Theory: Kat, Robots, and Religion

[thedoctor]

Jan 4, 2014 18:58:03 GMT Kuraru said:

Jan 4, 2014 9:46:51 GMT reiver said:

Or they die en masse. Perhaps in defence of her?

Afterall, dying for your beliefs must make pretty potent fuel, eh?

That works too, and might make a bit more sense - I just thought that Robot having them kill themselves in a mass suicide would be a good climax to the "Robot is super creepy religious" arc.

I'm pretty sure Robot is not going to do the mass suicide thing; he worships Kat, but I doubt that's where he's going with this; just doesn't fit his personality.

[eyemyself]

Jan 6, 2014 3:49:06 GMT Mezzaphor said:

Jan 4, 2014 19:10:47 GMT eyemyself said:

She's had some key moments already: [...] her unspecified science experiment from early one.

If you're suggesting that we might someday find out what exactly was in that science experiment, I sorta doubt it. That struck me as one of those jokes where the entire point is that we don't directly see the <X>, so the reader is forced to imagine the most over-the-top <X> they can imagine. Like Ketrak's appearance.



Totally agreed with the rest of your post.

Oh, I don't think that we will ever find out what the experiment was... but I do think that the episode in question established Zimmy as a "Force to be Reckoned With" and she has continued to demonstrate her potential as a significant player (intentionally or not) in events to come.

[zimmyzims]

Jan 4, 2014 9:46:51 GMT reiver said:

Or they die en masse. Perhaps in defence of her?

Afterall, dying for your beliefs must make pretty potent fuel, eh?

I support this. And then there will soon be a new generation of robots to fight her Godly battles with her.

[GK Sierra]

Jan 6, 2014 16:49:36 GMT zimmyzims said:

Jan 4, 2014 9:46:51 GMT reiver said:

Or they die en masse. Perhaps in defence of her?

Afterall, dying for your beliefs must make pretty potent fuel, eh?

I support this. And then there will soon be a new generation of robots to fight her Godly battles with her.

...fleshy robots...

*shiver*

[The Anarch]

Jan 6, 2014 18:52:46 GMT GK Sierra said:

...fleshy robots...

*shiver*

And they will all look like Robin Williams.

[GK Sierra]

Lets hope they don't all act like Robin Williams, or Antimony will never get any screen time again.

SPOILER: Click to show

I'm starting to think cocaine is God’s way of saying "you’re making too much money".

[Daedalus]

Moving this here:

Jan 10, 2014 14:24:49 GMT tustin2121 said:

Jan 10, 2014 14:03:45 GMT smjjames said:

Since robot is apparently party to the the whole thing, maybe they should ask how the robots would react to Jeanne being freed.

"She died, and we did nothing."
"Well, now's your chance to do something!"
*robots all short circuit while attempting to process the thought*

Edit: actually, seriously, Robot's probably going to use this as fuel for his new religion. The more I think about this, the old religion is "She died, and we did nothing.". But his new religion is throwing off the cloak of Jeanne's death as original sin, with "The Angel freed Jeanne from death" and therefore the original sin is no more. I wonder if the whole robot community IS following Robot, or if Robot's religion is just a cult at this point...?

[Gotolei]

So.. apparently some etheric, possibly death-related properties are verified to exist on Kat.

[Daedalus]

Jan 24, 2014 8:26:12 GMT Gotolei said:

So.. apparently some etheric, possibly death-related properties are verified to exist on Kat.

It warms my heart that my pet speculation thread still is not yet contradicted by Tom.

And yes, something death-related but unfamiliar has been revealed. I wonder when (if?) the meaning of that symbol will finally be revealed.

[atteSmythe]

Beyond it being "the mark of the creator"?

[nightwind]

Maybe the symbol changes its meaning too. Shifting from the mark of the creator to the symbol of the robot angel.

[thedoctor]

Jan 24, 2014 18:18:31 GMT nightwind said:

Maybe the symbol changes its meaning too. Shifting from the mark of the creator to the symbol of the robot angel.

Well, if things continue to go the way they are going, she will probably become the new Creator, as well as their guide to the afterlife

[zimmyhoo]

Jan 24, 2014 18:30:20 GMT thedoctor said:

Jan 24, 2014 18:18:31 GMT nightwind said:

Maybe the symbol changes its meaning too. Shifting from the mark of the creator to the symbol of the robot angel.

Well, if things continue to go the way they are going, she will probably become the new Creator, as well as their guide to the afterlife

I think you're a bit off.  Coyote's a god, but he's not a 'guide to the afterlife'.  If anything, he's the creator of the afterlife, in that through belief in him, souls exist which can be guided to the afterlife, but there's only belief because there is some spark of soul already.  It's recursive, but I strongly disbelieve that Kat is going to be a psychopomp. 

[thedoctor]

Jan 24, 2014 19:58:22 GMT zimmyhoo said:

Jan 24, 2014 18:30:20 GMT thedoctor said:

Well, if things continue to go the way they are going, she will probably become the new Creator, as well as their guide to the afterlife

I think you're a bit off.  Coyote's a god, but he's not a 'guide to the afterlife'.  If anything, he's the creator of the afterlife, in that through belief in him, souls exist which can be guided to the afterlife, but there's only belief because there is some spark of soul already.  It's recursive, but I strongly disbelieve that Kat is going to be a psychopomp. 

Well, there's always a first time for everything... You're probably right though.

[Chancellor]

Human Belief shapes the Ether, so maybe robots are advancing towards a state (say, Kat's leads on the more organic basis) wherein they'll have the same ability. But not the ability to alter Etheric stuff, there's link to the Ether in robots, so what if there's an entirely new emergent power that only robots can access, and Etherics are equally blind to? Same way Human beliefs can cause things to happen to the Ether, if robots advance enough, they might achieve their own influence over another energy.

Maybe not, but all seems to suggest the Court robots' beliefs are effecting noticeable changes, even in the Ether.

Now time for some wild ass guessing:

The Seed Bismuth was an Artificially Intelligent Von Neumann machine, set to grow and construct the Court without a proper workforce. But why is it so enormous, for such a seemingly small population? Most of the Court's surface is a red herring. The vast cityscape is just there for show. Or as a disguise. The true bulk of what the Seed built is underground.

And what it built is memory space, for the storage of robot consciousnesses. The research wing where Robot was held was just a grain of sand on a beach. There's enough space built for the storage of millions, billions, maybe even trillions of individual CPUs-worth of minds. There could even be links to Donlan's Etheric computer, that the Court is one enormous Ether Computer server. And once the job is complete, Robot will have created his Gospel, which judging by his early preaching, will mesh well with the robot populace.

The Administrator bot mentioned that rapid exchange of information (page 212) is common, in that an entire conversation could have been compressed into 1/25th of a second. When Robot has finished the formation of his religion, he'll be plugged into the greater whole of the servers, and will preach it to them there. The first stirrings of a small(?) cult movement has already caused ripples in the Ether. The sudden conversion of what could be trillions of minds...Somebody going to take the fast lane to godhood, and I think that person is Kat.

[GK Sierra]

Jan 25, 2014 21:49:20 GMT Chancellor said:

Now time for some wild ass guessing:

The Seed Bismuth was an Artificially Intelligent Von Neumann machine, set to grow and construct the Court without a proper workforce. But why is it so enormous, for such a seemingly small population? Most of the Court's surface is a red herring. The vast cityscape is just there for show. Or as a disguise. The true bulk of what the Seed built is underground.

And what it built is memory space, for the storage of robot consciousnesses. The research wing where Robot was held was just a grain of sand on a beach. There's enough space built for the storage of millions, billions, maybe even trillions of individual CPUs-worth of minds. There could even be links to Donlan's Etheric computer, that the Court is one enormous Ether Computer server. And once the job is complete, Robot will have created his Gospel, which judging by his early preaching, will mesh well with the robot populace.

The Administrator bot mentioned that rapid exchange of information (page 212) is common, in that an entire conversation could have been compressed into 1/25th of a second. When Robot has finished the formation of his religion, he'll be plugged into the greater whole of the servers, and will preach it to them there. The first stirrings of a small(?) cult movement has already caused ripples in the Ether. The sudden conversion of what could be trillions of minds...Somebody going to take the fast lane to godhood, and I think that person is Kat.

So, vast urban sprawl as decoy? Seems plausible, more plausible then there ever being enough inhabitants to fill those buildings anyway. Either that or the Seed just didn't know when to stop making new cityscape. Maybe the Court is still expanding. Maybe they had to do something drastic to get it to stop.

[zimmyhoo]

Jan 25, 2014 21:49:20 GMT Chancellor said:

Human Belief shapes the Ether, so maybe robots are advancing towards a state (say, Kat's leads on the more organic basis) wherein they'll have the same ability. But not the ability to alter Etheric stuff, there's link to the Ether in robots, so what if there's an entirely new emergent power that only robots can access, and Etherics are equally blind to? Same way Human beliefs can cause things to happen to the Ether, if robots advance enough, they might achieve their own influence over another energy.

Maybe not, but all seems to suggest the Court robots' beliefs are effecting noticeable changes, even in the Ether.

Now time for some wild ass guessing:

The Seed Bismuth was an Artificially Intelligent Von Neumann machine, set to grow and construct the Court without a proper workforce. But why is it so enormous, for such a seemingly small population? Most of the Court's surface is a red herring. The vast cityscape is just there for show. Or as a disguise. The true bulk of what the Seed built is underground.

And what it built is memory space, for the storage of robot consciousnesses. The research wing where Robot was held was just a grain of sand on a beach. There's enough space built for the storage of millions, billions, maybe even trillions of individual CPUs-worth of minds. There could even be links to Donlan's Etheric computer, that the Court is one enormous Ether Computer server. And once the job is complete, Robot will have created his Gospel, which judging by his early preaching, will mesh well with the robot populace.

The Administrator bot mentioned that rapid exchange of information (page 212) is common, in that an entire conversation could have been compressed into 1/25th of a second. When Robot has finished the formation of his religion, he'll be plugged into the greater whole of the servers, and will preach it to them there. The first stirrings of a small(?) cult movement has already caused ripples in the Ether. The sudden conversion of what could be trillions of minds...Somebody going to take the fast lane to godhood, and I think that person is Kat.

That sure is some WMG, but it's WMG I approve of.   However, what does that say for the last races of the SB buildings left in the forest?

[Chancellor]

@gksierra

Maybe. My thoughts on the possibility of the SB being Von Neumann in nature is that a dead Tick Tock immediately began growing into even more machinery on the riverbank until it was "uprooted" and destroyed. The Tick Tocks might have been created by the same A.I. as within the Seed, and may carry a copy of the Seed's "code" or maybe are directly controlled by the Seed to be its way of observing the Court's growth.


zimmyhoo
Antimony's encounter with the being claiming to be the Seed, which Coyote claimed did not completely lie, may suggest that the Seed itself is on the Forest side of the ravine, trapped or otherwise cut off from the contemporary Court. We don't know how large the Human holdings were before the rift was made, but if the Court started on the forest side, then we can assume that part of it already existed on the other side of what would eventually become the ravine. If the Seed is indeed an A.I., then it may have produced minor copies of itself to oversee various parts of the building processes; less sophisticated than the real thing. When Coyote suddenly carved up the Earth, the main Seed was separated from the new Court territory.


Without the main A.I. to guide them, the lesser A.I.s continued what they were first ordered: Build. Eventually, they might have understood that it was necessary to reclaim the Seed, but could not because of the Ravine, and more importantly, because of Coyote. To fight a god, they'd need a similar weapon. Perhaps they also somehow realized that robots could have Etheric potential, and thus started the immense effort towards setting the stage for a Court figure to become their candidate for ascension. The main Seed is buried somewhere, unable to do anything without possibly being discovered and destroyed and God help me the speculation just gushes out.

[feraldog]

Jan 24, 2014 19:58:22 GMT zimmyhoo said:

Coyote's a god, but he's not a 'guide to the afterlife'. If anything, he's the creator of the afterlife, in that through belief in him, souls exist which can be guided to the afterlife, but there's only belief because there is some spark of soul already.

He may not be a guide, but there are several legends where he is responsible for death being permanent. I'll summarize a few...

Story One: He and Eagle had a plan to take the spirits of their loved ones back to the land of the living before spring, when ordinarily they came back on their own. To do this he swallowed the moon and Eagle stuck the spirits in the basket and Coyote carried it. The spirits complained until they were let go. Coyote was more than happy to open the basket, which was getting too heavy, thinking they'd come the rest of the way willingly. They didn't, instead they rushed back to the spirit world (and then Coyote made it a law that when you die you stay dead. Spoilsport.)

Story Two: Nobody died, and the world was getting overpopulated. Coyote, Raven, and some others gathered to vote on it. Raven said everyone should die. Coyote said everyone should fall asleep instead of dying, but he was outvoted. Raven's daughter was the first to die, and he tried to reverse the decision, but Coyote said it was already decided on, and death is irreversible.

Both of the above are Pacific Northwest. The third is from the Southwest.

Story Three: Nobody died, and the world was getting overpopulated. Everyone gathered together to vote on it. Everyone except Coyote said people should die, but it should be temporary. He insisted making it temporary wouldn't solve the food problem. So, they built a grass hut and put the first person to die in it and had a ceremony to call his spirit back. When it did (in the form of a whirlwind), Coyote slammed the door so the spirit couldn't come back to life. This made death permanent, and dust devils are wandering spirits.

Fits with his non-etheric skeletal 'true self' pretty well, I think.

Edit: Not that anything in Gunnerkrigg Court is bound to the original mythology. We've already seen the Minotaur legend wasn't as advertised.

[Daedalus]

Jan 26, 2014 9:10:23 GMT feraldog said:

He may not be a guide, but there are several legends where he is responsible for death being permanent. I'll summarize a few...

Here is one I found in a GunnerFic. Obviously not canonical, but you might enjoy:

“Enough,” said Surma. “Jones, why don't you tell one? You must know something appropriate, after, what, four billion years?”

“Surma,” said Anja, meaningfully. But Surma was alight, bridling, her hair a cloud of gold.

“I realize you don't have feelings or imagination, but all you hafta do is recite what you heard! You're good at that, I know you are. Reporting to the headmaster about everything I do or say—!”

“Most of which would not make a very entertaining narrative,” said Jones. She was upright, with her hands folded formally behind her back. It should have been absurd, here in the wilderness where night had properly fallen, with the flames painting her suit with stripes of gold. But: “I too have a story about Coyote,” she went on, her pale mouth unsmiling. “Please be seated, James.” Only then did Anja see that Jimmy had risen to his feet.

“Coyote has been married many times,” Jones said, looking up, as Renard had, at the winking, taunting constellations. “But the first time—before humans had entered the world—was the only time he mourned his wife after her death. He pined whole forests.” (“I didn't think she could pun,” Donald whispered.) “He wept enough to widen several seas. Then Death came to him in the form of a ghost, and said, If you do as I say, and never once deviate from my instructions, I can return your wife to you.”

“Eurydice, Jones?” said Surma: this time it was Renard who shushed her. He had been hanging back, but now he twined around Surma's legs like a cat, his eyes brilliant. Surma knelt to touch his bent slim head.

“Coyote promised, effusively, to obey Death in all things. They went together over the plain, where Death claimed to see a herd of lovely horses, though Coyote saw just the waving grass...”

Anja, listening, let Jones' smooth, low voice roll over her, and stared through the distorted air above the fire at her friends. Not a good evening: but Surma, drunk, furious, and perhaps now for the first time succumbing to shame, nevertheless had a gentle look as she scratched the base of Renard's ears. She did love him, Anja thought: like a girl loves a dog. It was a pity. It would have been easier, maybe, if Surma had never cared at all.

She moved on. James was bewildered, she thought, always aware of Surma's distaste for his teacher but always, beneath that, certain that she could be won over, to see Jones as he saw her—however he saw her: that, Anja didn't pretend to understand. He had his fingers laced in his lap, and was staring fixedly into the cracks of light between; his face in shadow seemed older, more severe, and etched with disbelief. Anthony, next to him, had pivoted to sit with his face away from the fire and the center of the circle; Donny looked at him from time to time with obvious concern. Donny was tired, she knew, barely upright. Of all of them the forest taxed him most.

Anja experienced a brief, fierce impulse towards protection. She wanted to draw chalk circles over the roots of the trees; she wanted to know that she would go to sleep that night with Surma's hand in hers, and Donny's in the other, and magic of her own making to defend her from the stars. It was a pure and stupid thought, not at all suited to the nature of the expedition—they had brought sleeping bags, tarps, even a kettle: not crystals or rowan wands. But for a moment, it was a relief to imagine she was a word away from saving them. With the embers like red eyes in the logs, and dark boughs shedding needles from above.

“...For five nights, Death had said, you must not touch her. As you journey back to the living world.

“It was easy enough, the first three nights. She had been like a shadow, and then like the wind throwing up dust, and then like a poignant memory. But on the fourth night, with just one morning between them and the day when she would be a whole woman again, she was already so close that Coyote thought he could taste the sweetness of her breath. He looked and looked, and grew new eyes to look with; and then—just as they were preparing to rest, and speak no more until the morning dawned—he leapt on her. He could restrain himself no longer. She was too beautiful, too like a person: and in his arms she turned to ash again.”

Surma, Anja thought, helplessly. Her eyes were tearing up from smoke; but she thought she saw Surma pale, and let go of Renard's head.

“Then Death was enraged, and said to Coyote, you have done worse than you know; you were meant to blaze a trail for men, so that death would only be a passing thing, curable by courage and restraint; and because of you, death will be eternal. Nothing retrieved, nothing salvaged: no hope except in following your loved one to the pyre. Which Coyote would not do.”

Jones stopped, and bowed to Surma, a strange stark gesture. She must know, Anja decided. Surma's mother—

“If that's all?” said Tony: and threw a bucket of water on the flames. There was a flash of gold where the liquid sheeted down, and a thick cloud of smoke. Then darkness—darkness, flooding them, like a dead god's quick laughter.

(source: archiveofourown.org/works/1093952)

[Daedalus]

Wow. I come back, and after two days of absence, actual new ideas on topic appear! I am impressed!!

And, my response to the great speculation here:

Jan 25, 2014 21:49:20 GMT Chancellor said:

Human Belief shapes the Ether, so maybe robots are advancing towards a state (say, Kat's leads on the more organic basis) wherein they'll have the same ability. But not the ability to alter Etheric stuff, there's link to the Ether in robots, so what if there's an entirely new emergent power that only robots can access, and Etherics are equally blind to? Same way Human beliefs can cause things to happen to the Ether, if robots advance enough, they might achieve their own influence over another energy.

Maybe not, but all seems to suggest the Court robots' beliefs are effecting noticeable changes, even in the Ether.

Now time for some wild ass guessing:

The Seed Bismuth was an Artificially Intelligent Von Neumann machine, set to grow and construct the Court without a proper workforce. But why is it so enormous, for such a seemingly small population? Most of the Court's surface is a red herring. The vast cityscape is just there for show. Or as a disguise. The true bulk of what the Seed built is underground.

And what it built is memory space, for the storage of robot consciousnesses. The research wing where Robot was held was just a grain of sand on a beach. There's enough space built for the storage of millions, billions, maybe even trillions of individual CPUs-worth of minds. There could even be links to Donlan's Etheric computer, that the Court is one enormous Ether Computer server. And once the job is complete, Robot will have created his Gospel, which judging by his early preaching, will mesh well with the robot populace.

The Administrator bot mentioned that rapid exchange of information (page 212) is common, in that an entire conversation could have been compressed into 1/25th of a second. When Robot has finished the formation of his religion, he'll be plugged into the greater whole of the servers, and will preach it to them there. The first stirrings of a small(?) cult movement has already caused ripples in the Ether. The sudden conversion of what could be trillions of minds...Somebody going to take the fast lane to godhood, and I think that person is Kat.

I really like the idea of there being a Court beyond what we have seen - that would seem very in line with what we have seen previously.

Plus, it would explain why there can be so much happening unobserved in a place with such technological innovation (something that has always bothered me). The Court has the same problem as the NSA - too much data, too little time.

How does this all relate to Diego, though? There were presumably no robots before he came along, so we have a bit of a chronology problem...unless he built that function into the Seed Bismuth in secret, and with intent for something like this to occur. Also, it would be another reason the true nature of the Seed have been lost (as Jones has remarked upon): it was never known to anyone but Diego, its (partial) designer. And perhaps Coyote, who might just allow it to happen for shits and giggles, regardless of consequences.

However, it seems unnecessary for there to be a separate 'robo-ether'. The trend has so far seemed to be that robots are getting more human, and thus seem like they will eventually impact the ether like other biological beings. But who knows

Jan 26, 2014 2:32:20 GMT Chancellor said:

@gksierra

Maybe. My thoughts on the possibility of the SB being Von Neumann in nature is that a dead Tick Tock immediately began growing into even more machinery on the riverbank until it was "uprooted" and destroyed. The Tick Tocks might have been created by the same A.I. as within the Seed, and may carry a copy of the Seed's "code" or maybe are directly controlled by the Seed to be its way of observing the Court's growth.


zimmyhoo
Antimony's encounter with the being claiming to be the Seed, which Coyote claimed did not completely lie, may suggest that the Seed itself is on the Forest side of the ravine, trapped or otherwise cut off from the contemporary Court. We don't know how large the Human holdings were before the rift was made, but if the Court started on the forest side, then we can assume that part of it already existed on the other side of what would eventually become the ravine. If the Seed is indeed an A.I., then it may have produced minor copies of itself to oversee various parts of the building processes; less sophisticated than the real thing. When Coyote suddenly carved up the Earth, the main Seed was separated from the new Court territory.


Without the main A.I. to guide them, the lesser A.I.s continued what they were first ordered: Build. Eventually, they might have understood that it was necessary to reclaim the Seed, but could not because of the Ravine, and more importantly, because of Coyote. To fight a god, they'd need a similar weapon. Perhaps they also somehow realized that robots could have Etheric potential, and thus started the immense effort towards setting the stage for a Court figure to become their candidate for ascension. The main Seed is buried somewhere, unable to do anything without possibly being discovered and destroyed and God help me the speculation just gushes out.

I liked how neat the entire Seed Bismuth's explanation was - a mindless growth, cut off from the controlling intelligence).

...Until it was revealed that it was in fact not the SB (Tom, you troll!).

I also loved how Coyote's response left the maximum possible space for interpretation - some of it is true, but the amount is left up to us.

If this is all related to Kat being a weapon pointed at Coyote (cool idea), though, let us explore the reasons he would not have acted yet.
1) Coyote is unaware.
2) Coyote has run out of shits to give.
3) Coyote thinks it is no threat.
4) Coyote thinks it will be funny whether it harms him or not.

I vote some combination of 3 and 4. Discuss.

[GK Sierra]

Jan 27, 2014 3:36:57 GMT Daedalus said:

Here is one I found in a GunnerFic. Obviously not canonical, but you might enjoy:

My inner beta reader is screaming at me to mark off large sections of that text in red.

[Daedalus]

Jan 27, 2014 3:54:59 GMT GK Sierra said:

Jan 27, 2014 3:36:57 GMT Daedalus said:

Here is one I found in a GunnerFic. Obviously not canonical, but you might enjoy:

My inner beta reader is screaming at me to mark off large sections of that text in red.

Well, I still liked it (pout).

Also, which text? Mine, or the fanfic's?

[Chancellor]

Daedalus
Yes, my thoughts were that the Seed was the very first place that he implemented the esoteric code that the designed for the first iteration robots to use. Maybe it was something even above those; just as the present Court robos are an (arguable) degradation and simplification of the first, Diego's original robots may have been a condensation and simplification of something even more powerful. Nothing like a modern A.I. or Court CPU, requiring no regular power source, or other visible mechanisms of function. This would allow something as innocuous as a "Seed" to have such potential. I agree that he may have never told Sir Young the true nature of the Seed or how he created it, especially after he withdrew into denial and blamed them for Jeanne's death. The Wisp stated that the Seed was created using the technology of man, almost certainly Diego's, and the magic of the Forest. So this is the question: was that part of the Lie, or did Diego actually utilize the help of some forest entity to create the seed? This would be all the more reason to keep the true nature of the SB secret from the rest of the Court after the divide.

However...I am not so sure about the Tick Tocks. If they -truly- predate the Court, then you might argue they predate the Seed, which throws that whole part into the bin. Still, that could simply mean that the Seed built them before the Court proper, to be its "eyes."

[Daedalus]

Jan 27, 2014 4:25:35 GMT Chancellor said:

Daedalus
Yes, my thoughts were that the Seed was the very first place that he implemented the esoteric code that the designed for the first iteration robots to use. Maybe it was something even above those; just as the present Court robos are an (arguable) degradation and simplification of the first, Diego's original robots may have been a condensation and simplification of something even more powerful. Nothing like a modern A.I. or Court CPU, requiring no regular power source, or other visible mechanisms of function. This would allow something as innocuous as a "Seed" to have such potential. I agree that he may have never told Sir Young the true nature of the Seed or how he created it, especially after he withdrew into denial and blamed them for Jeanne's death. The Wisp stated that the Seed was created using the technology of man, almost certainly Diego's, and the magic of the Forest. So this is the question: was that part of the Lie, or did Diego actually utilize the help of some forest entity to create the seed? This would be all the more reason to keep the true nature of the SB secret from the rest of the Court after the divide.

However...I am not so sure about the Tick Tocks. If they -truly- predate the Court, then you might argue they predate the Seed, which throws that whole part into the bin. Still, that could simply mean that the Seed built them before the Court proper, to be its "eyes."

Two things...

First, I would say that the designs of the modern robots are more elegant than the ones that came before. I will say that, as an engineer, elegance is much harder to do than than an intricate but wasteful design. The old robot remarked on that as well. The idea of a hierarchy of being, similar to many religions, though - intriguing.

Second, the tic-tocs are indeed a mystery. I have heard many things suggested, some involving time travel, but never that the Court (or Seed) generated them. This would make the Seed the divine being that the Robots see as having made them, interestingly. On the other hand, it's possible that the robots were just wrong about their history. After all, they are 'mythical ornithopers'. There's also the question of why they are the 'thousand eyes' and why Zimmy hates them so.

Such speculation, much theory. Wow. (Such doge!)

[Chancellor]

As it said, whether the modern robot is a step down is a matter of debate, one we don't have quite as much information on as I'd like. Perhaps a mutation is a better word than regression. Each step was just adaptation to the present situation.

If my Von Neumann Seed theory were true, and that it was largely non-intelligent copies of the prime consciousness that built the main body of the Court, then it may be conceivable that at some point the Court-side A.I.s tried to communicate with the robots, but were either too different or simply not sophisticated enough to do so. Maybe they had enough luck to get across some very vague concepts, maybe even subliminally, into the robots about their nature, and that this is where the current notions of the mechabirdies nature came from. Really at this point all I can do is very wild guesses.

[Daedalus]

Jan 27, 2014 4:45:03 GMT Chancellor said:

As it said, whether the modern robot is a step down is a matter of debate, one we don't have quite as much information on as I'd like. Perhaps a mutation is a better word than regression. Each step was just adaptation to the present situation.

If my Von Neumann Seed theory were true, and that it was largely non-intelligent copies of the prime consciousness that built the main body of the Court, then it may be conceivable that at some point the Court-side A.I.s tried to communicate with the robots, but were either too different or simply not sophisticated enough to do so. Maybe they had enough luck to get across some very vague concepts, maybe even subliminally, into the robots about their nature, and that this is where the current notions of the mechabirdies nature came from. Really at this point all I can do is very wild guesses.

It's all any of us can do this is nothing more than unusually on-topic WildSpec. How I hope for us all to be true, though. That would be awesome.

[Chancellor]

My Wildest Speculation of All:

SPOILER: Click to show

It's all one of Dr. Disaster's simulations.

In all seriousness again, you mentioned the redundancy of a Robo-Ether. Agreed, maybe, but such a thing, as with the Ether, would be incidental. It's the Human spark of imagination and intellect that is the real power. And it seems that those robots are slowly but surely evolving to have that very same spark as well.

[GK Sierra]

Or perhaps they inherited the spark of their maker- minds building similar minds.

From the wiki:

"The Seed Bismuth was created by magic of the forest animals, technology of the humans, and the nature of the forest. It was then planted into the ground in order to make a place both humans and etheric beings could live, but the humans somehow made Seed Bismuth grow even faster, and so it started overtaking the forest. This resulted in fighting between the two factions. In order to stop this fighting, Coyote created the divide between the forest and the Court, leaving the seed and some of the buildings on the forests side."

I guess the big question is, what did the Court do to the Seed Bismuth that made it produce the current, massively industrialized sprawl. Or was it the humans that altered it afterwards? Do they believe that it is the key to godhood? If so, that is more than enough reason to betray Jeanne in the worst possible way in order to provide security for their little god project.

[Chancellor]

Mh, but Coyote made it clear that some of what the Wisp was saying was falsehood. The question is which parts are true, and what are false.