavior is coming from a grown man instead of a preteen girl, and we have much less insight into Tony's thoughts and feelings than we do into Annie's, makes it easy to be harsher on Tony for his actions. That is not to excuse his behavior towards Annie. Both the act of abandoning her to a strange school directly after the death of her mother and the abuse he has heaped on her since his return are inexcusable... But these things don't make him evil - they just make him a really, truly shitty parent who is actively damaging his daughter because he hasn't ever outgrown the bad habits that made it difficult to form social connections as a kid and now he is completely unprepared to handle being sole guardian for a teen girl. |
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Post by scottjm on Jul 30, 2015 17:30:03 GMT
And even if he wanted to, any kind of show of intimacy or kindness is most certainly NOT going to happen until his daughter STOPS CHEATING IN SCHOOL. That is a PROBLEM, and it needs to STOP. Ya, that is the exact wrong position to take. If he wants her academic dishonesty to stop, he needs to F-ing grow a pair to identify and address what caused it in the first place. Her homeschooling before coming to the court is going to be part of the problem, which would be HIS mistake not Annie's. His abandonment is a huge part of the problem, seriously it has been PROVEN that kids with supportive parents do better academically than kids with absent parents. If nothing else Annie needed someone she could turn to about her problems without fear of reprisal, as the fear of being viewed and treated as inferior is a huge part of the cause of these things, since it prevents these children from seeking help when they need it, and Annie needed help and guidance. Why she was having trouble with the material needs to be addressed, not everyone thinks the same way, and sometimes people need to have things explained in a different way in order to understand it. Just shoving more work on Annie, which is all we have seen, and not offering any emotional support is just making her feel worse, re-enforcing her feelings of inadequacy/inferiority and only going to hurt her in the long run. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Jul 30, 2015 17:43:59 GMT
For some reason, Tony in this scene reminds me of the archetype of a soldier who has been away on campaign for a long time. He's on leave for a while, but knows he'll go back to the front soon. Something about this page is giving me a real WWI vibe.
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Post by pendell on Jul 30, 2015 20:26:42 GMT
And even if he wanted to, any kind of show of intimacy or kindness is most certainly NOT going to happen until his daughter STOPS CHEATING IN SCHOOL. That is a PROBLEM, and it needs to STOP. If he wants her academic dishonesty to stop, he needs to F-ing grow a pair to identify and address what caused it in the first place. Her homeschooling before coming to the court is going to be part of the problem, which would be HIS mistake not Annie's. His abandonment is a huge part of the problem, seriously it has been PROVEN that kids with supportive parents do better academically than kids with absent parents. If nothing else Annie needed someone she could turn to about her problems without fear of reprisal, as the fear of being viewed and treated as inferior is a huge part of the cause of these things, since it prevents these children from seeking help when they need it, and Annie needed help and guidance. Why she was having trouble with the material needs to be addressed, not everyone thinks the same way, and sometimes people need to have things explained in a different way in order to understand it. Just shoving more work on Annie, which is all we have seen, and not offering any emotional support is just making her feel worse, re-enforcing her feelings of inadequacy/inferiority and only going to hurt her in the long run. I read this, and I can't say I disagree with any of it. If Annie is a mess, that is at least in part due to the parenting she received. Or rather, lack thereof. If Anthony wants to correct that error, I'd be delighted but he's definitely off on the wrong foot. Respectfully, Brian P. |
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Post by todd on Jul 31, 2015 0:12:57 GMT
I'd argue that the real root of Surma's death was that original human and fire elemental couple all those generations ago, whose union set up an alarming cycle (we don't know how many generations ago, but I think we can safely assume that Surma wasn't the first person to die because of that cycle - that the same thing happened to her mother, and her grandmother, and so on). Though since we know far less about them than we do about Surma and Anthony, it's not as easy to hold them responsible (and - assuming that Anthony's looking for someone to blame for Surma's death - he probably knows little about them, and they're no longer around, anyway).
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Post by sapientcoffee on Jul 31, 2015 0:19:56 GMT
Am I really the only one who isn't surprised by this page? No. Am I really the only one who can't stand this figure of speech? Maybe I misunderstand, not a native speaker and so on, but it looks like you say the rest of us can't read. I admit it is not unlikely you are smarter than me, but do you really need to rub it in.  Since no one has replied yet... I agree it's an obnoxious figure of speech, but usually the person using it doesn't mean it as rude as it comes off. Additionally I see it getting made fun of all the time on Reddit, so the general public probably agrees with you to some extent. I think it gets made fun of because with what, ~7 billion people on this planet, it's unlikely you'll ever be "the only one who". The phrase itself isn't rude, but the sentence it's in can be. I like how etheric missiles are totally a thing, while limb replacement robotics is a no-go. I for one would love to have a golem hand. In real life we have even more advanced prosthetics than that, actually it seems kind of primitive compared to ones I've seen. He appears to have been a place where the medicine wasn't the highest quality, is my guess(not the court). real life prostheticAnd that was from 2012! So awesome. |
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Jul 31, 2015 6:44:16 GMT
Re prostetics. Apart from the high end (expenssive) prosthetics there are various organisations that create awesome 3D printed arms and hands for people who need them and cannot afford or lack access to them. Organisations like enablingthefuture.org/ If anyone has a 3D printer and wants to contribute most the designs are free online. <3 |
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Blitz
New Member
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Post by Blitz on Jul 31, 2015 13:03:18 GMT
Pardon me for going off topic, but what does "Remove the pudding!" mean? |
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Post by antiyonder on Jul 31, 2015 18:14:05 GMT
Don understands that with someone like Tony, it's not a matter of "forcing the issue". It's a matter of finding out what Tony's trying to do and why, what Tony thinks is going on. And that is very likely to NOT be, "Why are you being so mean to your daughter?" Tony's seeing something else entirely, and until Don (and Annie, and we) understand what that is, nothing Tony does will make any sense. And I'm suspicious that what Don is about to show us is that while Tony's methods may suck, he's actually doing something that needs to be done. More, it may well be that what he's doing is pretty much the only way it can be done. Or maybe not. Maybe he's being driven by anger at Annie or even Surma, or by a clumsy, mechanical understand of how to raise girls, or by a misguided, vivisectionist curiosity. We don't know, and until we do, it's foolish, even dangerous to interfere. I don't know. Forgetting about whether the story is going into abuse or not, one thing that I find tedious in both real life and fiction is "good intentions" being used as a get out of jail free card. I mean how often does someone actually have to play that card if they are genuinely in the right? |
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Post by Refugee on Jul 31, 2015 19:17:24 GMT
Don understands that with someone like Tony, it's not a matter of "forcing the issue". It's a matter of finding out what Tony's trying to do and why, what Tony thinks is going on. And that is very likely to NOT be, "Why are you being so mean to your daughter?" Tony's seeing something else entirely, and until Don (and Annie, and we) understand what that is, nothing Tony does will make any sense. And I'm suspicious that what Don is about to show us is that while Tony's methods may suck, he's actually doing something that needs to be done. More, it may well be that what he's doing is pretty much the only way it can be done. Or maybe not. Maybe he's being driven by anger at Annie or even Surma, or by a clumsy, mechanical understand of how to raise girls, or by a misguided, vivisectionist curiosity. We don't know, and until we do, it's foolish, even dangerous to interfere. I don't know. Forgetting about whether the story is going into abuse or not, one thing that I find tedious in both real life and fiction is "good intentions" being used as a get out of jail free card. I mean how often does someone actually have to play that card if they are genuinely in the right? I'm not proposing "get out of jail free". I'm proposing, as I have all along, that we find out what the heck is going on. |
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Post by antiyonder on Jul 31, 2015 19:26:49 GMT
I'm not proposing "get out of jail free". I'm proposing, as I have all along, that we find out what the heck is going on. Honestly, I'm expecting it to be something along the lines of him trying to help Annie. I mean otherwise, what's the point of taking so long for his reasoning to be revealed. It's just that even if the comic is aiming for him to be acting to save Annie from the same fate as her mom, does his methods have to be a necessary evil that has to be done? Afterall, he was willing to have a child thinking that he could save Surma from dying shortly after. |
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Post by Refugee on Jul 31, 2015 20:01:49 GMT
[quote source="/post/122190/thread" timestamp="1438370244" It's just that even if the comic is aiming for him to be acting to save Annie from the same fate as her mom, does his methods have to be a necessary evil that has to be done? Afterall, he was willing to have a child thinking that he could save Surma from dying shortly after. Beats the heck out of me. I'm just gonna wait and see. One of the other aspects of the current scene is that Annie herself will get to make a judgment, something I'm more interested in than my own. I've objected all along that other people, including Kat, were judging Annie's Father, and even proposing to take action against him, without listening to Annie, or even acknowledging Annie's own very real transgression. Donald gets a lot of credit from me simply for withholding judgment until he has all the facts--and his inclusion of Annie in this escapade shows profound respect for her as well as for his friend Tony. |
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Post by antiyonder on Jul 31, 2015 20:13:09 GMT
One of the other aspects of the current scene is that Annie herself will get to make a judgment, something I'm more interested in than my own. Except, for pretty much the entire story, she already passed judgement on him in that she believes him to be a loving father and good man. And if judgement should be withheld until the facts are out, the same should be held true for positive judgement. I just think that people who view him as St. Paul should be given the lecture as well. Not just those who roast him. Heck, up until the recent strips, many of those choosing to view Tony in a better light tended to justify their stance by stating that his distant behavior is him being unable to express emotions at all. |
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Post by Refugee on Jul 31, 2015 21:48:06 GMT
One of the other aspects of the current scene is that Annie herself will get to make a judgment, something I'm more interested in than my own. Except, for pretty much the entire story, she already passed judgement on him in that she believes him to be a loving father and good man. He's her Father, so she knows a very great deal more about him than anybody else, with the possible exception of Donald. (And Surma, of course, but she's gone now.) And it is not surprising or bad for a child to love her father by default, and to require extraordinary evidence to shake that faith. Evidence which, it is true, Donald may well be about to show her. For the rest of us, I have only and always called for patience and evidence. And for acknowledgement that at least some of what Anthony has done to Annie is justified by her cheating. I think that Annie herself is not going to accept any judgment against her Father from anyone who does not recognize her faults. Otherwise, it's pure partisanship. |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 31, 2015 23:40:09 GMT
Pardon me for going off topic, but what does "Remove the pudding!" mean? The thread was about to be sunk into dank offtopic anyway. It's from "Through the Looking Glass". Pudding — Alice: Alice — Pudding. Remove the pudding! |
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Post by keef on Aug 4, 2015 21:31:10 GMT
Since no one has replied yet... I agree it's an obnoxious figure of speech, but usually the person using it doesn't mean it as rude as it comes off. Additionally I see it getting made fun of all the time on Reddit, so the general public probably agrees with you to some extent. I think it gets made fun of because with what, ~7 billion people on this planet, it's unlikely you'll ever be "the only one who". The phrase itself isn't rude, but the sentence it's in can be. Thanks Eversist and sapientcoffee. I now feel like a bit of an ass for whining about it. Sorry eightyfour. |
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Post by Per on Aug 5, 2015 0:31:38 GMT
Am I the only one who's noticed that Antimony has partially fire blood?
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Post by warrl on Aug 5, 2015 1:45:21 GMT
Annie isn't visible on this page. So how/where did you notice that?
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Post by Per on Aug 5, 2015 9:26:06 GMT
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Post by warrl on Aug 5, 2015 16:30:07 GMT
That probably came from the "I saw an opportunity" thread. The original picture is here. The text says nothing about her blood. |
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