|
|
Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 28, 2015 1:22:51 GMT
I hope that Mr. Carver isn't too attached to the idea of sitting down. I have a feeling just about every conceivable surface will soon be copiously tack'd with the intent of wreaking wrath on his backside. They are out of that age. Are they? In my experience teens are much more inclined to pranks and/or rebellion than younger kids. Maybe they've outgrown of tacks on chairs*, but probably not other acts of displeasure. Not that this class in particular will necessarily engage in such activities - they are a pretty well behaved lot. *Though kids/teens in general have outgrown tacks on chairs, seems to be a prior generational thing. Sorry, for once, I didn't read all the topic (and it was just 3 pages but I'm in a rush right now) so I don't know if someone else said it already, but I want to call it now : next page (bonus' one), we'll see Anthony struggling to keep the tears inside, with flashbacks of Surma and little Annie, and then, he put THE MASK ON. Last frame, good ol'emotionless Tony with severe eyebrows. Nope. Nope. Stop. This chapter better have one heck of a Mort Fun Time as the bonus! D: Or something tree-related... But Mort's gone... so Mort's Fun Time will just be an empty room, where Mort and Annie once were. For some reason I think, if there's going to be a lighthearted page, it'll feature the Friends-bots. |
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Apr 28, 2015 2:07:59 GMT
But because the only judgment that matters is Annie's. She is the one who must decide how to cope with this, and how she and her Father will get along in the future. True, but then we aren't vulcans, nor do we have the training that allows us to repress our emotions. Even if it's bad to let one's anger grow violently out of control, it's arguably unsettling if one doesn't let some anger out when seeing a good person being put through rough times, especially if done by a family. Heck, one could argue that to much repressive results in a person expressing that anger in a more dangerous fashion. Which I argue is a better course of action for the time being, but it may help that for the characters, this event has occurred within a single 24 hours, thus while there is obviously some less than pleasant feelings, it might take a while before anyone feels up to giving Tony a chew out. But the readers have been keeping up with this for nearly a couple of months now, so there's more time for the anger towards Tony to settle in. Heck, as it's been argued, anyone newcomers reading this later when more chapters following are out might feel more of a sense of excitement and suspense rather than anger since they aren't waiting to the same degree we are right now. |
|
guyy
Full Member
Posts: 113
|
Post by guyy on Apr 28, 2015 2:25:34 GMT
I've re-read the entire story several times while grappling with this chapter, and it crystal clear that Tom has been building to this from the very start. Two main themes come out again and again: First, Annie sees beings of frightening power and aspect, but always treats them with respect and kindness, and usually ends by turning them into allies. Second, Annie and the other students of the Court tend to be somewhat disrespectful of authority, willing and able to evade it when they want to. And in general, the Court tends to work around this, almost as if these little independence-building excursions were, in the end, treated as if they were part of the curriculum. Almost as if Annie has been trained to be able to recover from this blow and make it a triumph. I hope you're right. But, to me, the way this chapter ended doesn't suggest any sort of path to recovery, or that fighting back is even possible. It seems like this is the way it's going to be now, we're just starting over. There have been unexpected setbacks before; probably the biggest one was Annie not becoming the Court's medium. But almost immediately, she got sent on a new path as the Forest's medium, so it was clear that things would work out. That's not that case here. No one in-story has even hinted at a way out of this situation. Annie's made herself a detached robot, Reynard is trapped in doll form, and Kat has apparently decided to just be supportive. I don't know how to feel about this, other than hopeless. |
|
lit
Full Member
Posts: 201
|
Post by lit on Apr 28, 2015 2:39:11 GMT
As far as the title goes, at first I was resistant to the idea that the idiom "The apple doesn't fall from the tree" could or should be applied to Annie's relationship with her father, but by the end of the chapter I'm drawing several similarities between Antimony and Anthony that weren't there before. Though there were hints earlier in the chapter, this page in particular was what awoke me to it. I think others on the form commented as well the visual similarities between Annie in panel seven and young Tony in this chapter and a little in Ties as well. We've seen the way they both clench their fists when their under stress in an attempt to maintain stoic facade. It seems Annie was more like Tony when she started at school, and became her own, happier person, once she was removed from his influence. Now that he's back in her life, the similarities between them have rapidly returned. It made me wonder if there was an authority figure in Tony's life whose approval and regard he was trying to win, that was causing him a lot of stress and pain the way Tony does for Annie. I wonder if Tony spent a lot of time dissociating, if he was made to feel he didn't deserve have fun socializing with his peers. In Donny's recounting, he doesn't really go into it. At least, as a child, Tony had a friend, someone who understood him, and they communicated with one another using secret codes. This seems like a direct parallel to Kat, who sets up a secret way to communicate with Annie, who still loves and believes and is willing to try and understand Annie, in spite of how frustrating and strange and cold she's becoming, in spite of her repulsive silencing of Renard, and her plans to give him up to her father. I hope that, with Kat's help, she'll be able to overcome this! |
|
|
|
Post by Corvo on Apr 28, 2015 2:51:52 GMT
Calling it now: There will be a time leap! The next chapter starts a few years into the future.
|
|
|
|
Post by calpal on Apr 28, 2015 3:00:04 GMT
Okay, so anyone else getting a major sense of plot whiplash? All of that just happens, and then... scene? SCENE?!
|
|
|
|
Post by atteSmythe on Apr 28, 2015 4:36:54 GMT
Calling it now: There will be a time leap! The next chapter starts a few years into the future. Oh no no no... Time leaps almost always lose me. I hadn't even considered that :/ |
|
|
|
Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Apr 28, 2015 4:48:53 GMT
Calling it now: There will be a time leap! The next chapter starts a few years into the future. Oh no no no... Time leaps almost always lose me. I hadn't even considered that :/ It's just a jump to the left! ....no, wait, that's a time warp, not leap. |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 28, 2015 4:57:09 GMT
Okay, so anyone else getting a major sense of plot whiplash? All of that just happens, and then... scene? SCENE?! The whiplash is over. This is as a good place for a cut as any, to go along with Annie moving to new quarters. I don't think it's the end of the arc, though. I don't want to speculate on where the next chapter will be set, but at the very least, we shouldn't jump past Annie binding Renard over to Anthony, if she does. (I don't think Kat will let that happen. Friends don't let friends enslave each other.) I'm kinda hoping that we fade in not much later than Kat directing the robots to help Annie settle in. I want to see Annie and Kat say good bye. (If they do. What I really want to see is Kat staying overnight so Annie doesn't wake up alone the next morning.) |
|
|
|
Post by atteSmythe on Apr 28, 2015 5:23:50 GMT
Oh no no no... Time leaps almost always lose me. I hadn't even considered that :/ It's just a jump to the left! ....no, wait, that's a time warp, not leap. Striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home… Nope, sorry, that was Quantum Leap, not time... |
|
ozie
New Member
Posts: 4 
|
Post by ozie on Apr 28, 2015 6:01:52 GMT
Hello, I've been reading Gunnerkrigg for a long, long time. (Chapter 7? Chapter 8? It's a little fuzzy.) I read the discussions here pretty often because you guys provide great analysis, but I've never made an account to post. I recently made an account so that I could join in this collective moment of grief. I cry with you. O water, voice of my heart, crying in the sand, All night long crying with a mournful cry, As I lie and listen, and cannot understand The voice of my heart in my side or the voice of the sea, O water, crying for rest, is it I, is it I? All night long the water is crying to me. Hopefully soon we will be given a rest from these pages. My hope lies in Coyote. I would like him to demand Annie be allowed to continue serving as the forest medium, and to wake her from this languor on her next visit. |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 28, 2015 6:44:56 GMT
Hopefully soon we will be given a rest from these pages. My hope lies in Coyote. My hope lies in...the onsen!Everyone relaxes in the onsen!Although not Renard. Renard would just mildew. |
|
|
|
Post by tungjii on Apr 28, 2015 7:40:26 GMT
i'm wondering about whether reynardine could actually become the property of annie's dad:
1. annie controls reynard because his spirit is housed in a doll that she owns. her ownership of the doll is what grants her control over reynard.
2. in order for annie's father to control reynard, he would have to gain ownership of the doll.
3. annie's father ordered annie to give him the doll.
4. a "gift" can only transfer property rights if it is ACTUALLY a gift; the gifter must have a choice. if annie's father says "give me the doll," but annie has no real choice but to give it to him, that is not a gift. that's just theft.
5. theft does not invest the thief with property rights in the stolen item. property rights are retained by the true owner, despite the stolen item no longer being in her physical possession.
6. annie's father stole reynard from annie, because she had no choice but to give him the doll.
7. annie's father will be unable to control reynardine, because he maintains no property interest in the doll.
|
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 28, 2015 7:47:53 GMT
i'm wondering about whether reynardine could actually become the property of annie's dad: 1. annie controls reynard because his spirit is housed in a doll that she owns. her ownership of the doll is what grants her control over reynard. Not only that, but the doll has Antimony's symbol on its forehead. I know that Annie has delegated authority to Kat before, but I think Annie could have taken him back at any time. Rather than counting on magical loopholes, though, I expect that when the time comes, Annie will refuse. That's what would make all this worthwhile to me, that Annie manages to free herself from her Father. === Some thing else occurred to me: Anthony has forbidden Annie to wear make up in his class. But she's not in his class anymore. If she wants to wear it, she can and will. I kinda hope she chooses her own colors, though. |
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Apr 28, 2015 9:52:05 GMT
The difference is that Annie then a) didn't have her father watching over her, making certain that she'd spend all her time studying to make up for all that cheating and b) wasn't sunk into a passive, submissive gloom. I think that Anthony's going to make it clear that there will be no more adventures for Antimony (as part of the distractions that he's getting rid of) and has the means to enforce it (I doubt that his security measures will be as weak as those that the Court employs). And in her present state, if Annie noticed she'd sprouted an extra shadow or something like that, she'd hardly be in the emotional condition to try communicating with it. I think that's silly. For one, we can't know how much freedom if any Tony is going to allow Antimony outside of studying, so there's no use throwing up our hands and saying 'nothing will ever happen again'. For another, even if things don't happen the same way that doesn't mean they can't still happen. After all, while Annie investigated her second shadow on her own, Mort introduced himself to her, and the robots have made it their mission on more than one occasion to mess with our heroes and their friends of their own volition. Even if Annie doesn't go looking for trouble anymore (which we can't know as of yet) that doesn't mean trouble won't find her. Besides, Kat gave Annie that radio, and Annie said she could hide it which suggests she's planning on hanging onto it for as long as she can. So it's not like she and Kat won't be able to talk at least. And actually, now that I think about it, who couldn't Anthony keep away no matter how he tried? Why, Surma's old friends, the psychopomps. Given how invested they were in Annie joining their club, or at least doing something to help Jeanne, I can't imagine they'd be too happy about this development. And I doubt Anthony has a power so great it can keep those guys from showing up when they want to. I'd be very surprised if Annie, wherever she's heading, doesn't have a visit from Ankou or Muut or someone else in her future. I also find it a little silly that people are saying Annie's character development has been deleted. Come on, it's not like all the cool things she ever did have been erased through time travel or something. I think of it more as a relapse than anything, and I don't doubt all the ground Annie's gained is still inside her, waiting to be unlocked again, even after Tony threw it in a closet, locked said closet, than stuck an armoire in front of it. The only question is how to do that, and how long will it take. |
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 28, 2015 11:55:15 GMT
Kat's slower supportive approach makes more sense when we consider what she knows instead of what we, the readers, think we know.
1. At the end of Divine, both Kat and Annie thought the events in that chapter were just dreams. Some readers interpret the bone lasers as a real attempt by Anthony to excise the fire elemental from Annie (thus saving her from her mother's fate). Even if that is correct, Kat wouldn't come to that conclusion because it was just a weird dream to her.
2. From Kat's perspective, Reynard may just be facing another form of imprisonment. The Court imprisoned Reynard before and didn't destroy him. Kat is horrified that Annie would give Reynard to Anthony, but Kat has no reason to fear for Reynard's existence.
3. Annie silenced Reynard after he made a fuss. I think Kat realized that making a fuss was not going to be helpful and backed down to the slower supportive approach. Kat has no reason to believe that Annie and Reynard are in immediate danger, so a more patient approach appears to be a viable option.
I am anxious because I believe Anthony is more of an immediate threat to Annie and Reynard than Kat understands. But I am starting to think that Tom intentionally set up this difference in threat perceptions between the readers and the characters.
|
|
|
|
Post by arf on Apr 28, 2015 12:21:06 GMT
Back into speculation territory - since there's been thoughts about where "The Tree" from the title page comes in, there's always this:  The tree is isolated to remove all contamination. That is a good catch, and fits the situation far better than the apple not falling far from the tree. |
|
|
|
Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Apr 28, 2015 12:45:27 GMT
It's just a jump to the left! ....no, wait, that's a time warp, not leap. Striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home… Nope, sorry, that was Quantum Leap, not time... Two American scientists are lost in the swirling maze of past and future ages, during the first experiments on America's greatest and most secret project... No, wait, wrong again, that one's The Time Tunnel, not the time jump. (Though it was called Project Tic-Toc, hmm.....) |
|
Miri
Full Member
Posts: 211
|
Post by Miri on Apr 28, 2015 14:36:19 GMT
ALRIGHT. I found a hope to cling to. So we've had a total visual reversion to young Antimony under Anthony's care. But you know what else was allowed under Anthony's care? Karate. Or some form of martial art. So Anthony may, may, have also equipped his daughter with the means to fight back. Against something, at least. Also, the Tommentary under the next page ("She doesn't remember much else from that day.") suddenly feels like it might...mean something. Move those straws closer so I can keep grasping at them, yeah? |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 28, 2015 15:44:39 GMT
Kat's slower supportive approach makes more sense when we consider what she knows instead of what we, the readers, think we know. ... 3. Annie silenced Reynard after he made a fuss. I think Kat realized that making a fuss was not going to be helpful and backed down to the slower supportive approach. Kat has no reason to believe that Annie and Reynard are in immediate danger, so a more patient approach appears to be a viable option. All of it, but especially this.
ALRIGHT. I found a hope to cling to. So we've had a total visual reversion to young Antimony under Anthony's care. But you know what else was allowed under Anthony's care? Karate. Or some form of martial art. So Anthony may, may, have also equipped his daughter with the means to fight back. Against something, at least. Also, the Tommentary under the next page ("She doesn't remember much else from that day.") suddenly feels like it might...mean something. Move those straws closer so I can keep grasping at them, yeah? I'll even throw another handful at you: Now that you've pointed this out, and thanks for that, I believe the dojo sequence stands in for a great deal else. Annie's Father may not have been the emotionally available father that's ever been, but I expect he valued individual strength, and tried to give his child the tools for independence. Doesn't necessarily excuse disappearing for a couple-three years, though. [Also, for a few minutes I was completely stumped as to how you were reading the Tommentary under the page that will come out tonight. What, it's some Patreon thing? Then I realized it was under the dojo page. Duh.] |
|
|
|
Post by gillyc on Apr 28, 2015 16:50:40 GMT
On the last Treatise, if you look closely, the symbol on Reynardine's head doesn't look like Antimony's. It looks more like the mercury one that is his own symbol. (It's a bit blurry when you zoom in, but that's what it looks like to me.) www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1452I'm pretty sure those were the 'bone lasers' we saw when Kat challenged Annie about giving Reynard to her father, and I think they appeared because Annie was actually considering what Kat had said - her father took control to stop her even thinking about it. (I think that when that happens, it's not clear to her what's going on - she probably just feels really confused. Hence the 'trying not to break down' speech.) Which leads me to think that, when she actually has to hand him over, she'll have second thoughts again, and attempt to refuse. At that point, Anthony will force her, the same way. And because he's forced her, it won't count, and as lots of people have pointed out, that will break the contract, and Reynard will be free. |
|
|
|
Post by gillyc on Apr 28, 2015 17:01:04 GMT
actually I'm really not sure about what I said about the treatise; I might be wrong. But if it's not his own symbol, then it's still antimony's. And I'm the rest of it still seems right - I don't think it's any coincidence that we saw the 'bone lasers' when Antimony was trying to talk about Rey.
|
|
|
|
Post by Purgatorius on Apr 28, 2015 18:18:28 GMT
|
|
Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
|
Post by Sadie on Apr 28, 2015 18:27:42 GMT
Back into speculation territory - since there's been thoughts about where "The Tree" from the title page comes in, there's always this: The tree is isolated to remove all contamination. That is a good catch, and fits the situation far better than the apple not falling far from the tree. Thanks! We'll have to see if it actually bears fruit though, hurrhurr. |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 28, 2015 18:27:57 GMT
Which leads me to think that, when she actually has to hand him over, she'll have second thoughts again, and attempt to refuse. At that point, Anthony will force her, the same way. And because he's forced her, it won't count, and as lots of people have pointed out, that will break the contract, and Reynard will be free. Welcome to the forum! Symbol or not, I generally agree with you, even if the "bone lasers" are not present when Annie tries to talk about Renard. I've seen the like before, in the works of other artists, to indicate severe cognitive distress in a character. I believe that what happened with her Father was so painful to Annie that she was simply incapable of thinking about it, or at all facing the consequences of her actions. One of Kat's graces here is that she has not only provided Annie with enough slack to breath, but is going with her so that if there is an immediate confrontation with Anthony over Renard, Kat will be able to intervene, especially if the robots she's called to help move are present. I doubt that outside the classroom, she will feel that Mr. Carver has much if any authority over her at all. And yes, folks, if Anthony tries to take Renard, or to inflict any further grief on Annie, I fully expect Kat to bring down fire and terror on his head, and he will have no sympathy from me whatsoever. I sing the praises of Kat, the Robot's Angel, and Annie's Guardian Angel, as well. |
|
|
|
Post by gillyc on Apr 28, 2015 21:54:09 GMT
Thanks for the welcome, Refugee! We'll have to agree to disagree, I think, on the 'bone lasers'; however, I completely agree with you on the awesomeness of Kat the Angel.
|
|
|
|
Post by inkwell on Apr 29, 2015 18:46:37 GMT
Hi! Reader of about two years making an account for the first time. Why? To comment on this chapter. I, too, am on the "disappointed with Gunnerkrigg Court" train and no longer enjoy it, and it's more than "Oh no, the comic made a sad!". The problem I have with the way this is being handled is the combination of subject and format. Parental abuse is a horrible, horrible thing that hits far too close to home. Combined with the story being in the form of a webcomic that updates relatively slowly, this creates an awful negative tension. For months I just get to watch someone be a victim of parental abuse with no resolution. With consideration for the format Tom could have at least given Annie *something* to work with to make this more bearable, but her will has been completely crushed and she's losing Reynardine. It's all too close to reality and being close to reality is really bad when the subject is parental abuse. Parental abuse just ruins lives and it's actually painful to watch my favorite webcomic spend months with parental abuse dominating the main character. If GK were, say, a book, it would be better because one could get resolution to the parental abuse relatively quickly - as it is, this is the wrong kind of negative emotion to be eliciting for months, and I actively dislike reading the comic now. I'm totally with autumn on this one. It's even more than that for me in that this chapter strikes me as being tonedeaf. Not only does Tony "put Annie in her place" by telling her to remove her makeup in a move that eventually leads to her feeling stripped of all of her female empowerment (see the reversion of all of her physical changes to simpler, less provocative ones), but Tom plays the abusive parent card and has Tony strip all of Annie's agency in a cruel, senseless, self-absorbed "reminder" of who is really in charge. The worst part is that there was no sense of anticipation regarding this; there was no build-up or foreshadowing that I could see. This came out of left field and has every marking of a ploy for cheap drama, which is something that should never be done with topics where many people have had to deal with very real trauma. All in all, I was very, very disappointed with this chapter and hope that there is some meaningful lead toward a reversal next chapter. |
|
