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Post by keef on Dec 29, 2013 16:33:03 GMT
How many robots can dance on the head of a pin? I love theology, especially if I don't have to believe anything.  Most of us seem to think that "We do not deal in electrical appliances. " means robots have no soul, or etheric essence or whatever you want to call it. But: 1- Tictocs are not court robots. 2- It might just mean "there is no psychopomp for robots (yet). 3- Insects do have a soul? Premise: I believe that given the facts that we possess, it would be plausible for Kat to become a god Yes but the Coyote we know was never a flesh and blood coyote, nor were Muut, Renard or Basil ever real creatures. They are ideas given substance by storytelling, believe and the souls of the believers, not animals suddenly turned in to Gods. So there could be a goddess Kat, (or psychopomp Kat) who is real like Coyote, and who is a separate entity from Kat the girl. (well that's what I hope) And oddly possible: she will have always existed, if that is what her believers want. You know what I wonder? Robot was deactivated and hidden by the other robots because they thought he was weird. Chances are he preached some gospel even before Kat came along. I'd like to know what he said that freaked the other robots out. That may help us understand if he's a real prophet or a charlatan who knows to manipulate the (robot) masses. There's also the comment Rey made about how many renegade robot chips there were way back when. Could those have been his prior followers, or the robots following his teachings when he was first activated? S13 preaches to, and is followed by a lot of robots, but you can conclude from what the seraph says there was already before S13 a prophecy about a beautiful angel who would bring about change for the robots. Robot's idea that this is Kat is now sanctioned by the "authorities", and of course for us, the readers, confirmed by Zimmy. The questions we just don't have enough information on remain: Can robots relate to the ether at all? Does something change when robots "really" die? Does there need to be some kind of sacrifice? (Kat or S13?) Will Boxbot be the first heretic? How many robot-angels can dance on the head of a pin? |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 29, 2013 17:07:26 GMT
Most of us seem to think that "We do not deal in electrical appliances. " means robots have no soul, or etheric essence or whatever you want to call it. But: 1- Tictocs are not court robots. 2- It might just mean "there is no psychopomp for robots (yet). 3- Insects do have a soul? 1: Good point 2: Tom has confirmed that robots (at the time of asking) have no souls (in the Word of Tom) 3: Ikr? Life is unfair for robots. But, on the other hand, insects can die a true death, as S13 would say. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on Dec 29, 2013 17:38:53 GMT
I wonder if the glass-eyed men have a psychopomp, being also unnaturally conceived of sorts. Yes, Muut |
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Post by sidhekin on Dec 29, 2013 18:00:21 GMT
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Post by reiver on Dec 30, 2013 0:00:13 GMT
Ha. Ahahahaha. (Hi guys, newish here!) So: Coyote claims he isn't real, but for the belief of man. And, perhaps, the death of man.Perhaps it takes both belief and life (death) to forge a link with the aether. If so, the robots may be fostering belief, but without death, there's no 'fuel' for the fire to forge reality. Until now. Oh, and belief, once forged, can be retroactive (Jones being the archetypical example.) So they don't have access to the Ether yet. But they just might, through Kat's work, and when they do, belief will forge reality once more. No wonder Zimmy is scared of her.  |
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Post by zimmyhoo on Dec 30, 2013 0:42:57 GMT
Ha. Ahahahaha. (Hi guys, newish here!) So: Coyote claims he isn't real, but for the belief of man. And, perhaps, the death of man.Perhaps it takes both belief and life (death) to forge a link with the aether. If so, the robots may be fostering belief, but without death, there's no 'fuel' for the fire to forge reality. Until now. Oh, and belief, once forged, can be retroactive (Jones being the archetypical example.) So they don't have access to the Ether yet. But they just might, through Kat's work, and when they do, belief will forge reality once more. No wonder Zimmy is scared of her. What if Kat has to die for Godess to emerge? |
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Post by keef on Dec 30, 2013 1:04:05 GMT
Most of us seem to think that "We do not deal in electrical appliances. " means robots have no soul, or etheric essence or whatever you want to call it. But: 1- Tictocs are not court robots. 2- It might just mean "there is no psychopomp for robots (yet). 3- Insects do have a soul? 1: Good point 2: Tom has confirmed that robots (at the time of asking) have no souls (in the Word of Tom) Why does the creator always needs the last word, what does he know! but yes I forgot to check Word of Tom. Point is; yeah insects can die true deaths, I see them doing it all the time, they really have talent, but don't see them worship or pray a lot. The main thing they belief is probably: "Oh shit, I'm going to be eaten!" Maybe that counts as religion. Or maybe the whole religion part is not as important as we thought. I know Pratchett has religious ants, building pyramids of sugarcubes or something, but cant remember which book.
From the doglike god that moments before said he did not exist? Might be a metaphor. This beauty looks like the totem coyote, not the somewhat sad and grey animal. So what would a chickcharney be without belief, a very silly owl? Coyote does not lie, he tells stories, somewhere in them is the truth. Coyote is trickery. I am very fond of him, but he is a crook. The word "never" might apply, as in never trust him. And yet most of our theories are build on his words. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 30, 2013 18:21:46 GMT
...we just don't have enough information... This, to be fair, was originally filed under WildSpec, but I moved it to a separate thread because it is my pet theory and no one seriously discusses posts within the WildSpec thread. Also, nice new avatar! |
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Post by keef on Dec 30, 2013 21:43:12 GMT
...we just don't have enough information... This, to be fair, was originally filed under WildSpec, but I moved it to a separate thread because it is my pet theory and no one seriously discusses posts within the WildSpec thread. Also, nice new avatar! This is one of the better speculations, and it is obvious Tom pointed us in this direction. For the moment I think we chewed through all the info we have, next chapter will be about .. something completely different? There still might be big surprises, as most direct information about gods in the Gunnerverse comes from Coyote. Zimmy, Paz, Jeanne or Jones could play a role as catalyst, but we can not know that. I thought about opening a thread to speculate about some of my favourite mysteries, but they do not have the same scope as this one. I am for instance convinced of Anthony's good intentions, and I think it possible Annie will at some point have a choice her mother had not.. But no real information to go on, who knows, next chapter. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jan 1, 2014 10:32:09 GMT
I was under the impression from what Muut said that Jeanne crossing the river had more to do with Annie being there than with the Tic Toc. Also, I'm pretty sure that the device Steadman used to shoot Jeanne's green paramour is what is binding her ghost to this world. There was never anything preventing Jeanne's ghost from crossing the Annan Waters. Jeanne was what prevented everything else from crossing the Annan. Muut was working from incomplete information: he knew that something was preventing etheric beings from crossing the Annan, but he had no idea what. So he incorrectly assumed that Jeanne was similarly limited. |
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Post by reiver on Jan 1, 2014 11:22:30 GMT
Ha. Ahahahaha. (Hi guys, newish here!) So: Coyote claims he isn't real, but for the belief of man. And, perhaps, the death of man.Perhaps it takes both belief and life (death) to forge a link with the aether. If so, the robots may be fostering belief, but without death, there's no 'fuel' for the fire to forge reality. Until now. Oh, and belief, once forged, can be retroactive (Jones being the archetypical example.) So they don't have access to the Ether yet. But they just might, through Kat's work, and when they do, belief will forge reality once more. No wonder Zimmy is scared of her. What if Kat has to die for Godess to emerge? Dm... Probably not. But it does need robots the believers in question, to die for it to work. Which, apparenty, Kat has now enabled. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 1, 2014 19:32:17 GMT
I was under the impression from what Muut said that Jeanne crossing the river had more to do with Annie being there than with the Tic Toc. Also, I'm pretty sure that the device Steadman used to shoot Jeanne's green paramour is what is binding her ghost to this world. There was never anything preventing Jeanne's ghost from crossing the Annan Waters. Jeanne was what prevented everything else from crossing the Annan. Muut was working from incomplete information: he knew that something was preventing etheric beings from crossing the Annan, but he had no idea what. So he incorrectly assumed that Jeanne was similarly limited. This doesn't change the fact that for some reason Annie's presence precipitated Jeanne, who has never before crossed the waters, crossing the waters and giving Annie her etheric scar. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jan 1, 2014 19:40:09 GMT
It is interesting that Annie and company had the wherewithal to find out about Jeanne, and Muut didn't even know her name or what exactly she was.
I guess he was busy.
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 1, 2014 19:43:22 GMT
It is interesting that Annie and company had the wherewithal to find out about Jeanne, and Muut didn't even know her name or what exactly she was. I guess he was busy. There is often the whole theme that immortals need mortals to act as their tools to do the jobs that they themselves cannot. Or perhaps Mu'ut was just too busy with psychopomping to find out himself. But why is dealing with Jeanne so important that Mu'ut cares about it? |
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Post by warrl on Jan 1, 2014 20:08:36 GMT
This doesn't change the fact that for some reason Annie's presence precipitated Jeanne, who has never before crossed the waters, crossing the waters and giving Annie her etheric scar. We don't know that she never crossed the waters before. Only that nobody present there was aware of her having crossed the waters before. And perhaps she would have had the same reaction to seeing *anyone* from the Court on the Forest side... or perhaps it would have been further restricted to people from the Court with a significant etheric presence. While poking Annie in the face with her sword was not a friendly gesture, it also wasn't a "RAAH! DIE!" move. I'd rate it as more exploratory. Like she wasn't sure what Annie was. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 1, 2014 20:12:32 GMT
This doesn't change the fact that for some reason Annie's presence precipitated Jeanne, who has never before crossed the waters, crossing the waters and giving Annie her etheric scar. We don't know that she never crossed the waters before. Only that nobody present there was aware of her having crossed the waters before. And perhaps she would have had the same reaction to seeing *anyone* from the Court on the Forest side... or perhaps it would have been further restricted to people from the Court with a significant etheric presence. While poking Annie in the face with her sword was not a friendly gesture, it also wasn't a "RAAH! DIE!" move. I'd rate it as more exploratory. Like she wasn't sure what Annie was. She does seem to be seriously going after Parley, though. But that is after she goes into rage mode. |
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Post by keef on Jan 1, 2014 20:36:41 GMT
This doesn't change the fact that for some reason Annie's presence precipitated Jeanne, who has never before crossed the waters, crossing the waters and giving Annie her etheric scar. We don't know that she never crossed the waters before. Only that nobody present there was aware of her having crossed the waters before. Well Muut should be somewhat knowledgeable about dead people. Another puzzle. Agreed. I thought she wanted to make sure Annie would remember her. She does seem to be seriously going after Parley, though. But that is after she goes into rage mode. |
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Post by Per on Jan 1, 2014 20:36:50 GMT
Hmm... I always interpreted the anime motion lines in the last Jeanne panel in the canyon to mean she was lunging forward just as Kat's light appeared. It's not clear though.
It's kind of interesting that if Jeanne was rarghing, apparently Kat's appearance still prevented her from going through with it. It's not clear why that would be. I guess Tom wouldn't have every rule concerning Jeanne set in stone by that point, e.g. he might have known exactly the significance of crossing the river, but written the light-ghost-drive-off-ness just because of dramatic appropriateness. (Because I doubt they can use that later as a surefire plan B.)
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 1, 2014 20:50:17 GMT
The biggest uncertainty around Jeanne is also the oldest, though: why Mu'ut thought her constrained to one side of the river, yet she was not. Mu'ut was wrong, but that seems very strange. He would be the person most likely to know. Leaving it entirely unresolved is unlike Tom, and it is high time it gets brought up again, if this upcoming chapter connects to that.
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fishtie
Full Member
...I've learned to be amazed first and ask questions later.
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Post by fishtie on Jan 1, 2014 21:58:12 GMT
I think the reason Mut is wrong is that it's not his job to know.
Mut probably knows about the souls that he is to take onto the next existence (whatever). Jeanne is not one of those souls (due to magic etheric science binding arrow). Thus, it's out of his area of expertise.
*extra wild theory: Jeanne is still effected by gravity, but she doesn't have a physical form to provide stability so Kat's anti-gravity drive messed her up.*
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Post by keef on Jan 1, 2014 23:19:43 GMT
I scanned the thread, and don't think it is mentioned: What if machine god Kat is not only an image in Zimmy's mind, but actually it is Zimmy who makes it all happen. In the topic starter's words: Zimmy is a reality-bender . So what happens if Zimmy is left alone with Kat for a while?
I wish I could bend reality to not having to work in the morning, first day of 2014 is done for this timezone. Did not completely suck, so who knows it's gonna be a great year..
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Post by zimmyhoo on Jan 2, 2014 3:36:56 GMT
I scanned the thread, and don't think it is mentioned: What if machine god Kat is not only an image in Zimmy's mind, but actually it is Zimmy who makes it all happen. In the topic starter's words: Zimmy is a reality-bender . So what happens if Zimmy is left alone with Kat for a while?
I wish I could bend reality to not having to work in the morning, first day of 2014 is done for this timezone. Did not completely suck, so who knows it's gonna be a great year..
Zimmy is a HUGE unknown. Not only because we don't know the extent of her powers and motivations, but IMO most importantly, because we have no clue how plot important she is. We've got a pretty good sense of scale with Jeanne - a first disk boss - and less so with Yenny and Rey - probably important supporting characters, but not main earthshakers in the present time - but I've no clue if Zimmy is just a semi-plot relevant character, more Chekovy than not; up there with the main babes; or vastly important to the Gunnerverse and therefore the plot, even if the story does not focus on her. It's frightening to me as a theorist. |
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Kuraru
Junior Member
The mind is just a plaything of the body, is it not?
Posts: 75
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Post by Kuraru on Jan 2, 2014 18:18:03 GMT
Ha. Ahahahaha. (Hi guys, newish here!) So: Coyote claims he isn't real, but for the belief of man. And, perhaps, the death of man.Perhaps it takes both belief and life (death) to forge a link with the aether. If so, the robots may be fostering belief, but without death, there's no 'fuel' for the fire to forge reality. Until now. Oh, and belief, once forged, can be retroactive (Jones being the archetypical example.) So they don't have access to the Ether yet. But they just might, through Kat's work, and when they do, belief will forge reality once more. No wonder Zimmy is scared of her. I was just about to suggest exactly this; for a being to have an etheric connection - a soul - it must have the capacity to die. Currently the court robots are incapable of dying a "proper" death. They may be physically destroyed or turned off (a state more similar to death than sleeping), but these do not constitute "proper" death. Given this it's possible that the current robots' belief in "the Angel" is not sufficient to create her, but the future belief in the Angel by the biomechanical robots Kat will make is/will be sufficient. It may be the case that for a person's soul to affect the etherium they must die first - so the creation of the Angel will only be final upon the death of Kat's biomechanical robots. So, if I'm right about that, Robot may spread his belief in the Angel to the new, ether-enabled robots, and then kill them en masse (or possibly have them kill themselves, in some sort of mass suicide). |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 2, 2014 20:03:46 GMT
Robot may spread his belief in the Angel to the new, ether-enabled robots, and then kill them en masse (or possibly have them kill themselves, in some sort of mass suicide).Well, that escalated quickly |
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Post by reiver on Jan 4, 2014 9:46:51 GMT
Or they die en masse. Perhaps in defence of her?
Afterall, dying for your beliefs must make pretty potent fuel, eh?
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Post by GK Sierra on Jan 4, 2014 16:18:54 GMT
Or the Court and the Forest decide it's time to settle the beef once and for all, and the Headmaster is all- "Yeaaaaah, I'm gonna need you guys to come in on Saturday, pick up these guns and go shoot green people n' shadows until you're scrap, mkay?" Then Robot could either fall in line, or rebel openly against the Court. Either way, Kat's gets the body-count she needs for godhood.
>Headmaster deposed, power vacuum
>Coyote assumes control of the Court
>Turns out he's even worse than the previous owners
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Kuraru
Junior Member
The mind is just a plaything of the body, is it not?
Posts: 75
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Post by Kuraru on Jan 4, 2014 18:58:03 GMT
Or they die en masse. Perhaps in defence of her? Afterall, dying for your beliefs must make pretty potent fuel, eh? That works too, and might make a bit more sense - I just thought that Robot having them kill themselves in a mass suicide would be a good climax to the "Robot is super creepy religious" arc.  |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 4, 2014 19:10:47 GMT
I scanned the thread, and don't think it is mentioned: What if machine god Kat is not only an image in Zimmy's mind, but actually it is Zimmy who makes it all happen. In the topic starter's words: In her words: when it gets bad things start to change. like for real.. So what happens if Zimmy is left alone with Kat for a while?
I wish I could bend reality to not having to work in the morning, first day of 2014 is done for this timezone. Did not completely suck, so who knows it's gonna be a great year..
Zimmy is a HUGE unknown. Not only because we don't know the extent of her powers and motivations, but IMO most importantly, because we have no clue how plot important she is. We've got a pretty good sense of scale with Jeanne - a first disk boss - and less so with Yenny and Rey - probably important supporting characters, but not main earthshakers in the present time - but I've no clue if Zimmy is just a semi-plot relevant character, more Chekovy than not; up there with the main babes; or vastly important to the Gunnerverse and therefore the plot, even if the story does not focus on her. It's frightening to me as a theorist. I like to believe that Zimmy will have a larger part to play in the coming story lines. She's had some key moments already: the tranformation of Jack (Who I also suspect has a larger part to play in the future) via his accidental trip into Zimmyham, pulling Annie out of the fugue state her father sent her into, and her unspecified science experiment from early one. To the best of our knowledge her powers are unique and she has a sort of uneasy relationship with our girls. |
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Post by Intelligence on Jan 5, 2014 4:00:47 GMT
>Headmaster deposed, power vacuum
>Coyote assumes control of the Court
>Turns out he's even worse than the previous owners
If that means he becomes like Wheatley, it wouldn't be too bad, and at least he would be fun. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jan 6, 2014 3:49:06 GMT
She's had some key moments already: [...] her unspecified science experiment from early one. If you're suggesting that we might someday find out what exactly was in that science experiment, I sorta doubt it. That struck me as one of those jokes where the entire point is that we don't directly see the <X>, so the reader is forced to imagine the most over-the-top <X> they can imagine. Like Ketrak's appearance. Totally agreed with the rest of your post. |
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You know what I wonder? Robot was deactivated and hidden by the other robots because they thought he was weird. Chances are he preached some gospel even before Kat came along. I'd like to know what he said that freaked the other robots out.
