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Post by csj on Apr 15, 2015 10:43:22 GMT
Annie and Anthony are both pretty bad at the whole 'asking' thing, to be frank.  |
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Apr 15, 2015 10:57:35 GMT
Given Anthony's reaction to Antimony's cheating (and just to her make up and going to the forest) it makes sense she would be afraid to ask for help, if he was like that before, at the hospital. If every time she needs or asks for help she get's that kind of reaction, then no wonder she thought it was better to hide her weaknesses instead of address them. It would be less painful for her, anyway. Ah, Kitty Hamilton, great minds think alike. That, and children need to know that everybody's weak once in a while, and that asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. In what way? One party tries desperately to please the other, who has nothing but contempt for them? Or did you mean that the robots and Annie both can't see fault in their father figure and will see their values as superior to their own? |
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Post by machival on Apr 15, 2015 11:43:52 GMT
And on this page, Kat confirms she is awesome.
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Post by Per on Apr 15, 2015 11:48:25 GMT
"... then help me kill my father." Of course Annie is too submissive right now to even think that But for normal non-submissive people that's perfectly natural? It's not a story about drow, right? |
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Post by machival on Apr 15, 2015 11:53:17 GMT
"... then help me kill my father." Of course Annie is too submissive right now to even think that But for normal non-submissive people that's perfectly natural? It's not a story about drow, right? More people than you think reach the point of at least considering the death of at least one parent. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 15, 2015 12:33:56 GMT
But for normal non-submissive people that's perfectly natural? It's not a story about drow, right? More people than you think reach the point of at least considering the death of at least one parent. Happily, very few make an active plan, and only a tiny number carry through. When a child kills a parent it tends to be huge in the news in part because it's the "man bites dog" situation; so many many more children are killed by parents than the opposite. Still, there is a big/key difference between saying, "Oy, sometimes I could just kill (that kid/my dad)!" in a frustrated/semi-joking way, and saying, "Hey, will you help me kill (my daughter/my father)?" The latter would be quite a bit scarier/more concerning, to me. I'm totally with all the folks who have noted that Kat is wonderful here. A person who says, "If you have problems, I will help you to work them out because I care about you," rather than, "If you have problems you are embarrassing, unworthy and deserve to be punished until you shape up." Wonderful and wonderful again!  |
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Post by todd on Apr 15, 2015 12:46:37 GMT
Regarding the question of why the Court didn't bring up Antimonys cheating, I'm thinking that it may have been because they do not care. They are not a traditional educational institution where giving the students an education is the priority. The Court seems to be interested only in fostering the talents of the students. It seems the Courts official modus operandi is to turn a blind eye to problems unless someone screws up in a big way (they know, but do not act - collecting blackmail information maybe?). Other principles the Court adheres to, both also tie in to "turn a blind eye" - "sink or swim" and "you're on your own". I noted that the 14 year old students were on the reality-warping cruise ship alone without any teachers or other staff. Not really the best place to send a kid whose mother just died and she watched without being able to do anything since they lack the usual support facilities present in most educational institutions. Yes, a lot of what the Court does certainly seems strange considering what we've seen of much of the individual staff (the Donlans, Eglamore, Jones) - though much of its inactivity might also be useful for the story. (Adults on board would have hampered the plot in "The Torn Sea", for example.) And given that its agenda is apparently to fully manipulate the ether - which sounds, from what we've seen, like the kind of thing it's wiser and safer *not* to do.... I don't think that the Court should be viewed as the revival of N.I.C.E. from "That Hideous Strength" (though I do find it tempting to connect that with the Headmaster's worn-out-looking condition - the side-effect of too much contact with dark eldils?), but it has been engaged in a lot of questionable behavior, and its ends aren't much better than its means. |
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Post by kelantar on Apr 15, 2015 13:05:49 GMT
Oh, Kat... if you'll all excuse me, I have something in my eye...
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Post by sable0aria on Apr 15, 2015 14:21:06 GMT
Kat shows what an amazing person, and wonderful friend she is here. I saw that some people were worried about how she would react to Annie's cheating, but what she did here is exactly what I expected from the start. Her behavior is such a contrast to Anthony's, and to me at least really brings to light just how horribly Anthony handled the situation.
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 15, 2015 14:22:01 GMT
Evidence for my "Kat is emotionally stronger than Annie" theory continues to gather at an alarming rate. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 15, 2015 14:35:47 GMT
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 15, 2015 14:41:31 GMT
Speaking of Smitty, do you think he could save the day? He could probably solve the forest problem simply by being present at such a meeting. Probably the only person in the multiverse that can make politics go smoothly. Granted, we don't know what his power considers "unorderly"... Though, I think its more likely Annie will have a slightly more direct effect in solving it herself, to open the opportunity for character growth. With help from Kat, naturally. I keep wondering how Anthony will respond to Smitty, if they meet. Andrew: "Sir, it seems you've transferred a large amount of capital into my account. What is th-" Anthony: "-Dowry." Andrew: "..." |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 15, 2015 14:46:26 GMT
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Post by machival on Apr 15, 2015 14:49:23 GMT
Speaking of Smitty, do you think he could save the day? He could probably solve the forest problem simply by being present at such a meeting. Probably the only person in the multiverse that can make politics go smoothly. Granted, we don't know what his power considers "unorderly"... Though, I think its more likely Annie will have a slightly more direct effect in solving it herself, to open the opportunity for character growth. With help from Kat, naturally. I keep wondering how Anthony will respond to Smitty, if they meet. Andrew: "Sir, it seems you've transferred a large amount of capital into my account. What is th-" Anthony: "-Dowry." Andrew: "..." Anthony: "Andrew, I cannot say how pleased I am. Your Schoolwork is exemplary, and so are your abilities. The court already knew about these qualities, but I will not miss this opportunity. I've examined every facet of the situation and have made arrangements for you to marry my daughter, Antimony." Parley: "What?! You ~ You Can't do That!" |
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Post by juxander on Apr 15, 2015 15:59:26 GMT
It is interesting to me that Antimony the magical forest medium is stoic and often represses emotions / misses social cues while Katarina the logical machine angel is often more in touch with feelings and human connection. |
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Post by kelantar on Apr 15, 2015 16:29:11 GMT
See, I think this is more evidence that Kat is stronger. I mean, if you look at this page Kat says she cries about everything, but that means she's being emotionally honest. I guess it depends on how you define emotional strength. For instance there's the sexist idea that "boys don't cry," and we're supposed to believe that if a boy or man cries, he's emotionally weak. But in my opinion, emotional strength comes from being honest with yourself about your emotions and confronting your feelings. Annie compartmentalizes her emotions and, as we've seen quite literally in the ether, she wears a mask and hides her troubles even from those she's closest to. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 15, 2015 17:10:27 GMT
See, I think this is more evidence that Kat is stronger. I mean, if you look at this page Kat says she cries about everything, but that means she's being emotionally honest. I guess it depends on how you define emotional strength. For instance there's the sexist idea that "boys don't cry," and we're supposed to believe that if a boy or man cries, he's emotionally weak. But in my opinion, emotional strength comes from being honest with yourself about your emotions and confronting your feelings. Annie compartmentalizes her emotions and, as we've seen quite literally in the ether, she wears a mask and hides her troubles even from those she's closest to. I had meant actually that they had about the same level of emotional strength there - they're both devastated by Mort's departure. In other words, on that page, Kat isn't any emotionally stronger than Annie; Annie just hides it better. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 15, 2015 17:40:53 GMT
In other words, on that page, Kat isn't any emotionally stronger than Annie; Annie just hides it better. I think Kat just grew up in a healthier situation, so she has more practice being honest and open. Annie grew up with just her mom and her dad. She didn't really have any friends. Who did she open up to as a young child? Probably no one. Maybe her mom. Maybe even her dad. We don't know. But opening up to friends? That's a level of vulnerability she had never learned because she never had the opportunity. She's getting better. It started in "A Handful of Dirt" but even as late as "Thread" she has trouble dealing with her emotions until they have reached some critical mass. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 15, 2015 17:46:48 GMT
It is interesting to me that Antimony the magical forest medium is stoic and often represses emotions / misses social cues Remind you of anyone? *cough*Ysengrin*cough* |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 15, 2015 18:00:51 GMT
"... then help me kill my father." Of course Annie is too submissive right now to even think that But for normal non-submissive people that's perfectly natural? It's not a story about drow, right? I was beginning to think that this chapter might be a narrative demonstration of what could lead a sweet awesome girl to murder, and have the reader still support her. Step 1 - Make the future murder victim look like an unredeemable A-hole. |
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Post by nero on Apr 15, 2015 18:15:20 GMT
Kat shows that she's a good friend and mature for her age. She knew that if Annie was cheating for so long that Annie must have a reason for it.
I'm glad she so supportive, Annie will need her help.
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Post by mithrandir on Apr 15, 2015 19:20:12 GMT
Page with most panels with embarrassed Annie? The embarrassedest face! Man, I hope Kat gets Annie snapped out of this meek funk. At this point she may be the only one who can. I think Kat still needs to find out just how many things Annie needs help with right now. One thing: Kat isn't bluffing when she says she'll help Annie with anything. If, for example, she comes to the conclusion that Anthony is acting against Annie's best interests, she will move heaven and earth to get her out from under his thumb, no matter the risk to herself, if she can only figure out how. We know Kat is intelligent - I guess this story is going to show us whether she's wise. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 15, 2015 19:40:02 GMT
In what way? One party tries desperately to please the other, who has nothing but contempt for them? Or did you mean that the robots and Annie both can't see fault in their father figure and will see their values as superior to their own? The latter. More specifically, how the robots loved and held Diego in very high regard, without really knowing who he was or why he did the things he did. The fact that they refer to him as their father as opposed to exclusively using 'creator' only helps that impression along. |
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Post by pxc on Apr 15, 2015 19:41:23 GMT
If she pushes Annie too hard about Tony, Annie may become angry and push back. In Divine she didn't "get her fight back" until Zimmers said her dad was a jerk. She defended her father strongly when Rey went after him just before she fled to the forest. In a softer way she's always defended him when Kat has questioned his actions, though likewise Kat has never confronted her and cast a judgement, just asked things like "did he not call at all this summer?". I am expecting her to push Annie on this issue, and for Annie to push back. I don't think it'll be as easy as Kat talking to her and Annie realizing she needs to stand up for herself.
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Post by aline on Apr 15, 2015 19:58:11 GMT
People mentionned the blue dress having appeared in chapter 15, so I went back to read it. It's interesting because it's Annie's first summer at the Court, and she stays there alone.
The moment the other students leave (end of chapter 14), she removes her make up and her shoes. Later, we see her running around in the corridors in that blue dress, again with bare feet and no make up. She comments of how similar GC feels to her previous home, Good Hope. She seems at ease then, happy and comfortable.
Both shoes and make up show up again when Kat comes back (and not before).
It kinda confirms the link between those looks and her younger self / pre-GC life.
Something else: Annie never mentionned what that make up means to her (she avoids the question when Kat asks). I don't think she wears it just because it's her mom's. It's also a shield of sorts. Maybe we'll learn a little about that.
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Post by todd on Apr 15, 2015 20:25:25 GMT
Anyway, Gillitie Wood is so central to the plot that I don't see Anthony's interdiction to hold for longer than a few chapters at most. Maybe, though Tom could always do Gilltie Wood chapters from the perspective of Smith and Parley and not bring Annie in at all. I certainly think that undoing Anthony's rules is still not going to be easy - and doubt that Tom's going to conveniently reverse them by the end of the chapter (even if it would make doing further chapters easier). Anthony doesn't seem likely to change his mind, for one thing. And I think that Tom would certainly have to handle such a development carefully so that it won't look like "Annie's cheating is being overlooked again because she's the main character and it would hinder the story to have her punished" - a message which I doubt he'd want to send. Incidentally, people here have been talking about the Court's overlooking Annie's cheating for a long time after it found out, and how strange that was. It's certainly questionable behavior for a school - even a peculiar one. But recently I thought of another curious feature about that. Annie's nosing around into the Court's affairs and the strange things that go on has caused it a lot of problems - all the way back to when she sent Robot across the bridge (thus a) starting a diplomatic incident with the Wood and b) freeing a potentially dangerous religious zealot - if both unwittingly). Annie's cheating would give the Court a good opportunity to put a stop to it, since they could then have her, as part of the punishment, spend all her time studying to make up for it - meaning that she'd be too busy doing that to go prying around and exploring. (Of course, it would probably be a bit like closing the stable door after the horse got out - but at least it would prevent her inadvertently releasing more trouble.) Why it passed up such an opportunity I don't know - unless the faculty didn't think they'd be able to enforce it (cf. Annie ignoring their detention sentence in "Give and Take") and that only Anthony would be able to get her to follow it. Put it down as one more case of "The Court does some very strange things". |
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rama
Junior Member
Heh
Posts: 54
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Post by rama on Apr 15, 2015 20:33:20 GMT
"I didn't want you to think I was stupid"
Damn.
That was a direct hit to the feelings.
Then again, it seems to be a pretty common fear, that people will pity you or want nothing to do with you, if you don't show yourself as competent from the start.
Modern culture place such value on being competent but we don't show any appreciation for the actual process of learning, and it has the bizarre effect of making less people achieve to their potential, not more.
I wonder how many children cheated today because of fear of rejection...
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Post by aline on Apr 15, 2015 20:42:53 GMT
Maybe, though Tom could always do Gilltie Wood chapters from the perspective of Smith and Parley and not bring Annie in at all. Maybe short term but not long term. Annie's story is all about the barrier between the forest and the court. She'll be back there. For now though, the story will very likely be court centered for a while. There are still many mysteries to uncover there. I certainly think that undoing Anthony's rules is still not going to be easy - and doubt that Tom's going to conveniently reverse them by the end of the chapter (even if it would make doing further chapters easier). I don't think everything will be undone righ away. I also don't think that the rest of the story will unfold in the way Anthony hopes (whatever that is). Instead, something different and unexpected will happen and Tom will take us in new places to uncover yet other parts of the truth. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Apr 15, 2015 21:06:55 GMT
If she pushes Annie too hard about Tony, Annie may become angry and push back. In Divine she didn't "get her fight back" until Zimmers said her dad was a jerk. She defended her father strongly when Rey went after him just before she fled to the forest. In a softer way she's always defended him when Kat has questioned his actions, though likewise Kat has never confronted her and cast a judgement, just asked things like "did he not call at all this summer?". I am expecting her to push Annie on this issue, and for Annie to push back. I don't think it'll be as easy as Kat talking to her and Annie realizing she needs to stand up for herself. I worry that Kat will do this. Her extreme dislike of Annie's dad has been a thing since long before she ever met him, and now he's pretty much confirming all her worst expectations. She's on a roll here, but if she isn't careful about what she says next, I could see Annie pushing her away. |
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Post by keef on Apr 15, 2015 21:28:34 GMT
See, this is why I don't buy the idea that Anthony's actions were commendable because he was coming down hard on Annie's cheating.
You know what often makes kids afraid to ask admit to a weakness and ask for help? Judgmental, perfectionist parents. Ironically, Anthony's solution is what caused the problem in the first place. You can bet that if Annie went to Anthony for help with school she'd be ridiculed for it, the same way he ridiculed her makeup and job as forest medium. Better to cheat and hide it. Wouldn't want Kat to leave like her father did. =Tony is bad man. I don't know what is more annoying, the triumphant tone or the endless repeating of the same message. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you really don't like Mr Carver? You wrote about almost nothing else on this forum. I'm getting repetitive too: It is obvious the guy is not the greatest dad in the world, so damn obvious I would say everybody knows by now. Please stop kicking that same dead rotting corpse of a horse. This is the best comic on the internet, I must have read it a hundred times by now, and I still find new little gems in it. This forum until now worked perfectly without an active moderator, because people joined for the comic and nothing else. I hope it stays that way. |
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