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Post by geminisun on May 7, 2015 7:50:56 GMT
If this is where Anthony has Annie staying, I will immediately begin research into the theoretical physics of reaching into a fictional universe in order to punch a fictional character. I expect results, Mr. Geminisun. Don't worry, I will be sure to let everyone know when my Trans-Fictional Punch-O-Tron™ is complete. (It's Ms., by the way. Thought I had that visible...) |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on May 7, 2015 8:19:56 GMT
You know, don't you Annie? that you can stay a little closer to the door. === I suppose the metal door was a clue; this is close to the underwater rooms. But...No chair? No desk? No bed? No bath? No toilet? I can understand a certain starkness, but the necessities are not here. There at least needs to be some kind of canopy for shade. That room is going to be brutally hot during the day, and brutally cold at night, unless there's some ventilation. Heaven knows, I've tried to give Anthony every benefit of the doubt--but this is worse than many prison cells. This really is the kind of place they put you in for brainwashing. Me no likey. I don't think this is where she lives. Like you said, even as an austere environment, it's missing necessities. It's more likely a middle ground between where she lives and the rest of GK. Or in other words, she's probably even more isolated than this  |
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Post by Rasselas on May 7, 2015 8:55:42 GMT
Yeah, I refuse to hate Anthony, not because I in any way approve of what he's being depicted as doing, but because it's reached the point where I feel Tom is rubbing my face in it: "Hate this man! See how horrible and mean he is to your beloved protagonist!" I would really appreciate at this point some indication of what Anthony is actually thinking or hoping to achieve. Even just show him talking to someone, anyone, without Annie being present. There's a reason why I personally can't hate Anthony, despite acknowledging that what he did to Annie was terrible. Imagine that instead of being a fire elemental, Annie had cancer. And Tony was a medical doctor, and his wife already died because he couldn't do anything to save her. Why is there no sympathy for his position? Of course, Annie's ailment is also an essential part of who she is, but to him - it's a deadly disease. We have a lot of information to judge Anthony's motivations and state of mind, showed previously in the comic. Just compare all the dangers Annie's been exposed to in the Court, to what her father is doing now. Reynardine tried to kill her, Coyote threatened to snip off her hand, Jeanne almost trapped and killed her. Anthony might not know about these events, but he knows surely about the dangers of the Court and Forest. So how can one blame him for wanting to protect her? We can all see it's completely misguided, and harmful to Annie, but at least we can try to understand why. What I prefer to do as a reader is keep both positions balanced: a sympathy and understanding of Anthony, as well as Annie. I prefer to try to understand the motivations, rather than vilify. Although, there are situations where outright villainy was described - I'm not going to empathize a lot with Diego. I hope Anthony doesn't end up so irredeemable, because his character has a lot of potential to be a poignantly tragic one. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 7, 2015 10:25:40 GMT
But actually the whole Court. Anthony seemed to be a caring, if socially awkward, teenager, but now he seems to be a monster. Anja, Donald, and Eglamore seem to be caring people, but it appears that some number of months have passed and it appears that no one has helped Annie. Headmaster probably had a lot of shits to give, but not anymore. How have you detected a passage of time in the range of "some number of months"? Guess I'm clueless, I don't see any reason to think that it isn't a few hours later, or a day later, or a week or so. Kat is wearing a jacket. It isn't a very practical jacket, but it is still a jacket. Chapter 51 was at the start of the school year in August or early September when it is too warm for that jacket. To me the jacket implies that it is October or November. P.S. I still think that the jacket is/was Annie's. It seems too fashionable for Kat, Annie probably left the clothes she couldn't/wouldn't wear anymore, and Kat wore Aly's cloths after he left. |
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Post by sherni on May 7, 2015 10:26:21 GMT
The smock, the hair cut, all of that, even not wearing makeup, all of that is Annie herself, letting go not of everything she's achieved, but at least shedding the outward signs of her trying to take her Mom's role, and certainly of the class uniform she may feel she's not entitled to anymore. And in its way, that humbling of herself speaks more loudly to me than anything Anthony might have ordered. This is Annie rebuilding herself. As painful as it is, I think she'll be better for it. I can't say that I agree with this part. Aside from her makeup, Annie wore her hair very differently from the way her mother used to, and she had begun to develop a distinct dress sense of her own. We can see Surma all dressed up here and here. While Annie's outfits do resemble her mother's at first, the style- and the colouring gradually begin to change and become hers. As of From the Forest She Came, it's especially drastic. In fact, Annie can't imitate her mother, because she doesn't actually know much about her. She did not know about Surma's role as the Medium, or her Fire Elemental ancestry, or any other work she did for the Court. Annie was very much coming into her own here. It is clear that she enjoyed doing her hair and dressing up. Now all of this is gone, and it is not a very good sign. She actually looks far more like her mother did in hospital than anything else. Yes, she will have to rebuild herself, but for better or worse we do not yet know. |
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bmat
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Post by bmat on May 7, 2015 12:34:33 GMT
Yeah, I refuse to hate Anthony, not because I in any way approve of what he's being depicted as doing, but because it's reached the point where I feel Tom is rubbing my face in it: "Hate this man! See how horrible and mean he is to your beloved protagonist!" I would really appreciate at this point some indication of what Anthony is actually thinking or hoping to achieve. Even just show him talking to someone, anyone, without Annie being present. There's a reason why I personally can't hate Anthony, despite acknowledging that what he did to Annie was terrible. Imagine that instead of being a fire elemental, Annie had cancer. And Tony was a medical doctor, and his wife already died because he couldn't do anything to save her. Why is there no sympathy for his position? Of course, Annie's ailment is also an essential part of who she is, but to him - it's a deadly disease. We have a lot of information to judge Anthony's motivations and state of mind, showed previously in the comic. Just compare all the dangers Annie's been exposed to in the Court, to what her father is doing now. Reynardine tried to kill her, Coyote threatened to snip off her hand, Jeanne almost trapped and killed her. Anthony might not know about these events, but he knows surely about the dangers of the Court and Forest. So how can one blame him for wanting to protect her? We can all see it's completely misguided, and harmful to Annie, but at least we can try to understand why. What I prefer to do as a reader is keep both positions balanced: a sympathy and understanding of Anthony, as well as Annie. I prefer to try to understand the motivations, rather than vilify. Although, there are situations where outright villainy was described - I'm not going to empathize a lot with Diego. I hope Anthony doesn't end up so irredeemable, because his character has a lot of potential to be a poignantly tragic one. I agree that he is misguided and that we need to understand why, BUT - even if he is sincerely trying to help her, it is difficult to condone the way he has done this, publicly humiliating her about the make up, and coldly announcing changes for her. We don't know that Anthony required the hair cut or austere clothing. They could be Annie's choice. Kat did keep interrupting her. It is possible that the Court had decided to take lethal action against Annie, and Anthony convinced them to let Anthony get her to toe the line (or whatever it is the Court wanted changed.) Maybe his cold demeanor was actually very tight control over himself as every parental instinct told him that what he was doing to her was cold-hearted. It is also possible that all of Anthony's actions are for the end purpose of getting control of Reynard, whether for himself or under duress for the court. Then I think back to the bones from the sky and the thought then that Anthony was trying to rip the fire elemental out of her, and I'm back to being angry at Anthony for dimming Annie's light. |
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bmat
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Post by bmat on May 7, 2015 12:39:51 GMT
How have you detected a passage of time in the range of "some number of months"? Guess I'm clueless, I don't see any reason to think that it isn't a few hours later, or a day later, or a week or so. Kat is wearing a jacket. It isn't a very practical jacket, but it is still a jacket. Chapter 51 was at the start of the school year in August or early September when it is too warm for that jacket. To me the jacket implies that it is October or November. P.S. I still think that the jacket is/was Annie's. It seems too fashionable for Kat, Annie probably left the clothes she couldn't/wouldn't wear anymore, and Kat wore Aly's cloths after he left. Could the jacket be because Kat has something hidden in there?- possibly Reynard?  |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 7, 2015 15:58:35 GMT
Kat is wearing a jacket. It isn't a very practical jacket, but it is still a jacket. Chapter 51 was at the start of the school year in August or early September when it is too warm for that jacket. To me the jacket implies that it is October or November. P.S. I still think that the jacket is/was Annie's. It seems too fashionable for Kat, Annie probably left the clothes she couldn't/wouldn't wear anymore, and Kat wore Aly's cloths after he left. Could the jacket be because Kat has something hidden in there?- possibly Reynard? Nice wishful thinking, but I think you will be disappointed. If Reynard was missing, Anthomy would report it to the Court and the Court would stop at nothing to find and contain the threat. I suppose the Court might let Eglamore, Donald, and Anja control/contain Reynard again and Anthony might not care as long as Annie didn't have contact with Reynard. Now you have me thinking wishfully. |
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Post by hypixion on May 7, 2015 16:10:52 GMT
I don't think that, if Anthony has forbidden for them to meet, they will meet in the place where Annie has to stay.
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Post by The Anarch on May 7, 2015 16:43:51 GMT
I can't help but think that this room could be the foyer to Anthony and Annie's 50 room mansion.
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Post by Onomatopoeia on May 7, 2015 17:06:49 GMT
In fact, Annie can't imitate her mother, because she doesn't actually know much about her. She did not know about Surma's role as the Medium, or her Fire Elemental ancestry, or any other work she did for the Court. It's possible to emulate someone you know little about, especially if you've constructed an idealized version of them in your head. And since her mother was by her side for half her entire life, as opposed to an at best distant father, and as she died when Annie was young, it's not hard to imagine that Annie's picture of Surma far surpasses the original model. She didn't know about Surma's role as Medium, or her Fire Elemental ancestry at first, but she did find out eventually. |
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Post by fuzzyone on May 7, 2015 19:20:04 GMT
Well, one thing arguing against months... Annie's hair is still a bit jagged at the ends. As in, it hasn't grown out to be re-cut in this configuration. I would imagine that she would visit the barber-bots in that time, so that even if she kept her hair like that, maintaining it would look neater than the old "Gather the ponytail and hack" approach.
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Post by Vilthuril on May 7, 2015 19:48:49 GMT
I think if the robots went after Anthony we'd all be rooting for injuries, but neither Annie nor probably even Kat would want anyone to hurt Anthony (least not so far) and that happening would not help Annie get unbrainwashed. Well, I'm not interested in anyone being physically hurt. After all, Anthony is a jerk, but then who among us is qualified to throw the first stone, on the account of utter non-jerkiness? Definitely not I!  Anyway, a jerk was also a child sometime. Now, be it said, understanding (or for that matter not understanding yet) why someone is the way they are and not wanting them hurt, any more than necessary, doesn't mean ignoring the damage they cause or not trying to stop them.  (Edit: I would change that last sentence to, "...ignoring or excusing the damage..." And as I say below, it doesn't mean having "sympathy" for nasty things adults do. Example: My son's mother refused to have anything to do with him from when he was just a few months old, and his maternal grandparents refused to have anything to do with him ever. Well, and there are reasons for this; all of them went through various forms of extravagantly hellish child-and/or-adulthoods themselves. So, this I understand. But when my son's mother, back when we were still in touch, would say that I had to understand where her own mother was coming from and the difficulties she had gone through and not blame her for ignoring her grandchild, I said baloney! Whatever her reasons and emotional scars, verified, speculated at, or whatever...who cares? They make no difference to the outcome as far as the child is concerned: lack of contact, emotion or support. Example two: My parents work with men on death row, in large part to keep them from getting so beaten down that they give up their legal appeals. Some of them are just plain innocent, for example a (Black) guy who was convicted of a murder near where I grew up solely on the basis of a (White) woman who was convicted a few years later of committing a different murder and almost certainly killed the other people also; the Black man did get let out eventually but needless to say the prosecutors, police and legal authorities never, ever admit that there was any mistake. My parents are clear, though, that most of these guys really should not ever be let out of prison; they are just too mentally ill and unpredictable outside a controlled setting. Why is completely understandable; almost all of them had, again, extravagantly hellish childhoods with utterly dysfunctional families, if for no other reason than because murderers with money, high intelligence, and/or functional families [sometimes the very co-defendants of the guys on death row for the same crimes, or even being the ones who did the killing while the guy who got the death sentence just waited outside] are able to buy or otherwise manipulate their way to lesser sentences, that being to a great degree the nature of the legal system. So again, understand? Sure. Want someone killed or badly hurt? Not at all, ever. Excuse/don't blame/don't dislike the person for what they did? Likewise not at all. What they did - as adults - was hateful and evil, and the reasons are irrelevant.) |
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Post by Vilthuril on May 7, 2015 20:11:38 GMT
Although, there are situations where outright villainy was described - I'm not going to empathize a lot with Diego. I hope Anthony doesn't end up so irredeemable, because his character has a lot of potential to be a poignantly tragic one. I think Anthony is already well beyond the point of possible redemption, and the actions he has taken are only slightly less abusive or immoral than what Diego did. Yes, he hasn't killed anyone because of a "broken heart," but he has abandoned and then both physically and emotionally manipulated and abused a child, showing absolutely no human emotion, kindness, understanding or sympathy towards her at any point. Even if he would see his motivation, as speculated, as "fear" for Antimony as opposed to just wanting to gather power, which also seems possible, the way he has gone at it has been utterly evil at every point - and the worse because it is aimed at a child. Understand why he is this way? Surely, as I wrote above. Want him harmed or killed? Not at all! Romanticize him as "poignantly tragic?" Yich! The guy is an adult, and needs to either stop what he is doing or be stopped - hopefully without even more violence than he has already perpetrated, but regardless. |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on May 7, 2015 20:44:36 GMT
There's difference between beyond the point of redemption and beyond the point where people are willing to forgive him because they've got their heads up their posteriors.
Since most of his actions aren't actually abusive, despite what his detractors will claim to the contrary (and no, we're not getting into that, so don't even bother), it's perfectly possible for him to do a 360. He needs to be confronted and made to rectify the situation, not be completely written off as a relentless abuser whose only goal in life is to destroy Antimony.
If, and only if, that happens and he still refuses to change, then he can be considered beyond hope.
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Post by sherni on May 7, 2015 20:57:48 GMT
In fact, Annie can't imitate her mother, because she doesn't actually know much about her. She did not know about Surma's role as the Medium, or her Fire Elemental ancestry, or any other work she did for the Court. It's possible to emulate someone you know little about, especially if you've constructed an idealized version of them in your head. And since her mother was by her side for half her entire life, as opposed to an at best distant father, and as she died when Annie was young, it's not hard to imagine that Annie's picture of Surma far surpasses the original model. She didn't know about Surma's role as Medium, or her Fire Elemental ancestry at first, but she did find out eventually. That is certainly true. Annie has a very idealised image of her parents. Surma certainly had her flaws. She was sneaky, cunning and willing to lure the (then) innocent Reynardine into a trap. No matter what the Court wanted to do with him, it was a pretty nasty thing to do. And we've never seen her express any regret for that, either. Although to be fair, we hardly see her at all. Annie's life would have revolved around Surma, and to give the lady some credit, she seems to have been a very warm and loving mother who likely contributed a lot to her daughter's compassionate nature and open mindedness. But she also promised Annie that she would never send her into danger. And then she sent her to Gunnerkrigg Court. Though maybe that is the safest place for a part Elemental? But yeah, to an extent, Annie is following in her mother's footsteps, but she is doing it in her own way and taking a rather different approach than Surma. Her friendship and love for Reynardine is genuine, for example. But she isn't doing it to take her mother's place, she's doing it because she wants the job and enjoys it. That makes all the difference. |
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Post by Vilthuril on May 7, 2015 21:19:24 GMT
Additional thought: If this was happening in a regular society with regular laws, this would - as I've mentioned before - be a straightforward civil, child welfare issue and process. A putatively unbiased set of third parties, operating in public, would step in and assess the situation and try to work with the people involved to protect the child. Questions of violent intervention wouldn't come up. Of course, the problem with Gunnerkrigg Court (the place, not the comic) is that there is apparently no set law outside the whims of the power group of (unpleasant, conniving, secretive) people who make up "The Court" that decides questions like who will be the next Medium with the Forest. Not clear who those people are other than the Headmaster, since they do not seem to include anyone such as Jones, the Donlans, Eglamore - despite him having a big official position - or for that matter the Medium him/herself. All of these are outside the black box where decisions are made. Frankly, the best way to keep children safe would be to keep them as far as possible away from this whacko, dangerous, non-law-based place. (I always think the same thing about Hogwarts/"The Wizarding World." Even at best it's full of horrifying practices such as the only criminal punishment being to torture people into insanity at Azkaban, the oppression of the Goblins and House Elves, constant bullying and abuse by both students and teachers at the one available school, and just general ongoing danger at ever turn.) Well, it is what it is, and since there is no reason to think The Court is going to change the way it operates, the only way to fix things does seem to be sneaking/subversion/subterfuge, and particularly undermining Anthony's ability to get what he wants, whether by making his life difficult directly, undermining him in the eyes of The Court, or whatever.
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Post by Rasselas on May 7, 2015 21:31:47 GMT
I think Anthony is already well beyond the point of possible redemption, and the actions he has taken are only slightly less abusive or immoral than what Diego did. Yes, he hasn't killed anyone because of a "broken heart," but he has abandoned and then both physically and emotionally manipulated and abused a child, showing absolutely no human emotion, kindness, understanding or sympathy towards her at any point. Even if he would see his motivation, as speculated, as "fear" for Antimony as opposed to just wanting to gather power, which also seems possible, the way he has gone at it has been utterly evil at every point - and the worse because it is aimed at a child. Understand why he is this way? Surely, as I wrote above. Want him harmed or killed? Not at all! Romanticize him as "poignantly tragic?" Yich! The guy is an adult, and needs to either stop what he is doing or be stopped - hopefully without even more violence than he has already perpetrated, but regardless. We will have to disagree on that. What were the consequences of his actions? He abandoned her for years - this, for me, is the worst of all. To abandon your child when her mother has died and leave her alone to fend for herself, in a strange place? That's terrible, but understandable under the circumstances. She was also the reason why Surma died. He would be terribly conflicted. On the other hand, what were the consequences of this? She lived among her parents' friends and had everything provided for her. He pushed her back a grade to atone for cheating. Again, look at the consequences. Short-term it isolates her from her friends, long-term she gets an actual education. She gets to face the consequences of her actions (something she's been sorely missing), and regain a sense of personal integrity through it. This is precisely what parents are for, to enact this type of correction. Eventually, she'll reconnect with her friends and build new friendships. It sucks now, but long-term it'll be fine. He ordered her not to visit the Forest, and hand over Renard. This is a mixed bag. I'd argue that Anthony made these decisions from a lack of information, so perhaps there is a chance that he will amend them when he learns more. From all he knows now, these are avenues of deadly danger for Annie. And he's not entirely wrong! Reynardine did try to kill her, and Coyote is Coyote. Long-term, I don't expect either of these to last. Finally, there are the cosmetic changes like clothes, hair and her living arrangements. We're all aghast at the huge room, but nobody remembers back to the first chapter dorms. Those seemed insanely dangerous to me. And cramped. Hair will grow back, Annie will gradually recover. It's terrible now, but long-term these are the most inconsequential. People sling the word "abuse" all too easily. What Tony is doing borders on abuse, it's cold, and it feels terrible. But try to look outside the emotional bubble created by the recent chapter. Tony's actions are those of a good parent. Kat's parents don't allow her to go to the Forest, either. Nor would they have allowed her to have Reynardine. Nor would they be all too pleased with cheating. Tony's rap sheet is too long, too much, too soon. We are all still reeling in shock from the emotional impact of the change. But there needs to be some perspective, too. |
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Post by Vilthuril on May 7, 2015 22:17:04 GMT
People sling the word "abuse" all too easily. What Tony is doing borders on abuse, it's cold, and it feels terrible. But try to look outside the emotional bubble created by the recent chapter. Tony's actions are those of a good parent. Kat's parents don't allow her to go to the Forest, either. Nor would they have allowed her to have Reynardine. Nor would they be all too pleased with cheating. Tony's rap sheet is too long, too much, too soon. We are all still reeling in shock from the emotional impact of the change. But there needs to be some perspective, too. So...his rap sheet is too long...and what he does borders on abuse, is cold...but nothing he did was abuse because all of it wasn't abuse, and indeed all his actions were those of a good parent because one thing he did - not letting her go to the forest - was also done by someone else and would likely be done by most parents? And the emotional abuse/shaming in the classroom in front of her friends and everything else he did was just fine, because maybe there was some underlying reason for it in his mind, and maybe it will all lead to a somewhat better outcome in the long run, assuming it doesn't completely destroy her, lead her to running away and getting into even worse problems, or the like even though experience and research show those are more often than what you speculate the result of such parental mistreatment. (Incidentally, you forgot the operating-on-a-competent-teenager-without-informing-her-or-getting-her-consent, which is indeed physical abuse - no ifs and or buts - under the law anywhere in the English speaking world. You also are completely speculating that they would not have let Kat keep Reynardine in the same circumstances; after all, they did discuss the question in regard to Annie and realize that the alternatives to her keeping him were very problematic, if any.) And no, I'm not looking at it this way because I'm just emotionally invested in this character. First of all, I've never been an Antimony fan (yes, heresy I know!) as such, though I have nothing against her either, but more of a Kat and Paz fan. And, if you look back at what I have written before, you will see that, a) I parsed things carefully according to the common legal standards, including noting where some of his actions are indeed not abuse, or not intrinsically, because despite what you claim I do not just go around "slinging" the word abuse randomly; b) I have not gone over the edge like many who (unfortunately, I would say, though remembering this is after all just a comic and thus imaginary!) call for him to be physically hurt. I am seeing it this way because I believe that children's needs come first, and adults mistreating children is never justified; children need adult supervision, protection and direction, but these need to be done in an appropriate way, not used as excuses for violence or mental abuse; and it is up to the adult to take acknowledge responsibility for himself and his past, get over his issues or problems or history, and act appropriately. I see it this way not because I think Annie should be able to keep running around in the forest and cheating and such, but because Anthony's approach to stopping these things - assuming that is indeed what he really cares about - is by way of over-the-top, unnecessary, inappropriate, and in itself very likely damaging actions that meet both the legal and moral definitions of abuse. Anyway, going back to the key item in what you wrote(*): The unequivocal, full-stop, absolute statement, " Tony's actions are those of a good parent." As you note, you will believe what you want, as also will the relatively small group of others who desperately want to justify Anthony across the board and no matter what, regardless of how much that requires ignoring what we already know and wildly speculating about potential later revelations. But no, no his "actions" are not those of a good parent; and I really doubt you are going to convince most of the people here that they are or that they should not dislike him. Just like the fact that you can find one or two not-intrinsically-unreasonable things (or imagine one or two not-intrinsically-unreasonable causes) behind Anthony's behaviour does not make everything he does even potentially right, and just because some people take anger at Anthony very far one way likewise does not make you correct in going completely the other direction by saying that everyone has to understand and feel for him, and from there indeed view everything he does as correct. (*)In previous posts you presented yourself as feeling for both Antimony and Anthony and not blaming either of them. The problem is that this was an untenable position in terms of this story, because the power relationships are not equal and the behaviours are not equivalent. And certainly when the surface was scratched it turned out to be untenable for you. Why? Because you have now completely supported the view that Anthony's actions are intrinsically correct across the board, no matter how he chooses to put them into effect, and whatever emotions and motivations he has are totally valid and worthy of respect and consideration. On the other hand, while we may feel for Antimony's pain, she was essentially in the wrong about everything and is the one that will need to change, meanwhile putting up with whatever comes her way from Anthony no matter how much and how intentionally he hurts her emotionally. Well, one more for the banned list; the question of whether we should "dislike" characters is not a problem, but I have no interest in ongoing discussions with people who believe that any kind of cruelty by a parent is justified, and "not abuse," as long as there might be some reason for some kind of parental action around something. Indeed, I see that one of the previous people I blocked for general nastiness and parent-always-right-no-matter-what, consider/speculate/imagine-the-poor-parent's-feelings/difficulties/problems-and-forgive-them-anything-and-just-hope/expect/demand-the-child-to-be-the-effective-grownup-and-overcome-it-all absolutism has already liked your post. No surprise, I guess. |
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Sadie
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I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on May 7, 2015 22:36:59 GMT
The more this whole charade continues, the more my respect for Tom diminishes. A guy that's supposed to be logical and methodical just shows up out of the blue and starts fucking with Annie's life for no evident reason. I'm trying to give Anthony the benefit of the doubt in the face of the crazy people screaming for his bloody murder because HE WAS MEAN TO ANNIE but this is just ridiculous. I'm intrigued by your perception of this story element, honestly. If Tom wrote Anthony to be an antagonist, why would that character acting in antagonistic ways result in you losing respect for the author? I've got nothing against you or your opinion, I'm just curious about how you got to it. A lot of readers have reacted to Anthony causing trouble for Annie by being mad at Anthony. You're holding very firm to Anthony's previous actions as being reasonable in context, and now that they're starting to push the line of acceptability for you, it sounds like it's impacting your opinion of the writing itself, not the character. As for Anthony -- he's a completely different person once you got to know him. Tony got really emotional over the fact that he couldn't clearly and rationally define his own emotions. He's logical and methodical, sure, but not necessarily in ways that are obvious or reasonable from an outside perspective. Undoubtedly, his current treatment of Antimony is perfectly logical in his own mind, and he's carried out his actions in a calculated and methodical way. He's been planning something in regard to his daughter since at least "Microsat 5" and this is just the next step. |
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Post by youwiththeface on May 7, 2015 23:45:32 GMT
Yeah, I refuse to hate Anthony, not because I in any way approve of what he's being depicted as doing, but because it's reached the point where I feel Tom is rubbing my face in it: "Hate this man! See how horrible and mean he is to your beloved protagonist!" I would really appreciate at this point some indication of what Anthony is actually thinking or hoping to achieve. Even just show him talking to someone, anyone, without Annie being present. There's a reason why I personally can't hate Anthony, despite acknowledging that what he did to Annie was terrible. Imagine that instead of being a fire elemental, Annie had cancer. And Tony was a medical doctor, and his wife already died because he couldn't do anything to save her. Why is there no sympathy for his position? Of course, Annie's ailment is also an essential part of who she is, but to him - it's a deadly disease. Look, what Annie has is not Cancer. If you could compare it to any disease you could compare it to a deadly venereal one, seeing as how Annie's affliction would kill her the same way. Just teach her about birth control and/or offer to help her get on the pill or get an IUD when she starts dating; problem solved, right there. No creepy haircuts, clothes or isolation required. |
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Post by nero on May 7, 2015 23:48:28 GMT
Punching Anthony isn't right. But someone needs to talk to him so that he learns that he's not going about this the right way. This isn't how you behave towards your daughter.
Parents aren't always perfect, but they need to try to understand their children. We don't know his reasons, and we can't even be sure that this is really Anthony.
You need to provide financial and emotion support to children. Annie's shaky behavior isn't acceptable to me. He needs to be made aware that he's causing it and go about (re)creating that bond with his daughter.
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Post by todd on May 8, 2015 0:16:16 GMT
Frankly, the best way to keep children safe would be to keep them as far as possible away from this whacko, dangerous, non-law-based place. (I always think the same thing about Hogwarts/"The Wizarding World." Even at best it's full of horrifying practices such as the only criminal punishment being to torture people into insanity at Azkaban, the oppression of the Goblins and House Elves, constant bullying and abuse by both students and teachers at the one available school, and just general ongoing danger at ever turn.) . There are hints at the end of the Harry Potter series that the wizarding world in Britain, after Voldemort's defeat, started making changes for the better - recognizing, perhaps, that all those abuses of power helped create the kind of environment out of which Voldemort and his Death Eaters could arise - taking the darker side of the wizarding world to its logical extention. But I think that you make all too good a point about Gunnerkrigg - it's increasingly looking like the kind of school I would not want to send my children to - which makes me wonder why kindly, reasonable parents like Mr. and Mrs. Donlan would want Kat to attend it. Maybe a failure to see its dark underbelly - or falling victim to the temptations of knowledge - or a belief that Kat's super-scence skills would make her seem like a freak at a regular school. I'll admit that the ending I'd like to see for "Gunnerkrigg Court" would be the Court at last realizing all this, shutting down the place and letting the forest reclaim it, moving back to the regular world and turning its studies to regular science rather than etheric science. (Though I doubt Tom will follow that approach, since much of the tone of the comic, particularly the Treatises, suggest a reconciliation between the worlds represented by the Court and the Wood.) |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on May 8, 2015 2:11:18 GMT
I'm intrigued by your perception of this story element, honestly. If Tom wrote Anthony to be an antagonist, why would that character acting in antagonistic ways result in you losing respect for the author? I've got nothing against you or your opinion, I'm just curious about how you got to it. A lot of readers have reacted to Anthony causing trouble for Annie by being mad at Anthony. You're holding very firm to Anthony's previous actions as being reasonable in context, and now that they're starting to push the line of acceptability for you, it sounds like it's impacting your opinion of the writing itself, not the character. As for Anthony -- he's a completely different person once you got to know him. Tony got really emotional over the fact that he couldn't clearly and rationally define his own emotions. He's logical and methodical, sure, but not necessarily in ways that are obvious or reasonable from an outside perspective. Undoubtedly, his current treatment of Antimony is perfectly logical in his own mind, and he's carried out his actions in a calculated and methodical way. He's been planning something in regard to his daughter since at least "Microsat 5" and this is just the next step. Evil/bad characters are what they are. I won't call shenanigans on Bob Kane for writing Joker. But I don't abide by stringing people along. If Anthony is evil then he bloody well needs to start acting like it. None of this pansy ass shit that can go either way. Like forcing her to quit her job as the Forest Medium. Coyote is like, the worst boss ever. Of all time. He's the Sarge to Annie's Grif. Ysengrin is Simmons. You can't point me at that and tell me it's the work of an abuser. And if he's not evil, then what's all this nonsense about? I lost any respect I ever had for Masashi Kishimoto long ago, but I still read Naruto through to the end because at least Naruto was going someone, if only down down down. Hurray for the Sunk Cost Fallacy! And Kishimoto is a hack. I expect better from Tom. What's the point is what I'm saying. |
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Post by TBeholder on May 8, 2015 4:38:00 GMT
The best comment on the current page:
Bird of Prey
Tom, you could have expanded this scene over all three strips of a week, you know? ...TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAPTAP TAP TAP TAP...
6 May 2015 | 9:18 AM
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Post by Chancellor on May 8, 2015 5:28:56 GMT
I'm intrigued by your perception of this story element, honestly. If Tom wrote Anthony to be an antagonist, why would that character acting in antagonistic ways result in you losing respect for the author? I've got nothing against you or your opinion, I'm just curious about how you got to it. A lot of readers have reacted to Anthony causing trouble for Annie by being mad at Anthony. You're holding very firm to Anthony's previous actions as being reasonable in context, and now that they're starting to push the line of acceptability for you, it sounds like it's impacting your opinion of the writing itself, not the character. As for Anthony -- he's a completely different person once you got to know him. Tony got really emotional over the fact that he couldn't clearly and rationally define his own emotions. He's logical and methodical, sure, but not necessarily in ways that are obvious or reasonable from an outside perspective. Undoubtedly, his current treatment of Antimony is perfectly logical in his own mind, and he's carried out his actions in a calculated and methodical way. He's been planning something in regard to his daughter since at least "Microsat 5" and this is just the next step. Evil/bad characters are what they are. I won't call shenanigans on Bob Kane for writing Joker. But I don't abide by stringing people along. If Anthony is evil then he bloody well needs to start acting like it. None of this pansy ass shit that can go either way. Like forcing her to quit her job as the Forest Medium. Coyote is like, the worst boss ever. Of all time. He's the Sarge to Annie's Grif. Ysengrin is Simmons. You can't point me at that and tell me it's the work of an abuser. And if he's not evil, then what's all this nonsense about? I lost any respect I ever had for Masashi Kishimoto long ago, but I still read Naruto through to the end because at least Naruto was going someone, if only down down down. Hurray for the Sunk Cost Fallacy! And Kishimoto is a hack. I expect better from Tom. What's the point is what I'm saying. What are you talking about? |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on May 8, 2015 5:33:19 GMT
What are you talking about? I'm doing this new thing they have now called "responding to other people's comments". Maybe you've heard of it. It's why I'm making use of this fancy quote option. Like so: I know this is just an example, but thank you all the same.  |
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Post by feraldog on May 8, 2015 6:45:34 GMT
He abandoned her for years - this, for me, is the worst of all. To abandon your child when her mother has died and leave her alone to fend for herself, in a strange place? That's terrible, but understandable under the circumstances. She was also the reason why Surma died. He would be terribly conflicted. On the other hand, what were the consequences of this? She lived among her parents' friends and had everything provided for her.Just guessing here: Your home has never been the dumping grounds for a useless parent like this guy. |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on May 8, 2015 6:52:31 GMT
She's provided an education and free room and board, which Anthony paid for. It's hardly a dumping ground.
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Post by Vilthuril on May 8, 2015 7:20:42 GMT
There are hints at the end of the Harry Potter series that the wizarding world in Britain, after Voldemort's defeat, started making changes for the better - recognizing, perhaps, that all those abuses of power helped create the kind of environment out of which Voldemort and his Death Eaters could arise - taking the darker side of the wizarding world to its logical extention. .... I'll admit that the ending I'd like to see for "Gunnerkrigg Court" would be the Court at last realizing all this, shutting down the place and letting the forest reclaim it, moving back to the regular world and turning its studies to regular science rather than etheric science. (Though I doubt Tom will follow that approach, since much of the tone of the comic, particularly the Treatises, suggest a reconciliation between the worlds represented by the Court and the Wood.) I would hope for the Court and Wood to reconcile, as you mention, but in any case for both sides to stop being run by nasty, unpredictable, egotistical, manipulative loonies. (Yes, I'm looking at you Coyote, and you Headmaster!) *grin* I would also hope that whatever The Revolution or other impetus for the change looks like, it involves a lot more dancing and a lot less slaughtering everyone in sight.  I still suspect it is going to require a lot of sneaking, though. |
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Anyway, a jerk was also a child sometime. Now, be it said, understanding (or for that matter not understanding yet) why someone is the way they are and not wanting them hurt, any more than necessary, doesn't mean ignoring the damage they cause or not trying to stop them. 
I still suspect it is going to require a lot of sneaking, though.