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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 2, 2015 9:51:14 GMT
The problem is that (assuming that it is a compound and not a process) there's about a dozen things it could be and half of them make sense with the comic. If you open the door for "SM" being an abbreviation for a process phrase that adds another seven or eight possibilities I'm sure that's a huge underestimate... ^Shorthand for a commonly-used process phrase, assuming Latin or English, maybe half that make sense with the comic currently... but the other half could be predictive. Forgot to say earlier that I think the frame is the bridge. |
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Post by Ophel on Jan 2, 2015 11:56:19 GMT
There's just so many points to go through, I'm already tired! Where to start? _____ He~y! There's that other Mercury symbol! The chapter title Quicksilver makes more sense to me now! (so zetta slow) _____ elemenofy: Once again, the shadow was indeed a good catch! Oh the things that we miss... I cannot help but hope that it's Anthony! _____ The moon, or specifically crescent, according to alchemy, does indeed represent the mind (or at least receptivity). So at the very least, the moon behind Ys, would very well be representative of his mind, and the dot (or the seed of potential if you prefer) may be symbolic of his removed memories. Also, I agree that the moon behind Kat does look like an eclipse. And it does appear that the Moon is waning over time through the treatises, but it doesn't seem like a solid trend. Who knows? (Tom does) _____ The Coyote eye of the sun is indeed fixed on Annie, but I also perceive the pupil of the Coyote Eye on Annie's dress is indeed off-centre, and it does look like it's fixated on Annie. _____ Also there was one treatise that also happen to have no apparent bird symbolism. It is also the treatise where the moon is only in a poster, as opposed to a symbol converse to the sun, and (possibly) the moonlight is disconnectedly represented by those stringed lights. _____ As for the lines, possibly just design error/quirks? _____ Honestly, if I was Tom, it would really be hard for me not to give a little hint or acknowledgement at some of these speculation. Thankfully, I'm not. |
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freeman
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Post by freeman on Jan 2, 2015 13:28:15 GMT
I don't see why everyone assumes that thing to be Hetty; I see just a normal wooden mannequin doll, you know the art-class kind. As of the burned earth, I'd interpret it as Annie having harmful effect to the forest. Or, if not being directly harmful, at least she would do something that shakes the long status quo between the court and the forest, making her a controversial figure in both sides. Example being the visitor program thing she promised for the green fairy to set up. Tony's shadow is a worrysome sign, basically telling that even if he hasn't been seen lately, he's still pretty much active. Also, is there actually much foreshadowing in these treatises? As of fifth treatise, the only foreshadowy thing that there really was was the peacock feather and crossed over heart verifying her then suppressed sexual orientation; all the rest of the symbolism there pretty much referred to things that already had happened: the divine cartwheel of photo resistors, microsat5, bonelaser bones, dementic Ysengrin and shadow-robot friendship. So, what is there in this treatise what may still reside in the future? Things that have happened: fire over Renard is basically what happened in "Quicksilver", there's Morty's helmet, Kat being the creator, followed by robots with one ominous prophetic figure in in the background. There's also the Zimmy-Gamma-Jack Love(craftian) triangle. If I'd have to interpret the moon behind Ysengrin, I'd say it would refer him regaining sanity, possibly through his improved relationship whit Annie after "Crash Course". - The biggest question mark is undoubtedly the lower triangle of fire - mercury - SM (Spiritus Mundi?). Annie - Renard - "Genesis / awakening"? Why inside the symbol of water?
- What is the significance of the doll on the Court side?
- Moon behind Ysengrin on the forest side, coyote being the sun?
Also, is it just me or does the moon look like the Eclipse logo? I saw the old AT&T "Death Star" logo. |
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Post by Gulby on Jan 2, 2015 16:51:43 GMT
[...] that chapter in particular is not very easy to divine reliable information from. [...] Nice touch !  |
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Post by hypixion on Jan 2, 2015 17:10:05 GMT
Rey has gone supersaiyan
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Post by stef1987 on Jan 2, 2015 18:17:17 GMT
I thought the treatise mostly represents things that already happened? this one definitely seems to be at least mostly. (that sounds like a weird sentence, but I don't really know how to say it better so I'm leaving it like that)with Mort and the robots and the fairy and the dead robot next to the tree. (the "doll"-thing looks to me more like the old frankenstein-robot Kat briefly resurrected than Hetty) Also, Kat's clothes remind me A LOT of Diego's clothes www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=648The symbol of the circle with the dot first showed up here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=642 on the King Robot's sign. So it's definitely robot related. not necessarily, those banners also depict the tic-tocs, and those aren't directly robot related. (see www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=646)it could mean the wandering eye or something similar |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 2, 2015 19:43:22 GMT
The symbolism could be foreshadowing or it could be an aspect of something that happened that we don't understand yet... like "I" might refer to Jenny.
Okay, my window of time around the holidays is coming to a close so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "SM" is a made-up or non-traditional thing and the triangles are just triangles around triads, not a split prism or science-tree. Points in favor of this theory: simplicity and symmetry. Kat's made-up "Creator" symbol isn't represented in the triangles if "SM" doesn't refer to Kat somehow; assuming "I" for Jack/Jenny and delta for "Antimony" then it follows that "SM" would be Kat's symbol energized or in motion. I'll translate "SM" then as "Spiritus [Electro-]Magnetisimi because that's the closest thing that fits.
The effects of Paz can be seen on a major character but again, no Paz.
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Post by brilliantgrey on Jan 3, 2015 5:26:45 GMT
I have always seen the circle-with-a-dot symbol as an eye (upper left of the tree) as an eye representing the tic-tocs watching the court.
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 3, 2015 6:59:03 GMT
Also, is there actually much foreshadowing in these treatises? Definitely; for example, in this treatise, it directly depicts the rocket that would be launched 23 chapters later. Anything is fair game. the tic-tocs, and those aren't directly robot related Where did you ever get that idea? The Robots don't know all of the specifics, but they're closely related somehow. That much has been made clear. |
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Post by calpal on Jan 3, 2015 7:55:26 GMT
I think for the possibilities of what's being hinted at in the next Treatise, there's two things that stand out to me the most: 1) the Shadow Man. Nothing in the last chapters ever really looked at the Shadowmen before, and there wasn't really any focus on Shadow at all - even during the start of Changes, which is moreso the last Treatise - so we might either see more of him and/or the Shadowmen created by Coyote. Another possibility is that the Shadow refers to Anthony Carver, whom we might see more of in the coming chapters. Haven't heard much of him since, well... I think Chapter 38 was the last time Annie's father was mentioned, and Microsat 5 was about the closest chapter we got to being dedicated towards Anthony. We could definitely see something with that in the near future. But I think even moreso than that; 2) the Court Symbol on Kat's apron. First, the symbol is already highlighted; I don't know from what source of light that's coming from, but that Court Symbol can't be lighting up on its own. I do not recall a time where that symbol has been worn other than Spring Heeled, Part 2 (as mentioned in this thread), so that's a very, very long time since it came into play. But there's more to it than just that. There's something EXTREMELY OFF about Kat having that symbol on her. She hates, absolutely despises what the Court represents; they killed Jeanne and that made her very bitter, they denied Annie as the Court Medium, and won't someone please think of the mice?! Yet despite all of that, she wears the Symbol on her chest... why? Does she gain a more favourable view of the Court somehow? Does she - *gasp* - end up working for them somehow?! Perhaps they are intrigued with her scientific abilities and, most notably, her specialty in robots (regardless of the ever-growing cult that surrounds her). But something is rotten in the state of Gunnerkrigg where Kat wears the Court Symbol so blatantly, and I hope a chapter might be hinted at here. |
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Post by stef1987 on Jan 3, 2015 8:55:04 GMT
the tic-tocs, and those aren't directly robot related Where did you ever get that idea? The Robots don't know all of the specifics, but they're closely related somehow. That much has been made clear. When has that been made clear? The only (and only indirect) relation I can see is the court, simply because the tic-tocs watch over the court. All there has ever been said about the tic-tocs is that they have been there since before the court, they're not manmade, Zimmy can't stand their stare, and they saved Annie one time. So where did you ever get that idea? |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 3, 2015 16:50:57 GMT
Where did you ever get that idea? The Robots don't know all of the specifics, but they're closely related somehow. That much has been made clear. When has that been made clear? The only (and only indirect) relation I can see is the court, simply because the tic-tocs watch over the court. All there has ever been said about the tic-tocs is that they have been there since before the court, they're not manmade, Zimmy can't stand their stare, and they saved Annie one time. So where did you ever get that idea? It may be debatable how clear it is, but I believe Page 646 is where some think the Bots and the Tic-Tocs are related. This page does make it clear that the Bots choose to associate themselves with the Tic-Toc(s): 1. The Bots put the Tic-Toc at the top of their banners. Like people put eagles at the top of their emblems, flag poles, totem poles, etc, to for the association with the power/nobility/divinity represented by an eagle. 2. They call the Tic-Toc mythical. The Bots are not just recognizing the existence of a mythical story, they've incorporated this one into part of their own identity. The Bots choice to recognize (at least knowing and utilizing instead of noting and ignoring) the Tic-Toc myth is one of their "odd" behaviors that make them different than stereotypical robots. 3. They call the Tic-Toc an Ornithonic. Tom derived that word ornithic (of, relating to, or characteristic of birds) and, I think it is logical to to say, he combined ornithic with bionic (having artificial body parts, especially electromechanical ones). If you accept that conjecture, then the Bots acknowledge that the Tic-Tocs are electromechanical and are therefore robot-like. |
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stci
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Post by stci on Jan 6, 2015 12:10:18 GMT
Possibly nothing, but the tree in the treatise looks like a healthier version of the one in the last panel of #607. Both have seven branches and four roots. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 6, 2015 15:37:36 GMT
Possibly nothing, but the tree in the treatise looks like a healthier version of the one in the last panel of #607. Both have seven branches and four roots. Good eye! Maybe that is Tom's image of an ideal tree, before it becomes an angst-filled teenage tree. |
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Post by Sauzels on Jan 14, 2015 8:55:37 GMT
I was going to joke that the shadow was Bob (like in his first appearance), who will now have a much more important role. ...But the possibility of that being the arm-tree makes that actually slightly more likely. And the tree seems really likely, especially since we've yet to see its real significance (I think?), or that of the seeds Grinnygrins dropped on his first appearance in this comic. Also, Coyote's eye on Annie's shirt looks to be in the same—similar, at least—position to Zimmy's shirt circle, which Tom has said relates to a minor spoiler. Lastly, I'm pretty sure the lines on Renard's left foreleg are just shading and have nothing to do with the ones one the moon. Look, you can also see them behind his right leg. Speaking of that moon, I think it's kinda funny/possibly interesting that the lit part of the moon is facing away from Coyote-Sun. |
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freeman
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Post by freeman on Apr 26, 2015 13:22:26 GMT
Bumping up.
So, what would you think of the lower triangle of "fire - mercury - SM", given fire is quite obviously Annie and mercury is Rey, is this now resolved now that Anthony has showed up?
What sort of qualities would SM imply? "Spirit of the world". It's amoungst the more obscure alchemy stuff, but what I have gathered, it would not be any sort of element, more like what the concept of aether is in GC.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Apr 26, 2015 22:06:41 GMT
If you take the bottom symbols as being the elements each character specializes in, you have: Annie specializes in fire, Rey/Ysengrin specializes in mercury, Kat specializes in ____. Because science in the story has been deeply tied to the aether, it makes sense that SM as Spiritus Mundi best represents the aether.
Since this was bumped, I guess we should at least put in writing the confirmation that the shadow looming behind Annie was indeed Anthony after all.
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Post by gunnerwf on Apr 27, 2015 2:28:54 GMT
If I'm not mistaken the treatises mostly touch on past events. I don't think many of the stuff in the treatise is for the future. That being said I believe that we may get more of Zimmy, Gamma, and Jack soon.
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freeman
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Post by freeman on Apr 27, 2015 13:22:00 GMT
If you take the bottom symbols as being the elements each character specializes in, you have: Annie specializes in fire, Rey/Ysengrin specializes in mercury, Kat specializes in ____. Because science in the story has been deeply tied to the aether, it makes sense that SM as Spiritus Mundi best represents the aether. Since this was bumped, I guess we should at least put in writing the confirmation that the shadow looming behind Annie was indeed Anthony after all. No, no, kat has the creator symbol. I'm fairly sure that the lower triangle was foreshadowing for this new Anthony appropriating Rey -situation. All that is left is to have more educated guesses of what SM exactly stands for and why it is associated with Anthony. |
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Post by theleakingpen on Apr 27, 2015 16:33:22 GMT
Someone mentioned the seed bismuth symbol not being quite right, I talked about that on the wild spec thread Very intriguingly, the symbol for bismuth, as in the seed bismuth, a wonderful agent of change, imo, is NOT traditionally the one we see used in Gunnerkrig Court to represent it. Its similar, but the horns stretch through 75 percent of the circle with a small gap at the top, and both the base circle and the horns are stretched vertically. The symbol used by the court appears to be the top of quicksilver, minus the plus at the bottom given to it by sulfur, the symbol of the spirit. The symbol of the court seems to me to be literally saying , base matter of the world, powered by the sun, changed and grown under the influence of the moon, but bereft of spirit. I'm waiting for a triangle with a plus, topped by a crescent, to show up as a symbol of the forest somewhere. As for SM spiritus mundi, as mentioned, is the spirit of the world, but also, in the Great Work, is a name given for the agent of change within the soul that completes the Work. (Alchemy is as much an internal spiritual growth as a chemical process). While also called the breath of the world, it really ties in with water, meaning change, as does silver and the moon, symbols often identified with Kat. So SM, mixed with Fire, an agent of destruction and recreation, results in quicksilver, a symbol of balance and the completed Work. Now, the thing i find interesting and have no idea WHY is that the bottom is an equilateral triangle, adn the top is not. (edit, cause I'm a moron. I made a quick protractor to determine the angles in the top triangle. and... its a right triangle. im an idiot. ) you usually see pairs of triangles, congruent, or equilateral, or right, not a mix. some examples, azothalchemy.org/images/Azoth.jpg spiritus and moon a bird representing wind and change in one corner, and the salamandar and fire and sun in the other, Leading to the philosophers stone in the bottom. Jan 2, 2015 4:56:19 GMT -7 Ophel said: Also there was one treatise that also happen to have no apparent bird symbolism. It is also the treatise where the moon is only in a poster, as opposed to a symbol converse to the sun, and (possibly) the moonlight is disconnectedly represented by those stringed lights. _____ center of the arch, above "AER" , looks like an outline of a bird to me, very similar outline to what one often sees for pelican or the black bird Speaking of stylistic elements though, I noticed a couple things. Shadows and light. From an artists perspective, shadows and light are very important, and generally mismatched light sources show right up. but I totally missed this at first! The tree is lit from Annie's side, and is in shadow on Kats. And Kat us also lit by , i'd say, the coyote eye sun. But Annie isnt! She's lit from Kat's side. By the moon, based on angles. And yet... the light on Kat is silver, on Annie gold. Looking at the shadows on other elements, I caught something else. Bottom center. gold paneling.... the frame goes all the way around. the bricks and bush are in FRONT of the frame. So the bush with the faerie in it isn't part of the scene, the faerie is an observer just like us, of what appears to be an actual painting. one that was previously covered in a brick wall, falling down and being taken over by the wild. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Apr 28, 2015 8:08:37 GMT
Yeah, it's interesting that the two triangles are different. I suspect they're being used together here as a way to emphasize that they aren't related to each other, ie it's not two triangles opposed, just two triangles representing different things. Which falls in line with other stuff mentioned in this thread about them, at least. Although I haven't a clue why they're specifically an equilateral and a right triangle. If you take the bottom symbols as being the elements each character specializes in, you have: Annie specializes in fire, Rey/Ysengrin specializes in mercury, Kat specializes in ____. Because science in the story has been deeply tied to the aether, it makes sense that SM as Spiritus Mundi best represents the aether. Since this was bumped, I guess we should at least put in writing the confirmation that the shadow looming behind Annie was indeed Anthony after all. No, no, kat has the creator symbol. Uh, yeah, but that's covered by the actual creator symbol sitting outside the triangle. Her symbol is what she is not what she uses. And Anthony is foreshadowed by the literal foreshadow. There's no further symbolism referring to him, or if there is, it's referring to information we haven't been provided with yet in the story. |
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Post by gunnerwf on May 1, 2015 0:34:06 GMT
Tom's retrospective for chapter 22 made me realize that the treatise could be referring to things far in the future, trends going on in the story. For instance the stone woman in Treatise 3 might be a reference to Jones, her story which isn't revealed until chapter 40. It leads me to believe there will be a story involving Zimmy, Gamma, and Jack sometime in the future. It also leads me to believe(and for other reasons also)that Annie's ban from the forest won't last long.
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Post by CarbonRabbit on May 1, 2015 4:39:59 GMT
I'll be slightly less lazy by saying the first and last are the only ones that show Kat and Annie entirely apart. All the others have them connected in some shape or form. And now, back to the shadows from whence I came. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 5:21:35 GMT
That post inspired me to look through all of them; below are my thoughts are in the treatise thread. |
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Post by drmemory on Jan 21, 2021 6:18:41 GMT
Sorry to necro this ancient thread, but I think we know a lot more now, and can answer a couple of the mysteries. I was going to post about this anyway but searched first and found this long discussion of p.1452, so here we are. Anyway: The symbol on Kat's apron is the symbol of the Shadow Men. Not the ones Coyote created but the secret org inside the court that includes Arthur and Juliette. And possibly Tony, methinks - he clearly has influence with them and maybe power - one example is how he shooed them away from Kat's lab and made it so she could still work there despite the evacuation. So given that, SM probably means "Shadow Men", aye? So we have SM balancing fire in the Kat water triangle, with Mercury at the bottom. I still don't understand why Kat would be wearing the symbol of the Shadow Men but she is. That's some quality long-term foreshadowing there! We didn't officially learn about the Shadow Men until p.1840! I'm not sure that everything about this is fully known even now. Did we ever learn for sure who Iota is, in Annie's fire triangle? Zimmy on top, and Iota and Gamma in the other two corners. I feel like maybe Mercury and Iota are still not known definitively. Even if Iota is just part of a set with Zimmy and Gamma rather than someone roughly equivalent to Gamma in some way, I don't know who would fill that role. Jack doesn't seem to have any sort of ongoing relationship with those two as far as I know, but I have no better candidate. Another symmetry - Annie is wearing a badge that sure looks like it represents Coyote, very much like the sun in this same picture, and that all makes sense. Annie and Coyote go together nicely. But again, why the heck is Kat wearing a Shadow Man emblem? Does this represent something that still has yet to happen maybe? As long as I'm stirring this up, given that Kat is shown wearing the Shadow Men sigil, and given that Tony has some link to them and is deep in the court and also has worked with Kat and knows about Shadow and Robot and Arthur... could it be that Kat is effectively working for the court thanks to Tony? Like, is he passing along everything he knows, either on purpose or because he's being monitored closely? Maybe I'm reading too much into this, of course. I just feel like Kat should be far more paranoid about protecting her work from the court, especially after they stole her mother's shield tech. They probably know all about the ancient bots and her new race, or will soon.  Etiquette question - is it ok that I necro-ed this ancient thread that talked about p.1452 and added new info, or would it have been better to start a new thread and just refer to it? Sorry if I violated some tradition by doing it this way! |
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Post by fia on Jan 23, 2021 19:10:13 GMT
So given that, SM probably means "Shadow Men", aye? So we have SM balancing fire in the Kat water triangle, with Mercury at the bottom. I still don't understand why Kat would be wearing the symbol of the Shadow Men but she is. That's some quality long-term foreshadowing there! We didn't officially learn about the Shadow Men until p.1840! I think 'SM' is likelier the alchemical symbol meaning "substances metalliques": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_affinityBut it's possible it also means the Shadow Men? Tom's sneaky so lots of things may have multiple meanings. With some perspective and distance I'm thinking the bottom triangle represents Annie (fire triangle and Renard's (Mercury symbol) connection through the arrow being linked up to the robots (Substances Metalliques), perhaps designating the symbolic ascent of the robots. Could also mean the shadow men. But I like my theory! I'm not sure that everything about this is fully known even now. Did we ever learn for sure who Iota is, in Annie's fire triangle? Zimmy on top, and Iota and Gamma in the other two corners. I feel like maybe Mercury and Iota are still not known definitively. Even if Iota is just part of a set with Zimmy and Gamma rather than someone roughly equivalent to Gamma in some way, I don't know who would fill that role. Jack doesn't seem to have any sort of ongoing relationship with those two as far as I know, but I have no better candidate. Not that this is super helpful, but Gamma is the 3rd letter in the Greek alphabet, Zeta the 6th, and Iota the 9th. 3-6-9. Lots of triangle numbers for some reason. It probably is Jack, honestly, because of the love triangle, to be quite literal. Etiquette question - is it ok that I necro-ed this ancient thread that talked about p.1452 and added new info, or would it have been better to start a new thread and just refer to it? Sorry if I violated some tradition by doing it this way! You did the right thing I think, we necro threads all the time here  |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 23, 2021 19:53:28 GMT
Sorry to necro this ancient thread, but I think we know a lot more now, and can answer a couple of the mysteries. I was going to post about this anyway but searched first and found this long discussion of p.1452, so here we are. Anyway: The symbol on Kat's apron is the symbol of the Shadow Men. Not the ones Coyote created but the secret org inside the court that includes Arthur and Juliette. And possibly Tony, methinks - he clearly has influence with them and maybe power - one example is how he shooed them away from Kat's lab and made it so she could still work there despite the evacuation. So given that, SM probably means "Shadow Men", aye? So we have SM balancing fire in the Kat water triangle, with Mercury at the bottom. I still don't understand why Kat would be wearing the symbol of the Shadow Men but she is. That's some quality long-term foreshadowing there! We didn't officially learn about the Shadow Men until p.1840! I'm not sure that everything about this is fully known even now. Did we ever learn for sure who Iota is, in Annie's fire triangle? Zimmy on top, and Iota and Gamma in the other two corners. I feel like maybe Mercury and Iota are still not known definitively. Even if Iota is just part of a set with Zimmy and Gamma rather than someone roughly equivalent to Gamma in some way, I don't know who would fill that role. Jack doesn't seem to have any sort of ongoing relationship with those two as far as I know, but I have no better candidate. Another symmetry - Annie is wearing a badge that sure looks like it represents Coyote, very much like the sun in this same picture, and that all makes sense. Annie and Coyote go together nicely. But again, why the heck is Kat wearing a Shadow Man emblem? Does this represent something that still has yet to happen maybe? As long as I'm stirring this up, given that Kat is shown wearing the Shadow Men sigil, and given that Tony has some link to them and is deep in the court and also has worked with Kat and knows about Shadow and Robot and Arthur... could it be that Kat is effectively working for the court thanks to Tony? Like, is he passing along everything he knows, either on purpose or because he's being monitored closely? Maybe I'm reading too much into this, of course. I just feel like Kat should be far more paranoid about protecting her work from the court, especially after they stole her mother's shield tech. They probably know all about the ancient bots and her new race, or will soon. Etiquette question - is it ok that I necro-ed this ancient thread that talked about p.1452 and added new info, or would it have been better to start a new thread and just refer to it? Sorry if I violated some tradition by doing it this way! I think Kat is a lot more connected to the Shadow Men than you might think. Remember, Jeanne was a member of the Shadow Men (possibly its founder, actually) and she and Kat are similarly worshiped by the robots. Also, even if Tony isn't passing things along to the higher-ups (which doesn't seem very much like him, in my opinion), Kat is still working very closely with two bona-fide Shadow Men, namely Juliette and Arthur.
In general, I think the Shadow Men are used in this case as kind of a parallel with Coyote: always working behind the scenes and keeping things running in the Court, just like Coyote's "branches" keep the Forest's magic vibrant. Neither the Court nor the Forest has a very conventional governing body, but the Shadow Men and the Headmaster are pretty much the only glimpses we've been able to get so far of the inner bureaucracy that actually runs the Court. So even if Kat isn't specifically affiliated with the Shadow Men, it makes sense she'd be shown with their symbol in order to represent her affiliation with the Court in general.
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