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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:01:22 GMT
It's a pretty good comparison. In the 1950s, black people were fairly often irrationally seen as inferior. In the 2000s, gay people are fairly often irrationally seen as inferior. Honestly, if we want to push this analogy, I would have applauded someone with the guts to say that in the 50s. Maybe it is (considering some earlier comments here and on the comments page) worth preaching about. At least we agree that stereotypes are irrational here. Can we please drop this issue? It's neither important nor is it going anywhere. We can't drop it because I'm bored and I like arguing about pointless shit. While putting black people in an equal position to white people in a 1950s comic would take tremendous guts, making half of the people black would be unrealistic (especially if you're plucking people from all over the world, as the Court does). |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 6:01:56 GMT
This is the second-worst comparison I have seen today. The analogy does not function here. The worst was 'gay=cocaine'. This issue over realism, in contrast, is really not worth arguing, people. It's a pretty good comparison. In the 1950s, black people were fairly often irrationally seen as inferior. In the 2000s, gay people are fairly often irrationally seen as inferior. Honestly, if we want to push this analogy, I would have applauded someone with the guts to say that in the 50s. Maybe it is (considering some earlier comments here and on the comments page) worth preaching about. At least we agree that stereotypes are irrational here. Can we please drop this particular issue? It's neither important nor is it going anywhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:02:16 GMT
Seriously? He's pushing a pro-gay agenda. Disclaimer, not homophobic, I just hate being preached at. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? Pushing the terrible, horrible agenda that black people are fully human and deserve equal rights and opportunities? What an awful thing to do! It's a fine agenda to push, but making 50% of the main characters black would be overdoing it and would be too in-your-face preachy. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 27, 2013 6:03:22 GMT
Honestly, if we want to push this analogy, I would have applauded someone with the guts to say that in the 50s. Maybe it is (considering some earlier comments here and on the comments page) worth preaching about. At least we agree that stereotypes are irrational here. Can we please drop this issue? It's neither important nor is it going anywhere. We can't drop it because I'm bored and I like arguing about pointless shit. While putting black people in an equal position to white people in a 1950s comic would take tremendous guts, making half of the people black would be unrealistic (especially if you're plucking people from all over the world, as the Court does). Well, I am tired and not sufficiently interested to continue. So, in fact, we I can drop it. With all due respect, g'night. |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 6:04:13 GMT
Pushing the terrible, horrible agenda that black people are fully human and deserve equal rights and opportunities? What an awful thing to do! It's a fine agenda to push, but making 50% of the main characters black would be overdoing it and would be too in-your-face preachy. Because we all know that simply representing the status quo does fabulous things to change the problems inherent in our society. Oh wait. No it doesn't. It does the opposite of that. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:04:56 GMT
Seriously? He's pushing a pro-gay agenda. Disclaimer, not homophobic, I just hate being preached at. If Gunnerkrigg Court were being drawn in the 1950s and 50% of the main characters were black, wouldn't you be inclined to think that 1950s Tom was pushing an agenda? Yes, I would. An agenda of tolerance and understanding and anti-racism OH GOD THE HORROR THE HORROR. Thank you for confirming exactly what I thought about your motivations. I can't even be offended this is just too absurd. FYI: the fact that racism was more prevalent in the 1950s does not make being racist in the 1950s somehow OK. Just as happened on Reddit, I've been accused of being homophobic. Brilliant. I just want realistic demographics. Being pro-gay doesn't mean you have to make half of your main characters gay, because guess what? I'm not pro-gay or pro-straight. I just want realism. Jesus Christ, you people. |
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Post by spritznar on Nov 27, 2013 6:05:37 GMT
i had a typo in my post and i didn't see it till it had been quoted and now it's going to annoy me forever...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:06:54 GMT
It's a fine agenda to push, but making 50% of the main characters black would be overdoing it and would be too in-your-face preachy. Because we all know that simply representing the status quo does fabulous things to change the problems inherent in our society. Oh wait. No it doesn't. It does the opposite of that. Okay, it's a slightly off analogy because the percentage of certain ethnicities and their socioeconomic statuses can dramatically fluctuate over time. Considering that homosexuality is largely a function of genetics, it doesn't. In Gunnerkrigg, therefore, the status quo, i.e. the percentage of gay people, should align with the percentage in actual society. |
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Post by spritznar on Nov 27, 2013 6:10:08 GMT
Because we all know that simply representing the status quo does fabulous things to change the problems inherent in our society. Oh wait. No it doesn't. It does the opposite of that. Okay, it's a slightly off analogy because the percentage of certain ethnicities and their socioeconomic statuses can dramatically fluctuate over time. Considering that homosexuality is largely a function of genetics, it doesn't. In Gunnerkrigg, therefore, the status quo, i.e. the percentage of gay people, should align with the percentage in actual society. because ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics... and seriously, your understanding of statistics and how they relate to the real world is pretty ridiculous |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Nov 27, 2013 6:10:18 GMT
i had a typo in my post and i didn't see it till it had been quoted and now it's going to annoy me forever... I know, right? It'd be nice if fixing your post fixed the quote, but I can understand why that's a bad idea. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 27, 2013 6:11:51 GMT
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. The Court does pull people from all over the world, but the only statistic they care about is whether or not the people in question are etherically active or otherwise gifted to supernormal levels. They most surely did not go picking through all the people available in that set and go "Wow, this kid would be great for our school! Oh, but wait, he's gay and we've already hit our 10% quota. Guess we should go with this slightly less gifted heterosexual kid." |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:12:55 GMT
Okay, it's a slightly off analogy because the percentage of certain ethnicities and their socioeconomic statuses can dramatically fluctuate over time. Considering that homosexuality is largely a function of genetics, it doesn't. In Gunnerkrigg, therefore, the status quo, i.e. the percentage of gay people, should align with the percentage in actual society. because ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics... and seriously, your understanding of statistics and how they relate to the real world is pretty ridiculous Regardless of the cause, ethnic percentages hugely fluctuate and the percentage of gay people doesn't. The percentage of Latinos in the United States has increased over the last century. During the European immigration to America, the percentage of Caucasian people dramatically increased. As long as it's been measured, the percentage of gay people has held between 5 and 15%, depending on what study you look at. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:14:07 GMT
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. The Court does pull people from all over the world, but the only statistic they care about is whether or not the people in question are etherically active or otherwise gifted to supernormal levels. They most surely did not go picking through all the people available in that set and go "Wow, this kid would be great for our school! Oh, but wait, he's gay and we've already hit our 10% quota. Guess we should go with this slightly less gifted heterosexual kid." Of course I'm not saying that. As the court pulls in more and more people, assuming that they don't consider being gay/straight when selecting people, the Court's percentage of gay people should approach the global average. |
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Post by Covalent on Nov 27, 2013 6:14:06 GMT
I sort of wish Tom could just step in and settle everything once and for all. Speaking from a neutral standpoint: too much argument.  |
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Post by spritznar on Nov 27, 2013 6:15:43 GMT
because ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics... and seriously, your understanding of statistics and how they relate to the real world is pretty ridiculous Regardless of the cause, ethnic percentages hugely fluctuate and the percentage of gay people doesn't. The percentage of Latinos in the United States has increased over the last century. During the European immigration to America, the percentage of Caucasian people dramatically increased. As long as it's been measured, the percentage of gay people has held between 5 and 15%, depending on what study you look at. so you're saying if more gay people immigrated to the court it would have a higher than 10% gay population then? you're looking at ethnic statistics in a specifc area and saying they fluctuate and then looking at gay statistics globally and saying they don't. if you look at ethnic statistics globally i bet they fluctuate much less (and conversely gay statistics for specific areas fluctuate more) |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 6:17:02 GMT
Yes, I would. An agenda of tolerance and understanding and anti-racism OH GOD THE HORROR THE HORROR. Thank you for confirming exactly what I thought about your motivations. I can't even be offended this is just too absurd. FYI: the fact that racism was more prevalent in the 1950s does not make being racist in the 1950s somehow OK. Just as happened on Reddit, I've been accused of being homophobic. Brilliant. I just want realistic demographics. Being pro-gay doesn't mean you have to make half of your main characters gay, because guess what? I'm not pro-gay or pro-straight. I just want realism. Jesus Christ, you people. I never once used the word homophobe, but ok bro. Also, just a hint: if multiple people in multiple places have told you that what you're saying is homophobic, maybe you should stop and examine the things you are saying and the reasons behind them, rather than going on the defensive and playing the victim. There are a lot of things in this comic that could be called unrealistic (a lot more unrealistic than a lot of gay people in once place), and the fact that this is the only thing you object to out of all those things speaks volumes. Also, saying you're neutral on something like the issue of homosexuality (or race if we wanna hark back to that metaphor) is not a get out of jail free card. "I don't care" is as much a part of the problem as hate is. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:18:46 GMT
Regardless of the cause, ethnic percentages hugely fluctuate and the percentage of gay people doesn't. The percentage of Latinos in the United States has increased over the last century. During the European immigration to America, the percentage of Caucasian people dramatically increased. As long as it's been measured, the percentage of gay people has held between 5 and 15%, depending on what study you look at. so you're saying if more gay people immigrated to the court it would have a higher than 10% gay population then? you're looking at ethnic statistics in one area and saying they fluctuate and then looking at gay statistics globally and saying they don't. if you look at ethnic statistics globally i bet they fluctuate much less Okay, so forget ethnicity, I originally brought that into play as an analogy. The point is, friend, that: a) the percentage of gay people globally doesn't fluctuate very much b) the court pulls people from all around the world c) the court is unlikely to consider things like sexuality when selecting people It follow from very simple, very unbiased, very objective logic that as the population of the court increases, the percentage of gay people living in the court approaches the global average. |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 6:20:33 GMT
I sort of wish Tom could just step in and settle everything once and for all. Speaking from a neutral standpoint: too much argument. This is actually pretty tame compared to a lot of fandoms I've been in. Nobody's invoked Godwin's Law yet  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:21:26 GMT
I sort of wish Tom could just step in and settle everything once and for all. Speaking from a neutral standpoint: too much argument. This is actually pretty tame compared to a lot of fandoms I've been in. Nobody's invoked Godwin's Law yet You're Hitler! |
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Post by spritznar on Nov 27, 2013 6:28:09 GMT
so you're saying if more gay people immigrated to the court it would have a higher than 10% gay population then? you're looking at ethnic statistics in one area and saying they fluctuate and then looking at gay statistics globally and saying they don't. if you look at ethnic statistics globally i bet they fluctuate much less Okay, so forget ethnicity, I originally brought that into play as an analogy. The point is, friend, that: a) the percentage of gay people globally doesn't fluctuate very much b) the court pulls people from all around the world c) the court is unlikely to consider things like sexuality when selecting people It follow from very simple, very unbiased, very objective logic that as the population of the court increases, the percentage of gay people living in the court approaches the global average. even if the overall court population has 10% gay people, that doesn't mean a sample from the court (ie the main cast) has to exactly correlate to that statistic, especially if you're restricting the definitions of the sample to 12 people and arbitrarily excluding some characters because it suits you. the percentage of gay people in america might be 10% but the percentage of gay people in my house right now is 25%, and still reality hasn't broken. it's not that there are more gay characters in gunnerkrigg overall, it's that those gay characters are centrally located in the storyline that you're objecting to. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:32:07 GMT
Okay, so forget ethnicity, I originally brought that into play as an analogy. The point is, friend, that: a) the percentage of gay people globally doesn't fluctuate very much b) the court pulls people from all around the world c) the court is unlikely to consider things like sexuality when selecting people It follow from very simple, very unbiased, very objective logic that as the population of the court increases, the percentage of gay people living in the court approaches the global average. even if the overall court population has 10% gay people, that doesn't mean a sample from the court (ie the main cast) has to exactly correlate to that statistic, especially if you're restricting the definitions of the sample to 12 people and arbitrarily excluding some characters because it suits you. the percentage of gay people in america might be 10% but the percentage of gay people in my house right now is 25%, and still reality hasn't broken. it's not that there are more gay characters in gunnerkrigg overall, it's that those gay characters are centrally located in the storyline that you're objecting to. It's the fact that an unrealistic abundance of gay characters are central to the storyline that makes it obviously pushing an agenda, and it's the agenda-pushing that I have beef with. If I wanted agendas pushed on me I'd go read /r/politics or watch Fox News. I read Gunnerkrigg Court because it's an incredible fantasy world with great characters that lets me escape from the real world. I don't want to be reminded that our society is homophobic or that the author of the series I'm reading might be pushing an agenda. |
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 6:37:32 GMT
even if the overall court population has 10% gay people, that doesn't mean a sample from the court (ie the main cast) has to exactly correlate to that statistic, especially if you're restricting the definitions of the sample to 12 people and arbitrarily excluding some characters because it suits you. the percentage of gay people in america might be 10% but the percentage of gay people in my house right now is 25%, and still reality hasn't broken. it's not that there are more gay characters in gunnerkrigg overall, it's that those gay characters are centrally located in the storyline that you're objecting to. It's the fact that an unrealistic abundance of gay characters are central to the storyline that makes it obviously pushing an agenda, and it's the agenda-pushing that I have beef with. If I wanted agendas pushed on me I'd go read /r/politics or watch Fox News. I read Gunnerkrigg Court because it's an incredible fantasy world with great characters that lets me escape from the real world. I don't want to be reminded that our society is homophobic or that the author of the series I'm reading might be pushing an agenda. Protip: this comic isn't being written for your own personal escapism. If Tom wants to "push a pro gay agenda" then good for him. I wish more people would. You don't want to be reminded that homophobia exists? Tough titties. If you don't like comics with abundance of gay central characters, I'm sure you can find something else to read. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:41:44 GMT
It's the fact that an unrealistic abundance of gay characters are central to the storyline that makes it obviously pushing an agenda, and it's the agenda-pushing that I have beef with. If I wanted agendas pushed on me I'd go read /r/politics or watch Fox News. I read Gunnerkrigg Court because it's an incredible fantasy world with great characters that lets me escape from the real world. I don't want to be reminded that our society is homophobic or that the author of the series I'm reading might be pushing an agenda. Protip: this comic isn't being written for your own personal escapism. If Tom wants to "push a pro gay agenda" then good for him. I wish more people would. You don't want to be reminded that homophobia exists? Tough titties. If you don't like comics with abundance of gay central characters, I'm sure you can find something else to read. And if I want to complain about it, I will. You can push an agenda without being in your face. When you start throwing in unrealistic scenarios created for the purpose of pushing your agenda, it starts to get in your face. Having a realistic amount of gay characters would have shown the audience that yes, there are gay characters at the Court, but it wouldn't have been in-your-face-I'm-pushing-an-agenda about it. |
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Post by spritznar on Nov 27, 2013 6:42:24 GMT
even if the overall court population has 10% gay people, that doesn't mean a sample from the court (ie the main cast) has to exactly correlate to that statistic, especially if you're restricting the definitions of the sample to 12 people and arbitrarily excluding some characters because it suits you. the percentage of gay people in america might be 10% but the percentage of gay people in my house right now is 25%, and still reality hasn't broken. it's not that there are more gay characters in gunnerkrigg overall, it's that those gay characters are centrally located in the storyline that you're objecting to. It's the fact that an unrealistic abundance of gay characters are central to the storyline that makes it obviously pushing an agenda, and it's the agenda-pushing that I have beef with. If I wanted agendas pushed on me I'd go read /r/politics or watch Fox News. I read Gunnerkrigg Court because it's an incredible fantasy world with great characters that lets me escape from the real world. I don't want to be reminded that our society is homophobic or that the author of the series I'm reading might be pushing an agenda. every narrative has an agenda. history tells us what's happened so we can anticipate the future, character studies tell us about ourselves and social interactions, and fantasy tells us about the human condition and what could be. you just don't like what this narrative is telling you, for whatever reason. maybe because it's not the world you want to see, maybe because it's not focused on you, i don't know, but saying you dislike it because it's "unrealistic" is disingenious. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 27, 2013 6:42:33 GMT
Of course I'm not saying that. As the court pulls in more and more people, assuming that they don't consider being gay/straight when selecting people, the Court's percentage of gay people should approach the global average. Ah, so we are talking about the Court's population as a whole instead of just the main characters now? In any case, once again, just for good measure, then I think I'm outta this conversation. "Should" and "will" are not the same thing, statistics neither completely inform reality nor always reliably reflect it, reality does not always conform to a person's perception of what reality should be, when you deal with such a infinitesimally smaller subset than superset you heighten the chances of statistical anomalies, and add on that random chance can make a mockery of any statistic. And in conclusion, the possibly-insults, for that quasi-ad-hominem flavor that no internet debate can really do without. Your cries of agenda pushing are paranoiac, your analogies and theoretical proposals are borderline (at the very least) offensive and specious, you put fictional settings up to unrealistic standards of realism, and you probably smell bad. Which, hey, I smell bad too, but that's beside the point. Now, all that said, I say we get back to the only truly important discussion: RPGs. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:44:35 GMT
It's the fact that an unrealistic abundance of gay characters are central to the storyline that makes it obviously pushing an agenda, and it's the agenda-pushing that I have beef with. If I wanted agendas pushed on me I'd go read /r/politics or watch Fox News. I read Gunnerkrigg Court because it's an incredible fantasy world with great characters that lets me escape from the real world. I don't want to be reminded that our society is homophobic or that the author of the series I'm reading might be pushing an agenda. every narrative has an agenda. history tells us what's happened so we can anticipate the future, character studies tell us about ourselves and social interactions, and fantasy tells us about the human condition and what could be. you just don't like what this narrative is telling you, for whatever reason. maybe because it's not the world you want to see, maybe because it's not focused on you, i don't know, but saying you dislike it because it's "unrealistic" is disingenious. As I detailed in my previous post, you can push an agenda without being obvious about it. Creating a realistic amount of gay characters would have made aware to the reader that yes, there are gay characters at the court without being in your face about it. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Nov 27, 2013 6:44:50 GMT
I remember reading a book where the author was pushing the agenda that data is a plural verb dagnabit! Kids these days! And writers! Having opinions! Truly man is born unto trouble as the sparks fly upward.
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Momo
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Post by Momo on Nov 27, 2013 6:46:29 GMT
Protip: this comic isn't being written for your own personal escapism. If Tom wants to "push a pro gay agenda" then good for him. I wish more people would. You don't want to be reminded that homophobia exists? Tough titties. If you don't like comics with abundance of gay central characters, I'm sure you can find something else to read. And if I want to complain about it, I will. You can push an agenda without being in your face. When you start throwing in unrealistic scenarios created for the purpose of pushing your agenda, it starts to get in your face. Having a realistic amount of gay characters would have shown the audience that yes, there are gay characters at the Court, but it wouldn't have been in-your-face-I'm-pushing-an-agenda about it. The fact that you think this is pushy and in your face is really honestly baffling me. Like... it just does not compute. FATAL SYSTEM ERROR. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 6:47:08 GMT
And if I want to complain about it, I will. You can push an agenda without being in your face. When you start throwing in unrealistic scenarios created for the purpose of pushing your agenda, it starts to get in your face. Having a realistic amount of gay characters would have shown the audience that yes, there are gay characters at the Court, but it wouldn't have been in-your-face-I'm-pushing-an-agenda about it. The fact that you think this is pushy and in your face is really honestly baffling me. Like... it just does not compute. FATAL SYSTEM ERROR. It's unrealistic! Demographics! Rabble rabble! |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 27, 2013 6:47:21 GMT
Honestly guys, I can potentially see this happening in real life, but when it's in a webcomic, I can't see it as anything other than Tom subtly preaching at us. ok, back up. if you "can potentially see this happening in real life" then what is your argument that it's unrealistic based on? Well  |
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