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Post by Stately Buff Cookie on Feb 28, 2014 22:24:55 GMT
Potentially, no way of viewing the RoTD is wrong. The essential elements of what a thing is get preserved, but how one sees this truth varies person to person.
Let me back away from the end result and cover the logic that lead to that, though. If Coyote is to be believed, reality is entirely subjective. Really, even without the ether, isn't this true anyway? Red is just red, but the way people feel about read, what they think of when they see it, varies person to person. Even the most famous of paintings or poems will illicit different things from different people. Even someone who only sees a string of words or strokes of pigment is only seeing their personal interpretation. The world with ether can be interpreted to work the same way on a more complex level. Though maybe complex isn't the term I want. Grand? The same could be said for people. A child sees 'mom' and 'dad'. The neighbors see Jim and Jill. A mass murderer may be seen as a monster, but nothing can change the fact they're just a person like any other. That murderer is also someone's child, and they were probably someone's friend too. They also were just 'that pizza delivery guy' or "the handyman" or whatever occupation they held to many other people.
SO lets take this mental process and make it literal. Suddenly, you can see many things from one, and none of them are incorrect. They are all interpretations or parts of a truth, and you cannot make something look like something else without a blatant falsehood being involved on some level. Which breaks down the moment the truth is found out(remember the 'seed bismuth' Annie found in the forest?).
What does this mean for the ROTD? Well, if we take the cardboardy imitation honestly, it seems most of it is just a construct to guide one to what the RotD contains or what one seeks from it. It's likely we only saw what the girls came seeking(who is to say there aren't more workers or archives that really exist), but the rest was there to contain the important stuff and little else. Even the skeleton guide, being naught but a puppet, might be a construct there to point people around. Meet and greet. Serves his purpose. His essential elements are preserved. The librarian might not strictly be human, but he's still a guy just doing his job. Neither of the girls is wrong, and neither is better. They're seeing different spectrums of the same being. You can't see what is not even if the truth can sometimes lie.
Granted, how is the working of the RotD any different from anything people make? The Library of Congress isn't important in itself. What it contains is the important part. The walls containing it, and the shelves and computers things are on, are only there to make the REAL STUFF easier to find. Also to protect it from the elements or getting plain lost from being left laying around. That being said, though the building is just a construction of convenience, it's very real and necessary in it's purpose.
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Post by zimmyhoo on Mar 1, 2014 1:07:24 GMT
If Kat saw that appearance, I wonder if she would be brave enough to order him around? though obviously he isn't even trying to challenge her despite his fearsome form there. IMO, that reasoning is kinda backwards. He looks the way(s) he does because of each person's 'view' of him - it's not necessarily that Kat's brave, it's just that to her, he poses no threat, and, as something etherically affiliated, has no credibility. Okay, going to say it formally. The reason that they all looked to Kat like tacky guys in tacky costumes is because she views them, as etheric/supernatural/extrascientific beings, like shams deserving only the most begrudging of respect and belief. Annie and Mort take them seriously and see them as such. It's not there there's a true form, or even that they show themselves differently to different people - we know there's a strong link between the mind and the ether - it could be more that each person sees what they want, either by adding detail or subconsciously blocking stuff the don't like. For example, it could be Annie didn't pick up on any of the overtones of being poorly-run that the ROTD had, even if it's there. Similarly, it could be that Kat isn't picking up on the power these being have and the importance and significance of the records, 'cause she doesn't hold any merit in that being possible. In other notes, Tom is a wicked awesome artist. Interesting to note that creature still looked patchwork. Wonder if he's made of different people/spirits/whatever cobbled together, perhaps each one taking a dominate role for each service her provides. E: capitalization EE: looks what I just wrote was exactly what Stately Buff Cookie said. I started writing before I got to the third page. ._. Way to be redundant! |
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Post by descoladavirus on Mar 1, 2014 1:20:35 GMT
I do believe Stately Buff Cookie and zimmyhoo have it right.
There is no set in stone "wrong" or "right" way to see things in the ROTD. What Kat sees and what Annie and Mort see are both real and unreal.
That is to say, you see what you want to see there, and it arranges things to suit that.
As for why the guides don't see any love...I'm going to speculate that the ROTD formed from beings that the guides failed to guide. Or things that weren't helped by a medium and eventually abandoned the idea of passing on. Rather than sit around moping or being trapped though they chose to form their own little bureaucracy to help others who the guides don't/won't reach.
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Post by thedoomblahsong on Mar 1, 2014 2:03:06 GMT
I really hope Tom publishes a version of this chapter drawn from Annie/Mort's POV as bonus material. :o :0 :O :(_______)
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 1, 2014 3:24:56 GMT
Though I like the 'reality is mutable depending on perspective', it leaves open the question of whether FormerRobesGuy could eviscerate Kat if he felt like it (as Annie would think) or not (as Kat thought). According to the multi-perspective idea, both should be true but they seem pretty mutually exclusive.
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melkior
Junior Member
Nice Hat!
Posts: 84
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Post by melkior on Mar 1, 2014 4:48:08 GMT
Definitely an awesome page, nearly on the same level as the MechAngelKat page.
I'm going to say that, whatever RobeGuy's "real" form may be, this page shows us what Annie & Mort see when Kat orders RobeGuy out of the room.
If Tom did a second bonus page for this chapter, I'm guessing it would be a view of MechAngelKat ordering RobeGuy out, with her angel form towering at least a head taller over him regardless of his depicted form.
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Post by Stately Buff Cookie on Mar 1, 2014 4:59:45 GMT
Though I like the 'reality is mutable depending on perspective', it leaves open the question of whether FormerRobesGuy could eviscerate Kat if he felt like it (as Annie would think) or not (as Kat thought). According to the multi-perspective idea, both should be true but they seem pretty mutually exclusive. Of course he couldn't. He's just the librarian. He'd get in trouble if he went around eviscerating people that were authorized to be there. |
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Post by thedoctor on Mar 1, 2014 6:17:23 GMT
I'm in favor of #1, because as cool as #3 is, #1 is definitely the funniest, and that's always the best option. Right? RIGHT? Wouldn't it be more funny if the Giant Eldritch Monster was made to leave his room by a fourteen (I think?) year old girl? Dangit! That was what I was trying to say... |
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Post by thedoctor on Mar 1, 2014 6:21:13 GMT
Though I like the 'reality is mutable depending on perspective', it leaves open the question of whether FormerRobesGuy could eviscerate Kat if he felt like it (as Annie would think) or not (as Kat thought). According to the multi-perspective idea, both should be true but they seem pretty mutually exclusive. Seriously though, this is accurate; visual perception can be subjective, but for the comic (and the world) to have coherence, this mutual exclusivity has to hold; he has to have some sort of objective existence. |
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Post by sidhekin on Mar 1, 2014 7:03:55 GMT
Appearances can be deceiving; eviscerations less so.
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Post by biggerj on Mar 1, 2014 7:41:40 GMT
Wait... if the appearance of the ROTD matches beliefs, attitudes and expectations, then maybe the bonus page wasn't what Annie sees... but what WE see.
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Post by thedoctor on Mar 1, 2014 9:33:21 GMT
Wait... if the appearance of the ROTD matches beliefs, attitudes and expectations, then maybe the bonus page wasn't what Annie sees... but what WE see. Or, perhaps more accurately, what Tom sees and has drawn for us. Getting dangerously meta, though. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 1, 2014 12:04:29 GMT
I guess the bonus page was from Antimony's perspective. So, from the turns and twists close together from Kat's perspective in the "haunted house" I'll furthermore wildly speculate that Antimony saw them entering/reentering this same large room and/or navigating the edge of the library along a twisty broken path. As to which perspective is more real, I expect if asked Mr. Siddell would just say something like this again. My current position on all of this is that reality in the Gunnerverse is on the sliding scale. This RotD is very close to the ether. And as to if Robe Boy could "eviscerate Kat if he felt like it" a feeble old human librarian could do that with some minimal preparation, so I don't see why he couldn't in any case. |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 1, 2014 14:25:13 GMT
Personally, I think he is actually a giant monster or a mopey worker, but not both. We've never seen something that changes depending on an individual's perception before (Coyote's secret doesn't count - that requires a long time and a large number of people to work, not differences in a single person's perspective). Without more evidence for something that violates the coherence of the world (even in a fantasy comic) I'm assuming that one of the two observers in incorrect. I reserve the right to change my opinion given later information, though.
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Post by philman on Mar 1, 2014 17:08:54 GMT
Personally, I think he is actually a giant monster or a mopey worker, but not both. We've never seen something that changes depending on an individual's perception before (Coyote's secret doesn't count - that requires a long time and a large number of people to work, not differences in a single person's perspective). Without more evidence for something that violates the coherence of the world (even in a fantasy comic) I'm assuming that one of the two observers in incorrect. I reserve the right to change my opinion given later information, though. You can be a giant monster AND a mopey worker. Your appearance as a terrifying monstrosity doesn't preclude the fact you can still behave like a mopey git as well! |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 1, 2014 21:06:50 GMT
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melkior
Junior Member
Nice Hat!
Posts: 84
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Post by melkior on Mar 2, 2014 7:21:23 GMT
Personally, I think he is actually a giant monster or a mopey worker, but not both. We've never seen something that changes depending on an individual's perception before (Coyote's secret doesn't count - that requires a long time and a large number of people to work, not differences in a single person's perspective). Without more evidence for something that violates the coherence of the world (even in a fantasy comic) I'm assuming that one of the two observers in incorrect. I reserve the right to change my opinion given later information, though. You can be a giant monster AND a mopey worker. Your appearance as a terrifying monstrosity doesn't preclude the fact you can still behave like a mopey git as well! Also, as MechAngelKat shows, you can be a giant, nightmareish mechmonster and a harmless little schoolgirl at the same time. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 2, 2014 8:48:16 GMT
Personally, I think he is actually a giant monster or a mopey worker, but not both. We've never seen something that changes depending on an individual's perception before (Coyote's secret doesn't count - that requires a long time and a large number of people to work, not differences in a single person's perspective). Without more evidence for something that violates the coherence of the world (even in a fantasy comic) I'm assuming that one of the two observers in incorrect. I reserve the right to change my opinion given later information, though. The RotD is by necessity very close to the ether... We already know that the dead can have perception-warping experiences in their afterlives where they are stuck, and that the dead who return to the ether have different experiences on the way. We know Jeanne can kill people. We also know that Gunnerkrigg Court is a place where avenues of study are available that are not available anywhere else, presumably because its position somewhat-away from the mundane muggledom makes such things a little bit easier. We also know a bit about why the 'pomps do what they do. Such things got me questioning the existence of the immortal soul in the Gunnerverse a few years back. Well, that and the fact that it was Formsprung that Antimony would never be able to communicate with Surma in the afterlife. Maybe all the versions of events are equally correct stories and you should be doubting there is a Kat, an Antimony and a Mort...  |
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Post by thedoctor on Mar 2, 2014 8:49:36 GMT
You can be a giant monster AND a mopey worker. Your appearance as a terrifying monstrosity doesn't preclude the fact you can still behave like a mopey git as well! Also, as MechAngelKat shows, you can be a giant, nightmareish mechmonster and a harmless little schoolgirl at the same time. You know, that sounds like it would make a perfectly good anime! |
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Post by thedoctor on Mar 2, 2014 8:51:36 GMT
I keep on forgetting that there is crossover between these two comics, and it makes me so happy when anyone references that comic here! |
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Post by arf on Mar 2, 2014 10:40:08 GMT
Though I like the 'reality is mutable depending on perspective', it leaves open the question of whether FormerRobesGuy could eviscerate Kat if he felt like it (as Annie would think) or not (as Kat thought). According to the multi-perspective idea, both should be true but they seem pretty mutually exclusive. Of course he couldn't. He's just the librarian. He'd get in trouble if he went around eviscerating people that were authorized to be there. But I sink guy like dot say 'Shhh!' reely persuasif. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Mar 2, 2014 14:32:13 GMT
Wait... if the appearance of the ROTD matches beliefs, attitudes and expectations, then maybe the bonus page wasn't what Annie sees... but what WE see. Getting dangerously meta, though. The only thing more dangerous than dangerously cheesy...
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Post by zimmyhoo on Mar 2, 2014 15:06:29 GMT
Personally, I think he is actually a giant monster or a mopey worker, but not both. We've never seen something that changes depending on an individual's perception before (Coyote's secret doesn't count - that requires a long time and a large number of people to work, not differences in a single person's perspective). Without more evidence for something that violates the coherence of the world (even in a fantasy comic) I'm assuming that one of the two observers in incorrect. I reserve the right to change my opinion given later information, though. He's a giant mopey working monster. He has the ability to eviscerate Kat, but not the authorization. Kat doesn't buy into giant beetle monsters able to eviscerate her, so she sees a mopey librarian who won't lift a finger to her. Annie sees his raw etheric power and importance, and doesn't want to think of this place as poorly run and staffed. Notice that they both get confused when confronted with the side of the ROTD they are suppressing - Kat doesn't understand why Annie and Mort are impressed by the tackily decorated place, and Annie is befuddled when Kat tell the guy off. See? |
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Post by kalechibki on Mar 2, 2014 20:01:21 GMT
I keep on forgetting that there is crossover between these two comics, and it makes me so happy when anyone references that comic here! I haven't been back to read it since they did the lame "Crap. I don't know where else to take the castle plot at the moment...let's just have girl of awesomeness fall asleep for two plus years..." I used to have faith in Phil and Kaja could write themselves out of that corner, even when that plot extended beyond the length of the rest of the comic, but that moment destroyed it for me. I don't have problems when people skip ahead, but when characters just get rebooted like that, it really bothers me. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 2, 2014 20:15:03 GMT
Getting dangerously meta, though. The only thing more dangerous than dangerously cheesy...
Oh. My. Jesus. By the way, it is quite impossible not to read "cheetos darts" first as "cheesy farts". And that, that is even more dangerous than dangerously meta. |
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Post by goldenknots on Mar 2, 2014 20:46:59 GMT
I haven't been back to read it since they did the lame "Crap. I don't know where else to take the castle plot at the moment...let's just have girl of awesomeness fall asleep for two plus years..." I used to have faith in Phil and Kaja could write themselves out of that corner, even when that plot extended beyond the length of the rest of the comic, but that moment destroyed it for me. I don't have problems when people skip ahead, but when characters just get rebooted like that, it really bothers me. While I don't wish to derail the thread, I just wanted to mention that they handed it over to someone else for a while and it is quite zany. You might possibly enjoy it -- I gave up for a while, too, but have gone back to reading it since the change. Although I enjoy following a number of webcomics, GKC has them all beat when it comes to art and story and consistent vision. (And regular updates, too.) |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 2, 2014 21:20:19 GMT
I haven't been back to read it since they did the lame "Crap. I don't know where else to take the castle plot at the moment...let's just have girl of awesomeness fall asleep for two plus years..." I used to have faith in Phil and Kaja could write themselves out of that corner, even when that plot extended beyond the length of the rest of the comic, but that moment destroyed it for me. I don't have problems when people skip ahead, but when characters just get rebooted like that, it really bothers me. While I don't wish to derail the thread, I just wanted to mention that they handed it over to someone else for a while and it is quite zany. You might possibly enjoy it -- I gave up for a while, too, but have gone back to reading it since the change. Although I enjoy following a number of webcomics, GKC has them all beat when it comes to art and story and consistent vision. (And regular updates, too.) Eh I've really hated the temporary author. Here's hoping it gets off to action well when it comes back in a couple weeks. |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 2, 2014 21:21:02 GMT
I haven't been back to read it since they did the lame "Crap. I don't know where else to take the castle plot at the moment...let's just have girl of awesomeness fall asleep for two plus years..." I used to have faith in Phil and Kaja could write themselves out of that corner, even when that plot extended beyond the length of the rest of the comic, but that moment destroyed it for me. I don't have problems when people skip ahead, but when characters just get rebooted like that, it really bothers me. While I don't wish to derail the thread, I just wanted to mention that they handed it over to someone else for a while and it is quite zany. You might possibly enjoy it -- I gave up for a while, too, but have gone back to reading it since the change. Although I enjoy following a number of webcomics, GKC has them all beat when it comes to art and story and consistent vision. (And regular updates, too.) Eh I've really hated the temporary author. Here's hoping it gets off to action well when it comes back in a couple weeks. |
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Post by wanderer on Mar 3, 2014 6:01:41 GMT
...Duuuuude. I get distracted for a weekend and I miss an awesome update. I remain both amazed and somewhat disturbed by the ability of Tom's imagination to come up with stuff like this. I also really really would like to see a bonus chapter showing what that whole trip looked like through Annie's eyes. Also, as MechAngelKat shows, you can be a giant, nightmareish mechmonster and a harmless little schoolgirl at the same time. You know, that sounds like it would make a perfectly good anime! Surely someone's done that by now. I know the "harmless school girl is actually a nightmarish monster" thing has been done, it's getting into the "giant" and "mech" parts that I'm unsure about. |
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Post by sidhekin on Mar 3, 2014 6:19:52 GMT
While I don't wish to derail the thread, I just wanted to mention that they handed it over to someone else for a while and it is quite zany. You might possibly enjoy it -- I gave up for a while, too, but have gone back to reading it since the change. Although I enjoy following a number of webcomics, GKC has them all beat when it comes to art and story and consistent vision. (And regular updates, too.) Eh I've really hated the temporary author. Here's hoping it gets off to action well when it comes back in a couple weeks. "Temporary author"?! The side stories are also written by the Foglios, you know. It's just (for once) a different artist. And "couple weeks"? Ah, no, Phil's art is back today: www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140303... huh. I didn't think they actually had such thin-spread, vulnerable infrastructure as railroads in the sparks' Europa ... |
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