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Post by Goatmon on Apr 20, 2015 9:14:07 GMT
Holy crap I think I was right about the mind control. Notice that her hair gets messy and frayed like it did when she was talking to Tony. This would be an extremely stupid move if it were true, and it would cheapen everything that's happening here. Annie having difficulty accepting her father's abusive behavior? Annie reverting to denial as a coping mechanism because it's easier than facing the truth? Suppressing her feelings because she's shti at dealing with them, and because she's terrified of disobeying her Dad because she has difficulty seeing him as a flawed human being with very real problems that she shouldn't let slide? NOPE MIND CONTROL It more or less reduces all of Annie's very believable emotional problems to a plot device that can be fought and defeated to save the day. Which would be an extremely lousy way to deal with these issues that have been ongoing and unresolved for pretty much the entire comic. Every time her family gets brought up, she's changed the subject. Every time she couldn't just wave the subject away, things got very difficult for her. (Fire Spike, Microsat 5, etc) And now it's all come down on her at once, on top of the consquences for her shitty school habits, and so she's handling it extremely badly and has more or less emotionally retreated as a defense mehanism. Let's not forget that this was more or less how she acted for a major length of the series, before she met Coyote and started learning about her powers and began to open up more as a person. This isn't out of character, because this was originally her default behavior. She's just being unusually childish because she doesn't know how else to deal. If this turns out to be Anthony just being an evil dickbag using mind control to get what he wants, like some kind of contrived supervillain, I will be pretty disappointed. |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Apr 20, 2015 9:29:06 GMT
So much anxiety on this page. She fully believes she has no options available to her.
Its comforting to know that she doesn't actually agree with her father, but damn it I know that feeling of powerlessness too well.
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Post by aline on Apr 20, 2015 9:45:11 GMT
Holy crap I think I was right about the mind control. Notice that her hair gets messy and frayed like it did when she was talking to Tony. This would be an extremely stupid move if it were true, and it would cheapen everything that's happening here. Annie having difficulty accepting her father's abusive behavior? Annie reverting to denial as a coping mechanism because it's easier than facing the truth? Suppressing her feelings because she's shti at dealing with them, and because she's terrified of disobeying her Dad because she has difficulty seeing him as a flawed human being with very real problems that she shouldn't let slide? NOPE MIND CONTROL It more or less reduces all of Annie's very believable emotional problems to a plot device that can be fought and defeated to save the day.
You're forgetting that in GC, feelings, psychology, personality, all of that is mixed to magic to the point that it can't be separated.
Look at Jeanne: there is a device trapping her to the Annan waters, but her love and her pain are both intense and real. In fact, it's a part of her cage, and the Court used those feelings to make her their guardian.
In Annie's case, her feelings are real too, and I'm sure they will be adressed. But her behavior right now? I don't find it believable. I don't find it logical. I don't buy, not unless there's something that's somehow amplifying her reactions or preventing her to fight back against some of her feelings. Either it's mind control or similar, or she's been suddenly struck with schyzophrenia (not going to happen). If nothing comes up to explain that behavior beyond what we already know... I'll be the one to be very disappointed.
Nope. She's never treated Rey (or anyone) this way. She protected him and treated him like a person (chapter 6). She's never really been unable to share her feelings, she just had very few people she was comfortable doing it with. Shortly after she became friend with Kat, she cried about her mum and talked about her father and her worries (chapter 6). Coyote came along a long time after that. She didn't brush away the subject of her parents, she was rather curious to learn things she didn't know about most of the time. She would suppress feelings most of the time, yes, but like a normal person who doesn't like to cry in front of other people. Not like a mad girl about to be taken to the mental hospital. I'm sorry, I've tried hard to talk myself into believing this makes sense by itself but this page broke it for me. Sure, her feelings and personality play a part in that, but it's not enough to explain wat is going on here. There's got to be something else. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 20, 2015 9:49:00 GMT
Her face looks so much like Anthony's in the penultimate frame.  Indeed, she's pulling the Carver smooth operator style like a champ, bangs and all. Da' is so proud, he could blink. That made me laugh. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 20, 2015 11:03:12 GMT
Oh man, that mask is tough but it isn't invincible! HIT 'ER AGAIN, KATERINA! Dare to be foolish, Annie! Dare to be foolish! |
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
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Post by madragoran on Apr 20, 2015 11:10:38 GMT
So much anxiety on this page. She fully believes she has no options available to her. Its comforting to know that she doesn't actually agree with her father, but damn it I know that feeling of powerlessness too well. We're never powerless. We need only take one step. and then another step. and keep walking! *starts a hug cirlce  |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 20, 2015 11:29:00 GMT
I've had to do this myself so many times. I've been told by maybe two counsellors/psychologists at various times, essentially, "Whenever people do scummy things, if you can't handle it/beat it then just ignore it/pretend it isn't happening." Sometimes, indeed and as you say, that is what I end up doing! Still, I don't like it as an operating philosophy and those are the counsellors I don't go back and see again.  (Anxiety? As the old joke goes, "I have no problem with anxiety; how much do you need?" I have plenty to go around!  ) |
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Post by sleepcircle on Apr 20, 2015 11:36:22 GMT
I'm sorry, I've tried hard to talk myself into believing this makes sense by itself but this page broke it for me. Sure, her feelings and personality play a part in that, but it's not enough to explain wat is going on here. There's got to be something else. When you said a mad girl about to be taken to a mental hospital I think you missed the possibility that that is how emotionally compromised she is. I've been there myself; I think I actually did the exact same thing she did in this page, once or twice. EDIT: I should clarify, I am not saying there ISN'T mind control or something else going on here—nor am I saying that there IS. I am just saying that this type of behaviour is possible without someone flipping a switch in your head. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 20, 2015 12:00:20 GMT
I'm sorry, I've tried hard to talk myself into believing this makes sense by itself but this page broke it for me. Sure, her feelings and personality play a part in that, but it's not enough to explain wat is going on here. There's got to be something else. When you said a mad girl about to be taken to a mental hospital I think you missed the possibility that that is how emotionally compromised she is. I've been there myself; I think I actually did the exact same thing she did in this page, once or twice. EDIT: I should clarify, I am not saying there ISN'T mind control or something else going on here—nor am I saying that there IS. I am just saying that this type of behaviour is possible without someone flipping a switch in your head. Pulling out my Professional Opinion Card (MSW, RSW) again - which, together with $4 plus sales tax will get you a cup of coffee at the cafe of your choice - Annie's behaviour here could be completely explained by her feelings, personality, history of trauma (death, abandonment, etcetera) and what she has just been put through by her father. What she is doing is very true to life - and kudos to Tom on that account, be it said! Heck, she " could" even come down with schizophrenia starting around this age, since aline mentioned it, though it would be the very extreme early end of the onset range, especially for females. So, being a fan of Occam's Razor, I lean heavily toward her immediate behaviour not being caused by Anthony literally beaming in bone fingers from his moon base whenever she starts to waver, or what not. Could be, of course, this being a story and one that involves magic, but what Annie is going through is completely believable and indeed likely just through usual human processes. |
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Post by feraldog on Apr 20, 2015 12:03:23 GMT
...and if there is mind-tampering involved, it would make some interesting parallels with Ysengrin.
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 20, 2015 13:20:43 GMT
At this point I don't have any ideas that don't feel like guessing in the wind or somehow badly out of character. I'll shut up till Wednesday gives us some answers.
I mean really, it could go any way right now.
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Post by aline on Apr 20, 2015 13:21:45 GMT
I'm sorry, I've tried hard to talk myself into believing this makes sense by itself but this page broke it for me. Sure, her feelings and personality play a part in that, but it's not enough to explain wat is going on here. There's got to be something else. When you said a mad girl about to be taken to a mental hospital I think you missed the possibility that that is how emotionally compromised she is.
Well, I'm not a doctor, so I can't rule out that chaining her close friend and lightly complaining later that he made a bit of a fuss about being handed over to the man he hates is a normal symptom of Annie having a painful father-daughter relationship. But I don't believe it.
I said before that I saw two possible explanations to this, one being that she didn't see the horror of it, and the other that she is constrained in some way despite knowing how horrible this is.
I'm sure there are a lot of ways people can go mad and many reasons why they do, but in the context of this story, I don't buy that this happens to Annie *solely* because of emotional damage. It may make sense in the real world, but not in the comic. You're free to disagree with me of course, but heck, but it's how I feel.
I do believe she's emotionally compromised. There is no way she wouldn't be. I just think there is more than just hat. The Court does have a history of using people's shattered feelings and direct them artficially to a specific purpose (That's pretty much what Jeanne's ghost is).
And Anthony is such a purposeful man. He has an aim to achieve with all this, he's not just here because he was bored and was looking forward to read some homework. I don't think he just left everything to hazardous emotional reactions. I think he set the stage he needed with this whole classroom scene, just like the Court did when they forced Jeanne to go to the Annan waters. Then he did... whatever he did, taking advantage of her weakness, pain and inner struggles.
I don't see how this scenario would mean the emotional challenges are going to be cheapened or dismissed.
While it could be the case if we were talking about a real person, it would make no sense whatsoever in the story. That was an example I gave to demonstrate why I rule out her being actually on her way to the mental hosiptal. I don't think it makes any sense in the story. |
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Shire
Junior Member
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Post by Shire on Apr 20, 2015 14:15:27 GMT
BZZT!
Paging Dr. Zimmy...
Dr. Zimmy, please report to the girl's dormitories...
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Post by pxc on Apr 20, 2015 14:22:39 GMT
Does anyone else hear the silent *scritch* after each 'I have to...'? Battling on, perhaps, but there is one damaged and bruised personality behind that mask. Given the fuss that accompanied a mere phone call from her Father, I find the current silence from the other adults rather odd. Explanations are in order. Agreed. This indicates to me that they don't know yet. I don't buy the mind control theory. At least not as some primary cause. Maybe Tony C is enhancing his control over Annie technologically or etho-technologically. But the primary comes from the apparent years of poor parenting, IMO. I'm interested in the make-up angle. And the bone lasers (I don't think I've ever said or typed "bone lasers" in my life) have to be involved. But at the core it's just the broken relationship between Annie and her father. The proof of this to me is in this very comic. A part of her is fully aware of the horror of the situation. She has acknowledged it. But she is keeping the horror at bay. She currently sees accepting and actually addressing the horror as foolish, which is her father's influence resurfacing after being dormant for a long time. It's important for Kat to keep the pressure on. That breakdown is there. Annie can either accept it, let it out, and heal from it, or she can push it back down and let it poison her from the inside. Additionally, I'm half-expecting Tony to show up and ruin everything just as Kat gets through to Annie. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 20, 2015 14:22:45 GMT
What Kat really needs is someone capable of seeing into the ether.
Unfortunately, the only other person capable of that in the room is under magical lockdown.
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Shire
Junior Member
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Post by Shire on Apr 20, 2015 14:29:34 GMT
What Kat really needs is someone capable of seeing into the ether. Unfortunately, the only other person capable of that in the room is under magical lockdown. Then it's simple! Kat must construct a robotic window device that will allow her to see into the ether! |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 20, 2015 14:31:56 GMT
If this turns out to be Anthony just being an evil dickbag using mind control to get what he wants, like some kind of contrived supervillain, I will be pretty disappointed. Like Coyote and Ysengrin? I think it's possible for there to be a mix of both and still have a compelling story. All those things about Annie's pattern of denial and her coping mechanisms can still be true. What we could be looking at is simply more overt attempts at manipulation in response to her lousy school habits. I wouldn't see that as a disappointing turn to the story. It would be an escalation. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 20, 2015 14:41:13 GMT
I may disagree but by Io I sure hope your version happens! Yes, yes. Go on Donlans! Well we know JimyJims was willing to face down the physical danger of a lunatic wolf-demigod to protect her, on a moment's notice (it's not like he had advance warning of when she'd snap that stick to summon him*). And he hates Tony's guts. So he'd certainly be willing to fight on her behalf, but we don't know if he has any legal authority to do anything... So a likely scenario might be where everyone tries to fight for Annie, but they can't actually make any difference (beyond emotional support, of course, which is major). *Fridge Question: why was he wearing armor at that exact moment, then? It was at least several hours since Annie left him and entered the Forest. Actually, he and the Donlans are really into doing fantasy cosplay, so he never took it off. He got there so quickly, because they were posing for pictures by the Forest. |
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Post by fwip on Apr 20, 2015 15:26:03 GMT
Maybe this was the real reason she told Rey to be quiet. Maybe he was getting through to her the way Kat did (if only briefly so far) on this page and that was too dangerous for whatever's got a hold of her. And if there is something ethereal going on, maybe Rey would know what it was and could tell Kat, if he could just be allowed to talk again. If Rey knows what's going on, and knows that it was an outside influence that controlled Annie to give that order, would the order still be binding? How about if he doesn't know what's going on? |
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Post by hypixion on Apr 20, 2015 15:28:38 GMT
Will zimmy come to her aid once again? I don't what to think, is it just metaphor, something anthony is doing or a reflection of Annie's feeling in the ether?
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Post by juxander on Apr 20, 2015 16:03:55 GMT
It occurs to me that Mr. Carver's lost or damaged hand may be linked to the bonelasers/fingers/whatever from Divine. I would guess that the equipment Mr. Donlan sent to him was used to turn his hand into an etheric device useful for manipulating Antimony. That, or he was using his original hand for it (there were five bonelasers, suggesting fingers) and had to replace it after Zimmy's interference. Note that Mr. Carver's odd hand is his right one, which is not shown on page 1044 when Zimmy demonstrates her talent for percussive conflict resolution. I would think this would be because it was being used in the etheric process that created the bonelaser effect. I hadn't quite connected that previously. In the torn sea, we see that the ether can give reality to the thoughts of some people. Hypothetically, if he had been using his own hand to do etheric surgery on Annie and the link was broken, his hand would very possibly have been lost in the ether. Perhaps it is still embedded in Annie somewhere, like a lost scalpel. |
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Post by nero on Apr 20, 2015 16:38:00 GMT
Did Kat see Annie's hair get out and then get back in place?
I'm worried about that pained look in panel 3 and how 2 bone spikes look like they're in her head.
C'mon Kat get help or break Annie's mask on your own.
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Post by juxander on Apr 20, 2015 16:52:30 GMT
 More parallels... |
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Post by pxc on Apr 20, 2015 17:00:23 GMT
Did Kat see Annie's hair get out and then get back in place? I'm worried about that pained look in panel 3 and how 2 bone spikes look like they're in her head. C'mon Kat get help or break Annie's mask on your own. I hadn't even noticed that. I just sort of glossed over them, assuming it was some stylized art to indicate her mental/emotional instability. But they do look similar to the bone laser spike things. edit: And the hand motions of putting a mask back on. Similar to Divine. Does the make-up block the mask? I'd never put much stock into the idea that the make-up is somehow important but maybe there's a connection there somewhere. |
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Post by The Anarch on Apr 20, 2015 17:11:54 GMT
edit: And the hand motions of putting a mask back on. Similar to Divine. Does the make-up block the mask? I'd never put much stock into the idea that the make-up is somehow important but maybe there's a connection there somewhere. we see Jones handing Annie the white mask. This would seem to correspond with the page in Annie in the Forest where Jones brings Annie her makeup. The implication would seem to be that the makeup is a sort of physical embodiment of the emotional mask that Annie wears, something tangible that she can use to help her concentrate on keeping the shields up and herself together. |
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Post by pxc on Apr 20, 2015 17:35:55 GMT
edit: And the hand motions of putting a mask back on. Similar to Divine. Does the make-up block the mask? I'd never put much stock into the idea that the make-up is somehow important but maybe there's a connection there somewhere. we see Jones handing Annie the white mask. This would seem to correspond with the page in Annie in the Forest where Jones brings Annie her makeup. The implication would seem to be that the makeup is a sort of physical embodiment of the emotional mask that Annie wears, something tangible that she can use to help her concentrate on keeping the shields up and herself together. I don't know how to untangle that then. The mask was off while she was in the forest. Naked Jones (hnng) gives her the mask, which is presumably her make-up. The mask goes on and Kamlen and the other forest folk frown and leave. It comes back off in the cherry tree scene. No chronology here. But the mask is still over the cheating homework. Zimmy takes the mask, Annie gets it back and puts it on, but inside her fire spirit is just holding it while (presumably) Tony's bone lasers do their thing. Zimmy etherically falcon punches Tony, breaking the connection, and the mask is back on. And it breaks when she gets angry. So did the mask break because she wanted to defend her father, or was that coincidental? Was it actually because Zimmy severed Tony's connection and her strength or "fight" came rushing back? I'm probably treading over ground others have already covered before but this is new to me. So the mask (embodied by or linked to her make-up) is a shield that she'll voluntarily let down when she feels safe enough to be vulnerable, but in the case of Tony, he appears to pull the mask down by force of will (or magic/etherscience?) and manipulate Annie in her state of forced vulnerability. |
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on Apr 20, 2015 17:42:08 GMT
I just had one idea(sorry if someone already wrote it)- what if Divine was somehow foreshadowing? Here are my ideas what each of it's visions meant: Kamlen and the forest- her memories about forest. We saw her turning from him- like her father now want's her to turn from forest. Jones- many people said it: get Jones to help. Perhaps Annie tried this, but it didn't really help. Mask- well, we see it. Best way Annie knows to deal with problems is to keep it to herself Kat under tree and homework- the talk we just had between them. This conversation started about copying her homework, what was such a problem for Annie that in Divine she decided to hide it with her mask. Mask taken away from her- we have it now. She lost control for a moment, but she regained her mask and put it back. Bones- well, quite obvious- reason for this all is her father's return. And this is where speculation really start. Punch in the face- perhaps Kat will play Zimmy's part, and either confront Anthony, or just say Annie what she really thinks about him. Being thrown out of Annies mind- sorry to say that, but looks like Annie will throw Kat away from her life, at least for now. Jack- looks like we will see Annie going to him for support, or maybe he will offer it himself Mask broken- apparently, he will cause her to finally lose her control, and she will break down Fight- and then Annie will be so mad she will throw him against the wall. The memory sequence of the Forest in "Divine" takes on different meaning if you've read the side comic "Annie in the Forest". In it, Kamlen is very friendly and welcoming to Annie, who feels out-of-place and uncomfortable. She thinks he's attracted to her and starts to reciprocate. However, it turns out he already has a girlfriend, who comments to Annie that his friendliness often makes girls feel that he is sweet on them. Annie is clearly embarrassed, though she recovers and is implied to have become friends with both of them.
Then (it's been a while since I read it, so I don't remember the exact sequence, but I think this happens after she learns about Kamlen's girlfriend), Jones shows up with Annie's make-up and some clothing. After putting on the make-up, Annie goes from shy, withdrawn, and vulnerable, to straight-backed and firmly spoken. Also, rather critical of how she's been treated so far -- namely, immediately expected to help with chores and not spoken to at the dinner table, instead of being welcomed as a guest.
So if you compare "Divine" to "Annie in the Forest", you get:
Annie turns away from Kamlen because she realized he wasn't into her the way she thought. She turns toward Jones, because Jones brings the 'mask' that helps her feel more secure - aka her make-up.
Continuing in "Divine", we see Annie remove the mask when crying by the cherry tree (tears washing away her make-up) and then using it to hide her cheating. She finally notices Zimmy's presence when Zimmy takes away her mask and her first reaction to having it back is to shove her face into it. The Fire Elemental in her soul continues to hold the mask even when stabbed through. Once Zimmy delivers the old right hook to Mr. Carver, Annie starts out taking control of her etheric dream world with mask firmly in place. Once it cracks and falls away, her anger lashes out and she throws Zimmy out of her head... all with eyes closed, implying she isn't fully aware of her mental acrobatics.
And lastly, as a send-off to mask/make-up connection, fully awake Annie opts to not put on the make-up on while alone with Kat.
IN SHORT -- my position is that Annie's memory sequence was more a reflection of her mental state and how she perceives her past experiences than any foreshadowing.
Except for the bone fingers and the entire presence of the mask. Those were totally foreshadowing.[/spoilers] |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 20, 2015 18:01:59 GMT
What does everyone think Kat's reaction should be to this? Press her harder or back down and see what she does next?
I really think Kat should press Annie on the Renard situation. Whatever Anthony's intentions, this isn't her call to make and Annie needs to be called on that.
Annie feels she has to. Well she needs to be reminded that she doesn't. Not with Renard. She is the sole hand on that leash and it is her responsibility to hold it well.
She needs to remember that she isn't a powerless little girl anymore with no responsibilities. And that shirking those responsibilities can be harmful to everyone around her as well as herself!
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Post by Señor Goose on Apr 20, 2015 18:06:32 GMT
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Post by Goatmon on Apr 20, 2015 18:12:26 GMT
Nope. She's never treated Rey (or anyone) this way. She protected him and treated him like a person (chapter 6). She's never really been unable to share her feelings, she just had very few people she was comfortable doing it with. Shortly after she became friend with Kat, she cried about her mum and talked about her father and her worries (chapter 6). Coyote came along a long time after that. She didn't brush away the subject of her parents, she was rather curious to learn things she didn't know about most of the time. She would suppress feelings most of the time, yes, but like a normal person who doesn't like to cry in front of other people. Not like a mad girl about to be taken to the mental hospital. Uh, she treated Rey similarly to this a number of times throughout the early chapters. There was a point where he spent half a chapter unable to speak because she made him shut up and then forgot about it. Another instance where she told him to be quiet? When he was giving her some crap about taking a photograph of other mother and father from Kat's parents. her mother and father have always been her kryptonite. It's what always pushed her over the edge and made her lose her composure. Like, learning about why her mother died is the entire reason she fled to the forest for an entire summer. She just can't handle that stuff very well. And now she can't avoid it, she can't run from it, she can't tell it to be quiet and go away. And so she's shutting down and dealing with it the only way she can. And you're overlooking that younger Annie and younger Anthony were extremely similar, and that Tom even drew parallels with the way they spoke and acted during the chapter showing Anja, James and Anthony as kids. Further, during Microsat 5 we see that, when dealing with emotions she doesn't know how to handle, Annie was behaving very similarly to Anthony as a kid when he was going through the same kind of stress. Even Coyote has mentioned that she subdues her feelings a lot more than her mother did, because of how much like her father she is. If you think Annie's being really out of character or that this behavior is out of nowhere, you're demonstrably wrong. Sorry! |
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(Anxiety? As the old joke goes, "I have no problem with anxiety; how much do you need?" I have plenty to go around! 
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