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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 31, 2014 21:55:07 GMT
Thanks for the kind words! And so... much... more... to talk about...  He is in all treatises, except the first. His ear seams to be healing, and he may be shaking off the tree body. Annie's friendship is doing him good, and he sees eye to eye with Renard I didn't notice that Ysengrin had his right ear in the second and third treatise. And in the third treatise there is the Bismuth symbol over his ear. Now that I see it, I think it is fairly clear that he lost is ear in a tussle with the Court (Anthony?). In addition to Ysengrin's right ear being symbolically disconnected in the fifth treatise, part if his mind is also symbolically disconnected. Has anyone else noticed the lurking shadow of a tall man on Annie / The Forest's side of the Treatise? His long legs start just below the bush, his body is behind Ysengrin and his head is right next to Y under the moon. Who could that be? Is it the shadow of Anthony Carver? Or could it be Daniel R. Schiff ... Good catch! I really would like to see Anthony, but wouldn't he come from the Court side? Maybe Anthony is hiding in the forest. That's where everyone would least expect him to be. The Court couldn't look there. The trick would be evading Coyote, Ysengrin, all the forest monsters, and all the forest folk. Piece of cake! |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 31, 2014 22:20:08 GMT
Going back to my first comment that the moon symbol may represent the Mecha-Angel, the glimpse of the Mecha-Angel we've seen didn't have visible eyes. Just things going into her head where the eyes should be. Somewhat similar to how Coyote sometimes appears in the ether, but Coyote has a blue ribbon with multiple "eyes". The Mecha-Angel seems to have ribbon cables for eyelashes and four really disturbing feeds (a ribbon with multiple "eyes", barbed wire, spear tips, and a backbone???). I always had the headcanon that the pigeon on her head acts as her eyes and those ribbon cables connect to it by looping around the panel, but I have nothing to back that up really. Now I am seeing a nightmare scene where the robots decide that their Angel has to be upgraded with " communication ports" because all human senses are " too... inefficient for the level of complexity required" for her work to progress quickly enough. But then again, maybe Kat will gouge her own eyes out and jam those feeds in her optic nerves herself. Or whatever cracks the Mecha-Angel's skull also knocks her eyes out, so it's just a logical substitution (whether Kat makes the decision or not). Or most like, the feeds into the eyes of the Mecha-Angel are just symbolic of information. But barbed wire, spears, and backbones... does the symbolism have to be so disturbing? |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 31, 2014 22:53:36 GMT
Jelly Jellybean: wow, you *are* chatty today!  Anthony in the Forest is an interesting idea, but I thought it was relatively well-established that he's in space at least part of the time. Maybe he lands in the Forest later? And as for the 'communication ports' scenario you describe...that would be extremely, um, symbolic and interesting, but she already has the cables to her eyes here. They seem less spiky, but it might just be because the page I linked to is drawn in Tom's non-realistic less-detailed style.
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Post by arf on Dec 31, 2014 23:03:12 GMT
This treatise seems to be about balance (with the radiant seed Bismuth at the tree's apex)
That would make the next layer Coyote and Wandering Eye.
Iack and Gamma balance Zeta.
Not knowing the meaning of SM it isn't clear how quicksilver is being balanced. Or stabilizing, since it's at the base.
I wonder if the shadow man is meant to balance the robots?
Someone pointed out that there are no birds. Paz has become much more prominent in the story and there's no indication that that's going to change, yet there are no clear references to her at all.
Anyone care to tackle the meaning of Kat and Annie's posture? Kat appears to be taking something proffered By Annie.
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 31, 2014 23:09:09 GMT
Anyone care to tackle the meaning of Kat and Annie's posture? Kat appears to be taking something proffered By Annie. Or Kat is waving goodbye to Annie, as the latter beckons her to come to the more peaceful side of the panel. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 31, 2014 23:30:49 GMT
Jelly Jellybean: wow, you *are* chatty today! Anthony in the Forest is an interesting idea, but I thought it was relatively well-established that he's in space at least part of the time. Maybe he lands in the Forest later? And as for the 'communication ports' scenario you describe...that would be extremely, um, symbolic and interesting, but she already has the cables to her eyes here. They seem less spiky, but it might just be because the page I linked to is drawn in Tom's non-realistic less-detailed style. The less refined Mecha-Angel may be because Kat is only partially developed at this point. I also think we're seeing the Mecha-Angel through the Seraphs and/or Paz, as opposed to seeing her through Zimmy and her significantly more experienced mind. |
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brokshi
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About as furious as my icon appears ecstatic.
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Post by brokshi on Jan 1, 2015 1:29:50 GMT
The less refined Mecha-Angel may be because Kat is only partially developed at this point. I also think we're seeing the Mecha-Angel through the Seraphs and/or Paz, as opposed to seeing her through Zimmy and her significantly more experienced mind. I'm fairly sure that's just because we'd seen it before and it didn't need to be drawn in as high detail as before. We can easily tell it's the same figure, just from further away, obscured by smoke, and in a much smaller panel. Though it is missing the crack along its face, that much is probably because it hasn't happened yet. |
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pasko
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Objection!
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Post by pasko on Jan 1, 2015 2:07:38 GMT
i find the lack of Paz disturbing.
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bmat
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Post by bmat on Jan 1, 2015 2:26:29 GMT
It makes sense that the doll figure reclining on the tree near Kat is Hettie, but I thought of Jeanne whose body is reclining in a similar position and who is also dead. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=765 |
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Post by Chancellor on Jan 1, 2015 6:59:25 GMT
Getting real close to the screen and squinting hard, I am pretty certain that is Hetty's symbol on the tree doll thing.
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Post by snipertom on Jan 1, 2015 8:12:38 GMT
Here is a summary of a bunch of things that we've found:  not pictured: hetty's symbol and a few other things |
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Post by snipertom on Jan 1, 2015 9:13:52 GMT
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Post by eightyfour on Jan 1, 2015 9:21:11 GMT
I interpret the "unhealthy/burnt grass" Annie is standing on as a fresh grave. Mort's grave, to be specific, as his helmet is right next to what would be the head end. Annie standing on it may seem a bit morbid, but Mort's "second" death (him passing into the aether) was a major milestone in Annie's development as a guide after all.
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Post by Ashley Y on Jan 1, 2015 9:57:11 GMT
Note the Sun/Moon/fire triple on each side. On the Court side, the Sun (standard planetary symbol) is near the top, the Moon is above Kat, and fire is with Reynardine. On the Forest side, fire (as Antimony's fire spike) is near the top, the Sun (as Coyote) is above Antimony, and the Moon is with Ysengrin.
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Post by Ashley Y on Jan 1, 2015 10:03:17 GMT
More than Diego, I think Kat's outfit is the traditional garb of an apprentice. She's an apprentice aether-worker, I guess.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 1, 2015 10:36:52 GMT
Whatever SM is it has to be a compound. After trying to force it to fit Paz for a good while (and being frustrated because of uncertainty of the start language being English, Latin, Spanish...) I started to question my original assumption that it had to be a person which led me to reexamine my assumption that "I" was a person (heh) because the triangles were equilateral (other two points = person therefore third point must also equal person) but the lower one isn't on closer examination. Since the unknowns are both on Court side this may be interaction (spirit of, salt of, sulfur-something) of the other two as represented in the chapter... it's really unfortunate from an interpretation standpoint. If that were not the case I'd just say it's SM as some alternate of SV, call it Paz and close the case.
[edit] On measuring the trinaggles are equaterical after all. Still not sure if they're a science tree or split prisms, tho. [/edit]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 16:31:59 GMT
The tree in the centre, I believe, is not the Tree of Life, but a (Llullian) Tree of Science. The roots of a joint science emerge from both the Court and the Forest. Look at how the leaves emerge in a spiral pattern, without petioles, and compare: www.historyofinformation.com/images/3862b%20Large.jpgThis particular tree appears quite slender (as do the two girls), but it's springtime. I wonder if those planetoid orbs, as well as the sun and moon, are meant to spring forth from the tree's branches. If so, that implies that this tree's fruit far exceed what you would reasonably expect. Maybe this is an illusion and the finalized fruit are hidden from sight, or have not yet grown, or are growing in the shade of those celestial bodies presently. There's moonlight on the foliage on Kat's side. Somebody in the thread has pointed that out already, but I think the sunlight that highlights the Forest side's branches and the trunk hasn't been mentioned yet. There's obviously a link here: leaves being nurtured by moonlight, which is essentially stolen sunlight (as Timon of Athens can tell you), suggests artificial and nocturnal life, but also its pallor. Kat's hair also shows reflections of moonlight, so it's tempting to assume that her mind is likewise nourished by moonlight. While the Court side looks grim, with the moon waning and the sky blackened, this development also heralds the new moon. It might be scheduled to have occurred by the time of the next treatise, even. Nobody has mentioned yet that the primary light source in this treatise is neither the sun nor the moon, but the Seed Bismuth. That said, the Coyote-Sun radiates twice as intensely as the moon. Sunlight and moonlight correspond to the girls' skintones and the canines' furs, and Reynardine's left front leg exhibits the same pattern of horizontal lines as has been used to fill out the moon's assumed circle. The Seed Bismuth cannot stand solely for the Court, as the Forest grew from the same source. Besides, it's located in the horizontal middle of the picture, above all else, apparently belonging to both sides in equal parts. The furrowed earth under Annie's feet looks like a triangle pointing upward (ooh, fire!) while story-wise, it originates from that meeting-place of the Court embassy and the denizens of the Forest, which had been revamped into a kind of avenue. Annie's gesture suggests both an offering, by showing her palm, and self-assertion, by touching her hip. She has apparently taken a step towards Kat. She's wearing sleeveless clothes: that's a recent development. Kat's slightly more defensive stance recalls a magician, and I think she made similar gestures while she was redesigning the cruise ship's body: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1432The angled elbows on both girls and the motif of a meeting between two people seem to be typical of Llullian Tree of Science illustrations, see above. One last thing about that tree: It appears that Annie and Kat have both grown from a common root and may find unison again in the Seed Bismuth - Art, perhaps, by which a nature-loving lifestyle and a scientific mind are joined. The various branching points of their personalities are as follows: first, the division of genus or curiosity, between Sun and Moon (original and derivative light); second, that of property or profession, between Creator and Medium (?); third, that of accident or temperament, between pure gold/a solar eclipse/Microsat 5/Jones (I'm not sure here) and the fire-elemental crown (I'm really running out of steam by this point). While Byzantine iconography has its own share of Medieval colour theory that I could amateurishly babble about, it's futile to apply it here when there's no clue about its influence on Gunnerkrigg Court. Finally, what might the golden frame signify, or the Seed's golden badge being part of the frame? What's the meaning behind those symmetrical ornaments of curly leaves and berries? Edit: Looks like Byron has already taken care of meta-commentary on my post |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 1, 2015 17:58:16 GMT
Sunlight and moonlight correspond to the girls' skintones and the canines' furs, and Reynardine's left front leg exhibits the same pattern of horizontal lines as has been used to fill out the moon's assumed circle. Nice catch on Reynard's left front leg. Reminds me of bandages, maybe foreshadowing an injury perhaps in a fight with someone/something. |
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Post by dawolf on Jan 1, 2015 22:45:57 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the leg poking out from under Mort's helmet? I don't recognise it from before, but is looks like an animal such as a deer. Given the location, does that mean that Mort is going to be reborn as an animal in the forest?
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Post by calpal on Jan 1, 2015 22:52:48 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the leg poking out from under Mort's helmet? I don't recognise it from before, but is looks like an animal such as a deer. Given the location, does that mean that Mort is going to be reborn as an animal in the forest? I'm sorry to report that the leg that you see is, in fact, a helmet strap. |
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Post by keef on Jan 1, 2015 22:53:23 GMT
Anthony in the Forest is an interesting idea, but I thought it was relatively well-established that he's in space at least part of the time. No way. Microsat 5, doesn't sound like a manned space-station does it? I guess he is still in Birmingham, or in the vicinity of the court. (spec) The message to Annie, and that stupid shopping list was nothing more than a pretext to get a lock on Annie. After that the satellite was probably used as an aiming device for the bone laser. I always had the horrible suspicion Donnie was in on this.(/spec) Next chapter? Happy 2015 Tom and everybody else!! Attachments:
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Post by arf on Jan 1, 2015 22:53:48 GMT
'SM' could be 'Spiritus Mundi': the World spirit, also called Nature. It appears as air but condenses as water, so its appearance at the top of the water triumvirate makes sense (insofar as any of this makes sense). The significance of nature balancing fire and toxic quicksilver. ..? |
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Post by dawolf on Jan 1, 2015 22:57:28 GMT
Has anyone else noticed the leg poking out from under Mort's helmet? I don't recognise it from before, but is looks like an animal such as a deer. Given the location, does that mean that Mort is going to be reborn as an animal in the forest? I'm sorry to report that the leg that you see is, in fact, a helmet strap. Ah dammit, so it is! |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 1, 2015 23:36:01 GMT
'SM' could be 'Spiritus Mundi': the World spirit, also called Nature. It appears as air but condenses as water, so its appearance at the top of the water triumvirate makes sense (insofar as any of this makes sense). The significance of nature balancing fire and toxic quicksilver. ..? Maybe. The problem is that (assuming that it is a compound and not a process) there's about a dozen things it could be and half of them make sense with the comic. If you open the door for "SM" being an abbreviation for a process phrase that adds another seven or eight possibilities (mercury +/- heat = "SM") in which case maybe it describes mercury refining. Also "M" and "N" can be substituted/confused in some sources which would double the total... [edit] At the moment I'm leaning towards these being processes where we're seeing the changes within the relationships instead of triads of people which is why I said "no Paz" before. Also "I" is not Jack but something to do with how Gamma is mellowing Zeta, possibly... [/edit] |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 1, 2015 23:54:26 GMT
Anthony in the Forest is an interesting idea, but I thought it was relatively well-established that he's in space at least part of the time. No way. Microsat 5, doesn't sound like a manned space-station does it? I guess he is still in Birmingham, or in the vicinity of the court. Counterevidence: when she punches him, Zimmy says he's 'way up in the sky' or somesuch. |
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Post by keef on Jan 2, 2015 0:14:41 GMT
No way. Microsat 5, doesn't sound like a manned space-station does it? I guess he is still in Birmingham, or in the vicinity of the court. Counterevidence: when she punches him, Zimmy says he's 'way up in the sky' or somesuch. She follows the `bones` to find him: They go waaaay off into the sky  after that  |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 2, 2015 1:45:49 GMT
Counterevidence: when she punches him, Zimmy says he's 'way up in the sky' or somesuch. She follows the `bones` to find him: They go waaaay off into the sky after that But when she follows them, she finds Anthony and punches him. Admittedly, that chapter in particular is not very easy to divine reliable information from. But I had always read that scene and interpreted that, when Zimmy followed the bones into the sky, she found Anthony there. |
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Post by calpal on Jan 2, 2015 3:23:43 GMT
Hmm, the Golden Frame on which this picture sits is bothering me... at best, the only comparison I can make out would be the framed picture of Jeanne. The only issue I have with that is the design of both frames don't match up, but if that is potentially what the golden frame is referring to, we may see more of Jeanne in the next Treatise. |
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Post by kukapetal on Jan 2, 2015 3:26:14 GMT
I wonder what's up with one of the markings on the gold frame extending onto the picture itself as a shadow on the trees of the forest.
Also, I just noticed that the two decorative parts of the frame at the top corners aren't identical. I wonder if that symbolizes anything other than just general contrast between the court and forest.
Edit: Actually, I think they are identical and the shading just makes certain parts pop out or fade into the background, making them look different. Whoops.
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Post by warrl on Jan 2, 2015 6:59:54 GMT
The problem is that (assuming that it is a compound and not a process) there's about a dozen things it could be and half of them make sense with the comic. If you open the door for "SM" being an abbreviation for a process phrase that adds another seven or eight possibilities I'm sure that's a huge underestimate... I wonder what's up with one of the markings on the gold frame extending onto the picture itself as a shadow on the trees of the forest. On the Court side, three of the rays emanating from the Seed Bismuth cross onto the frame: two at the level of Kat's neck and shoulder, and one near the bottom of the top-corner molding. On the Forest side, three marks that appear to originate on the frame extend (slightly) into the picture: one just below the top of the trees, one at the height of Annie's elbow, and one forming a shadow upon the lower leg-shadow. The significance of this is questionable. They are not quite identical, but I doubt if the difference is significant. If you first imagine them rotated to point straight up, there is a black horizontal line on the left side of the left-hand one - a bit below half-height, extending from just a bit left of the centerline nearly to the left edge that is significantly more prominent than the three lines that ought to correspond with it; on the right molding, that line practically disappears. |
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Has anyone else noticed the lurking shadow of a tall man on Annie / The Forest's side of the Treatise? His long legs start just below the bush, his body is behind Ysengrin and his head is right next to Y under the moon. Who could that be? Is it the shadow of Anthony Carver? Or could it be Daniel R. Schiff ...
