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Post by gwydion on Jul 29, 2015 7:57:18 GMT
Well. I'm thankful that the Doctor grew another hand.
Well he can smile, he can't hold his alcohol and he looks like he's about to cry. Am I going to feel Sympathy for Tony next time?
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Post by Reynaerde on Jul 29, 2015 8:03:48 GMT
I want to feel sorry for him, I really do. It's obvious he's been though an ordeal. But his unwarranted harshness towards his teenage daughter makes it very difficult to sympathise with him, all the more so if his injury was a consequence of his actions in 'Divine'. His interaction with Donald today is very reminiscent of the friendship their daughters share. It should be making me smile, but it just serves to contrast the way he behaves towards Annie. What has she done that is so terrible in his eyes that he can't spare even a iota of that affection for her? She killed Surma. Not that Annie could help it, but Tony could not prevent it. Every time he sees Annie he is reminded of his wife, and of his failure to save her. He wants to prevent the same fate for Annie, everything he does is with that goal in mind and he's prepared to sacrifice a lot for that. His actions in Divine had something to do with that, but Zimmy spoiled it before he'd completed his task. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. (Alternatively, this is all part of some plan to sacrifice his daughter to get Surma back, in which case he's really went off the deep end and this comic's got itself a true Big Bad, even if a tragic one.)
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 29, 2015 8:05:13 GMT
It's not the more human behavior that's bothering people or making them more angry at Tony, it's the fact that he doesn't act that way around Annie. That his callousness towards her was not because he didn't know how or was unable to behave any differently, but because he chose not to. Are you certain of this? Recall how Tony acted towards Brinnie. As far as we were shown, cold and callously. But we were also shown that the root cause of this behavior was the feelings he had for her. Complex, conflicting feelings. It seems to me that Tony simply doesn't know how to handle such an internal conflict short of shutting down his emotions entirely. (The same sort of behavior we've seen from Annie in the past.) If anything, Tony's behavior shows that he does still care for Annie.
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Jul 29, 2015 8:06:16 GMT
Oh yes. The moment where we see Tony is not some evil monster, since yes he can smile and have drinks with his childhood friend. Or the moment we see he is not a robot? Yeah he is human and not some automaton or something other like Johnes or Rey or Ysengrin. Seems being human and also being an evil [expletive] is not an either/ or type of thingy. You really do not need to carry a trident and have cloved hooves to be someone who would abuse his child. If I had a dollar for every time I heard in the news "He/ she was such a nice friendly person! Who would have thought...." I'd had about one hundrend bucks. People are mutlifaceted. A murderer can love his mother and bring her flowers while still murdering. It all comes down on which aspect you think outweighs which aspect. Anthony Carver caused his daughter to mutilate herself. For me this outweighs his cracking a few jokes (you're allowed to have an opinion as to the quality of the humour) and having a drink with a friend. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion tbh this is just a comic after all.
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 29, 2015 8:19:25 GMT
I expected a Butt Zone ****storm, but so far it's almost entirely missing arm puns over there! (Edit: now the focus seems to have shifted to sex jokes... Figures.) One astute observation, though: Note the similarity in smiles; perhaps indicating analogous sincerity?
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Jul 29, 2015 8:28:27 GMT
I expected a Butt Zone ****storm, but so far it's almost entirely missing arm puns over there! One astute observation, though: View AttachmentNote the similarity in smiles; perhaps indicating analogous sincerity? Apologies but I do not understand whether you're convinced of the sincerity or not. Also Tony is lucky his intervention didn't cost him an arm and a leg. *rimshot*
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Post by sherni on Jul 29, 2015 8:30:26 GMT
She killed Surma. Not that Annie could help it, but Tony could not prevent it. Every time he sees Annie he is reminded of his wife, and of his failure to save her. No, no she didn't. If anyone killed Surma, it was Anthony and Surma herself for her decision to bear a child. Annie did not ask to be born. To blame a child if the mother dies as result of its birth is, however understandable, irrational and detrimental to the child. Anthony is an intelligent and, from what we hear, a rational man. Even if he emotionally cannot prevent himself from holding Surma's death against Annie, he should at least try to curb his behaviour so that he does not come across as if he is. He wants to prevent the same fate for Annie, everything he does is with that goal in mind and he's prepared to sacrifice a lot for that. His actions in Divine had something to do with that, but Zimmy spoiled it before he'd completed his task. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. (Alternatively, this is all part of some plan to sacrifice his daughter to get Surma back, in which case he's really went off the deep end and this comic's got itself a true Big Bad, even if a tragic one.) That makes sense to me too. But that only applies if he is certain that Annie actually wants to have a child. Knowing what happened to her mother, would she want to? Or would she prefer to retain her abilities. I'm pretty sure contraceptives are available if she needs them. Is it really fair to tamper with her body without her consent? She isn't ill. This isn't a cancer that needs emergency surgery.
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 29, 2015 8:36:37 GMT
Apologies but I do not understand whether you're convinced of the sincerity or not. That is the question, isn't it? Even if he emotionally cannot prevent himself from holding Surma's death against Annie, he should at least try to curb his behaviour so that he does not come across as if he is. I think he is trying, by suppressing his emotions.
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Post by eightyfour on Jul 29, 2015 8:38:06 GMT
Am I really the only one who isn't surprised by this page? I think most of the forum needs to re-read "Microsat 5", most notably Donnie's quote here in panel 1/2: Tony and Donnie are old childhood friends, I'm guessing Donnie is the only person alive who really knows Tony.
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 29, 2015 8:40:32 GMT
Am I really the only one who isn't surprised by this page? I'm with you, at least.
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 29, 2015 8:48:38 GMT
I have seen a clear-cut example of a good, social aspect of Tony's behavior in the last few pages being called childish. Had any other character said it, it's likely that's not the response the poster would have given. Yes, because context. It's not the more human behavior that's bothering people or making them more angry at Tony, it's the fact that he doesn't act that way around Annie. That his callousness towards her was not because he didn't know how or was unable to behave any differently, but because he chose not to. That is completely awful, and makes many see him as more deserving of scorn than when we thought he could only act like a badly made robot. This is a mistake in conclusions. The fact that he can open up to Donny doesn't mean he can open up to Antimony. Just because someone can be normal with their erstwhile best friend, doesn't mean they are capable of opening up to everyone else. I do not think Tony is callous with Annie because of a conscious choice, but because of an inability to deal with his emotions. (Just like she's incapable of dealing with hers.) There's more than enough emotional conflict with Annie for Tony to shut down with her.
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Post by arf on Jul 29, 2015 9:10:48 GMT
I can't believe that the Court doesn't have better artificial limbs. Gosh, if only somebody were working on artificial muscles, say, and the circuitry necessary to control them. It would be useful to get on the right side of such a person...
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Post by youwiththeface on Jul 29, 2015 9:11:37 GMT
Yes, because context. It's not the more human behavior that's bothering people or making them more angry at Tony, it's the fact that he doesn't act that way around Annie. That his callousness towards her was not because he didn't know how or was unable to behave any differently, but because he chose not to. That is completely awful, and makes many see him as more deserving of scorn than when we thought he could only act like a badly made robot. This is a mistake in conclusions. The fact that he can open up to Donny doesn't mean he can open up to Antimony. Just because someone can be normal with their erstwhile best friend, doesn't mean they are capable of opening up to everyone else. I do not think Tony is callous with Annie because of a conscious choice, but because of an inability to deal with his emotions. (Just like she's incapable of dealing with hers.) There's more than enough emotional conflict with Annie for Tony to shut down with her. It's not the more human behavior that's bothering people or making them more angry at Tony, it's the fact that he doesn't act that way around Annie. That his callousness towards her was not because he didn't know how or was unable to behave any differently, but because he chose not to. Are you certain of this? Recall how Tony acted towards Brinnie. As far as we were shown, cold and callously. But we were also shown that the root cause of this behavior was the feelings he had for her. Complex, conflicting feelings. It seems to me that Tony simply doesn't know how to handle such an internal conflict short of shutting down his emotions entirely. (The same sort of behavior we've seen from Annie in the past.) If anything, Tony's behavior shows that he does still care for Annie. We were shown that Tony was more emotional about the situation than he let on, but that doesn't mean he gave a damn about Brinnie. For all we know he was freaking out because he couldn't figure out how to tell her to leave him alone. And even if he isn't capable of showing how he really feels around Annie, that's still a serious failing that is hurting her, and possibly him. And it's still infuriating that he could figure out how to be open for a friend, but not his own daughter, who would need him to be. If you don't think you can do that, for the sake of your kids, you get help for that. Or maybe don't have kids in the first place. And the fact that he can joke about that hand when you consider the reason he may have lost it... Yes, because context. It's not the more human behavior that's bothering people or making them more angry at Tony, it's the fact that he doesn't act that way around Annie. That his callousness towards her was not because he didn't know how or was unable to behave any differently, but because he chose not to. That is completely awful, and makes many see him as more deserving of scorn than when we thought he could only act like a badly made robot. The validity of that statement has no bearing on what I said. Being called childish exclusively as an attempt to vilify a character when such behavior wouldn't be disparaged from any other character is discriminatory and leads to unsavory attitudes among readers. Take an objective look at what is good and bad about characters, and don't twist actions or words away from what they would be if another character said it lightheartedly. What makes you think posters calling Tony childish don't just legitimately think he is? Or that they might not have a point? And what I meant to do by bringing up context was to point out the validity of judging a character as childish and not another in many instances is dependent on context. For example, Annie running off to the forest for a summer after finding out how her mother died is a very different situation from Tony running off and abandoning her without so much as a word. Because the context of both situations is very different. She was a young woman who just found out something traumatic, and Tony was a grown ass man with a responsibility to Annie that he abandoned without so much as a warning.
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Post by Nnelg on Jul 29, 2015 9:31:21 GMT
We were shown that Tony was more emotional about the situation than he let on, but that doesn't mean he gave a damn about Brinnie. For all we know he was freaking out because he couldn't figure out how to tell her to leave him alone. Tony's words seem to indicate otherwise. And even if he isn't capable of showing how he really feels around Annie, that's still a serious failing that is hurting her, and possibly him. And it's still infuriating that he could figure out how to be open for a friend, but not his own daughter, who would need him to be. True on both counts. In fact, frustration with himself may compound the issue, making it even harder for himself to open up. If you don't think you can do that, for the sake of your kids, you get help for that. Or maybe don't have kids in the first place. Perhaps Tony still holds out hope that things can still work out in the end. After all, it's only been a short time since he returned. And if he truly cares for Annie, he's not going to just give up on raising her himself. And the fact that he can joke about that hand when you consider the reason he may have lost it... I think that shows a healthy ability to acknowledge his past mistakes.
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Post by arf on Jul 29, 2015 9:39:52 GMT
Apart from Tony's shock revelations, there are two bits of trivia to note:
1. We have the thumbnail image! (panel 2)
2. Don has just wrecked the Feng-Shui of the place (also panel 2)
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Post by artezzatrigger on Jul 29, 2015 9:46:55 GMT
I can't believe that the Court doesn't have better artificial limbs. Gosh, if only somebody were working on artificial muscles, say, and the circuitry necessary to control them. He probably got the arm before coming back to the Court. Who knows, he may replace it in the future as part of a turning point.
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Garbage
New Member
ANTHONY CARVER DEFENSE FORCE, 1ST LIEUTENANT OF THE SUPPORT DIVISION
Posts: 29
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Post by Garbage on Jul 29, 2015 9:55:48 GMT
TONY CARVER SMILING AND JOKING I WEAR THIS SIGNATURE BANNER WITH HONOR AGAIN
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Post by fish on Jul 29, 2015 9:57:38 GMT
Am I really the only one who isn't surprised by this page? I'm with you, at least. Don't worry, you guys are not alone. All these moral discussions going on in here; I'm just looking at the page thinking "Yes! Story time!" Also, arf, what did you do to Zimmy's hair?!
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haspen
Full Member
Hat Kat
Posts: 131
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Post by haspen on Jul 29, 2015 10:03:03 GMT
Awwww yeah another masterful plotwist nuke by Tom Siddell. And your guys' reactions are equally funny. Part of the reason why I read the forums :3 *is all like i.imgur.com/0hQyd5L.gif now :3*
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Post by aline on Jul 29, 2015 10:06:38 GMT
The fact that he can open up to Donny doesn't mean he can open up to Antimony. Just because someone can be normal with their erstwhile best friend, doesn't mean they are capable of opening up to everyone else. That. Also no one has the same relationship to their best friend and to their children. Doesn't mean that his relationship to his kid isn't unhealthy and that he has no responsibility in this. But people seem to assume he's doing all that for the sole purpose of making her miserable, and there's obviously a heavy and complicated background behind Tony's attitude. Personnally, I don't think he's unable to create a bond with his daughter. Rather, I think he's completely wrong about what she needs from him. He's being a cold blooded control freak because he thinks that's what he's got to be for Annie. A lot of that is posturing. And what I meant to do by bringing up context was to point out the validity of judging a character as childish and not another in many instances is dependent on context. For example, Annie running off to the forest for a summer after finding out how her mother died is a very different situation from Tony running off and abandoning her without so much as a word. Because the context of both situations is very different. She was a young woman who just found out something traumatic, and Tony was a grown ass man with a responsibility to Annie that he abandoned without so much as a warning. But it's helpful too to remember we're still missing a lot of context about Tony. For example, imagine the Fire Spike events from Kat's point of view instead of Annie's, and with Annie's motives kept hidden from us readers. Wouldn't she look like kind of a jerk? I'm not saying that those situations are the same. For a start, Kat isn't Annie's daughter. But it's not all black and white. Annie's decision, while understandable, was also hurtful for people who cared about her. As for Tony's decisions, there's no doubt about the damage it caused. But we're still missing the motives so we can't even begin to understand them.
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Post by Purgatorius on Jul 29, 2015 10:30:29 GMT
One astute observation, though: Note the similarity in smiles; perhaps indicating analogous sincerity? I was also impressed with how Tony and Annie look similar to each other here.
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Post by foresterr on Jul 29, 2015 10:50:40 GMT
You know, I don't really think choice has that much to do with how Tony treats Donald vs. everybody else.
I'm sure it would be possible for him to start treating somebody else in a more human way (maybe even his own daughter, for one!), but compared to a more typical person, reaching this stage would likely require a lot more time staying in contact, and a lot of focused effort on his part. Also taking up that effort would probably suffer from a bit of a chicken and egg problem.
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Post by justcurious on Jul 29, 2015 11:34:30 GMT
I wonder what Annie's reaction will be when she realizes that her father was scarred and maimed by one of her friends who was defending her from him? I can imagine some awfully mixed feelings.
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Post by arf on Jul 29, 2015 11:39:09 GMT
Also, arf, what did you do to Zimmy's hair?! Zimmy thinks she's someone else again (and can't deal with the whitelegs just now)
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Post by Lightice on Jul 29, 2015 12:05:01 GMT
Weirdly enough, the more emotion he displays, he angrier and more uncomfortable he makes me. He really is capable of holding a conversation, he's capable of being warm and friendly, he just doesn't even try to do so for his daughter. He doesn't see it as being worth the effort, whatever reasoning he provides for himself as to why. That's just so depressing and excruciating, it's awful. Yes, because context. It's not the more human behavior that's bothering people or making them more angry at Tony, it's the fact that he doesn't act that way around Annie. That his callousness towards her was not because he didn't know how or was unable to behave any differently, but because he chose not to. That is completely awful, and makes many see him as more deserving of scorn than when we thought he could only act like a badly made robot. I thinnk that you both are missing the point badly, here. Tony, as we see him here, is only capable of opening up in the exclusive presence of his only friend. It's not a matter of choice to him, but something the life has conditioned him into. Alcohol might also help. I strongly suspect, actually, that Antimony is the one person he has most difficulty to be emotive towards. The comic's been building parallels between Anthony and her for some time, now, and it would seem likely that these two have been building identical walls against each other for a long time, and crossing them is going to take a lot more effort than acting reasonably towards any third party. I still wouldn't be surprised if Anthony has managed to physically cut off his emotions in a manner similar to Annie to avoid dealing with them as I speculated a few weeks ago, but it works just as well metaphorically. He's still a crummy dad, but not because he's evil or indifferent; it would seem that like Annie, he is scared of his own emotions and Donald isn't a constant enough a presence in his life to alleviate this behaviour like Kat has been doing with Annie.
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Blitz
New Member
Posts: 43
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Post by Blitz on Jul 29, 2015 12:09:17 GMT
Jesus, Tony.
Tony, Jesus.
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Post by Rasselas on Jul 29, 2015 12:18:17 GMT
The fact that he can open up to Donny doesn't mean he can open up to Antimony. Just because someone can be normal with their erstwhile best friend, doesn't mean they are capable of opening up to everyone else. That. Also no one has the same relationship to their best friend and to their children. Doesn't mean that his relationship to his kid isn't unhealthy and that he has no responsibility in this. But people seem to assume he's doing all that for the sole purpose of making her miserable, and there's obviously a heavy and complicated background behind Tony's attitude. Personnally, I don't think he's unable to create a bond with his daughter. Rather, I think he's completely wrong about what she needs from him. He's being a cold blooded control freak because he thinks that's what he's got to be for Annie. A lot of that is posturing. I agree completely.
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Post by kalechibki on Jul 29, 2015 12:43:47 GMT
Tom. TOM, DON'T YOU START HUMANIZING TONY -NOW- YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THAT WILL CONFLICT ME. I'm now truly frightened of what Annie saw here with Jones if he's willing to show us this smile of Tony's. TOM - WHAT DOES JONES LOOK LIKE??!?!?!!?
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 29, 2015 13:44:07 GMT
I'd like to mention that the community here has unanimously formed a hate mob for Tony, and even if he shows redeemable qualities in the future, he'll likely remain a hated character. But I want to remind folks: If he does a good thing, praise the good thing he did. Don't twist it to be a bad thing. That's just dumb. I think this is an oversimplification. If he was just entirely devoid of emotion, that would be one thing. But to see that he can in fact show emotions, but doesn't even try to do so around Annie, who's so desperate for his approval that she literally had a mental breakdown from talking with him for less than five minutes? I assume we'll learn interesting things about him in this chapter, but this page isn't a "good thing". And that smile looks freaky as hell, honestly. I'm imagining squeals of rusted metal as the long-ignored muscles in Tony's face try to move. I wonder if Tony's nominal reason for returning to the Court is to acquire better prosthetics. I'm certain Kat could build him one; maybe if she gets over her anger at some point in the next thousand pages, she'll make one as a peacemaking gift.
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Post by Spades Slick on Jul 29, 2015 13:53:34 GMT
Oh yes. The moment where we see Tony is not some evil monster, since yes he can smile and have drinks with his childhood friend. Or the moment we see he is not a robot? Yeah he is human and not some automaton or something other like Johnes or Rey or Ysengrin. Seems being human and also being an evil [expletive] is not an either/ or type of thingy. You really do not need to carry a trident and have cloved hooves to be someone who would abuse his child. If I had a dollar for every time I heard in the news "He/ she was such a nice friendly person! Who would have thought...." I'd had about one hundrend bucks. People are mutlifaceted. A murderer can love his mother and bring her flowers while still murdering. It all comes down on which aspect you think outweighs which aspect. Anthony Carver caused his daughter to mutilate herself. For me this outweighs his cracking a few jokes (you're allowed to have an opinion as to the quality of the humour) and having a drink with a friend. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion tbh this is just a comic after all. I'm sorry? He didn't "cause" her to do anything; she lost control of her emotions and, rather than submit to it, decided that the best way to handle it was to separate herself from her ethereal essence. Tony gave no command, no suggestion, not even a hint that this was what he wanted; Annie chose to cut her hair herself. While it's true that it was Tony's presence that caused her emotional outburst, she herself chose to deal with it in the way we've seen.
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