anisky
Junior Member
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Post by anisky on Apr 9, 2015 2:55:50 GMT
It's nothing more than she deserves. If you dislike a character so much you believe she deserves to: -be abandoned by her father for well over two years, -have his return sprung on her without warning in her year 10 biology class, -be emotionally abused by him when his first words to her are insulting her appearance, -and then he springs on her that she's being dropped back a year, -(though he's already made her sit through his Year 10 class a complete emotional wreck), -have what is by far the greatest of her achievements, about which other characters expressed pride in her, described by the person whose approval she wants most as "nonsense", -be forbidden from keeping the job that she earned on her own merits and both enjoys and finds extremely fulfilling and validating, -be isolated from her best friend and her year mates just as she was beginning to fit in, -be forced to hand over one of her closest friends, who has been like a father to her, into the hands (and mercy) of someone she knows that friend despises, and -be so completely and utterly mentally and emotionally decimated and broken that she dissociates so strongly she feels incapable of being present on this planet... Why in the world have you been reading a webcomic that has her as the protagonist for 1498 pages?!?! |
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Apr 9, 2015 3:16:56 GMT
It's nothing more than she deserves. Not sure if trolling, but still: Annie's a child, in school. She cheated by copying her friend's work (which would be her only major offence). She also helped avert more than one major disaster (Zeta's city taking over more than once, the cruise ship incident...). The goal of the school should be helping her learn and grow up into a responsible adult; helping her grow into the responsibility of being a medium (no matter if forest or court). She deserves proper adult supervision, which she didn't get for the longest time. If the court knew she'd been cheating for a while, it's their responsibility to find out why and solve the problem at it's root - we still don't know why she did it. Cheating at school isn't a criminal offence (yet), the only harm that did was to herself, since she didn't learn as much as she should have. To repeat: Both (all three) sides are in the wrong here. Anthony's (and the court's, since he shifted the responsibility for Antimony's upbringing to them) was to supervise and care for Antimony, which they didn't do properly. She came into mortal danger more than once; while her cheating didn't go unnoticed, they didn't care enough to do something about it. Anthony's discipline comes way, way, way too late - taking away Reynardine would have been justified three years ago, but now? Tutoring her and making her take extra classes so she doesn't have to cheat would have been necessary three years ago! She deserved that kind of help, but Anthony was too busy not caring. That he's disappointed now is fine and dandy, but he completely misses how much of that is his fault and his responsibility - that and his very cruel and self-righteous way of disciplining her is what angers people, not that he's doing it at all. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 9, 2015 3:29:24 GMT
As a teacher myself I can also say that it is a damning indictment of the court to say nothing about Annie's cheating for two years, only to allow Anthony to drop this bombshell on her head. Consequences should have been brought out as soon as something was amiss.
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Post by SilverbackRon on Apr 9, 2015 4:17:24 GMT
Hm, Annie also has a blinker stone and one of Egg's signal sticks. I hope those are still in her possession. Breaking the signal stick and leaving Tony and Jim to discuss good old times might actually be a nice diversion tactic 
There is also the matter of Coyote's tooth. It should be somewhere with the rest of her stuff, and since only very few people know what it is, she should be able to keep it.
We know Annie hides important stuff inside her plushy wolf toy and that includes Coyote's Tooth. So if Anthony has control over Reynardine, then Annie can't order him to give her back the Tooth... no matter how she intends to use it. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 9, 2015 4:29:22 GMT
Breaking the signal stick and leaving Tony and Jim to discuss good old times might actually be a nice diversion tactic
There is also the matter of Coyote's tooth. It should be somewhere with the rest of her stuff, and since only very few people know what it is, she should be able to keep it.
We know Annie hides important stuff inside her plushy wolf toy and that includes Coyote's Tooth. So if Anthony has control over Reynardine, then Annie can't order him to give her back the Tooth... no matter how she intends to use it. That could also be a lot of her equipment gone too. Stuff like the lockpicks. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 9, 2015 4:31:33 GMT
We know Annie hides important stuff inside her plushy wolf toy and that includes Coyote's Tooth So if Anthony has control over Reynardine, then Annie can't order him to give her back the Tooth... no matter how she intends to use it.Rey can do whatever he wants as long as it doesn't go against an order from whoever owns him. As long as Anothony doesn't say "don't give her that tooth under any circumstances", he is free to give it to her if she asks or even if she doesn't. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Apr 9, 2015 5:47:23 GMT
We know Annie hides important stuff inside her plushy wolf toy and that includes Coyote's Tooth So if Anthony has control over Reynardine, then Annie can't order him to give her back the Tooth... no matter how she intends to use it.Rey can do whatever he wants as long as it doesn't go against an order from whoever owns him. As long as Anothony doesn't say "don't give her that tooth under any circumstances", he is free to give it to her if she asks or even if she doesn't. ^ I am going to believe this. If Anthony doesn't know about the Tooth, Reynardine won't tell him. "You may control me, but you can't make me talk if I don't want to" and Reynard certainly wouldn't voluntarily give Anthony somethings so powerful. It seems no one in the school outside of the Annie's closest friends know about it, certainly not The Court, so I don't expect her father to know it exists. Let's hope it stays that way. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 9, 2015 5:59:53 GMT
I'm really at a loss for what's going to come out of this. Years of time and effort on Annie's part are being torn away in a fraction of the time, and she's accepting it because her father said so. Yes, she cheated, yes, she was anti-authoritarian, and yes, children are expected to be punished for those things, but this is brutal to watch, Ever seen what happens when important work on a curriculum vitae or resume is found to be plagiarized or fabricated? Degrees get stripped and careers go in the toilet, sometimes very publicly, even those in positions of power in industry and government. The Bellesiles fraud, exposed by a software engineer and amateur astronomer and history buff, embarrassed historians, policy makers, and journalists that had depended on the fabricated work. Bellesiles lost his career and had to return a Bancroft prize, some $100,000, the first time in the prize's history one had been revoked. And this is how it starts. Annie indulged herself in lazy practice. The more you do it, the easier it gets, and the less important real work seems. Would Annie have gone as far as Bellesiles? Who knows? But the punishment stands in for the far worse consequences of what happens to adults who pull this stunt. Do the damn work, or be prepared to lose everything. I have to keep saying this, because people keep missing it: Annie is a good person. She is strong, and has many skills and talents Annie is good and strong. The awful thing about this, as some have argued for Bellesiles, is that she likely didn't need to do it. I believe she would have been able to handle the work just fine. So her beloved Mother died, leaving her with a cold and distant Father. Remote, even in the literal sense. Still, she has not been without guidance and support. Did she do this to attract her Father's attention? Maybe. She's apparently succeeded. I don't think she's happy with the way that turned out, though. Stop focusing on Mr. Carver. The story is about his Daughter, Antimony Carver, blessed with talents, wit, beauty, a good heart, friends, and even privileges and responsibilities that only a very few children her age even know exist. Few of us have perfect upbringings. Annie's has been better than most. The question is, who is Antimony Carver? What is she capable of? Can she rise above her own flaws? Will this set back, fairly minor as these things go, destroy her, or drive her to new heights? Should she have to earn the respect of her own father? Debatable, but I don't care. CAN she earn Mr. Carver's respect, the respect of her friends and peers, the accolades of her teachers, and the gratitude of those who have their trust in her? I am not convinced that Anthony is a bad father, much less an abusive one. Many things are said of him that we have not been shown. Even if they are true, I don't care. I only care about Annie, and what she can do with the resources available to her. And I very much care that she loves her Father, and continues to love him, that she finds the way to his heart, begins to heal the terrible wounds we know he bears, and wakens the love I know is there for her. The story is about Antimony Carver, a strong, good young woman who I am sure can overcome this setback, and do so in honor, love, and even glory. All who are interested in turning her into a victim? Who care more about proving how awful parents, especially fathers are? Have fun making mud pies. I'm over here, playing with Fire, and having plenty of fun. === And no, I don't think she's been "stripped of everything" she's achieved. She's still in the Court. She still has her powers. She hasn't been forbidden to see her friends, she just can't attend class with them, or live in the same quarters. She's not going to prison, so she will be able to make new friends. She still has her memories (unlike Ysengrin), her talents, and what she has learned. She has a strong will, patrons at the Court and in the Forest, friends and allies her Father may not know of. Possibly that she does not know of; I saw some angry faces in the class room on her behalf. She is not destitute, not by any means. She's had a set back, but she is not yet ruined. Have a little faith. Stop with the negative waves. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Apr 9, 2015 6:16:07 GMT
And I very much care that she loves her Father, and continues to love him, that she finds the way to his heart, begins to heal the terrible wounds we know he bears, and wakens the love I know is there for her. I'd like some clarification - do you see it as her duty to do this? Because I'm reading it as it's Annie's job to get her father to love her, which is, I believe, a destructive mindset. Now, if it means that Annie should not shut her father out during a tough time in his life, I still don't completely agree, but I can at least see where you're coming from. |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on Apr 9, 2015 6:50:17 GMT
If you dislike a character so much I don't dislike Annie, just her attitude, and I believe she's getting what's coming to her as a result of her own actions. It's called karma. For completely legitimate reasons that are entirely her own fault. You mean the job working for the psychotic wolfman who tried to kill her? Twice? And the equally insane god who let said wolfman try to kill her? Because he thought it would be funny? That job? Yeah, I'm not seeing the problem here. Except that she's not being isolated. She has to live in a different dorm. Hardly solitary confinement in a maximum security prison in Antarctica. Do you live in the same building as all of your friends? I sure don't and I'm just fine and dandy. One of her closest friends who, as far as Anthony knows, is an extremely dangerous spirit that poses a threat to everyone around her. An extremely dangerous spirit who murdered at least two people to pursue a romantic fixation. Perhaps he could stand to get to know Rey better, but there's nothing actually wrong with not wanting Annie to be near someone as dangerous as Rey. Annie's a child, in school. She's a teenager, and old enough to be held responsible for her actions. She is being so. While Anthony could do a better job in his approach, nothing he has done and none of the edicts he has imposed on her is in any way incorrect. As far as he was aware her work was fine. He was not able to compare her work with that of other students in order to expose her cheating until he became their teacher. It's not a matter of not caring, it's a matter of being completely in the dark. It's his fault that Annie decided to cheat? It's his fault that the Court failed to properly supervise her? It's his fault she thinks adults are worthless? You're full of something and it ain't sunshine and rainbows. What's this you say? Annie needs help with her schoolwork? See, here's the thing. SHE LIVES IN A SCHOOL. She is in regular contact with at least 2 to 4 teachers at that school. If she needs help with her schoolwork she needs to ask a teacher or a fellow student for tutoring. Not cheat off her best friend behind her back. It is not his responsibility, it is the Court's responsibility and it is Annie's responsibility. Where the Court failed to properly instruct her, it was Annie's responsibility to admit she had a problem and seek help for it. She failed to do so and is experiencing the consequences of her actions. |
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Post by OrzBrain on Apr 9, 2015 6:59:38 GMT
I think I may go away for a while. Can someone call me when one, or preferably both, Carvers burst into flames?
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Post by speedwell on Apr 9, 2015 8:47:26 GMT
You certainly wonder about some forum-members' motivations, don't you? I feel really sorry for people who can't tell the difference between how a caring adult would act and how an uncaring adult would act, between how a child or teenager would make decisions and how a responsible adult would make decisions, between how a traumatized person under extreme stress would act and how a confident, supported, healthy person would act, and between how a professional would act and how a person abusing their power would act. I am at least happy that the people without compassion are able to model healthy behavior, after a fashion. I am not as happy with their manifest lack of compassion and empathy.
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Apr 9, 2015 9:48:50 GMT
Yay, insults! It's not his fault that the court didn't supervise her properly, but it's a fact that needs to be brought into the decision. It's nothing more than she deserves. Not sure if trolling I've decided: *plonk* |
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Post by itrogash on Apr 9, 2015 9:49:43 GMT
From what I understand, Annie was being homeschooled by her mother. Now I'm not going to undermine Surma's competence, but I suspect, that as a etheric kind of person science was not her strong side, so she probably focused more on history and other things Annie excelled at. Science was more of her daddy thing, but it seems he wasn't exactly up to the task.
Yet, Annie was thrown straight into deep waters of Court's science-focused curriculum, with all people telling her how her parents were amazing, expecting her to be the same.
I'm not saying her decision was wise, but I understand how the fear to disappoint other people works. I know how it makes one think that he/she can't ask anyone for help and do everything by him/herself. It doesn't make one prone to wise decisions. That's why I feel more sympathy than need to bash her.
It was Court's responsibility to see this problem and intervene. Why didn't they do this? If they acted as soon as they noticed this, everything could be set straight. Why now? Annie have already figured out what she did was bad (and it is in my understanding that she stopped cheating after Fire Spike incident). Punishing her now will do more harm than good.
This is why I have a beef with this whole situation. It doesn't make sense for me in terms of disciplinary actions. It looks more like some kind of petty revenge or something.
There is one thing that terrifies me in this. Tony tried to tinker with Annie's soul. He conducted some kind of procedure on her making her collapse in the process. Whatever he wanted to achieve, he did it without any concern for consent. It's seriously disturbing. The fact, that this person has now full control over her, and she can't refuse him anything, makes me shudder.
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Post by rinabean on Apr 9, 2015 12:51:41 GMT
There is one thing that terrifies me in this. Tony tried to tinker with Annie's soul. He conducted some kind of procedure on her making her collapse in the process. Whatever he wanted to achieve, he did it without any concern for consent. It's seriously disturbing. The fact, that this person has now full control over her, and she can't refuse him anything, makes me shudder. Yeah yeah but Annie's a sometimes immature literal schoolchild so who even cares? I mean, are you saying your dad wouldn't try to rip your soul out if you were naughty at the boarding school he abandoned you at after your mother died? All I'm seeing here is healthy parenting!! Also when does Annie die that's what I've been waiting for for the years I've read this comic I hate her!!
Who is going to beat him up next though? I am so excited for it to happen but who will it be? Best if it's Annie but I doubt it. Kat? Rey? Eglamore? I want it to be Jones just because I love Jones but that is unlikely too! Ysengrin? Maybe if she escapes to the forest at some point This is probably going to tie in with something else but what? Coyote's tooth? Robots? Jeanne? What??? Ysengrin's altered mind?? I'm so excited |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 9, 2015 13:43:39 GMT
And I very much care that she loves her Father, and continues to love him, that she finds the way to his heart, begins to heal the terrible wounds we know he bears, and wakens the love I know is there for her. I'd like some clarification - do you see it as her duty to do this? Because I'm reading it as it's Annie's job to get her father to love her, which is, I believe, a destructive mindset. I am saying that love itself is a good and joyful thing, especially between parents and children, and that it is worth pursuing. I am saying that of the two, Annie is the one most likely to be able to rekindle what embers of love Anthony may have. But duty? Only in the sense that we all have a duty to find love within ourselves and others, as best we can. Annie has a great capacity for love; it is a tremendous gift, possibly the greatest she has. It is the nature of that gift, however, that it dies if it is not given to others, and if we do not seek it in those around us. A few stories of children being destroyed by abuse, or of destroying their parents in revenge against such abuse, may be necessary to warn us that such things happen. But a flood of such stories is eroding the foundations of our culture. (Not that I am granting that Anthony is guilty of abuse, as I hope I have made clear previously.) Tom is weaving a tale of love finding love, healing the heart, and warming the soul. Coyote sees Annie as the Firehead girl, wild, a source of gleeful chaos. Too many here see her fire elemental as a weapon to be wielded against all who displease here. That may be what some in the Court see as well. That may be what her own Father sees, though I am not convinced of that. But I believe her fire is nothing but her love for everyone around her. |
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Post by kelantar on Apr 9, 2015 14:25:12 GMT
One of my main problems is that Anthony left Antimony at the school with no guidance and no instructions, and then shows up and completely rearranges her life because he disapproves of the perfectly legitimate things she's doing. If he had some sort of strict guidelines she had to adhere to, he should have informed her in some way. How can he leave for two years and then come back talking about how her makeup is ridiculous (does that mean he thought his wife's makeup was ridiculous, too?) and how her extra-curricular activities are nonsense. You can't be justified in your disappointment in someone if you leave them to fend for themselves and don't even write a letter or anything.
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 9, 2015 14:35:40 GMT
If you dislike a character so much I don't dislike Annie, just her attitude, and I believe she's getting what's coming to her as a result of her own actions. It's called karma. Karma's isn't typically perceived as disproportionate, though (if you believe in the concept at all)*. You don't get drowned in trash for littering. Antimony being made repeat can be seen as justified - though the decision shouldn't have been made without at least talking with her first - but all the other things around it? Unconnected to cheating (Rey, Forest), unnecessary (threatening Kat) or just cruel (the makeup), etc. Without speaking to her, and in the worst possible fashion possible. Antimony has to repeat? Fine. There's were better ways to handle it. Instead it was done in the most disruptive, and hurtful, way possible. Many months after it happened? Many months after she accepted the job in the first place, despite Grin's unbalanced nature being well known? She was seen as a shoe in for medium, and had had many interactions with the forest, by the time Anthony called for scalpels. Do you know what he didn't do then? Tell her not to go to the forest because it was dangerous. Possibly because his justification for banning it isn't that it's dangerous. It's because it's "a distraction and nonsense". It can't even be argued to have been part of her cheating, since she started that before ever interacting with the forest. So in the end it's just denying her a place that's become important to her development and understanding of herself, as well as her friends there. We're yet to see how much of an impact it has, but Gunnerkrigg Court is a school the size of a small city where we've seen little or no interaction between years (also - no phones or email). One just has to remember what a novelty it seemed to Parley's friends to see students from lower years. Of course Kat and Antimony are good friends, so they'll find a way if it goes through. But it's still going to be isolating Antimony much more from her closest friend. 2 closest friends, if Anthony also got Rey (unless he's going to let Antimony keep interacting with him). Same situation as the forest, only x10. Antimony lived in the same room as Rey for the better part of 2 years. Kat's also lived with him. Numerous other students lived nearby. He practically roams free. He's performed heroically in the defense of Antimony, and other students. The Court (maybe), Eglamore, the Donlans, Jones... all seem ok with Rey. Some of them - such as Eglamore & Jones - better than ok. If you want to justify Anthony's demand of Rey as being based on concern for his daughter's safety then you're damning him for his slow reaction time, or for his decision to act in opposition to evidence (or not bothering to look into it to begin with). So why didn't he tell Antimony that long before now? Rey was such an immediate and constant threat to Antimony that Anthony knew he had to act... in over two year's time. It's a good thing Rey wasn't actually a threat, or Anthony would have had to deliver his "I'm disappointed" spiel to a gravestone. She is a teenager, and thus all the more reason not to treat her like a child. Hence why Anthony should have spoken to her. You can't have it both ways. |
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Post by kelantar on Apr 9, 2015 14:55:54 GMT
A few stories of children being destroyed by abuse, or of destroying their parents in revenge against such abuse, may be necessary to warn us that such things happen. But a flood of such stories is eroding the foundations of our culture. (Not that I am granting that Anthony is guilty of abuse, as I hope I have made clear previously.) Tom is weaving a tale of love finding love, healing the heart, and warming the soul. Or Tom could be writing a story about an abusive father. Neither of us know what Tom's intentions are (or Anthony's are), so it's useless to speculate on how this might turn out to be about "healing the heart." I could speculate on how it will turn out that he's trying to harness Annie's fire elemental , but I'm not going to do that, because we're just talking about what we've seen so far, which is anything but heartwarming. And how on earth does the revelation of abuse equate to the erosion of the foundations of our culture? I do have faith. I have faith that Tom wouldn't show a man who is breaking his daughter's spirit and has conditioned her to show complete obedience and then turn around and say, "But it's okay because she cheated on her homework and everything will turn out well in the end!" Once again, I'm going to bring up this tweet. We are supposed to be angry at Tony, otherwise, Tom wouldn't have written him so abrasively. |
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Post by sable0aria on Apr 9, 2015 15:12:59 GMT
I somehow doubt this will be a popular opinion, but honestly I have no sympathy for Antimony here. She's reaping the consequences of her actions. People are screaming for Anthony's violent death, but are they doing so because his actions are actually wrong? Or because he's being mean to poor defenseless helpless Annie who needs to be protected from her big mean dad who probably murders puppies and dropkicks babies in his spare time? No one is saying Annie should not face consequences for her actions. What Anthony is doing might look like being a parent, but right from the start he acted completely immaturely, and he's hiding it under stoicism, and authority. Instead of acting as a parent, and teacher talking to Antimony about her wrongdoing, and handing out the punishment accordingly before the school year started, he instead didn't even let his daughter know he was at the court until that very class. He took the opportunity to shock, and humiliate his daughter, this is not what a mature adult should do let alone a teacher, and parent. I have no doubt that had he actually acted as he should have the punishment he gave would have been the same, and it would still be sad, and painful(Editing to add that these punishments whatever Anthony's intentions are, still read like a text book abuser tactic, especially after completely abandoned his daughter for two years.) , but waiting to do it now makes him look more like a spiteful child. That is what is infuriating. I don't think he deserves a violent death, I think he needs to grow up. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 16:36:42 GMT
You certainly wonder about some forum-members' motivations, don't you? [...] I am at least happy that the people without compassion are able to model healthy behavior, after a fashion. I am not as happy with their manifest lack of compassion and empathy. But why would compassion be limited to those shiny happy people reiterating one's own thoughts about where compassion is supposedly justified, mostly by their apparent lack of leprosy? And apart from that, how come that less naturally-gifted people in whatever capacity are so often pitied, met with disgust, or ridiculed when they try to live like those who have enjoyed the more blissful upbringings they desire? -- I don't mean to put you down at all. These are long-lived questions the comic itself seems to ask. Should you wonder about my motivations as well: I do not want you to stumble into the same trap that I once lured myself into. Therefore, I would ask you to either drop the disguise of Christian/Schopenhauerian diction (the divinity-sized difference between those two models can be considered infinitesimal for the purpose at hand, I believe) and be upfront with your own motivations about this particular post -- or convince me that I am wrong and blind about you, that I have laid another trap for myself when I assume that wishing for others' supposed illnesses to remain imperceptible to "healthy" people, speaking in the interest of the greatest possible happiness total across humanity, has absolutely nothing to do with love or compassion. I don't know if the comic delivers moral lessons about parenting. That's certainly possible. There's one thing I still want to say about this: I've once met someone who said that Lolita bears the danger of making child abusers more strongly resemble Romantic poets, to which I responded that for me, it actually bears the danger of making Romantic poets more strongly resemble child abusers. Reflection appears to go either way. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 9, 2015 16:52:53 GMT
You know, bizarrely, something about this page made me wonder for a moment if the whole thing was Kat's dream. And I never subscribed to the dream theory! I don't think it IS Kat's dream, and I have absolutely no idea why I had that thought when I saw this page, but it is weird that now people are joking about it. It would be sorta hilarious, though, wouldn't it? Kat is probably aware that Annie has been cheating off her for ages and has just been ignoring it or letting it slide. Now comes this nightmare of what could happen if someone finds out, so Kat finally gets the courage to tell Annie to stop. Still possible, but quite unlikely. Mainly because there's no reason why it won't be "for realsies". Even if it wasn't, Boxbot is with us in spirit. I mean, she thinks that bots are great, but Boxbot is terrible. Thus, the boxes must be the reason. Everything can become more terrible, just add a box in front. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 9, 2015 18:07:33 GMT
You certainly wonder about some forum-members' motivations, don't you? [...] I am at least happy that the people without compassion are able to model healthy behavior, after a fashion. I am not as happy with their manifest lack of compassion and empathy. But why would compassion be limited to those shiny happy people reiterating one's own thoughts about where compassion is supposedly justified, mostly by their apparent lack of leprosy? And apart from that, how come that less naturally-gifted people in whatever capacity are so often pitied, met with disgust, or ridiculed when they try to live like those who have enjoyed the more blissful upbringings they desire? The most interesting thing about these two posts is that, taken only by themselves, I can't tell what positions you hold in regards to Anthony. And I agree with what both of you are saying here. I spoke of Annie's love for her Father upthread, but I think talking about her compassion for him makes more sense in this context, as it speaks more to her motives than to her feelings. I think there can be no duty to love, but there may be a moral duty to exhibit compassion. (If the state, however, attempts to compel compassion, it loses its meaning, and becomes little more than armed robbery.) I do not know what this means, and a quick skim of Prof. Wiki's summary of Schopenhauer philosophy does not enlighten me. Speaking of looking into the abyss... Provocative concept, thanks. === Speaking of Annie giving over Reynard to her Father, and alternatives thereto: Coyote has treated Reynard's body much different than that of the rabbit-fairy. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 9, 2015 18:36:34 GMT
Actually, I've been thinking about this since Monday. Could Tony know about the tooth somehow? Coyote said his tooth could cut the very earth, and we all assumed it might mean Jones. If Tony heard about it, he might think one element is as good as another. Could the tooth be used to cut Annie's fire-element cleanly off? Clean enough not to hurt her? If it can cut a shadow off the ground... has the tooth along with the lockpicks so depending on how all this went down he may still have them. If the Court isn't sure about Renard's abilities they'll probably keep him in the same body (where it would be smarter to have him jump into a body owned by the Court). That is an interesting idea about the tooth and the fire. One would assume that Antimony would still die without her fire even though the tooth could cut it from her, particularly in the hands of a skilled surgeon. However, perhaps the fire could be sliced into smaller pieces? Renard is what made me think of it. If we're assuming that there's an ulterior motive to Anthony's actions, he seemed to lead right up to getting a hold of Rey. A body-jumping, former wife-stalker wouldn't help him complete his orbital surgery. Then, there's Chekhov's Tooth. I don't see how Anthony could have known about it, though. So... Slicing the Fire into smaller pieces? There's a thought. I wonder if that's what he was trying to do with his unconsented remote surgery. Maybe, he wanted to leave enough to keep her alive, but started to bluntly remove too much. |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on Apr 9, 2015 18:56:20 GMT
unnecessary (threatening Kat) This particular quoted bit in particular is pretty much case in point for your rampant demonization of Tony. You know, I would have responded to all of your points, but it's clear that you're never going to change your opinions, so it's a waste of my time and effort and quite frankly, I'm too lazy to continue this argument one way or the other. So congratulations, you win the argument. Don't let your meteoric rise to the top make you forget the little people that helped you along the way. =D |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 9, 2015 19:30:43 GMT
I don't dislike Annie, just her attitude, and I believe she's getting what's coming to her as a result of her own actions. It's called karma. I don't think her cheating in school retroactively justifies the fact that Anthony was absent from her life for a while. At best, she deserves being punished for cheating, but Anthony's prior absence isn't something she deserves. I'm a little confused. You say he's entirely in the right (at least based on how the bolded parts are worded), but you're also saying he could have handled things better. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 9, 2015 19:56:22 GMT
I don't think her cheating in school retroactively justifies the fact that Anthony was absent from her life for a while. At best, she deserves being punished for cheating, but Anthony's prior absence isn't something she deserves. No, she doesn't. But lacking insight into Mr. Carver's motive for his absence (and some of his other actions prior to his return), I can't judge him, either. Speaking for myself, I believe that all of the edicts he has imposed on Annie are legitimate responses to her plagiarism. He and the Court are going easy on her, if anything. I am a little more concerned about Reynard, for reasons I've gone through before, but in essence because I believe turning Reynard over to Anthony might effectively punish him for actions he now deeply regrets and has already made amends for--not least by protecting Annie. And I very much want Anthony and Annie, Father and Daughter, to work an emotional reconciliation if it is at all possible. This is a difficult situation, possibly in ways Tom has not revealed to us. As desirable as Anthony's presence in his role as Antimony's father might be, he may well have had duties that prevented his return. Duties that perhaps include protecting Annie, the other children at Court, and perhaps human civilization at large from being attacked by forces we don't understand. It happens in real life; this is not a hypothetical situation. Dads go off to way, into the mines, out to sea, because if they don't their children may be enslaved or destroyed. We do not know in Anthony's case, which is why I'm reserving judgment on the past. His immediate actions I find no fault with. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 9, 2015 20:09:24 GMT
Speaking for myself, I believe that all of the edicts he has imposed on Annie are legitimate responses to her plagiarism. He and the Court are going easy on her, if anything. I am a little more concerned about Reynard, for reasons I've gone through before, but in essence because I believe turning Reynard over to Anthony might effectively punish him for actions he now deeply regrets and has already made amends for--not least by protecting Annie. And I very much want Anthony and Annie, Father and Daughter, to work an emotional reconciliation if it is at all possible. This is a difficult situation, possibly in ways Tom has not revealed to us. As desirable as Anthony's presence in his role as Antimony's father might be, he may well have had duties that prevented his return. Duties that perhaps include protecting Annie, the other children at Court, and perhaps human civilization at large from being attacked by forces we don't understand. It happens in real life; this is not a hypothetical situation. Dads go off to way, into the mines, out to sea, because if they don't their children may be enslaved or destroyed. We do not know in Anthony's case, which is why I'm reserving judgment on the past. His immediate actions I find no fault with. Right, and as I recently proposed, is there no reason he couldn't ask Donald or Anja to be there for Annie to contact in his place? I mean yeah, some parent legitamately can't be there for their kids, but in addition to money for education and such, some do try to whenever possible to ask other family members or trusted individuals like their friends to provide the emotional care that their child would need. |
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guyy
Full Member
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Post by guyy on Apr 9, 2015 20:10:03 GMT
You certainly wonder about some forum-members' motivations, don't you? I feel really sorry for people who can't tell the difference between how a caring adult would act and how an uncaring adult would act, between how a child or teenager would make decisions and how a responsible adult would make decisions, between how a traumatized person under extreme stress would act and how a confident, supported, healthy person would act, and between how a professional would act and how a person abusing their power would act. Someone actually compared this situation to an adult researcher who fabricated data, losing their job and some sort of award over it. That really says it all, doesn't it? I have a question, for those of you who think this punishment is totally justified. We've known Annie cheated on schoolwork for a long time. The first time I can remember is way back in chapter 17 (we're now on chapter 51). This popped up more later on, and there was never any clue that she'd stopped. So... have you been eagerly awaiting her comeuppance all this time, and got mad that it took so long? Is that why you think it's reasonable that she get punished in basically every way that isn't technically illegal? I mean, the way most of you talk about this, you'd think she murdered somebody's cat, and her dad is trying to make sure she doesn't become a sociopath. She's a teenager cheating on her homework. When I was in school, I was borderline obsessed with doing all the work honestly; practically everyone else cheated, especially in high school. I'm guessing most of the ongoing Anthony-supporters also never cheated, and had fantasies of dropping cruel punishments on the people who did cheat? It's that second part I can't really understand... I guess I'm just more of a self-blaming kind of person. She's not being punished like an adult (which wouldn't make sense anyway, she's a teenager who was homeschooled for most of her life by her dying mother). She's getting a worse punishment than you could conceivably give an adult for something like this. They're essentially taking away her friends, family, and a job that has nothing to do with the work she cheated on. In what world is this reasonable? |
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Post by speedwell on Apr 9, 2015 20:11:49 GMT
You certainly wonder about some forum-members' motivations, don't you? [...] I am at least happy that the people without compassion are able to model healthy behavior, after a fashion. I am not as happy with their manifest lack of compassion and empathy. But why would compassion be limited to those shiny happy people reiterating one's own thoughts about where compassion is supposedly justified, mostly by their apparent lack of leprosy? And apart from that, how come that less naturally-gifted people in whatever capacity are so often pitied, met with disgust, or ridiculed when they try to live like those who have enjoyed the more blissful upbringings they desire? -- I don't mean to put you down at all. These are long-lived questions the comic itself seems to ask. How interesting of you. If I was actually provoked to bite at that bit of pretend-philosophical literary "analysis", I'd be picking straw-man out of my teeth for weeks. As it is, I was brought up with the ridiculous ideas of my somewhat-distant cousin and family embarrassment Ayn Rand, and given the couple decades I've spent becoming a humanist and progressive, I think that even a straightforward attempt to "put me down" (as opposed to your rather oblique and ineffectual lazily sarcastic bon mots) would not succeed. I've been around that particular block a few times, comrade; I'm the old housecat blinking and yawning at your kittenish swipes. My left eyebrow is emphatically raised so far that it's in danger of making contact with the astral plane. (Oh, and don't use the word "seems", it makes you sound intellectually insecure.) Judging from the average age of the forum members, I've probably been an atheist since before you could walk, and engaging in literary analysis before your parents were married. (Assuming they were, in fact, married. One never knows.) If my diction bears some passing resemblance to that of Schopenhauer, blame his translators, not me. I talk this way in person and I long ago stopped caring whether my diction met with the approval of random strangers such as yourself . In any case, it's completely irrelevant. As for the rest of that paragraph, similarly irrelevant, I will content myself with saying that if the shoe fits, you can wear it with my wholehearted blessing. I don't have to explain, much less apologize for, my own motivations; they have been stated with crystal clarity in my other posts. You don't have to try to put me in my place, puppy; I am in it, I am content with it, and I earned the right to be here. You might also earn a similar place someday if you prove to possess the capacity. Don't hedge needlessly. I imagine a thinker of your apparent caliber is at least up to determining whether a work of literature does or does not deliver a given moral lesson. It doesn't appear to be a troublesome task to most of the rest of us. If you managed to state your contention correctly, which I am not sure you have managed to do, you have been seduced by its apparent symmetry into thinking that it is, in fact, symmetric. It is not. I invite you to retrace your steps and see why that adolescent bit of mockery isn't quite as impressive as it sounded over your beer. Now that steam is coming out of your ears and you're rehearsing what to type that would be a sufficiently intemperate response to my vexatious provocation, I will drop the overerudite "pose" just long enough to stoop to your level and say, "I'm laughing at you fit to shit, princess. Do us a huge favor, will ya, and piss off until you can blather with the grownups at the big table, innit?" |
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