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Post by machival on Apr 10, 2015 20:00:20 GMT
"Lemon tree very pretty and the lemon flower is sweet, But the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat." The story in that song...when it was popular, I was a small child and didn't understand it, I just liked the music. Then as an adolescent I finally got it, and understood at long last that the lemon tree spoken of was a faithless women who cared nothing for her lovers, and left devastation in her wake, a loss of faith in not only her, but in love itself. What if Anthony is bitter not because he thinks Antimony killed his beloved Surma, but because he finally realized that Surman never loved him at all. That she only used him as a sperm donor to get the daughter that would carry on her flame? And that he is punishing Antimony as harshly as he is, not because he hates her, not because he's a controlling abuser, not even because he values academic achievement above his own child--but because he sees Annie's callous use of Kat as the attitude that led Surma to betray her own friends and lovers? Ehh, I don't think that jives with his statements to Kat about her possible complicity with the cheating (seems to me that he wouldn't have said anything if he thought Annie was a callous manipulator and seducer). As for the base idea of this being motivated by a souring of Anthony's view towards Surma, I like the idea of him viewing Surma negatively. So far, Surma's real and imagined paramours have thought the world of her. To actually have a character express anything like hatred or resentment would be a very interesting change, especially if it comes from Anthony.
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Apr 10, 2015 20:05:43 GMT
This arc is going to be very ugly.
I couldn't help but shake my head at a few comments on the comic I saw (not many, but still). Saying Tom is ruining the comic by destroying tons of character development.
A great deal of Annie's character development has happened in preparation for this moment: when her father comes back into her life. She was able to grow on her own while seperated from him, but he's back and turning back the clock. But now Annie is changed, and things are going to be different. This chapter features the opening move in a battle of wills, one Anthony has won thoroughly, but it's just the beginning of the war.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 10, 2015 20:07:04 GMT
This is really awful. Still a few months ago, I am sure the very first page would have had a post stating merely "Hallelujah", another one with a link to Cohen's song and on the next page at least there would have been a link to Buckley's (better) version of it, possibly someone even linking Wainwright, and whatever it brings in mind. For the record, I would have made the link, but I was asleep when the page came out, and I thought it was too late for it when I got up seven hours later. I did like your original post, though, because I love that song. And Wainwright's version is best. Clearly.
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Post by keef on Apr 10, 2015 20:10:05 GMT
I don't think someone will come to Annie's rescue. And maybe it is a good thing if she solves this herself. Once more a memory could be the trigger. And could you all please stop quoting the troll(s)? If you consider someone to be a troll, you can block and try to ignore him or her. It is often said that this will starve the troll. Whether or not that tactic really works is not sure, but I suppose you are here for the comic, not to raise some ******'s self-esteem. QuotingIf you feel you must answer something you think is offensive, please don't quote. If you think you must quote something, but understand it to be offensive use spoilers. [spoiler]unpleasant quote[/spoiler] . This way people who have already given up on someone and blocked them don't have to read the same annoying thing over and over again. BlockingClick username. Click cogwheel select what you want to block: Of course you only see the result when logged in.
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brokshi
Full Member
About as furious as my icon appears ecstatic.
Posts: 108
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Post by brokshi on Apr 10, 2015 20:11:07 GMT
This arc is going to be very ugly. I couldn't help but shake my head at a few comments on the comic I saw (not many, but still). Saying Tom is ruining the comic by destroying tons of character development. A great deal of Annie's character development has happened in preparation for this moment: when her father comes back into her life. She was able to grow on her own while seperated from him, but he's back and turning back the clock. But now Annie is changed, and things are going to be different. This chapter features the opening move in a battle of wills, one Anthony has won thoroughly, but it's just the beginning of the war. Yeah, I agree that this is the start of a very large change in the comic. Potentially, the narrative style might even change to reflect Annie's changed outlook. I just have to wonder how antagonistic Anthony will be throughout, how the forest will respond to their medium being taken away already, and how the trusted adults (Eglamore, the Donlans, Renard, Jones) will react.
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Post by stef1987 on Apr 10, 2015 20:16:34 GMT
Oh God, people were joking about it in the forums, but she actually cut her hair! Why? why would Anthony request that?
and why is it still going? I thought Rey was the last straw, but apparently not?
what?
I don't
I have no words
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Post by lunaleaf on Apr 10, 2015 20:17:08 GMT
And from your lips he drew the Hallelujah. )': That's a sobering thought for this chapter, almost as much as the imagery itself.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 10, 2015 20:18:20 GMT
a fighting and growing Annie I hope this happens. That being said, if anything CAN break Annie emotionally, this is it. Her distant father, whose approval she craves, destroying every connection she has to what makes her happy? That's what nightmares are made out of. Which leads to the faint and sweet but unlikely hope that this is indeed a dream... If Anthony bought the dress for Annie or chose it for her from her wardrobe then that is very wrong, and creepy. But if Annie subconsciously picked that dress then that's just sad. We shall see... I doubt she'll go into the ether anytime soon. Her father will probably forbid that, if he hasn't already. Interesting question, though: CAN he prevent her from doing so, if she wants to? (also your avatar is broken, but I assume you know that...)
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Post by Refugee on Apr 10, 2015 20:19:33 GMT
I doubt she'll go into the ether anytime soon. Her father will probably forbid that, if he hasn't already. I'm not sure he can forbid that, anymore than he can forbid her to be wise. Since the beginning of the chapter, I've been itching to see Tony in the Ether. Yes. And is there a difference between what Annie would see, and what Zimmy would see? Again, I draw the parallel between the situation with Diego and Jeanne, with Anthony in the Diego spot and Antimony in the Jeanne spot, and the canines perhaps in the Green Guy spot. I'd be cautious about equating Anthony and Diego. It is not at all clear that they share motives. As for Jeane, after the several archive crawls I've done in the wake of the current arc, I'm thinking that she is not at all trapped. I think she is standing guard there, against what I do not know. She only marked Annie, and then only in the etheric sense, but she killed the psychopomps that came to release her. I think it's because the psychopomps meant to take her away from her duty, while Annie was not only there by accident, but sought to understand her rather than interfere with her.
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Apr 10, 2015 20:19:43 GMT
This arc is going to be very ugly. I couldn't help but shake my head at a few comments on the comic I saw (not many, but still). Saying Tom is ruining the comic by destroying tons of character development. A great deal of Annie's character development has happened in preparation for this moment: when her father comes back into her life. She was able to grow on her own while seperated from him, but he's back and turning back the clock. But now Annie is changed, and things are going to be different. This chapter features the opening move in a battle of wills, one Anthony has won thoroughly, but it's just the beginning of the war. Yeah, I agree that this is the start of a very large change in the comic. Potentially, the narrative style might even change to reflect Annie's changed outlook. I just have to wonder how antagonistic Anthony will be throughout, how the forest will respond to their medium being taken away already, and how the trusted adults (Eglamore, the Donlans, Renard, Jones) will react. Annie has been beaten so thoroughly in this chapter that I think she'll be under his thumb for at least some amount of time. At this point, I can't help but imagine her being extremely isolated for a while from her support systems, with the possible exception of Kat. Kat might shift to the primary protagonist for a bit, with the primary goal of helping Annie. I envision it taking a bit before Annie starts to rebel against Anthony, sneaking off to do things behind his back. Also, there's a whole lot for her to learn about what he's up to. There are lots of ways this could go, though. (Mostly I'm hoping someone will punch Anthony in the face. )
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Chendzee'a
New Member
They should have sent a poet...
Posts: 27
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Post by Chendzee'a on Apr 10, 2015 20:22:32 GMT
Well a lot of people seem to think that Annie is regressing mentally. Well... I guess Gendo WILL have his Rei.
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Post by kelantar on Apr 10, 2015 20:24:32 GMT
But I think we can agree that it's Anthony's fault. We can agree that Mr. Carver triggered it. I won't assign blame or fault or any such thing until I know who did what and why. Once again, we'll disagree here. I think it's reprehensible to put a child in this situation for whatever the reason. And I'm still shocked that people think that there's some unique situation that would not only justify breaking down one's own child like this, but that people think that Tom would willingly create a situation that would require such emotional abuse for some reason.[/quote]But if we take your abscess metaphor and run with it, the repeating the year and extra study were the lancing and draining, and he did it without anesthetic, and then amputated (removing her from Kat and Rey). And today we found out that there may have been a lobotomy, just in case.[/quote]The thing is, sometimes I don't think she does doubt his love for her. After all, he must have his reasons right? I, on the other hand, am very much doubting his love for her. The only suggestion we have that he ever loved her was that Surma told her he did, and we have no clue as to the veracity of that statement.This makes no sense to me either. You can't sympathize with someone unless you also sympathize with the person making them feel like crap? I will say I agree with the rest of what you wrote. Tom's not pulling any punches with the story right now, and hopefully Annie bounces back from this. But whether she needs to heal the rift between her and her father or break free of his influence remains to be seen. I just had a thought. We can't know from the comic. But what did Surma and Anthony discuss as to what to do with Antimony after Surma died? If some or all of this was according to Surma's wishes, would that change how we thought about any of it? I'm really not sure, myself. A sobering thought. Moreover, what if the very reason Surma choose Anthony was because she knew she was going to die, and that as Annie grew up, she'd need the stern hand more than the nurturing one? Knew Annie as she knew herself? In any case, your question is a valid one, an important one. How much of the vitriol would go away if it were Surma? If Annie were being punished by a loving, caring parent instead of...whatever Anthony is? I'm confused. We're saying Surma said "Anthony, when I die, don't talk to Annie for a few years, and then, when you come back, if she's cheated on her schoolwork, make her repeat the year, take away all her friends and break her spirit!" now? This is our desperate excuse for Tony now? Because if that turns out to be true, I will gladly change my banner to "Tony & Surma Carver: Dick-sacks Extraordinaire!" ]Since the beginning of the chapter, I've been itching to see Tony in the Ether. What does he look like there? Does he look simple and practical, or is he something complete unexpected? Zimmy's punch, and acts of etheric surgery/sorcery, just makes me want to see it more. My guess? He looks like boxbot. Over eight hours later and this page is still punching me in the gut. The saddest face!
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Apr 10, 2015 20:25:04 GMT
4. No more Demi-gods sniffing up her dresses. No measly wardrobe change will stop Me!!
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Post by speedwell on Apr 10, 2015 20:26:21 GMT
Again, I draw the parallel between the situation with Diego and Jeanne, with Anthony in the Diego spot and Antimony in the Jeanne spot, and the canines perhaps in the Green Guy spot. I'd be cautious about equating Anthony and Diego. It is not at all clear that they share motives. As for Jeane, after the several archive crawls I've done in the wake of the current arc, I'm thinking that she is not at all trapped. I think she is standing guard there, against what I do not know. She only marked Annie, and then only in the etheric sense, but she killed the psychopomps that came to release her. I think it's because the psychopomps meant to take her away from her duty, while Annie was not only there by accident, but sought to understand her rather than interfere with her. The shared motive I meant to draw attention to was the possibility that Anthony could be desperately jealous of Antimony's attachment to the Forest, because of some fear he may have had in the past that he could have lost Surma to the Forest (e.g. Reynardine) if things had gone differently. He doesn't trust or understand such things; he can't even read them at face value. It would have been devastating for him. I know it's a stretch, but it's not out of the question, and I think it's at least plausible. As for Jeanne, I think she is trapped in the same sense and possibly for the same reasons that a widow who won't remarry is trapped.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 10, 2015 20:26:29 GMT
What if Anthony is bitter not because he thinks Antimony killed his beloved Surma, but because he finally realized that Surma never loved him at all. That she only used him as a sperm donor to get the daughter that would carry on her flame? And that he is punishing Antimony as harshly as he is, not because he hates her, not because he's a controlling abuser, not even because he values academic achievement above his own child--but because he sees Annie's callous use of Kat as the attitude that led Surma to betray her own friends and lovers? Ehh, I don't think that jives with his statements to Kat about her possible complicity with the cheating (seems to me that he wouldn't have said anything if he thought Annie was a callous manipulator and seducer). I didn't say that Annie was a callous manipulator, any more than I've said that she's a might captain of industry losing his power because of a faked resume. Only that her plagiarism of Kat exposes the same flaw that grows into those more terrible things. Anthony's warning to Kat may well have been a warning to Antimony as well, may have been primarily intended for Annie. This is why I'm not eager to do more than speculate, rather than judge. I simply don't know enough.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Apr 10, 2015 20:32:55 GMT
This is the most timid we have ever seen Annie. She almost looks like a shut-in... I think I would be less concerned if Annie were crying.
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Post by speedwell on Apr 10, 2015 20:34:27 GMT
I just had a thought. We can't know from the comic. But what did Surma and Anthony discuss as to what to do with Antimony after Surma died? If some or all of this was according to Surma's wishes, would that change how we thought about any of it? I'm really not sure, myself. A sobering thought. Moreover, what if the very reason Surma choose Anthony was because she knew she was going to die, and that as Annie grew up, she'd need the stern hand more than the nurturing one? Knew Annie as she knew herself? In any case, your question is a valid one, an important one. How much of the vitriol would go away if it were Surma? If Annie were being punished by a loving, caring parent instead of...whatever Anthony is? I'm confused. We're saying Surma said "Anthony, when I die, don't talk to Annie for a few years, and then, when you come back, if she's cheated on her schoolwork, make her repeat the year, take away all her friends and break her spirit!" now? This is our desperate excuse for Tony now? Because if that turns out to be true, I will gladly change my banner to "Tony & Surma Carver: Dick-sacks Extraordinaire!" No, it's not a desperate excuse for Anthony. I personally think there's no excuse for his behavior even if he is going along with some scheme he and Surma dreamt up. He could have changed his mind and treated his daughter like a daughter. I thought it was too much of a stretch to accuse Surma of trying to resurrect herself in her own daughter, but it is not impossible, I suppose, in a world in which the Realm of the Dead and the Ether are accessible by the living (and it's not even unique, particularly to those of us who are Girl Genius webcomic fans). We don't actually see Surma acting with special compassion or empathy in the comic, except in a caress we see her give Anthony, and the ostensibly protective statement to Antimony that she will never send her into danger. To my mind, that "he still loves you" comment was a compassion and empathy fail.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 10, 2015 20:37:20 GMT
As for Jeane, after the several archive crawls I've done in the wake of the current arc, I'm thinking that she is not at all trapped. I think she is standing guard there, against what I do not know. She only marked Annie, and then only in the etheric sense, but she killed the psychopomps that came to release her. I think it's because the psychopomps meant to take her away from her duty, while Annie was not only there by accident, but sought to understand her rather than interfere with her. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=777www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1341It's relatively clear that she's trapped. It's clear she never chose her role (since she's quite bitter about it still). It's *also* relatively clear that Jeanne didn't decide to kill Annie, and that she was placed there as a sentinel by the Court leaders. Although, that could have been a false reason, given by Diego to gain his revenge. But she does at least partly try to kill Parley. There are many unresolved questions that will hopefully be resolved in the future. My interpretation, personally, is that the green arrow channels her anger and hatred, so she attacks anyone trying to cross. (Thus providing a line of defense for the Court's borders, though it is unknown if it's needed still.) But Annie's presence seems to calm spirits, so she wasn't immediately murdered, and thus may have a chance to talk to her or release her if she goes alone next time. Note that Jeanne only became violent once Parley was there, possibly out of jealousy as well as rage. The thing I don't know is why Coyote is unaware of her. Or, for that matter, why Ysengrin wasn't attacked when he went down to plant the bird.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 10, 2015 20:44:05 GMT
I'm confused. We're saying Surma said "Anthony, when I die, don't talk to Annie for a few years, and then, when you come back, if she's cheated on her schoolwork, make her repeat the year, take away all her friends and break her spirit!" now? This is our desperate excuse for Tony now? Because if that turns out to be true, I will gladly change my banner to "Tony & Surma Carver: Dick-sacks Extraordinaire!" This. Even if Surma wished for him to be stern, there's a difference between that and how Anthony has been towards Annie. I also think it needs to be taken into consideration that the lack of criticism towards Surma and most of it directed towards Anthony is based on a really big difference between them. The former is well dead. Regardless who's done worse, there isn't much that can be done for her. Anthony on the other hand, what with being alive is in the position to realize that he's been wrong and could even atone. Same with Annie. She was out of line towards Reynard in Fire Spike, but unlike her mother actually sought to make amends for her misdeed and since then I don't recall seeing any serious problem between the two. Might be proven wrong later, but so far there is no indication that Anthony considers his overall choices or methods to be wrong. And if a person can't admit to being wrong, then recovery isn't a current option.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 10, 2015 20:47:34 GMT
so far there is no indication that Anthony considers his overall choices or methods to be wrong. And if a person can't admit to being wrong, then recovery isn't a current option. So far there's really no evidence for this either way, to be fair. Tony's actions are absolutely wrong, but we don't know if he sees that (not that it changes the ethical arguments much). Could go either direction, deciding on what Tom decides to write...
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 10, 2015 20:49:24 GMT
so far there is no indication that Anthony considers his overall choices or methods to be wrong. And if a person can't admit to being wrong, then recovery isn't a current option. So far there's really no evidence for this either way, to be fair. Tony's actions are absolutely wrong, but we don't know if he sees that (not that it changes the ethical arguments much). Could go either direction, deciding on what Tom decides to write... Depends on whether one sees Tony as having a bit of arrogance. I mean arrogance usually means being unable to be self-critical.
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Apr 10, 2015 20:50:26 GMT
Ehh, I don't think that jives with his statements to Kat about her possible complicity with the cheating (seems to me that he wouldn't have said anything if he thought Annie was a callous manipulator and seducer). I didn't say that Annie was a callous manipulator, any more than I've said that she's a might captain of industry losing his power because of a faked resume. Only that her plagiarism of Kat exposes the same flaw that grows into those more terrible things. Anthony's warning to Kat may well have been a warning to Antimony as well, may have been primarily intended for Annie. This is why I'm not eager to do more than speculate, rather than judge. I simply don't know enough. There's plenty we don't know, but there's also lots we do know plenty. - Anthony disappeared for two years without contacting his daughter.
- When he did arrive, he didn't bother to meet up with Annie and talk to her first. Instead, he met her in class as a teacher.
- He called her make-up ridiculous and singled her out in front of class.
- His treatment of her was enough to make the other students uncomfortable.
- He coldly rebuked her when she had concerns about her arm.
- He didn't give her a book without explanation, singling her out further.
- In his first private conversation with his daughter after two years of absence, his first thing to do was talk about how disappointed he was in her.
- He handed down extremely harsh punishments isolating her from important parts of her life.
- He did not ask Annie why she cheated. He did not offer support. He did not attempt to compromise. He did not ask about how she's been doing, seeing as he's been out of her life for two years. He has not shown any indication that he cares about Annie as a person beyond wanting her not to cheat in classes.
- He referred to her position as forest medium as 'nonsense'.
- Annie has completely changed her hair and wardrobe. Either he demanded it, or Annie's relationship with her father is such that she feels the need to change hue things about herself in order to gain his love. In either of those cases, Anthony has failed as a parent.
I guess I don't know what I could possibly learn that would make these things less awful.
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 10, 2015 21:07:11 GMT
I doubt she'll go into the ether anytime soon. Her father will probably forbid that, if he hasn't already. Since the beginning of the chapter, I've been itching to see Tony in the Ether. What does he look like there? Does he look simple and practical, or is he something complete unexpected? Zimmy's punch, and acts of etheric surgery/sorcery, just makes me want to see it more. Presently I'm counting on the sighting of Anthony's ether form (Annie's view, maybe even Zimmy) being the clincher of the chapter.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 10, 2015 21:12:28 GMT
Perhaps THIS is the Chapter that should have been named Changes...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 21:12:46 GMT
Tony's actions are absolutely wrong When a character no longer challenges the reader's sense of ethics, a writer must ensure that he challenges the reader's sense of aesthetics. ...I did like Hetty's outfit. Edit: Ah, since nobody comments anyway, there's no reason for me to be tongue-in-cheek. There is, in fact, no distinction. That which is not ethically intriguing is also not aesthetically intriguing, and vice versa, precisely because the synonymous union of "good", "true" and "beautiful" cannot be presupposed; instead, the truth of this constellation must always be explored. For that matter, Annie's haircut wouldn't seem as disturbing if I had never seen her wear it before in the comic. At least his realization, fully or partially, would be interesting for the story. Creating a monster, on the other hand, can bizarrely amount to even greater boredom than a moral lesson. Edit: By moral lesson, I mean that abstract morals take priority over detailed impressions.
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joemcmahon
New Member
Have an archetypical day!
Posts: 2
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Post by joemcmahon on Apr 10, 2015 21:22:48 GMT
I...think I'd better take a break. Reminds me of some stuff I'd rather not remember. Ever.
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Post by nyaroon on Apr 10, 2015 21:22:59 GMT
Goddamnit at this point I just want the chapter to end. Every comic that comes out makes me wish I didn't stay up late to see it. I want to stop reading for a while and then come back and read how Annie snaped and gave her jerk of a dad a good comeback .... but I can't stop D:. I almost cried when I saw Annie look so defenseless and now she looks like shes 9 again D:. I'd like to think that Anthony is not a jerk but it's something like this www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1011 , but I can only trust Tom
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Post by snoodette on Apr 10, 2015 22:05:59 GMT
I'm wondering where Kat's been. She left the classroom before Annie but Annie has had time for her hair to be cut and to be partly packed. Did she have another class or has she already gone to her parents/Rey/Jones?
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brokshi
Full Member
About as furious as my icon appears ecstatic.
Posts: 108
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Post by brokshi on Apr 10, 2015 22:25:23 GMT
I'm wondering where Kat's been. She left the classroom before Annie but Annie has had time for her hair to be cut and to be partly packed. Did she have another class or has she already gone to her parents/Rey/Jones? Kat got back after all classes for the day, whereas Annie stopped going to classes after biology.
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Post by ninjaraven on Apr 10, 2015 23:07:09 GMT
- In his first private conversation with his daughter after two years of absence, his first thing to do was talk about how disappointed he was in her.
See, this one gets me: Tony expressed his disappointment in Annie. That doesn't fit well with a manipulator/someone who doesn't see Annie as an individual. His first words weren't along the lines of "Annie, you horrible little wretch! how could you do this to meeeee" but instead expressing to her his disappointment with the choices she'd made. And you can't make "your actions make me feel..." type sentences without acknowledging that there are two people involved. I have trouble seeing Tony as a control freak/manipulator because if he is one, I don't know how Annie would've made it to the Court in the first place. He is her father and, upon her mother's death, had sole custody of her. If Tony really needed to control Annie the way people seem to think he does, she never would have even SEEN Gunnerkrig Court. Is he making a hash job out of his relationship with Annie? Absolutely. But then again, this seems to be a part of his character (Microsat 5). Perhaps he and Annie can help each other in terms of their character flaws. I think Tony is cracking down super hard on Annie, sure - but I don't think he intends this to be a permanent state of affairs. However, he has felt it was serious enough to warrant his personal involvement. This Terrible Thing for Annie is TEMPORARY - it's only until she demonstrates she can do the work she has previously been skimping on. If she can do that, I expect he'll ease up on her. And if Kat can demonstrate that she did not let Annie cheat off her and will not help Annie cheat, then Anthony will probably let them hang out together - maybe even get Kat to help tutor Annie. I still get the feeling that this is, from Tony's perspective, an Intervention. I wonder if Tony is going to find this change as ridiculous as the makeup...
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