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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 5, 2014 12:15:57 GMT
Maybe not- they could also be barrage balloons. In fact the shape looks pretty similar, and those WERE used in WW2, and to deny enemy fighter airspace above London in particular. I could very well be wrong.  Gee, man, didn't think of that. Leaves this quite open. I still feel the poem has more connection with WWI, so I would still fall more to the direction of WWI than WWII. But it all really comes down to this: are those barrage balloons or zeppelins there? |
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Post by fatexx544 on Mar 5, 2014 12:39:07 GMT
Here is an image showing the barrage balloons in silohuette:  The tail is a little further back and spikier than it looks like in Tom's drawing. However, the zepplins are in fact much longer in silohuette, as seen here:  I feel like the silhouettes are more reminiscent of barrage balloons, but Tom is not a military expert and weird angles can make weird shapes. The kid's outfit looks more like WW1 to me, but as has already been covered, the fashions did not change much. Right now I'm leaning more WWII simply because there isn't much evidence for a widespread evacuation in WWI. And remember, the evacuations apparently started as early as 1938, so it is possible Mort died before WWII really started in Europe. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 5, 2014 12:44:21 GMT
Seriously, come WWII, the time of zeppelins was over. nobody would have been crazy enough to put a flying hydrogen bomb over their own city, and Germans would have never been able to fly those whales over the channel. The thing is, you feel WWII, because you've been reading a book where there are evacuations to the country side. But those happen during wars whenever there is threat to the towns: civil people and particularly kids are largely evacuated, and with bombing that threat is there. So the things that you are familiar with apply to other contexts than the one that you know them from, but there are other elements in this picture that were not there in the context you are thinking. WWII, bombing was done by airplanes, bombers, whereas airships came obsolete before that, between Hindenburg 1937 and precisely WWII, as they were found so inapt to use during war time. But here there are zeppelins, so it is not WWII, it is WWI, even if the general imagery is more familiar to you from WWII context. Except that those things on the poster are still not cigar-shaped WWI zeppelins, but egg-shaped WWII barrage balloons. The poster itself is WWII-style and the mass evacuations from the Blitz were, at least to my knowledge, the only ones of their kind, not repeated before or since in British war effort. they are barrage balloons. Very hard to tell. Not all Zeppelins were really long "cigar shaped". Take a look at this:  or this:  Okay, that one may have a lot to do with perspective, but who says those in Tom's poster don't. Anyway, check this:  Or visit this page, there Zeppelin II comes pretty close to the shape of the craft in Tom's poster. Longish. Sure. Longer shape than in Tom's picture. Yeah, it is. Further from it than the barrage balloons. Well no, they definitely are not. They seem to have only little wings in the back, like zeppelins, not those big bumpers that make the barrage balloons look like bombs.  Where are those in the pics?  If they were barrage balloons, the rear end should look larger than the body:  But instead the rear end seems smaller, like in a zeppelin:  In fact, after this collage, I'd say they damn well are zeppelins and not barrage balloons. About the other points: - The poster is just as much WWI style, so that is open too. - WWI had its evacuations, less talked off, precisely kids were evacuated to the country side. I'm sure of this, but can't find you an internet source. That one is therefore open too. - Only thing are the balloons/ships, and they really appear to be ships. In any event, they are no planes, which you would expect to be depicted in the middle of the lights in that poster if it was WWII. Therefore and with reference to poem, WWI. Edit: okay, in fatexx544's picture, the rear-ends of balloons shine less big. I still think two or three of my zeppelins are more like Tom's picture. Edit2: just noticed that kuruko already had made quite a few of the points I made, if not all of them, in more concise manner. 'zims out. |
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Post by Per on Mar 5, 2014 12:55:39 GMT
Unless Mort was run down by one of Rundstedt's King Tigers I don't think he was killed by the Blitzkrieg.  King Tigers weren't used before D-Day so does that even count as blitzkrieg. DO YOU EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE HISTORY For like a half a second I was totally stoked that GKC took place in an alternate universe where London was attacked by UFOs frequently. Did anybody else feel the same way? Not sure about stokage but I did see UFOs. Theory: Mort is bitter because he didn't live to see the pasqueflowers. |
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krael
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Post by krael on Mar 5, 2014 12:58:33 GMT
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Post by KMar on Mar 5, 2014 13:21:00 GMT
I think none of the airships zimmyzims posted are of the German WW1 era Zeppelins, though. Their appearance is quite distinct, and as I'm presuming the name of the city we cannot see to be London (the first letter is likely 'L' and final 'n' and the second to last is likely 'o', and the length fits), those would be the ones to feature in British propaganda.
Also, as many others have already said, the evacuation of children out of London in WW2 and the related propaganda campaign is famous for its large scale; I've never heard (and after of some googling have yet to come any reputable source mentioning) of similar operation that would included these kind of public posters during WW1. Apparently some people did send their children to relatives, and similar.
As I said, the scare of the bombings targeted at civilian population was born during WW1 (because before then, similar methods haven't been used much in Europe against European civilians), which resulted in these kind of evacuation campaigns of children with posters, government procedures etc all over the Europe in WW2.
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Post by zimmyhoo on Mar 5, 2014 13:41:28 GMT
Zeppelins, floodlights.
Indisputably WWI.
Except there was little publicity of send your kids out to the city - that was more WWII.
E: forgot about barrage balloons. I still tend towards WWI, though, for whatever reason.
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Post by King Mir on Mar 5, 2014 14:02:51 GMT
I tend toward WWI, because a poster of evacuation would show the threat evacuated from. That means either bomber planes or Zeppelins. And since there are no bomber planes, those must be zeppelins.
The "Dulce et decorum est" is supporting evidence too.
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Post by legion on Mar 5, 2014 14:13:27 GMT
Maybe this is WWI.V (or WWIS if you really want to be pedantic) which only happened in the Gunnerkrigg universe.
Also, I am getting back flushing memories from "Bedknobs and Broomsticks".
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jmt
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Post by jmt on Mar 5, 2014 14:29:18 GMT
Hi all - I was interested in the discussion, and I wanted to share this little nugget of treasure about barage balloons: The things one can find! |
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Post by warrl on Mar 5, 2014 14:38:26 GMT
So Tom has all but confirmed that Mort died in WWII, then. Unless we see him as a ghost watching the city or something. Unless, wait, Germany bombed England during the first World War? They bombed Scotland? Holy shit, I didn't know they could cross the channel, let a lone Britain. Well, silly me! Airships did scheduled transatlantic service. The Channel would be easy. The Treaty of Versailles forbade the German military from maintaining any airships. This particular restriction did not bother the Nazis when they came to power, because they recognized that airships would be extremely vulnerable to airplanes. Planes even managed to take down airships during WWI, to the point that by the end of the war airships were pretty much relegated to transport and patrols in presumed-safe areas; and airplanes were *vastly* more capable by the time the Nazis were ready to start military offenses. In WWII, about the only common use of anything resembling airships was as a way to hang cables in the air so low-flying aircraft would snag their wings on the cables. These "barrage balloons" were quite small compared to actual airships, unmanned, and essentially regarded as disposable. They were useless against high-level bombers, but an effective component of the defense against dive-bombers, forcing them to a higher altitude which gave the anti-aircraft guns more time to shoot at them. They were also useful against the low-flying V1 missiles. If those two balloons in the picture are barrage balloons, then this is WWII. If they are anything else, it's WWI. Their size at the apparent distance, their shape, and the fact that only two are visible, makes me doubt that they are WWII barrage balloons. And in fact German airships bombed London several times during WWI. |
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Post by keef on Mar 5, 2014 15:00:31 GMT
If those two balloons in the picture are barrage balloons, then this is WWII. If they are anything else, it's WWI. Their size at the apparent distance, their shape, and the fact that only two are visible, makes me doubt that they are WWII barrage balloons. And in fact German airships bombed London several times during WWI. Almost the exact text can be found on WWII posters. I can't find anything on mass-evacuation of children in WWI. |
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Post by exdevlin on Mar 5, 2014 15:07:14 GMT
Egads, nice work on that brick Tom! I'd've gone mad after the 20th brick I had to draw.
I'm still uncertain whether this is WWI or WWII, but a German coworker has assured me they were WWI. I guess we'll see as the chapter progresses.
*quietly moves to edge of seat for Friday's strip*
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Post by ctso74 on Mar 5, 2014 15:19:52 GMT
From the Archives thumbnail, I'm hoping we see the past, as Mort and Annie talk. That could be very interesting.
His dress could be emulating a fallen WWI hero(grandfather?), while Mort is in WWII. Perhaps, the tomb that he haunts isn't his, but someone he tried to emulate in life and eventual death(or bitterly failed to emulate). Both his outfit and the tomb could be red herrings.
I suppose it's possible, that we could run into Annie's grandmother. Though, what are the odds?
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 5, 2014 15:25:19 GMT
The thing that I'm most curious about in this chapter is how exactly Mort ended up as a ghost and not moving on in the first place.
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Post by keef on Mar 5, 2014 15:25:25 GMT
Maybe this is WWI.V (or WWIS if you really want to be pedantic) which only happened in the Gunnerkrigg universe. Doesn't really fit with Tom's words: "There is a clue to the time period on this page." We should be able to guess, so it's either 1 or 2. |
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Shire
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Post by Shire on Mar 5, 2014 15:27:42 GMT
As has been said, the Zeppelins are a definite pointer to World War 1. By WW2 Zeppelins were obsolete as bombers, and as I recall the Nazis tore all their military Zeppelins apart for materials.
And if you think those are barrage balloons in the poster, ask yourself this: why would a propaganda poster encouraging people to evacuate their children from the city show the city defences and no enemies?
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Post by fwip on Mar 5, 2014 15:28:53 GMT
Here is an image showing the barrage balloons in silohuette: ... The tail is a little further back and spikier than it looks like in Tom's drawing. However, the zepplins are in fact much longer in silohuette, as seen here: ... I feel like the silhouettes are more reminiscent of barrage balloons, but Tom is not a military expert and weird angles can make weird shapes. The kid's outfit looks more like WW1 to me, but as has already been covered, the fashions did not change much. Right now I'm leaning more WWII simply because there isn't much evidence for a widespread evacuation in WWI. And remember, the evacuations apparently started as early as 1938, so it is possible Mort died before WWII really started in Europe. Tom tends to be pretty good about doing research. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Mar 5, 2014 15:34:59 GMT
It's funny how we're trying to decide this now, and in a few hundred years people will probably refer to these two wars as one entity, because in essence they are. Just a story that never got resolved. Unless Mort was run down by one of Rundstedt's King Tigers I don't think he was killed by the Blitzkrieg. King Tigers weren't used before D-Day so does that even count as blitzkrieg. I'd say so. They still used the principle of blitzkrieg (fast moving armored spearheads formed into pincers to cut into the enemy rear areas and meet to form an encircled pocket) even during desperate last-ditch offensives in '45 that had no chance of success such as Operation Wacht am Rhine (AKA The Battle of the Bulge). They stuck to the lightning war doctrine until the moment they ran out of fuel and had to abandon most of their armor on the retreat to Berlin.  |
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Post by Covalent on Mar 5, 2014 16:13:52 GMT
TOLD you guys GKC took place in the 1940s.  |
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Post by KMar on Mar 5, 2014 17:16:48 GMT
Maybe this is WWI.V (or WWIS if you really want to be pedantic) which only happened in the Gunnerkrigg universe. Doesn't really fit with Tom's words: "There is a clue to the time period on this page." We should be able to guess, so it's either 1 or 2. I'm beginning to suspect that's the joke: we are able to pinpoint the time period to be 1914-194x with *amazing* accuracy. Some historians even argue something along the lines that on a large scale of things, both world wars were just one war with a little longer than usual interim peace... And if you think those are barrage balloons in the poster, ask yourself this: why would a propaganda poster encouraging people to evacuate their children from the city show the city defences and no enemies? This is a good point. The balloons are strongly associated with the Blitz (people of London see them hovering above their heads) and thus make an easily identifiable visual cue? After some googling, apparently some of them were raised up specifically in the time of attack, but others stayed in air constantly. And somebody pointed out that it could somewhat plausibly be WW2 evacuation poster and feature zeppelins: it was made prior the actual war time (and before people would have first hand experience that zeppelins had become military technology-wise passé) by an artist who wanted to evoke memories of WW1 air raids. |
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Post by philman on Mar 5, 2014 17:25:54 GMT
Wow this turned into some argument about the date... To me, a brit, and well used to seeing stories and photos of the Blitz and everything, it is seems to point pretty much to WW2, just due to the lack of proper evacuation programs in WW1.
Actually I'm changing my bet to it's modern day, and the boy is just on a school trip to a War Museum or something.
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Post by csj on Mar 5, 2014 17:54:59 GMT
The Helmet in the boy's possession (either a Mk 1 or Mk 2) is one of the more definitive indicators of the period. The UK only manufactured such helmets from 1916 onwards. A delay between helmet production and its appearance as a children's toy means that this scene is no earlier than mid 1916. Unfortunately, these helmets are almost indistinguishable at a distance from those used in the early stages if WW2. It is however, easily told apart form the Mk 3 which was used from 1944 onwards. This limits it to either 1916-1918 or 1939-1943, depending on the differences between barrage balloons and Zeppelins, which due to the level of detail, aren't enough to go by.
Moving on, philman and a few others are right in that there was no formal evacuation program undertaken by the government in WW1; I personally find that more convincing. Unless Tom made a minor cock-up, this is WW2.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 5, 2014 17:56:31 GMT
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 5, 2014 18:19:03 GMT
There is also this:  If this was any more WWII, Connie Willis would be here writing crappy time travel novels. |
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Post by The Anarch on Mar 5, 2014 18:22:33 GMT
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Post by exuberancium on Mar 5, 2014 18:37:53 GMT
Reading this thread:
"Yep, it's world war 2. That's what I figured.
Oh, I guess it's actually WW1.
I guess there's arguments for both.
Nope, there's some good points for WW2. I'm 90% sure its world war 2.
Lets make that 60% sure.
Actually, it could be WW1.
Yeah, I have no idea which one it is."
Right now, I'm leaning towards WW2, but I don't have much confidence in this stance.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 5, 2014 18:50:56 GMT
Reading this thread: ... "Yeah, I have no idea which one it is." Right now, I'm leaning towards WW2, but I don't have much confidence in this stance. That's because people are arguing obscure details within the image instead of looking at the largest, most obvious clue that is staring them in the face: the wording on the poster. This is a composite of two separate posters that were printed in Britain during WWII. |
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Post by legion on Mar 5, 2014 18:58:51 GMT
Re: WWI and WWII treated as one war, it should be noted that the "peace" of the interim period was quite relative anyway. Just during the Year Of Peace 1919 there was: ongoing civil war/revolution in Mexico and Russia, the onset of the Irish and Turkish Wars of Independence, a civil war in Portugal, wars between Poland and Czechoslovakia, Italy and Yugoslavia, the UK and Afghanistan, Hungary and Romania, the Emirate of Riyadh (future Saudi Arabia) and the Kingdom of Hejaz, various local conflicts in Poland and Georgia, and I'm probably missing a bunch of other things (notably uprisings and revolt in colonial territories).
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Post by The Anarch on Mar 5, 2014 19:09:12 GMT
I think the most likely thing is that the entire thing is a mashup of stuff from both wars, just to keep us guessing as to which war it's supposed to actually be representing.
Which, given the conversation up to this point, I have to say MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
Except that it's totally the Hundred Years War. So obvious.
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