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Post by CoyoteReborn on Nov 27, 2013 5:22:40 GMT
I would like to note that if we are not counting supernatural beings, both Shadow and Robot are out. That brings the count to more normal levels. Of course, the argument that the Gunnerverse's statistics could be different still stands. Not counting supernatural beings?? (splutter) I am offended. I matter too, in the Gunnerverse. So, I have taken the liberty to append to your list: Red/Blue (so cute, those two!) Khepi/her husband (many times over) Renard/Surma (romantic, not sexual) Ysengrin/Annie (as far as you know) Squirrel/Bear ( Wahahaha!!) Me/Everyone (goes without saying, because fanfic) |
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Post by Covalent on Nov 27, 2013 5:22:47 GMT
Hey, you guys are forgetting Bud and Lindsey. That's a couple, too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:24:04 GMT
Magic is just adding a fictional ability to the people of Gunnerkrigg Court. Making the ratio of gay to straight people unrealistically and improbably high is fundamentally altering their nature. I don't see how that's different. The magic isn't part of their minds, their states of being, the way they think, whatever. It's just something they can do, hardly different from my ability to write a letter or throw a baseball. Their sexuality is a fundamental part of how they interact with each other and how they perceive others. Tom can alter the former without making the people themselves unrealistic, but not the latter. |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 5:24:25 GMT
In the real world, 0% of humans practice magic. I don't see that statistic represented in this story. Magic is just adding a fictional ability to the people of Gunnerkrigg Court. Making the ratio of gay to straight people unrealistically and improbably high is fundamentally altering their nature. But here's the thing: who CARES? All statistical arguments aside, why does it even matter if there are an "unrealistic" number of gay people in this comic? Part of the fun of fantasy is being able to create whatever you want. If that means you want every single character in your comic to be gay, what's wrong with that? The same way there's nothing wrong with giving your world an inordinately high population of badgers, or creating a world without shrimp. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:24:59 GMT
I would like to note that if we are not counting supernatural beings, both Shadow and Robot are out. That brings the count to more normal levels. Of course, the argument that the Gunnerverse's statistics could be different still stands. Not counting supernatural beings?? (splutter) I am offended. I matter too, in the Gunnerverse. So, I have taken the liberty to append to your list: Red/Blue (so cute, those two!) Khepi/her husband (many times over) Renard/Surma (romantic, not sexual) Ysengrin/Annie (as far as you know) Squirrel/Bear ( Wahahaha!!) Me/Everyone (goes without saying, because fanfic) I'm not counting you because you're just on an entirely different level than everyone else. All hail Coyote. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:27:01 GMT
Magic is just adding a fictional ability to the people of Gunnerkrigg Court. Making the ratio of gay to straight people unrealistically and improbably high is fundamentally altering their nature. But here's the thing: who CARES? All statistical arguments aside, why does it even matter if there are an "unrealistic" number of gay people in this comic? Part of the fun of fantasy is being able to create whatever you want. If that means you want every single character in your comic to be gay, what's wrong with that? The same way there's nothing wrong with giving your world an inordinately high population of badgers, or creating a world without shrimp. I wouldn't care, but it feels very much like Tom's preaching at us. Are films that cast substantially higher-than-normal amounts of certain ethnicities or other groups okay? |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Nov 27, 2013 5:27:03 GMT
Not counting supernatural beings?? (splutter) I am offended. I matter too, in the Gunnerverse. So, I have taken the liberty to append to your list: Red/Blue (so cute, those two!) Khepi/her husband (many times over) Renard/Surma (romantic, not sexual) Ysengrin/Annie (as far as you know) Squirrel/Bear ( Wahahaha!!) Me/Everyone (goes without saying, because fanfic) I'm not counting you because you're just on an entirely different level than everyone else. All hail Coyote. Good answer. This one knows how to grovel. Everyone, observe his correct attitude of deference. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Nov 27, 2013 5:28:08 GMT
Maybe 10% of all possible characters are gay, we're just seeing the characters that Annie and Kat are around and of those, the percentage is higher than 10. That's just mathematically improbable though. Possible, but improbable and obviously just Tom sticking in gay characters, which is fine, but feels like preaching when you get too many in there. Ok, I'll take this further - do you think the circle of a gay person's friends and acquaintances is only 10% gay? I wouldn't care, but it feels very much like Tom's preaching at us. Are films that cast substantially higher-than-normal amounts of certain ethnicities or other groups okay? SO.MANY.WHITE.PEOPLE.  |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 5:28:59 GMT
Hey, you guys are forgetting Bud and Lindsey. That's a couple, too. Plus Diego/Jeanne. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:30:38 GMT
That's just mathematically improbable though. Possible, but improbable and obviously just Tom sticking in gay characters, which is fine, but feels like preaching when you get too many in there. Ok, I'll take this further - do you think the circle of a gay person's friends and acquaintances is only 10% gay? No (though many gay people I know are friends with a majority of straight people), but Kat didn't know she was gay for the first 30 chapters, and neither did Robot and Shadow (even if that's not really the same). None of them were gay at the beginning, and so a bunch of then apparently straight characters congregated into the same circle only for half of them to be gay. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 5:31:40 GMT
I would like to note that if we are not counting supernatural beings, both Shadow and Robot are out. That brings the count to more normal levels. Of course, the argument that the Gunnerverse's statistics could be different still stands. I counted them because even if they're not physically human, they're both humanoid and act indistinguishably from any of the human characters. As a side note, I think it'd be better if Tom portrayed them as genderless characters. In Adventure Time, the robotic character BMO is androgynous and interchangeably referred to as 'he' or 'she'. Part of the point is that the robots at GKC are more human than those elsewhere. It's one of their defining characteristics, that they are searching for a purpose of sorts and an understanding of the human condition. Sexuality is a large portion thereof. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:32:22 GMT
Honestly guys, I can potentially see this happening in real life, but when it's in a webcomic, I can't see it as anything other than Tom subtly preaching at us.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:33:04 GMT
I counted them because even if they're not physically human, they're both humanoid and act indistinguishably from any of the human characters. As a side note, I think it'd be better if Tom portrayed them as genderless characters. In Adventure Time, the robotic character BMO is androgynous and interchangeably referred to as 'he' or 'she'. Part of the point is that the robots at GKC are more human than those elsewhere. It's one of their defining characteristics, that they are searching for a purpose of sorts and an understanding of the human condition. Sexuality is a large portion thereof. Okay, so they're very human and arguably not supernatural. My point stands. |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 5:34:32 GMT
But here's the thing: who CARES? All statistical arguments aside, why does it even matter if there are an "unrealistic" number of gay people in this comic? Part of the fun of fantasy is being able to create whatever you want. If that means you want every single character in your comic to be gay, what's wrong with that? The same way there's nothing wrong with giving your world an inordinately high population of badgers, or creating a world without shrimp. I wouldn't care, but it feels very much like Tom's preaching at us. Are films that cast substantially higher-than-normal amounts of certain ethnicities or other groups okay? Of course they are? Did you really just ask that question? I see recasts of popular things all the time using minority casts and I think they're fabulous. Also, this comic is far from preachy. It's actually pretty subtle in it's storytelling and messages. It just happens that Tom's fantasy world involves a lot of gay couples. Which is fantastic if you ask me. The fact that you keep saying you're being preached at is just coming across kinda defensive on your part. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:39:12 GMT
I wouldn't care, but it feels very much like Tom's preaching at us. Are films that cast substantially higher-than-normal amounts of certain ethnicities or other groups okay? Of course they are? Did you really just ask that question? I see recasts of popular things all the time using minority casts and I think they're fabulous. Also, this comic is far from preachy. It's actually pretty subtle in it's storytelling and messages. It just happens that Tom's fantasy world involves a lot of gay couples. Which is fantastic if you ask me. It's very subtle, but making the people have entirely realistic personalities except for this is very definitely preaching. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 5:41:34 GMT
Part of the point is that the robots at GKC are more human than those elsewhere. It's one of their defining characteristics, that they are searching for a purpose of sorts and an understanding of the human condition. Sexuality is a large portion thereof. Okay, so they're very human and arguably not supernatural. My point stands. My point from earlier does as well. Supernatural characters are very human-like in their morality and actions in GKC, and should be counted here for accuracy. So, current tally of all characters, in no particular order (statistical purposes): Gay: Red, Blue, Paz, Robot, Shadow, Zimmy, Gamma Possibly bisexual: Kat, Coyote Straight: Khepi, Renard, Surma, Tony, Ysengrin, Annie, Bud, Lindsey, Annie, Jack, Andrew, Parley, Anja, Donald, Jimmy-Jims, John, Margo, Janet, Randy Disaster, Janet, William, Brinnie, Bob, Marcia, Jeanne, Diego, Aly Seems pretty statistically valid to me. Or at least, close enough. The last couple chapters just have focussed more on the homosexual characters; Tom is exploring something the comic has not before directly addressed among the cast. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:42:46 GMT
Okay, so they're very human and arguably not supernatural. My point stands. My point from earlier does as well. Supernatural characters are very human-like in their morality here, and should be counted here for accuracy. So, current tally of all characters, in no particular order (statistical purposes): Gay: Red, Blue, Paz, Robot, Shadow, Zimmy, Gamma Possibly bisexual: Kat, Coyote Straight: Khepi, Renard, Surma, Tony, Ysengrin, Annie, Bud, Lindsey, Annie, Jack, Andrew, Parley, Anja, Donald, Jimmy-Jims, John, Margo, Janet, Randy Disaster, Janet, William, Brinnie, Bob, Marcia, Jeanne, Diego, Aly Seems pretty statistically valid to me. Or at least, close enough. The last couple chapters just have focussed on the homosexual characters; Tom is exploring something the comic has not before directly addressed among the cast. My point though was that Shadow and Robot are basically human characters in non-human bodies. Coyote and Ysengrin and Jones and those sorts of characters aren't. Coyote being bisexual is baseless. I think he's probably asexual. Red and Blue being gay is iffy at best. And for the third time in this thread, I'm talking about main characters, which doesn't include characters like Bob and Aly. The secondary characters conform to more realistic standards, but the main characters are mysteriously 50% gay. |
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Post by spritznar on Nov 27, 2013 5:43:52 GMT
Honestly guys, I can potentially see this happening in real life, but when it's in a webcomic, I can't see it as anything other than Tom subtly preaching at us. ok, back up. if you "can potentially see this happening in real life" then what is your argument that it's unrealistic based on? |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 5:44:21 GMT
Of course they are? Did you really just ask that question? I see recasts of popular things all the time using minority casts and I think they're fabulous. Also, this comic is far from preachy. It's actually pretty subtle in it's storytelling and messages. It just happens that Tom's fantasy world involves a lot of gay couples. Which is fantastic if you ask me. It's very subtle, but making the people have entirely realistic personalities except for this is very definitely preaching. I'm going to blow right past this whole "realistic" issue because apparently it's like talking to a brick wall at this point. Instead I'm going to ask: if he is preaching, what exactly is he preaching? What message is he trying to send? |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Nov 27, 2013 5:45:14 GMT
I think he's probably asexual. I am pansexual, actually. You are precisely incorrect. DO WE NEED TO REPEAT THE SPANKIES TO PROVE THIS? |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 5:50:01 GMT
My point though was that Shadow and Robot are basically human characters in non-human bodies. Coyote and Ysengrin and Jones and those sorts of characters aren't. Coyote being bisexual is baseless.Hence the 'possibly'. And what makes a 'human' character? Body shape? Both Renard and Coyote can fulfill that requirement. It more lies in actions and characterization. Robot has a more alien mentality than Renard, certainly, and perhaps Coyote as well. All of the non-human characters have acted human in thought, word, and deed. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:50:22 GMT
Honestly guys, I can potentially see this happening in real life, but when it's in a webcomic, I can't see it as anything other than Tom subtly preaching at us. ok, back up. if you "can potentially see this happening in real life" then what is your argument of that it's unrealistic based on? It's because it's a fictional story and because of the current mood in our society regarding homosexuality. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:51:57 GMT
It's very subtle, but making the people have entirely realistic personalities except for this is very definitely preaching. I'm going to blow right past this whole "realistic" issue because apparently it's like talking to a brick wall at this point. Instead I'm going to ask: if he is preaching, what exactly is he preaching? What message is he trying to send? Seriously? He's pushing a pro-gay agenda. Disclaimer, not homophobic, I just hate being preached at. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 5:52:23 GMT
ok, back up. if you "can potentially see this happening in real life" then what is your argument of that it's unrealistic based on? It's because it's a fictional story and because of the current mood in our society regarding homosexuality. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? This is the second-worst comparison I have seen today. The analogy does not function here. The worst was 'gay=cocaine'. This issue over realism, in contrast, is really not worth arguing, people. |
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Post by Covalent on Nov 27, 2013 5:52:26 GMT
Actually, I think 1950s Tom would be getting his ration card stamped, on account of World War II having only ended 5 or so years prior.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:53:35 GMT
It's because it's a fictional story and because of the current mood in our society regarding homosexuality. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? This is the second-worst comparison I have seen today. The analogy does not function here. The worst was 'gay=cocaine'. This issue over realism, in contrast, is really not worth arguing, people. It's a pretty good comparison. In the 1950s, black people were fairly often irrationally seen as inferior. In the 2000s, gay people are fairly often irrationally seen as inferior. The civil rights movement is entirely analogous to the gay rights movement. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 27, 2013 5:56:50 GMT
ok, back up. if you "can potentially see this happening in real life" then what is your argument of that it's unrealistic based on? It's because it's a fictional story and because of the current mood in our society regarding homosexuality. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? I'd probably be inclined to think "Damn I wish it were a couple decades later than this so I could just get born already!" I'd probably also think that he was writing about a neighborhood in which there just happens to be a good number of black people? Because, you know, that actually happens? Even back in the 1950's? You may or may not be homophobic, but you certainly do smack more than a little bit of being paranoid. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 5:58:40 GMT
It's because it's a fictional story and because of the current mood in our society regarding homosexuality. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? I'd probably be inclined to think "Damn I wish it were a couple decades later than this so I could just get born already!" I'd probably also think that he was writing about a neighborhood in which there just happens to be a good number of black people? Because, you know, that actually happens? Even back in the 1950's? You may or may not be homophobic, but you certainly do smack more than a little bit of being paranoid. Gunnerkrigg Court gathers people from everywhere, and it wouldn't make any sense for one group to be preferred. Not homophobic, I just want a realistic representation of people. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Nov 27, 2013 5:59:10 GMT
Seriously? He's pushing a pro-gay agenda. Disclaimer, not homophobic, I just hate being preached at. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? Pushing the terrible, horrible agenda that black people are fully human and deserve equal rights and opportunities? What an awful thing to do! Gunnerkrigg Court gathers people from everywhere, and it wouldn't make any sense for one group to be preferred. Not homophobic, I just want a realistic representation of people. Just seriously obsessed with that 10% figure is all, hm? I still think you're confusing your subset with your superset, but whatever. I'm done with this line of posting. |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 6:00:42 GMT
I'm going to blow right past this whole "realistic" issue because apparently it's like talking to a brick wall at this point. Instead I'm going to ask: if he is preaching, what exactly is he preaching? What message is he trying to send? Seriously? He's pushing a pro-gay agenda. Disclaimer, not homophobic, I just hate being preached at. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? Yes, I would. An agenda of tolerance and understanding and anti-racism OH GOD THE HORROR THE HORROR. Thank you for confirming exactly what I thought about your motivations. I can't even be offended this is just too absurd. FYI: the fact that racism was more prevalent in the 1950s does not make being racist in the 1950s somehow OK. |
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