Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 12:34:32 GMT
What about Anthony's tears, though? Is he merely a desperate man, anticipating the loss of some expertly-animated trinket that grants him pleasure and validation? It could be, but he also has a tendency to avoid any gratification that he perceives as easily-obtained and extremely desirable (cf. the Brinnie fiasco), and would rather choose the silver (or perhaps the leaden) casket. By the way, it amuses me how we, the readers, are apparently re-enacting a conflict already present in the comic itself. I think most posters have tended to express a "moderate" opinion of Anthony, which falls squarely into the middle between Annie's and Kat's perspectives on the subject; is it actually possible to remain uninfluenced by this dichotomy? |
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Mar 31, 2015 13:15:42 GMT
As for not telling her about the fire elemental, well... I don't know if you can really explain something like that to a kid that young. Maybe everyone thought it would be best to tell this to her when she was older. It's not just Surma and Anthony. Many people at the Court knew and kept it from her. The "too young to know" excuse gets thin as Surma runs out of time. Even if you buy it, then why didn't Surma leave Annie something like scheduled letters to help explain things as Annie got older? I'll admit that maybe she did and Anthony kept them from Annie. I fully expect Tom to reveal Surma and Anthony's back story that re-humanizes these characters. Tom has lead me to think that Annie would be better off with no father and Surma should have done more for Annie. I am more than ready to move on with the story (and I have considered that it would be better for me to stop reading the comic for a month or two and then catch up). |
|
|
|
Post by aline on Mar 31, 2015 14:08:21 GMT
I fully expect Tom to reveal Surma and Anthony's back story that re-humanizes these characters. Tom has lead me to think that Annie would be better off with no father and Surma should have done more for Annie. I am more than ready to move on with the story (and I have considered that it would be better for me to stop reading the comic for a month or two and then catch up). Well, Surma is human to me. She made some wrong things, but it makes her rather more human than less. Anthony, we know very little about him. We do know he used to be quite a sensitive boy, even if that wouldn't show on the outside. There's definitely a human being in there. But there are too many missing pieces. And we're like Annie and Kat, too torn about his words and judgment to actually wonder who the hell this person really is. And I think it might just be one of his goals. A diversion tactic. His aggressive behavior prevents Annie from asking the three tons of questions she should normally be asking. For example about his hand. |
|
|
|
Post by darlos9d on Mar 31, 2015 15:20:11 GMT
A diversion tactic. His aggressive behavior prevents Annie from asking the three tons of questions she should normally be asking. Wow. I think you pretty much nailed this one man. |
|
|
|
Post by kelantar on Mar 31, 2015 15:34:08 GMT
Many readers are highly critical of Anthony as a parent. Although I agree with that criticism, I believe some of that parental criticism is due for Surma. 1. Surma didn't teach Annie anything about her fire-elemental nature. Even in Surma's final year when Annie was eleven/twelve, it appears that Surma did nothing to prepare or warn Annie. Maybe Surma didn't teach Annie about her other half because she was hoping that Anthony would excise the fire elemental from Annie and she didn't want Annie to know enough to resist. But if that was the case, then it would have made more sense to teach Annie about the fire elemental part of them and explain it as a curse. 2. It appears that Surma cut herself, and therefore Annie, off from the friends that could have been competent guardians for Annie. Instead she left Annie saddled with Anthony, a deeply flawed (some say monstrous, toxic even) excuse for a father. Yeah, I think we tend to give Surma a pass because she's, well, dead. We don't know much about Anthony and Surma's interactions with Annie at Good Hope, so we don't really know what she was taught and by whom, or why her parents severed all ties with the Court and vanished. Therefore, I think we're a lot harder on Anthony, since anything done in Good Hope we can't really attribute to either one individually, but the abandonment afterwards was all him. If anything, I'm more critical of Surma's apparent manipulation of Reynardine. But, as I said, she's dead, so we can assign blame to her retroactively, but it's much easier to blame Anthony for being an asshat, especially when he is presently being an asshat. I suppose that much fewer readers dislike Jones for her inability to connect to other people. In part, this may result from Antimony being the focal character of the story, but I still wonder why that is. I largely expect this is because we have long suspected Jones to be devoid of emotion, whereas we have seen that Anthony is capable of emotion, but seems to voluntarily be cold to people. Jones, on the other hand, is incapable of emotion, but still seems to act more parental to Annie than her own father. Although perhaps that will change now that Anthony has returned. I always saw that scene as Annie taking Jones' mask. She's hiding her inner feelings over Kamlen and about the cheating by trying not to show any emotions, like Jones. Of course there's a million things going on in that chapter, so who knows. Well, if she'd thought he was a toxic father, she wouldn't have made a kid with him. There is still a lot we don't know about their relationship. But she probably assumed Anthony would take care of their daughter as well as he could. And it's quite possible that in his mind, he is. We still don't have a clue what he's thinking... ] Of course, it was also apparently her wish that Annie attend Gunnerkrigg after she died, not to remain with her father, for whatever that's worth. |
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Mar 31, 2015 15:49:41 GMT
What if he is NOT HER FATHER? What if Surma and Eglamore had a fight and broke up and she was pregnant and TONY manned up to take care of her... That could explain why Eglamore doesn't understand why she chose Tony, perhaps it was to save him the grief of her passing due to having a child. Wouldnt THAT be a bomb for Tony to drop. That's my queue... Maybe human-fire elemental hybrids reproduce by spontaneous pregnancy in their mid-twenties. Anthony is not Annie's biological father because she has no father. Anthony's actions towards Annie are a continuation of his attempt to help Surma, maybe even a promise he made to Surma before she died. Also would explain why Annie looks so much like Surma and why Annie might be asexual and/or aromantic. /speculation (that currently has no in-comic basis) Anthony is really Annie's father www.chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=annie+anthony+daughter |
|
|
|
Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 31, 2015 16:25:43 GMT
Wednesday (wildspec and wrong) prediction: APRIL FOOLS!
(ETA: It would explain the short previous chapter...)
|
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Mar 31, 2015 17:14:32 GMT
Wednesday (wildspec and wrong) prediction: APRIL FOOLS! Party hat |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 17:16:33 GMT
I largely expect this is because we have long suspected Jones to be devoid of emotion, whereas we have seen that Anthony is capable of emotion, but seems to voluntarily be cold to people. One could suppose that Anthony, while capable of feeling deep attachments to others, inflicts emotional harm on those who care for him because he cannot always accept their feelings about him. There's a problem, though: Jones, on the other hand, is incapable of emotion, but still seems to act more parental to Annie than her own father. Although perhaps that will change now that Anthony has returned. One would have to deduce that Jones is a better parent than Anthony precisely because she doesn't feel anything at all, and has learned to mimic empathy entirely through near-perfect observation of the world. Therefore, Jones' qualities as a good parent are the natural result of her Etheric conception. But Anthony's qualities as a bad parent result from his refusal to accept the world for how it presents itself to him; how could one prove that he has any more control over his behaviour than Jones has? One would have to infer this, simply put, from the assumption that humans will always have the sheer willpower to change themselves into whatever shape they desire. I don't want to prove or disprove this assumption, I am still too young to know much about this at all; but suppose that Anthony could change himself to be exactly like Jones in his style of parenting: would such a change be truly possible without also making him an "impartial observer"? And in that case, would he have worked so hard to try and save Surma, or would he have seen this as a fruitless endeavour from the start, because all fire elementals must surrender their fire to their children? And how does that reflect on Jones' perception of justice? I always saw that scene as Annie taking Jones' mask. She's hiding her inner feelings over Kamlen and about the cheating by trying not to show any emotions, like Jones. I think that our views go well together here, although I do not think that she is hiding her feelings so much as she tries to discover similar feelings in her perceptions of others. Jones herself might not have emotions, but she was assembled from imagination nevertheless; and even now that she roams the world, people will not be stopped from re-imagining her. |
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Mar 31, 2015 18:11:24 GMT
what is presumably one of the most excellent schools in the world Mr. Carver claims that the Court knew about Annie's cheating sometime ago. I see three possibilities: 1) He's lying about that. 2) Gunnerkrigg Court is not in any sense a conventional school. They actually don't care about the subjects they are purportedly teaching. They are instead attempting to teach something else - without being detected by any but the most exceptional students. Annie is at or near the top of her class in every subject except history and biology. 3) All the other teachers Annie has had, with the possible exception of her history and biology teachers, are incompetent. Probably the school administration as well. Because otherwise, someone would have approached her about the matter... explicitly, not vague hints, and laying out possible consequences. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 18:29:18 GMT
Jones has implied that the Court has some kind of interest in Annie and therefore tolerates her behaviour, which would rule out possibility number one; possibly the Administration has set her up as the Forest medium from Chapter 14 onwards (I think Coyote cannot be the only Trickster in the book) and believes that her lack of interest in most scientific matters might make her easier to manipulate for their interests.
2) very much sounds like the Court, though. If the Court indeed tracks people through their food, it's hard to fathom that given how few students attend this school in the first place, they would not know about Annie's occasional nightly adventures. And given that Zimmy and Gamma roam the school freely, never being forced to attend their lessons, the Court seems much more interested in observing or even unknowingly encouraging the development of people they find interesting, or perhaps purposeful for their own research...
|
|
erro
New Member
Posts: 6 
|
Post by erro on Mar 31, 2015 18:38:47 GMT
D:
Just...
D:
I don't know what to say. I feel my heart breaking, I don't know what's going on, and GOD DAMNIT WENSDAY COME SOON, I NEED CLOSURE, YOU CAN'T SEPERATE ANNIE AND KAT, YOU JUST CAN'T! I... I just... I don't know what to do. My mind is breaking, my guts in shambles as it twists and turns, my mind is breaking, I need a hug, I need a damn hug. DAMN YOU, ANTHONY. Damn you.
|
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Mar 31, 2015 19:17:49 GMT
And in that case, would he have worked so hard to try and save Surma, or would he have seen this as a fruitless endeavour from the start, because all fire elementals must surrender their fire to their children? Maybe, maybe not. But if you believe in the idea that people live on through their kids, then the best way to show his love for Surma is to take care of the child she produced. If Annie can grow up to be safe, healthy and happy, then Surma's death isn't in vain. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 19:49:35 GMT
I do not believe that his efforts to save her were fruitless at all even if he could not possibly have succeeded, which ties into my assumptions on how the Ether operates; but I didn't intend to ask about that. Rather, I'm curious if the interplay of extreme devotion and dickishness towards others might not originate in the same disability to accept divergent views of the world, and those qualities can therefore not be judged independently of each other, unless personal development allows for retaining one while shedding the other.
Similarly, but in reverse, Surma's greater capability in handling emotions may also have allowed her to deceive Reynardine much more easily into thinking that she loved him. People have pointed this out already, but the link between how both power and powerlessness may lead to abusive behaviour must be made clear, I believe.
|
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Mar 31, 2015 19:56:33 GMT
I do not believe that his efforts to save her were fruitless even though he could not save her, but I didn't intend to ask about that. Rather, I'm curious if the interplay of extreme devotion and dickishness towards others might not both originate in the same disability to accept divergent views of the world, and can therefore not be judged independently of each other, unless personal development allows for retaining one while shedding the other. I'd argue that Anthony might have been conditioned to better himself if his friends were more willing to critique some of his less positive behavior. I mean some people do change, but it's usually owed to criticism rather than their friends and peers accepting things the way they are. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 19:59:17 GMT
True that
(if it is possible at all)
|
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Mar 31, 2015 20:11:24 GMT
That said, I can't say whether Annie finally standing up to him would do anything. It would be good for her in being less afraid, but if he truly value's Donald as a friend, I imagine that said pal voicing some stern (while not hateful) criticism would at least prompt Tony to consider that he's not always right.
|
|
|
|
Post by kagredon on Mar 31, 2015 22:55:14 GMT
man I know the powers that be of the Court have some...unorthodox ideas about how to run a school, but it still seems weird that they'd be okay with a new teacher swooping in and unilaterally deciding that a student should be held back in all subjects. Still leaning towards the "this is all some weird test of Antimony's control" theory
|
|
|
|
Post by hypixion on Mar 31, 2015 23:46:16 GMT
So, will we get a real new page tomorrow or an april fools one?
|
|
|
|
Post by todd on Apr 1, 2015 0:23:49 GMT
what is presumably one of the most excellent schools in the world Mr. Carver claims that the Court knew about Annie's cheating sometime ago. I see three possibilities: 1) He's lying about that. 2) Gunnerkrigg Court is not in any sense a conventional school. They actually don't care about the subjects they are purportedly teaching. They are instead attempting to teach something else - without being detected by any but the most exceptional students. Annie is at or near the top of her class in every subject except history and biology. 3) All the other teachers Annie has had, with the possible exception of her history and biology teachers, are incompetent. Probably the school administration as well. Because otherwise, someone would have approached her about the matter... explicitly, not vague hints, and laying out possible consequences. 2) may be the likeliest explanation - especially in light of what we've seen of the Court in the past. The events of "The Torn Sea" are an obvious example; the Court either fails to notice the Seraphs and ship stealing a lot of important school equipment and setting up a big scheme, or allows it to happen. Its strictures to keep the students from wandering about at night are easily overcome, they seemingly pay no attention to Annie building a robot and sending it across the bridge, they're carrying out experiments with the ether that are causing Zimmy anguish (and lead to further troubles once Jack gets pulled into her world and comes back possessed by a demon-spider) and yet apparently carry on with them, etc. I suspect that the Court will overlook or tolerate anything that it can exploit to carry out its goals, whatever they are. (And, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's engaged in a lot of things just as bad as cheating on school tests, if not worse.) This might be all the more likely since the adults at the Court with the most prominent roles to date (Mr. and Mrs. Donlan, Eglamore, maybe Jones - though she's in a category by herself) are hardly inept. (We don't know enough about the Headmaster to be certain about him.) |
|
|
|
Post by todd on Apr 1, 2015 0:24:51 GMT
So, will we get a real new page tomorrow or an april fools one? I hope a real page. Holding up the story at this point just for the sake of a joke would be cruel. |
|
|
|
Post by atteSmythe on Apr 1, 2015 0:26:12 GMT
man I know the powers that be of the Court have some...unorthodox ideas about how to run a school, but it still seems weird that they'd be okay with a new teacher swooping in and unilaterally deciding that a student should be held back in all subjects. Still leaning towards the "this is all some weird test of Antimony's control" theory Keep in mind he's both teacher and parent, though. I can understand a school accepting a parent's request that their own child be held back. |
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 1, 2015 1:43:14 GMT
That's my queue... Maybe human-fire elemental hybrids reproduce by spontaneous pregnancy in their mid-twenties. Anthony is not Annie's biological father because she has no father. Anthony's actions towards Annie are a continuation of his attempt to help Surma, maybe even a promise he made to Surma before she died. Also would explain why Annie looks so much like Surma and why Annie might be asexual and/or aromantic. /speculation (that currently has no in-comic basis) Anthony is really Annie's father www.chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=annie+anthony+daughterLet me put on my +2 Hat of Tinfoil. There we go... Maybe Tom has changed his mind since he provide that clear answer. Wow, that is some hat! |
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Apr 1, 2015 2:06:37 GMT
Let me put on my +2 Hat of Tinfoil. There we go... Maybe Tom has changed his mind since he provide that clear answer. Wow, that is some hat! Nize hat. You must be schmott guy. |
|
|
|
Post by SilverbackRon on Apr 1, 2015 2:38:31 GMT
I agree with this. So far all we have seen is the beginning; we have not yet been given further information on Anthony, what his plans are, what he was doing, what his goals are now. I think many are judging him before knowing everything and casting him in a light based on previous chapters. What if he is NOT HER FATHER? What if Surma and Eglamore had a fight and broke up and she was pregnant and TONY manned up to take care of her... That could explain why Eglamore doesn't understand why she chose Tony, perhaps it was to save him the grief of her passing due to having a child. Wouldnt THAT be a bomb for Tony to drop. *(The preceding was all wild speculation from the Aether, keep calm and carry on.) All of this aside I think I still like Anthony and look forward to finding out more. says Annie really is Anthony's daughter. Yes, Tom doesn't say word for word "Anthony is Antimony's biological father" but that seems close. (perhaps a little wiggle room there?  ) The awesome compilation at Chrysoprax's page is pretty cool. Type in "Anthony" and you come up with 152 hits. True, about half of the questions Tom deflects with the answer "it remains to be seen" or something similar... Edit: Crap! I didn't notice @snipertom already posted this very thing. Oh well. |
|
|
|
Post by rafk on Apr 1, 2015 8:32:37 GMT
This whole sorry situation is HIS fault alone, abondonning her daughter and then chastising her for something that would easily be avoided had he been a decent parent, but no, he didn't, cause he's a jerk. Whoa whoa whoa, let's get something straight here. Yeah, Anthony's a jerk for running off like he did, but he did NOT create this situation. This situation was created by Annie and Annie alone. She chose to cheat, and continued to do so just because it was easy and she was getting away with it. And this happened so frequently, that the missed work is enough to drop her back a whole grade. That is her fault. Period. Now, what options she will be given once a proper case has been made in her favor by Kat is still up in the air. But following the letter of the law here, Anthony's recommendation that she be sent back a grade is about right. Leaving aside that this is her dad, and that the court should have addressed this ages ago, he's not doing anything over the top or out of the ordinary by making that decision. As far as I'm concerned, Anthony is only an antagonist by virtue of going up against our much-loved hero. But in a neutral position, I'm fairly certain nearly all of you would take his side on this. Anthony is an antagonist because he ignored his daughter for 2 years and then ambushed her like this. Also the unnecessarily malicious behaviour to her in class before pronouncing this punishment. It isn't unreasonable for the Court to punish Annie for cheating. It is not however a reasonable way for a parent to act the first time he sees his daughter in 2 years. |
|
)
