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Post by Daedalus on Nov 26, 2013 5:15:13 GMT
Nnelg, in addition to the fact that you invited me to, I'm calling you homophobic. I'm also calling you a bigot. Since you are happy to wear these labels and do not feel ashamed of yourself, I would like you to answer the following: What outcome are you hoping to achieve by posting inflammatory messages on a webcomic fans' forum? This is what snipergirl was asking. Why do you remark of other people's politeness with you, and bring attention to the fact that you were expecting to be provocative? Do we have any reason to not simply hide you posts from now on? That certainly escalated quickly. I disagree with Nnelg's opinion, but as he had the decency to remain civil about it, I feel obligated to do the same. Hypocrisy - accusing people of inflammatory posts given yours - is ironic, and not encouraged here. |
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Momo
Junior Member
Big meanie jerkface
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Post by Momo on Nov 26, 2013 5:28:56 GMT
See here is the crux of the problem though... while I don't agree with Ty's post (everyone has a right to post what they want and engage in discussion about it if they desire), I think complacency towards attitudes such as Nnelg's feed into a much bigger problem. Civil polite debate sometimes has the side effect of giving people the idea that their bigoted opinions are valid opinions and something to just "agree to disagree" on rather than seriously harmful things that they should work on changing. Whether it's about sexual preference, gender, race, etc.
(Note: despite how I'm sure it sounds, I'm not trying to use bigoted as an insult here. It's just the best all-encompassing dictionary definition term).
I do think when something has to be prefaced with "unpopular opinion, but" or "I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this, but" it is usually posted with the intent to stir people up, which rubs me the wrong way a bit.
That said, this isn't a political forum and I kinda wish we could have gotten through this arc without having a brouhaha. But here it is.
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 26, 2013 5:33:12 GMT
See here is the crux of the problem though... while I don't agree with Ty's post (everyone has a right to post what they want and engage in discussion about it if they desire), I think complacency towards attitudes such as Nnelg's feed into a much bigger problem. Civil polite debate sometimes has the side effect of giving people the idea that their bigoted opinions are valid opinions and something to just "agree to disagree" on rather than seriously harmful things that they should work on changing. Whether it's about sexual preference, gender, race, etc. (Note: despite how I'm sure it sounds, I'm not trying to use bigoted as an insult here. It's just the best all-encompassing dictionary definition term). That said, this isn't a political forum and I kinda wish we could have gotten through this arc without having a brewhaha. But here it is. It is a conundrum, isn't it? Respond politely, and perpetuate acceptance of an idea that should not be spread. Respond non-civilly, and there's no progress at all - it just becomes one of the discussion boards seen everywhere that political discussions live. I choose the former, but the optimum choice varies with one's values. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 26, 2013 5:36:17 GMT
Brouhaha?
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lit
Full Member
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Post by lit on Nov 26, 2013 5:44:42 GMT
This forum seems to me to be very strongly pro-gay. For instance, there have been several claims that Paz/Kat breaking up and resuming heterosexual behavior would be a "cop out", which makes no sense at all in my mind. It's just another direction the plot could go, as arbitrary as them getting together in the first place. Turning straight after a short stint of gayness is just as plausible as (if not more than) turning gay after a longer period of straitness. There are reasons besides plausibility that Paz and Kat turning out to be heterosexual would be distasteful to people. I wouldn't mind so much if Kat ended up with a guy, as long as it was done sensitively. Queer representation in the media has been improving, but there is still not a ton of it, and a lot of it that exists relies on certain tropes. I don't know if the way I explain this will mean much to you, given your views. But it means something to me. There's a tendency not to take certain identities seriously. For example, different forms of media tend - to portray bisexuality as a phase and imply that bisexuals move on to become 'fully' homosexual or heterosexual. Bisexuality is often not seen as a full orientation. - or to always portray women's relationships with other women as secondary to their relationships with men. This erases and disestablishes queer relationships and identities. There's already so many straight characters and romances for straight people to identify with. But it is meaningful to me to see a queer relationship taken seriously in a comic I love. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 26, 2013 5:48:19 GMT
Just curious. I did some looking around and didn't see another thread discussing this, so I thought I'd make my own (possibly there's one buried back, apologies if so). After more than seven years of reading Gunnerkrigg Court, I signed up for this forum just to see how other people feel about it. Personally, I'm a little thrown. Which is really surprising, I thought for sure I'd be all for it. Hell, I'm gay myself. And yet for whatever reason, I feel remarkably "meh" about Kat's same sex relationship. I don't know, I guess she just didn't seem it to me. It's not bad! I'm sure I'll warm up to. This must be how my parents felt? -DT PS. And of course, we don't really know whether Kat is gay, bi, experimenting, or doesn't give a damn about any such labels and just likes who she likes. I'm just making an assumption here. This has almost certainly been the most successful first post in history, judging purely by the number and speed of responses it generated. Four pages in a day may be a record. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 26, 2013 5:52:34 GMT
Just curious. I did some looking around and didn't see another thread discussing this, so I thought I'd make my own (possibly there's one buried back, apologies if so). After more than seven years of reading Gunnerkrigg Court, I signed up for this forum just to see how other people feel about it. Personally, I'm a little thrown. Which is really surprising, I thought for sure I'd be all for it. Hell, I'm gay myself. And yet for whatever reason, I feel remarkably "meh" about Kat's same sex relationship. I don't know, I guess she just didn't seem it to me. It's not bad! I'm sure I'll warm up to. This must be how my parents felt? -DT PS. And of course, we don't really know whether Kat is gay, bi, experimenting, or doesn't give a damn about any such labels and just likes who she likes. I'm just making an assumption here. This has almost certainly been the most successful first post in history, judging purely by the number and speed of responses it generated. Four pages in a day may be a record. I hope you're happy with with what you've done, darklingthrush! I hope you're real happy! |
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Momo
Junior Member
Big meanie jerkface
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Post by Momo on Nov 26, 2013 5:56:09 GMT
D'oh. I knew that didn't look right. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 26, 2013 5:59:37 GMT
This has almost certainly been the most successful first post in history, judging purely by the number and speed of responses it generated. Four pages in a day may be a record. I hope you're happy with with what you've done, darklingthrush! I hope you're real happy!Conglaturations! You did a thing!  |
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Post by Covalent on Nov 26, 2013 6:14:36 GMT
Jeez, this thread really blew up. And really, not to put down anyone's beliefs or opinions, but why does anyone even care? I'm just grateful for updates.
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 26, 2013 6:22:39 GMT
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Momo
Junior Member
Big meanie jerkface
Posts: 58
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Post by Momo on Nov 26, 2013 6:24:46 GMT
Jeez, this thread really blew up. And really, not to put down anyone's beliefs or opinions, but why does anyone even care? I'm just grateful for updates. I know that I care because issues like this have actually had an effect on my life, both in emotional and actual practical/financial ways. I will say that I'd rather not have a political rumble on this forum, but it's here so I had to put my two cents in. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 26, 2013 6:35:38 GMT
XKCD is god-tier. It and GC are two of my favorite webcomics.
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Post by Lightice on Nov 26, 2013 7:12:34 GMT
I have something of a problem with Nnelg's attitude, I must say. He finds homosexuality "uncomfortable". Fair enough, we all have our random issues with some everyday things. But back when the question was still open, he saw fit to make fun of people who thought it possible that there might be homosexuality represented in the comic, with the attitude that they must all be pathetic, sex-obsessed fanboys to make that consideration.
Yet he expects understanding and sympathy for being unable to deal with the sexuality of his (once?) favourite character. I can only say that this expresses only hypocricy and narcissism. I don't care what peoole ship or if they find some particular plot-point not to their liking, but if there's something that I deeply dislike it's people who expect the world bend to their personal attitudes and act victimised when it doesn't.
Homosexuality exists and is in no way harmful to anyone in by itself. Tom is willing to acknowledge this in his comic and make his characters deal with the fact. He doesn't sweep plotlines under the rug because somebody might feel uncomfortable about them. And somebody who insists that they can't see how homosexuality could be a positive thing must have never met a single gay person in their life.
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 26, 2013 7:26:54 GMT
It's as I always say: "Sometimes dudes have sex."
How rude of me: Sometimes ladies have sex too.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Nov 26, 2013 7:33:31 GMT
...Respond politely, and perpetuate acceptance of an idea that should not be spread. Respond non-civilly, and there's no progress at all - it just becomes one of the discussion boards seen everywhere that political discussions live. I choose the former, but the optimum choice varies with one's values. It's possible to be polite and still inform people you disagree with them. The trick is to not let anger or annoyance take over your decision to post. I'm not the best at that, but I'll give it a try here: If heterosexual relationships are based purely on sexual desire, that's hedonism too. The difference in the latter case is that there is an opportunity for sexual relationship to be added on in its rightful purpose: reproduction. I wish I was more versed in classical philosophy. But I suppose I could mention that I don't fully understand the concept of romance in any context; perhaps because I have less social experience than Chapter 1 Antimony. First, sex being for reproduction (only?) is a bit of an odd belief. Even in the Bible, Paul suggests that couples shouldn't go too long without sex. (I'm assuming you're some flavor of Christian, if not, just ignore that.) But then you say that romance doesn't make sense to you. I'm curious as to how you envision romance - for instance, I have a friend who has this very..."girly-girl" idea of romance: husband bringing her breakfast in bed, mowing a heart into the lawn - what I think of as stereotypical romantic gestures. (To balance the "girly-girl", I think the "manly-man" idea of romance divided between growing old together and making some grand sacrifice for family; goal related, now that I think of it, while the girly-girl stuff is event-related. Hm. Anyway) I always thought I never had any patience for romance, when in reality, romance is defined by the people in the relationship. So things like holding hair when she's got a stomach bug and then going out into the cruel winter to get meds, or playing an MMO I don't care much about, but she really enjoys, or just spending time together reading, can be termed romantic. All romance really is is finding someone you're willing to compromise with to an unheard-of degree, who's (hopefully) also willing to compromise with you. I don't know if you'd appreciate his humour at all, but Tim Minchin has a song that my friends and I joke is the best love song ever. And the whole thing is about how he loves his wife and she's awesome and if he didn't have her, he'd likely be married to someone else and be just as happy. Romance! So for Kat and Paz, yeah they're attracted to each other, but they also just enjoy being around each other. As that makes them happy and hurts me not at all, I wish them well. Ok, back to the sex being for reproduction - several posters have asked about hetero couples who can't/won't have kids and I'd like you to answer how you view that - I have a problem with labeling long-term relationships as just hedonistic. One night stands I could see, but relationships are work. (Even the 17th century English wedding ceremony allowed for sex apart from kids and a later bit about marriage being "for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity" is still a decent description of what a lot people seek in a relationship.) (We should consider a digression on whether or not hedonism is, in itself, a bad thing. A world without cookies or beer or art would be a sad place indeed.) ETA: Geez that took a long time for me to write. Three, THREE posts added while I was working out what to say and typing. I have something of a problem with Nnelg's attitude, I must say. He finds homosexuality "uncomfortable". Fair enough, we all have our random issues with some everyday things. But back when the question was still open, he saw fit to make fun of people who thought it possible that there might be homosexuality represented in the comic, with the attitude that they must all be pathetic, sex-obsessed fanboys to make that consideration. Yikes. It's like the guys bitching about the protag of the game Transistor being female. "Oh noes, we cannot possibly identify with a FEMALE. How dare they do this to US." As if there were no women who played Bastion (game by the same company). As if there are no women gamers. As if there were no women/girls who read Harry Potter. Because God knows that women are never asked to identify with a protag that's not like them. /caustic tone |
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 26, 2013 7:35:01 GMT
It's as I always say: "Sometimes dudes have sex." Somewhere, gayness is going down. If you are uncomfortable with that you are going to have many long and sleepless nights. |
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Post by darklingthrush on Nov 26, 2013 7:35:37 GMT
Just curious. I did some looking around and didn't see another thread discussing this, so I thought I'd make my own (possibly there's one buried back, apologies if so). After more than seven years of reading Gunnerkrigg Court, I signed up for this forum just to see how other people feel about it. Personally, I'm a little thrown. Which is really surprising, I thought for sure I'd be all for it. Hell, I'm gay myself. And yet for whatever reason, I feel remarkably "meh" about Kat's same sex relationship. I don't know, I guess she just didn't seem it to me. It's not bad! I'm sure I'll warm up to. This must be how my parents felt? -DT PS. And of course, we don't really know whether Kat is gay, bi, experimenting, or doesn't give a damn about any such labels and just likes who she likes. I'm just making an assumption here. This has almost certainly been the most successful first post in history, judging purely by the number and speed of responses it generated. Four pages in a day may be a record. YEAH WOW HOLY CRAP. I did a thing! I'd been meaning to make an account and post this question for weeks, but work has been keeping me busy. I get back to my apartment, make an account, post this, crash, workfriendserrands and finally get back to check this! Hoping to see a few interesting comments and four pages? I don't even know where to start! I guess I'll just say that, in summary, we feel pretty positive about being gay. Some people are on the fence but accepting (like me), others are all for the PazKat "adorbs", and a small minority are not very receptive. That's really about what I expected, I suppose.. I think the reason I made this thread was to try to sort out how I feel. I still feel a bit awkward about it, but I think that's more personal than having a problem with Kat. Watching Kat embark on opening up about her attraction makes me feel uncomfortable, only because it reminds me how much I have - and how much I haven't. Kat having to face Annie makes me think about all the people in my life I'll have to one day face, and just how heavy that makes me feel. So in conclusion, rock on Kat you awesome gaystraightbiquestioningawesomeengineeringwhateverthehellyouare girl. Thanks for calling me on my shit. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Nov 26, 2013 7:52:04 GMT
So in conclusion, rock on Kat you awesome gaystraightbiquestioningawesomeengineeringwhateverthehellyouare girl. Pazsexual. *d&r* |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 26, 2013 8:01:16 GMT
others are all for the PazKat "adorbs" adorbs. |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 26, 2013 8:35:07 GMT
This has almost certainly been the most successful first post in history, judging purely by the number and speed of responses it generated. Four pages in a day may be a record. I think the reason I made this thread was to try to sort out how I feel. I still feel a bit awkward about it, but I think that's more personal than having a problem with Kat. Watching Kat embark on opening up about her attraction makes me feel uncomfortable, only because it reminds me how much I have - and how much I haven't. Kat having to face Annie makes me think about all the people in my life I'll have to one day face, and just how heavy that makes me feel. Hey, just remember, We're always here for you. These guys are like my third or fourth family. We'd all be willing to help you out. |
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Post by philman on Nov 26, 2013 8:58:28 GMT
A controversy which seems pointless after the fuss has died down. Wow this thread blew up, 2 extra pages added after I Went to bed and before I got up? nice. PEople can dislike homosexual relationshps if they like, that's their right, I've always said you can do what you like as long as it doesn't hurt other people. But debating these things doesn't hurt, and I think polite debate surrounding it (like the majority of the comments here) is the best way to do things. Getting into angry flame wars helps no-one, and indeed having heavy arguments about things has been shown to just make the beliefs of both sides more extreme, so helps no-one in the long run... As for Nnelg's comments, I wonder if he knows many gay people in real life. In general they are exactly like straight people, with the same range of one-night-stand type relationships, long term relationships, relationships with lots of sex, relationships with very little sex, abusive relationships, loving relationships, relationships based on physical attraction, relationships based on mutual love of similar things. In short, the same range of relationships as straight couples (with the possible exception of straight relationships where they get together just to have a baby, although it's debatable how healthy that is anyway...). What one person finds attractive is not what another person finds attractive. Gender is just another aspect of that. I don't find many of my friends' girlfriends attractive (glad we're all anonymous here...) but that doesn't mean their relationships are hedonistic/platonic because I don't see how someone would be attracted to them. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 26, 2013 9:31:02 GMT
Philman: I'd quote you but I get this mess of glitchy code after all my posts if I try. So, I'll just say it here. She's 14? I thought they were all like, 17. o.O Nah. Ages aren't exact since we don't know any of their birthdays, but I think based on school years they're all 14, maybe 15. They were supposed to be around 12 when the series started if I recall and it's been around 2 years since then. Were they 12 when GKC started? In any event, if they were older than 14-15 now, where were their adolescence years? I thought that we just got there. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 26, 2013 9:33:15 GMT
Never knew these exist. But now that I know, my favourite is Rule 45. I have no idea what it means though. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 26, 2013 9:35:44 GMT
This has almost certainly been the most successful first post in history, judging purely by the number and speed of responses it generated. Four pages in a day may be a record. I hope you're happy with with what you've done, darklingthrush! I hope you're real happy!Were you the previous record-holder? Edit: oh, by the way, if you can get Toloc here, I just noticed I triple-posted. Oops. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 26, 2013 9:40:05 GMT
Never knew these exist. But now that I know, my favourite is Rule 45. I have no idea what it means though. |
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Post by Elysium on Nov 26, 2013 10:05:34 GMT
And don't tell me "it was foreshadowed". The "headband of straitness" story was about social awkwardness, worrying about others' perceptions —in which reality is irrelevant. Yes, looking back it makes sense, which is the sign of a well-executed plot twist, but that doesn't mean there was actual evidence that the plot was going to move in this direction. Only that it could have. (And I have yet to see anything other than that which isn't extremely reading into things.) It WAS forshadowed, the "headbang of +5 straightness" was about Kat's sexuality, it could have been about social awkwardness but it wasn't. There isn't any positive or negative light to apply, gayness is as neutral as it can possibly be, gay people just are this way they're not gay to prove something or support something, it's just how they're are Strip your mind of prejudices, and that's how you'll see them. |
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Post by Toloc on Nov 26, 2013 11:16:09 GMT
Here I go not checking in a few hours and then this happens... Well, nothing much to add to the discussion anymore, I mostly agree with snipertom. Still gotta commend Nnelg for at least coming out and giving their two cents knowing the flag they'd get for it. Takes balls to do that. I was hoping someone would come forward and speak up against it. The topic is "How do we feel about...", not "We all think it's awesome...". I do not share or even remotely get their viewpoint, but a one-sided discussion is in no-one's interest and just skews the self image of the community as a whole. zimmyzims: I may or may not have fainted a little |
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lit
Full Member
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Post by lit on Nov 26, 2013 12:31:08 GMT
But then you say that romance doesn't make sense to you. I'm curious as to how you envision romance - for instance, I have a friend who has this very..."girly-girl" idea of romance: husband bringing her breakfast in bed, mowing a heart into the lawn - what I think of as stereotypical romantic gestures. (To balance the "girly-girl", I think the "manly-man" idea of romance divided between growing old together and making some grand sacrifice for family; goal related, now that I think of it, while the girly-girl stuff is event-related. Hm. Anyway) This isn't particularly relevant to the thread at hand, and I don't want to derail too much, but I wanted to point out that your concept of the "girly-girl" version of something is relatively shallow, while your concept of the "manly-man" version is deep and meaningful. I think it's interesting that you chose these words, associated with gender, to get your point across. Was that intentional? |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 26, 2013 15:48:35 GMT
Really, I stop checking this thread for a day and it blows up in my face  So... Thanks for the new webcomic to check out (Duty Calls) and I'll come back when I figure out what's wrong with PazKat now. |
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