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Post by todd on Oct 3, 2014 15:39:58 GMT
Well, one thing has occurred to me, what with Kat creating a living body for the ship. It will have to have eyes, right? Makes for a really easy way to deal with it, once Renard shows up. Assuming that Renard's willing to kill again, and Annie to give him permission to do so. (Of course, Renard would see the situation as closer to that of taking over Sivo's body - which he didn't regert because it was a triumph in battle - than that of killing Daniel or trying to kill Annie.) It might be a little too severe on the ship, as well; I get the impression that it was the Seraphs' dupe in this affair, who manipulated its desire for Lindsey into getting it to help them (think, say, Roderigo as Iago's pawn in "Othello" - of course, Roderigo wound up dead, but stabbed by Iago once he'd outlived his usefulness). Of course, if Annie *does* have Renard take over the ship's new body, I wonder what would happen to him after that. Since the ship is presumably Court property, would that mean that the Court would once again own Renard (and be able to lock him up again)? Would he belong to Kat since she made the new body - or would that not be the same as owning it? (If Annie's thereby freed Renard entirely, a lot of people in the Court administration, from the Headmaster on down, are *not* going to be happy with her once they find out about this.) |
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Post by zimmyzims on Oct 3, 2014 16:11:42 GMT
However, that would probably mean she hasn't sent her blinker to Rey Annie sent the blinker stone away before the ship was pulled into Zimmy's world; that's not going to change no matter who here is a Nobody. Right. Didn't think of that. It also seems likely that Jack and not-Zimmy are really with Annie. But the rest of the lot can as well be nobodies. |
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Post by arkadi on Oct 3, 2014 17:19:27 GMT
Oh, dear: Kat's gone into Spark mode. Well, there's no way this could end badly, is there?  I think the whole robot rescue thing will have one function only: so Kat will have a whole legion of robotic witnesses to her act of biomechanical genesis, what will probably catapult her etherical powers into godhood. That'd be... horribly awesome? Awesomely horrible? Half my brain wants to see Kat evolve into a full metal goddess; the other half will be devastated if (when?) that happens. when they die. It didn't matter until they do, at least as far as we know. Ah, but we don't know half the rules of this game; and the ones we do know might not apply in a place like this, removed from 'normal' reality. Tom's holding his cards close to his chest. Well, one thing has occurred to me, what with Kat creating a living body for the ship. It will have to have eyes, right? Makes for a really easy way to deal with it, once Renard shows up. I hope Renard will know better than to try that, because it would be a terrible idea. Let's not forget that this whole... thing... is being made possible by Zimmy screwing reality up; whatever eldritch abomination Kat is building, chances are it'll break down into an awful mess once the regular laws of physics are restored. Kat will likely gain precious insight in her quest for mechanical life, maybe even ascend to godhood, and her robot followers will be all "It was worth it"; but Mr. Ship-made-flesh is gonna end up in the trash bin together with the first experiment. |
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Post by keef on Oct 3, 2014 19:32:41 GMT
See, Kat? Just like playdoh! Theres nothing quite as fun as shaping an eldritch abomination. All I needed to know for Godhood, I learned in kindergarten Have been reading this comic for a long time, but this storyline is what finally made me sign up here. It is really beautifully drawn, and unexpected. Welcome! *How would you feel when you discover you're a god..The fact that everybody who was on the ship is now in Zimcity, does not change the risk of running into nobodies. Except if the large number of "normal" people now in Zimmingham makes Zimmingham more normal, but seeing the state the seraphs are now in makes that unlikely. *I made a little list for another new forumite, copy/paste: |
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Post by aaroncampbell on Oct 3, 2014 20:15:48 GMT
I don't understand why Annie is asking the question, "Can you hear her?". I mean, can Annie? Because if not, there's no reason why she should ask this; from her perspective, all she'd know is that she said, "It's okay. We're looking for Zimmy." to Gamma in polish. Then Gamma looks at Jack and Jack says, "Hi."
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Post by Covalent on Oct 3, 2014 21:38:35 GMT
So, hold, on, blue muscle monster is the ship, right?
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 3, 2014 21:50:38 GMT
So, hold, on, blue muscle monster is the ship, right? Yep. I don't understand why Annie is asking the question, "Can you hear her?". I mean, can Annie? Because if not, there's no reason why she should ask this; from her perspective, all she'd know is that she said, "It's okay. We're looking for Zimmy." to Gamma in polish. Then Gamma looks at Jack and Jack says, "Hi." I think the idea is that Annie heard the 'oh, it\'s you' thing, then was surprised that Jack responded, presumably because she'd never seen this telepathy work to more than one person (and neither have the readers). Oh, dear: Kat's gone into Spark mode. Well, there's no way this could end badly, is there? Bring out the calming pie! I was hoping that Kat would not be as amazed as it now seems... Are you sure it's Kat? Not saying it wasn't, but it can also be the ship, or Paz. We can confirm it is Kat: the ship's speech bubbles have color code (235,251,238) while Paz has (255,255,255) and Kat has (221,228,247). The color of the text box today is (222,228,249) - very, very close to Kat. (Also, the ship's bubbles are a different shape.) I think the whole robot rescue thing will have one function only: so Kat will have a whole legion of robotic witnesses to her act of biomechanical genesis, what will probably catapult her etherical powers into godhood. I like this speculation so much that I'm stealing it... Well, one thing has occurred to me, what with Kat creating a living body for the ship. It will have to have eyes, right? Makes for a really easy way to deal with it, once Renard shows up. I hope Renard will know better than to try that, because it would be a terrible idea. Let's not forget that this whole... thing... is being made possible by Zimmy screwing reality up; whatever eldritch abomination Kat is building, chances are it'll break down into an awful mess once the regular laws of physics are restored. Rey is so much defined by personal loyalty that he might well be willing to sacrifice himself to save the girls if something goes even more wrong and they're in imminent danger. But I very, very much doubt Tom would kill off Rey. Far, far too dark n' edgy. The very best thing, right here. That is amazing. |
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Post by todd on Oct 3, 2014 22:07:58 GMT
It also seems likely that Jack and not-Zimmy are really with Annie. Jenny has a name. |
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Post by thedoctor on Oct 3, 2014 22:18:29 GMT
Welcome to the forums, alexsl! Now, being fascinated with eldritch playdoh is one thing. Actually helping the ship would be another. I hope Kat won't give in to his demands simply because she's curious about what she could or couldn't do with the playdoh. That might (maybe) happen if she were by herself, but with Paz standing there to act as her conscience, it's even more unlikely. So, hold, on, blue muscle monster is the ship, right? Yep. Most likely, but it may be Kat flexing her meat-puppet muscles as well. Though I doubt this; it actually looks very like the robot "muscle" she created in the lab, then accidentally burned. Re the discussion about GOPs, a major point that seems to be neglected here is that the seraphs must have set it up specifically to make sure that the ship and Kat would be carried over into Zimmingham, otherwise their plan wouldn't work. That might mean that they had to set it up so that everybody who was on the ship was carried over; and that might mean that everybody is real. Although it is a fairly well backed up assumption that every real body on the ship would have been brought to the Zimmingham, possibly for the reason you say, it does not follow that everybody in Zimmingham is real. It may be true, but it does not logically follow. You see, whether or not everybody was brought to Zimmingham, does not affect what else is there, for example, the nobodies. Everybody can be there, and Annie can still be seeing nobodies, while the others really are in other parts of the Z-ville. Fallacy of the undistributed middle, I believe? It also seems likely that Jack and not-Zimmy are really with Annie. Jenny has a name. She does, and most of us think she's a great character, but when you have an old character and a new character that was initially introduced as a replacement for said old character, the old character's name is always going to come to mind first. This makes it difficult to remember the new character's name, and she's not yet on the "cast" page, so in the interest of time, people go with the easier option. Here is a link to Jenny's introduction, if it will help anyone! (heh, even Kat had this problem!) Also, that third panel has ended my dislike of Jack. He's clearly tired and kind of out of it, but still trying to make sure Zimmy is all right. He's a good egg! (Tom, don't pull a betrayal, please!) |
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Post by thedoctor on Oct 3, 2014 22:27:42 GMT
Does anyone know if Tom objects to being messaged directly? I'd like to ask him if he could update the Cast page. It's missing some of the newer characters.
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 3, 2014 23:43:40 GMT
Does anyone know if Tom objects to being messaged directly? I'd like to ask him if he could update the Cast page. It's missing some of the newer characters. He rarely responds, though...I have an extremely important question to ask about the spanish translation, but he has not answered me. |
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Post by Ophel on Oct 4, 2014 1:05:04 GMT
But I'm betting the Robot King will save the day. I have no idea how, though... Maybe something like this.Or perhaps the big damn heroes goes to the Court officials? Once again, we have to remember what Lindsey had to say about all of this nonsense. |
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Post by csj on Oct 4, 2014 3:16:58 GMT
Kat's seeming decision to disregard alternative means of settlement of the matter other than pretty much caving in to the robocult, is interesting. The assumption appears to be that reasoning with the seraphs and ship is pointless, or perhaps they're discounting it due to robot prejudice.
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Post by SilverbackRon on Oct 4, 2014 4:08:21 GMT
I am worried about how Zimmy is doing right now. Zimmy has never liked Kat, we found that out the moment they met. And on every occasion since then, Zimmy clearly doesn't care for her. And of course we later found out that at least part of the that is "how you look to me" with the RoboKat. Indeed Tom just mentioned it again in the Chapter 11 retrospective that Zimmy doesn't like Kat. Now Kat is harnessing enormous energies that are being forcefully sucked out of Zimmy. Against her will and with violent protest. And Kat seems to be enjoying it, at least if the "amazing... this is amazing!" is an indication. I wonder how ZimmyZims will feel about Kat after today... |
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Post by alexsl on Oct 4, 2014 4:52:40 GMT
This doesn't look like the ship to me, as it seems to want to turn into a whale. It should be Kat playing around with the large arms.
One would hope that she'd remember, or that Paz points out, that it is not clear what happens to the ship's passengers if it is made flesh, and that the whole amazingness basically depends on Zimmy being tortured.
I am still on the no-GOP side of things, and partly for a meta-reason. This chapter does not appear to be about the weirdness of Zimmingham but instead about other issues; it could be about how Kat reacts to the lure of power, and how Paz reacts to her reaction, or about how the students feel about Zimmy and Gamma after getting out of this, about how the Court reacts to robots endangering students, or about the beginning of the great robot civil war, or all of those. It seems unlikely that the great emotional twist would be a simple repeat of the one in Power Station.
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Post by alexsl on Oct 4, 2014 5:00:13 GMT
Oh, and thanks for the welcoming.
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Post by warrl on Oct 4, 2014 7:26:15 GMT
Kat's seeming decision to disregard alternative means of settlement of the matter other than pretty much caving in to the robocult, is interesting. The assumption appears to be that reasoning with the seraphs and ship is pointless, or perhaps they're discounting it due to robot prejudice. I can't say you're wrong, but I think you're premature in this judgment. Kat at the moment isn't thinking about what she *will* do, she's intoxicated on what she *can* do. And what she is doing at the moment, in my opinion based on the couple of brief glances we've gotten, is working out details of an endoskeletal design. Not directly relevant to a crustacean. Also seriously the wrong scale for a potential replacement for Bud. (I have a funny feeling that the ship wouldn't recognize Bud as being of the same species as Lindsey, because of the size difference.) |
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Post by todd on Oct 4, 2014 10:54:42 GMT
This doesn't look like the ship to me, as it seems to want to turn into a whale. It should be Kat playing around with the large arms. One would hope that she'd remember, or that Paz points out, that it is not clear what happens to the ship's passengers if it is made flesh, and that the whole amazingness basically depends on Zimmy being tortured. I am still on the no-GOP side of things, and partly for a meta-reason. This chapter does not appear to be about the weirdness of Zimmingham but instead about other issues; it could be about how Kat reacts to the lure of power, and how Paz reacts to her reaction, or about how the students feel about Zimmy and Gamma after getting out of this, about how the Court reacts to robots endangering students, or about the beginning of the great robot civil war, or all of those. It seems unlikely that the great emotional twist would be a simple repeat of the one in Power Station. I think it seems wisest to wait until Monday's page (when presumably we'll see more of what Kat's doing, and what might be going through her head - at present, we know almost nothing) before commenting much on what Kat's doing now. I do think it's worth pointing out that in the shock and confusion of the moment, she might not be thinking over what this is doing to Zimmy - or to everyone else; those are the kinds of thoughts that come more easily when you're safe at home reading the story (and knowing what's going on with the other characters) than when you're there, still dealing with the fact that you *can* make the ship flesh.. And I agree that Tom's not likely to repeat himself with "Power Station". As I mentioned before, when he introduced that element, it was a genuine shock because we didn't know that Nobodies could assume the forms of other people or that the other kids *hadn't* been transported to Zimmy's world. So seeing the "fake Kat" gopped was a big moment. A second time around - not as big. We're expecting it, so it can't shock us. And Tom might feel done with the Nobodies, just as with the Whitelegs. (And this might be a Nobody-free part of the town, anyway. All the Nobodies except Kat in "Power Station" where straightforward Nobodies, with the gaps in their faces, suggesting that those are the majority of the population, and we haven't seen a single one of those yet. They might only appear where Zimmy is, in fact.) |
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 4, 2014 13:37:08 GMT
I think the whole robot rescue thing will have one function only: so Kat will have a whole legion of robotic witnesses to her act of biomechanical genesis, what will probably catapult her etherical powers into godhood. when they die. It didn't matter until they do, at least as far as we know. They also are about to have their first holy war, so... |
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Post by goldenknots on Oct 4, 2014 13:51:44 GMT
Rey is so much defined by personal loyalty that he might well be willing to sacrifice himself to save the girls if something goes even more wrong and they're in imminent danger. But I very, very much doubt Tom would kill off Rey. Far, far too dark n' edgy. I didn't say anything about Renard being killed. All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 4, 2014 16:04:02 GMT
Oh, and thanks for the welcoming. Glad to have ya. Also, you can edit posts to avoid double-posting (wink) Rey is so much defined by personal loyalty that he might well be willing to sacrifice himself to save the girls if something goes even more wrong and they're in imminent danger. But I very, very much doubt Tom would kill off Rey. Far, far too dark n' edgy. I didn't say anything about Renard being killed. All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. I know; I may have used the wrong quote above, but someone said that the ship's body may disintegrate when it leaves Zimmingham, especially if something goes wrong, and they thought that Rey would then be killed. Edit: looking back, that someone was arkadi, who I did quote. |
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Post by asyetunnamed on Oct 4, 2014 16:15:08 GMT
Rey is so much defined by personal loyalty that he might well be willing to sacrifice himself to save the girls if something goes even more wrong and they're in imminent danger. But I very, very much doubt Tom would kill off Rey. Far, far too dark n' edgy. I didn't say anything about Renard being killed. All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. I don't think that that would work without there being a massive risk. Reynard said that he could not do anything without the permission of his owner, so Annie would have to allow him to take the ship's body. I would argue that the ship is the property of the Court; the Court would immediately become the "owner" of Reynard. Something tells me that the Court would not allow him to return to Annie's toy. |
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Post by davidm on Oct 4, 2014 18:35:54 GMT
Well, one thing has occurred to me, what with Kat creating a living body for the ship. It will have to have eyes, right? Makes for a really easy way to deal with it, once Renard shows up. it was the Seraphs' dupe in this affair imo too many choices for dupe and puppetmaster to pick with such limited clues... eg Gunnerkrigg court might like such as experiment as a way to become "gods" as coyote describes motives... This is nearly same scenario as Renard in love and Coyote duping him to kill for love, so even coyote could be source somehow, this is after all in a ship at sea so perhaps outside gunnerkrigg court technically so coyote can directly interfere with a ship and would probably find it big funny joke... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1214 (Coyotes entire argument works as well for the ship... eg ship is godlike in size, power compared to humans that are only as strong as one of its terminal robots, robots taking flesh would pull them towards forest side) And even small chance Robot as a way to get rid of rivals to advance his robot religion might have set his rivals up with bad idea... he was long ago disabled for a reason, his central chip/brain is somehow very special with extra on it, no idea his history and might one day become big reveal when we do get his full history. Eg imagine the very first robots that shut themselves down to make room for others did so for a good reason, and one of them decided that the good reason wasn't good and snuck his brain into a special "chip" with magic runes hidden inside and put that on top of normal chip and wiped some of his memory for a while but left compulsions as a way to hide into the future. There is lots we don't know such as the mechanical birds and the creator of Jones, possible that other forces/sides are at play here. For all we know the seraphs could be dupes and the ship their puppetmaster... even being in love with Lindsey might be secondary to getting godhood with power over magic as well as mechanical forces. (eg touch of evil overlord in love with the godlike magic powers of lindsey more than than her mind, makes a plan to turn self into even more powerful being using Kat as a tool to follow his blueprint... Kat won't understand full meaning of blueprint till too late) |
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Post by todd on Oct 4, 2014 22:10:25 GMT
I didn't say anything about Renard being killed. All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. I still think that death by possession might be too extreme a fate for the ship at present - though we'd have to see how the interaction between Kat and the ship has gone by the time the rescue party goes there (and we don't even know whether Reynardine would be accompanying the robots). I do think that Annie would only allow it (and she'd have to give her consent for Reynardine to be able to do it) if there was absolutely no other way of rescuing everyone. |
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Post by chrisjenl on Oct 4, 2014 22:22:15 GMT
I didn't say anything about Renard being killed. All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. I don't think that that would work without there being a massive risk. Reynard said that he could not do anything without the permission of his owner, so Annie would have to allow him to take the ship's body. I would argue that the ship is the property of the Court; the Court would immediately become the "owner" of Reynard. Something tells me that the Court would not allow him to return to Annie's toy. Is the body of the robot not Kat's?? But i don't think that Annie ever will tell Renard to get a other body if its not his old wolf body. I don't think she will at the end trusted him not with that power. |
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Post by davidm on Oct 4, 2014 22:55:57 GMT
Renard can possibly get permission from Annie to take ship by eyes... just matter of wording the question vaguely enough in desperate situation (where time is tight).
Renard did not directly ask Annie for permission to murder Hetty.
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 5, 2014 1:16:18 GMT
All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. Not necessarily. But hey, a little experiment may be in order. |
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Post by davidm on Oct 5, 2014 3:11:25 GMT
All he has to do is possess the ship, then go back to the stuffed toy. The toy won't be in any position to die from the transition, since it was never alive, but the ship will, being now a living being, suffer the same fate as Sivo and the others. Not necessarily. But hey, a little experiment may be in order. If Renard goes into ship, he is no longer required to obey Annie and has lots of power, so only diplomatic reasons, and love for Annie and other friends as motivation to go back to toy. (Unless others come up with way to destroy a Renard powered Shipzilla, or otherwise required to stop Zimmagendon) |
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Post by warrl on Oct 5, 2014 4:39:41 GMT
If Renard goes into ship, he is no longer required to obey Annie and has lots of power Currently he is compelled (not just required) to obey Annie and has lots of power. If he goes into the ship, he is compelled to obey the owner of the ship and has lots of power. The catch is, when he is not inhabiting an object owned by someone else he is not compelled to obey anyone. That would include the transition period when he leaves Annie's wolf-doll for the alleged purpose of taking over the ship, but has not yet entered its eyes. |
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Post by feraldog on Oct 5, 2014 6:41:17 GMT
However, that would probably mean she hasn't sent her blinker to Rey Annie sent the blinker stone away before the ship was pulled into Zimmy's world; that's not going to change no matter who here is a Nobody. As I've mentioned in the previous thread, I certainly don't think it'll turn into a case of "They're all Nobodies, including Annie" (what would be the point of that? why would Tom show what the Nobodies pretending to be Annie and the rest were doing, instead of what the real Annie and the rest were doing?), and while this Gamma might turn out to be a Nobody, if she does, Tom will be handling it carefully to avoid turning it into a simple rerun of the "Power Station" twist. (Back in "Power Station", before Gamma dispelled the "Nobody-Kat", we didn't know that Nobodies could impersonate people or that Kat wasn't actually transsported to Zimmy's world, so the shock worked. This time, since we know about the "advanced Nobodies", it wouldn't have the same effect - so if Tom's going to be reusing that idea, he's going to need to add something extra to it to guard against a response of "Seen it before".) Nobodies seem to target the people they're based on, unless the Room of Jacks was all the whitelegs' doing (which makes me wonder how much the different Zimmingham inhabitants cooperate with each other). |
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