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Post by kuruko on Mar 5, 2014 19:12:25 GMT
The one thing many people that are saying its WW2 is missing is that if a poster showing a bombing raid it would have been planes. Zeppelins were outmoded near the end of the 1930's, especially after the Hidenburg. (I dont think I spelled that right.) There were a few posters and it wasn't as widespread as WW2 but it did happen.The clothes, though you really could make an argument that not much changed between wars and I agree with that, do closely resemble closer to the 1920's. The shape of the airships look more like zeps, the more I look at it the more I believe it. I could be wrong and I may be but I'm pretty sure that it's WW1. That was my first thought when I saw the page.
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 5, 2014 19:25:44 GMT
Pshaw, as far as we know, it could be an alternate reality with the war being neither. The connection between the Gunnerverse and ours has never quite been established.
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Post by sleepcircle on Mar 5, 2014 19:32:52 GMT
tom just said it's world war ii
EDIT: I don't know if this is actually relevant but the poster does not seem to be depicting an air raid, it just seems to be depicting the stylized aftermath of one.
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Post by Señor Goose on Mar 5, 2014 19:56:21 GMT
Check out Tom's Twooter.
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 5, 2014 20:02:23 GMT
I think none of the airships zimmyzims posted are of the German WW1 era Zeppelins, though. Their appearance is quite distinct, and as I'm presuming the name of the city we cannot see to be London (the first letter is likely 'L' and final 'n' and the second to last is likely 'o', and the length fits), those would be the ones to feature in British propaganda. All those are from right era, though one is Italian and one English. I linked to WW1 era zeppelin 2 didn't I? I'm so bloody sure that there were non-private evacuations of children from cities to countryside in WW1, but I cannot find a word on it it on internet. Or, yes, a word here and there, but nothing reliable, bar a mention that evacuations did happen (at least in Scotland, but supposedly then in England too), but that they were basic... aaaand this. As a local history association it bears some credibility in my eyes. These organisations tend to do decent work and record history that is forgotten by masses. And then, there another little historian reports similar events elsewhere. So at least it existed: government lead evacuations of kids. But by force of google I'm bound to admit that the evacuations were probably not very significant (because otherwise it would be found by google, duh!), and it certainly seems that the slogan in the picture is from WWII (damn you google, do your work!). The second report was about unofficial evacuations, which doesn't scream public campaign. So it appears to be WWII. Still, the bloody airships there. Could they really be just blurry balloons? And why the poem then? It's not only associated with WWI, but how much was it used around WWII anymore? |
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Post by The Anarch on Mar 5, 2014 20:13:59 GMT
tom just said it's world war ii Well he didn't actually say "World War II", he just said "WW2" which could stand for anything! Let the wild speculation commence!I think it's taking place during Wild West 2, Will Smith's latest blockbuster hit coming this fall. |
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Post by KMar on Mar 5, 2014 20:44:47 GMT
I think it's quite unfortunate author decided to step in and ruin a perfectly good argument that could have dragged on for another 4 pages. I was just about to start analysing the structure of the blocks (?) the pavement the boy is standing on is made of! I think none of the airships zimmyzims posted are of the German WW1 era Zeppelins, though. Their appearance is quite distinct, and as I'm presuming the name of the city we cannot see to be London (the first letter is likely 'L' and final 'n' and the second to last is likely 'o', and the length fits), those would be the ones to feature in British propaganda. All those are from right era, though one is Italian and one English. I linked to WW1 era zeppelin 2 didn't I? My point wasn't especially about the era, more about their significant lack of German tube-ness(?), that was present on LZ 2 (presuming we're talking about the same ship). They wouldn't make posters about Italians bombing London. That history student post about Wiltshire is actually very interesting. Let me quote it. It seems to be than there isn't much study on these evacuations, and they appear to be have been more widespread and possibly organized than their presence in public conciousness might let on. However, they were not 'government organised', and there wasn't apparently (this is utter speculation on my part, though) enough publicity and 'lasting' evidence (for example, in form of widespread poster campaigns, pamphlets, newspaper articles / announcements, and so on) that it wouldn't be overwritten in the perceptions of media, general public and other unspecialised people (who fill all the internets) by the much larger evacuations during WW2 and which *also* would provide abundance of primary sources for historians like in that link. Thus, the references like in this comic are much likely to be about WW2 (mighty statistical evidence, with sample n = 1  ), even if when it comes to actual facts of history, you're correct and these large scale evacuations really did happen. It's quite delightful surprise to learn that there is still research to do on WW1 in UK. Also, always fun to learn something new. |
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Post by Intelligence on Mar 5, 2014 21:26:49 GMT
The poster is clearly reminiscent of WW2.
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Post by sniperserpent on Mar 5, 2014 21:48:57 GMT
Some evidence points to WWI, some to WWII, the only logical explanation is this is a prophetic painting made by a psychic who received blurred visions of each war.
Mort was told these visions as a child, and later died in the wars they predicted. Possibly he only died in one of the wars.
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Post by Eversist on Mar 5, 2014 21:59:22 GMT
Thank you, Tom for clarifying on Twitter.
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 5, 2014 22:47:24 GMT
I think it's quite unfortunate author decided to step in and ruin a perfectly good argument that could have dragged on for another 4 pages. I was just about to start analysing the structure of the blocks (?) the pavement the boy is standing on is made of! He did that? Oh, seems he did. Darned. Obviously they wouldn't, I just gave examples of ships of the era. However, we're not talking of the precise same ship, behind my link it was different. I'm not big connoisseur of airships though. Made a visual judgement on the pictures of balloons and zeppelins. Short: My point exactly, that I this time managed to make more concisely (and less accurately). My bad about government organisation, hastily written and I basically meant to say 'public' without connotation to known or visible to many. Did I not use word non-private somewhere? I think I did but I may have deleted it as a non-word to prefer 'government'. That's what I meant anyway: unofficial, but organised by someone else than the families of the kids (that's the way I got it, but now that I look at it, it does not exclude the possibility that these were organised by families themselves). Anyway, my understanding has been exactly that these have been little spoken of, and therefore little known, despite the phenomenon existing in rather wide scale. But as said, there seems to be no evidence about public campaign, hence it is unlikely that Tom would refer to such a campaign with that poster - even if there would have been a one, which for the reasons you say, is quite unlikely. Thus, the references like in this comic are much likely to be about WW2 (mighty statistical evidence, with sample n = 1 ), even if when it comes to actual facts of history, you're correct and these large scale evacuations really did happen. It's quite delightful surprise to learn that there is still research to do on WW1 in UK. Also, always fun to learn something new. Agreed on this too. Have to say, I had close to 0 knowledge on these posters and related campaigns before this. Based my whole reasoning on what I explained in the beginning: zeppelin bombings + delcum et + evacuation = WWI England. Arguments like this are lovely! And it shows one can argue about facts! ...and obviously be wrong about them.  Edit: In aftermath, I have to give my vote to the Wild West 2 theory, because Will Smith blockbuster. |
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Post by philman on Mar 5, 2014 23:31:24 GMT
4 pages... I swear the forum topics get longer the less information we receive!
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Post by keef on Mar 5, 2014 23:44:18 GMT
I'm so bloody sure that there were non-private evacuations of children from cities to countryside in WW1, but I cannot find a word on it it on internet. Or, yes, a word here and there, but nothing reliable, bar a mention that evacuations did happen (at least in Scotland, but supposedly then in England too), but that they were basic... aaaand this. As a local history association it bears some credibility in my eyes. These organisations tend to do decent work and record history that is forgotten by masses. Great find, and you are right; local amateur historians and journalists often dig up facts you will not find in official history. An example from my own experience, a friend of my father published his diaries, starting in WWII. He described a shooting that took place at the time of the liberation celebrations, where ten people accused of treason were shot by their guards without any provocation. When I tried to find information on the story I only found a strange remark from a historian who suggested that people who were interested in such a story probably were traitors themselves.. Years later a local newspaper found the man that fired the shots, and shortly before his death he admitted his involvement. Google, Wikipedia, Wiktionary, and the rest get better all the time, the danger is, we tend to rely on them and think something does not exist, or did not happen when we can't find it on Google. Some people would even go so far as suggesting Lord Coyote does not exist. Patience..  I think it's quite unfortunate author decided to step in and ruin a perfectly good argument that could have dragged on for another 4 pages. I was just about to start analysing the structure of the blocks (?) the pavement the boy is standing on is made of! He did that? Oh, seems he did. Darned. Couldn't agree with you more  4 pages... I swear the forum topics get longer the less information we receive! And so it should be. Next page: a wall without a poster. |
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Post by wombat on Mar 6, 2014 1:03:34 GMT
There were a lot of evacuations during WWII as well, however. Maybe I'm just remembering The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe too much, but I just feel more reminded of WWII by this page. The aircraft depicted in the poster don't necessarily have to be the same as the ones that would be used in the war, especially since this does seem to me like it's happening before most or all of the bombing occurs. Seriously, come WWII, the time of zeppelins was over. nobody would have been crazy enough to put a flying hydrogen bomb over their own city, and Germans would have never been able to fly those whales over the channel. The thing is, you feel WWII, because you've been reading a book where there are evacuations to the country side. But those happen during wars whenever there is threat to the towns: civil people and particularly kids are largely evacuated, and with bombing that threat is there. So the things that you are familiar with apply to other contexts than the one that you know them from, but there are other elements in this picture that were not there in the context you are thinking. WWII, bombing was done by airplanes, bombers, whereas airships came obsolete before that, between Hindenburg 1937 and precisely WWII, as they were found so inapt to use during war time. But here there are zeppelins, so it is not WWII, it is WWI, even if the general imagery is more familiar to you from WWII context. In addition, we already know to associate Mort's death with the verse "dulcem et decorum est pro patria mori" that has been in many occasions in history spelled in memory of those who have died on fields of war, but it bears strong relation to WWI and to my very limited knowledge has been much less used during wars after WWI, because during that time it was turned into a pacifist poem by Wilfred Owen and it became obvious to many that calling dying for one's country sweet approaches mockery of those who actually suffer horrible deaths (Owen described a death under gas attack which did not appear so sweet). I'm not sure, though, if it was still used in WWII. Maybe it was. But in any event, even before this picture, we had been given a hint that Mort's death might have to do with WWI, as was discussed, and the combination of the poster and the zeppelins all but affirm that this hunch was correct. Dang, I felt like the tone in this was a bit condescending. Maybe I'm being over sensitive, but you don't need to tell me why I was feeling WWII. (And for the record, I haven't "been reading a book," I read it maybe a decade ago; and it's hardly that alone that had me feeling WWII, but many, many pieces of media set in that time that I've been exposed to over the years as well as bits of information that came up in history classes.) And yeah, I'm aware of the connection between the "dulcem et decorum" quote; my 10th grade English made us look at a bunch of images of soldiers dying from mustard gas when we read that, and I will be forever scarred by that. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 6, 2014 8:06:06 GMT
Seriously, come WWII, the time of zeppelins was over. nobody would have been crazy enough to put a flying hydrogen bomb over their own city, and Germans would have never been able to fly those whales over the channel. The thing is, you feel WWII, because you've been reading a book where there are evacuations to the country side. But those happen during wars whenever there is threat to the towns: civil people and particularly kids are largely evacuated, and with bombing that threat is there. So the things that you are familiar with apply to other contexts than the one that you know them from, but there are other elements in this picture that were not there in the context you are thinking. WWII, bombing was done by airplanes, bombers, whereas airships came obsolete before that, between Hindenburg 1937 and precisely WWII, as they were found so inapt to use during war time. But here there are zeppelins, so it is not WWII, it is WWI, even if the general imagery is more familiar to you from WWII context. In addition, we already know to associate Mort's death with the verse "dulcem et decorum est pro patria mori" that has been in many occasions in history spelled in memory of those who have died on fields of war, but it bears strong relation to WWI and to my very limited knowledge has been much less used during wars after WWI, because during that time it was turned into a pacifist poem by Wilfred Owen and it became obvious to many that calling dying for one's country sweet approaches mockery of those who actually suffer horrible deaths (Owen described a death under gas attack which did not appear so sweet). I'm not sure, though, if it was still used in WWII. Maybe it was. But in any event, even before this picture, we had been given a hint that Mort's death might have to do with WWI, as was discussed, and the combination of the poster and the zeppelins all but affirm that this hunch was correct. Dang, I felt like the tone in this was a bit condescending. Maybe I'm being over sensitive, but you don't need to tell me why I was feeling WWII. (And for the record, I haven't "been reading a book," I read it maybe a decade ago; and it's hardly that alone that had me feeling WWII, but many, many pieces of media set in that time that I've been exposed to over the years as well as bits of information that came up in history classes.) And yeah, I'm aware of the connection between the "dulcem et decorum" quote; my 10th grade English made us look at a bunch of images of soldiers dying from mustard gas when we read that, and I will be forever scarred by that. Sorry about that, but to me it appeared you already told me why you feel it's WWII (the book) and you gave no other reason. So all I did was that I pointed out why that event could refer to WWI as well and what other reasons there are to think it was rather WWI. To my mind, I just added information and problematized a reason. But by force of google I'm bound to admit that the evacuations were probably not very significant (because otherwise it would be found by google, duh!), and it certainly seems that the slogan in the picture is from WWII (damn you google, do your work!). The second report was about unofficial evacuations, which doesn't scream public campaign. So it appears to be WWII. Google, Wikipedia, Wiktionary, and the rest get better all the time, the danger is, we tend to rely on them and think something does not exist, or did not happen when we can't find it on Google. Some people would even go so far as suggesting Lord Coyote does not exist. I agree, there is a danger there. I'm not sure if they are getting a whole lot better. Maybe they are. Depends on the way you define "better", I guess. Seriously speaking, the way that wikipedia is conducted, very explicitly as expressing a mainstream version that often is already obsolete, and nothing else, is already making it a dangerous source to rely on. When you know about an issue, and stumble to a wikipedia page on it, you sometimes are horrified by the content put out there as the truth of the matter. Obviously, it is the reliance itself that makes it more dangerous than its real form, but when you look at the old encyclopedias, those were critical, up to date stuff where top experts of their field took a very personal stance on the subject. That has its faults too, but it was, let's say, less imperial. Google, on the other hand, is arranged by parts that are more linked or more hit than others, so that while it has almost infinite number of sites in it, you will never see most of those through google. Nobody will. So, it too privileges some information. But google decides differently, it is a sort of shouting contest. You ask a question and a billion people will shout and although so surprisingly many of them shout the same thing that you will actually hear a single answer, it will not necessarily be the best answer that you will hear. In fact you may end up finding mostly marginal conspiracy theorist stuff and never meet what is more commonly thought of the subject. By the way, about marginal histories, official history tends to be in denial of them especially when it comes to war, and other events where there are huge political stakes and issues may get really nasty. It's particularly in those times that we really have to doubt what we are taught. |
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Post by wombat on Mar 6, 2014 9:10:43 GMT
Sorry about that, but to me it appeared you already told me why you feel it's WWII (the book) and you gave no other reason. So all I did was that I pointed out why that event could refer to WWI as well and what other reasons there are to think it was rather WWI. To my mind, I just added information and problematized a reason. I guess you misunderstood my post then, since I was just offering that as a possible link for some of the WWII impression I got from it... but it was hardly meant in the way of an argument, and not really meant seriously. I had already posted my initial thoughts with a stronger connection on the previous page, though even then I acknowledge that it wasn't very fleshed out. When it's 3am, my creativity tends to be high but other cognitive areas rather low, so I know I wasn't articulating myself that thoroughly. (It's 4am right now because I decided it was very important that I art instead of sleeping, so I'm not sure how much sense this is going to make either.) |
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Post by thedoctor on Mar 6, 2014 9:22:39 GMT
4 pages... I swear the forum topics get longer the less information we receive! Dude! Some up-and-coming sociology grad student should totally write a statistical analysis of this. Or maybe a more general paper; "On the Inverse Variance of Known Fact and Amount of Speculation in Internet Culture." |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 6, 2014 18:17:45 GMT
Sorry about that, but to me it appeared you already told me why you feel it's WWII (the book) and you gave no other reason. So all I did was that I pointed out why that event could refer to WWI as well and what other reasons there are to think it was rather WWI. To my mind, I just added information and problematized a reason. I guess you misunderstood my post then, Most probably. It does, no worries. And sorry for sounding condescending - and for not looking at what you have written before. I can confess, I do not read these thread from beginning to end, I pick the first post I want to respond and answer it, which determines the posts that I see when writing a post or publishing it, and if I see something there I want to answer, I pick it up and answer. Oh, also I sometimes check if I have been quoted, and then might find another post nearby the reply and pick that up. So I don't actually go through these threads systematically at all. Except for the opportunist thread. That I'm reading from beginning to end right now. And the party hat thread. |
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Post by csj on Mar 7, 2014 2:59:17 GMT
It's okay, guys. Some of you weren't force-fed British history for years at school (myself included). We all make mistakes.
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Mar 7, 2014 5:32:36 GMT
Some people would even go so far as suggesting Lord Coyote does not exist. They will pay for their blasphemy! |
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), even if when it comes to actual facts of history, you're correct and these large scale evacuations really did happen. It's quite delightful surprise to learn that there is still research to do on WW1 in UK. Also, always fun to learn something new.
