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Post by philman on Nov 21, 2013 8:50:02 GMT
Court side Queen would be Jones, surely? Forest side, hmm. We don't really know enough forest characters yet...
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Post by Gotolei on Nov 21, 2013 9:16:24 GMT
Khepi seems to have a pretty strong influence in AitF, maybe she'd work as a queen? Though she is head of just that family, and it looks like there's quite a few.. she's kinda loud anyway  |
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fishtie
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Post by fishtie on Nov 21, 2013 10:13:02 GMT
Well classic chess symbolism has the queen representative of a side's ultimate force. A truly unique asset that cant be replaced*. It is the one thing you never go to battle without**, it is also something of a last resort***. The queen is the one piece who's loss by one side is almost universally considered a near game ender for that side. It's why a queen sacrifice to checkmate is basely the ultimate 'don't you look silly' tactic.
Jones is allegedly neutral in court/forest maters so I don't think she can really be chosen for any position, much less such a vital one. Maybe she can be the clock?
I haven't read AitF, but Khepi is essentially a matron right? They are almost always symbolic of home and hearth, which is usually associated with rooks. Then again... <shrug>
*yes, despite the fact that you can promote to queen
**lest you be victim to the enemies queen
***that's why early queen attacks are considered risky, rare, high mutual loss maneuvers.
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 21, 2013 14:10:31 GMT
We are indeed getting carried away, but I still love it  and who knows: certain portions of this discussion (the less far-fetched portions) may end up at least partially true. Well, there'll always be some truth, as long as we Did you draw that yourself.  |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 21, 2013 17:10:34 GMT
Chess pieces... That's fun to contemplate. I wonder who king and queen would be? Court: Headmaster and Kat, maybe? Forest: Coyote and Annie, perhaps. And the process of going off-topic has begun... Well, court vs forest would be the obvious answer... But there are potential neutrals in this. Like Annie. |
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Post by Gotolei on Nov 21, 2013 18:55:54 GMT
Ah, I wasn't aware of the chess symbolism stuff. I guess she's not quite that important. Well, there'll always be some truth, as long as we Did you draw that yourself. just yet another meme |
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 21, 2013 19:52:59 GMT
I do like this theory. I think I've posted the following somewhere else before - maybe wildspec? - but this is an appropriate place. I think that Kat's ascendancy and gaining etheric presence is only half right. Personally, I think there's more than one ether. Kat seems to have some sort of ability, distinct from Annie's. The meditation exercise on the rooftop demonstrates this, IMO. Yet, to our knowledge, Annie has never seen anything unusual about Kat. I think if she did, we would have been told...again, up on the rooftop. And Kat, to our knowledge, has no ability that Annie can recognize. I propose that there is the natural ether (coyote, rey, annie, etc.), and there is the technological ether (  , tic-tocs, kat, ...). This second ether is perhaps the product of the experimentations at the ether stations. There is one being that we know of who straddles both: Zimmy. And she can't handle it, which is why her visions are so terrifying. But she's the only person that we know of who has seen both Annie's etheric self and Kat's 'etheric' self. I suspect that some of the robots, including Robot, are already sensitive to this 'new ether.' Robot may be the first, which is why he is/was considered a heretic, and yet is so certain that Kat is the Angel. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 22, 2013 0:25:51 GMT
I do like this theory. I think I've posted the following somewhere else before - maybe wildspec? - but this is an appropriate place. I think that Kat's ascendancy and gaining etheric presence is only half right. Personally, I think there's more than one ether. Kat seems to have some sort of ability, distinct from Annie's. The meditation exercise on the rooftop demonstrates this, IMO. Yet, to our knowledge, Annie has never seen anything unusual about Kat. I think if she did, we would have been told...again, up on the rooftop. And Kat, to our knowledge, has no ability that Annie can recognize. I propose that there is the natural ether (coyote, rey, annie, etc.), and there is the technological ether ( , tic-tocs, kat, ...). This second ether is perhaps the product of the experimentations at the ether stations. There is one being that we know of who straddles both: Zimmy. And she can't handle it, which is why her visions are so terrifying. But she's the only person that we know of who has seen both Annie's etheric self and Kat's 'etheric' self. I suspect that some of the robots, including Robot, are already sensitive to this 'new ether.' Robot may be the first, which is why he is/was considered a heretic, and yet is so certain that Kat is the Angel. Very interesting, and good point with Zimmy. It's also possible, with a slight change, that there are two sides of the same ether and they just don't generally interact with or see each other. No need to add a whole new ether  |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 22, 2013 0:40:40 GMT
Well classic chess symbolism has the queen representative of a side's ultimate force. A truly unique asset that cant be replaced*. It is the one thing you never go to battle without**, it is also something of a last resort***. The queen is the one piece who's loss by one side is almost universally considered a near game ender for that side. It's why a queen sacrifice to checkmate is basely the ultimate 'don't you look silly' tactic. Annie nearly fits the symbolic meaning you give here, btw: -she is powerful, though not the ultimate force (you have to be, to be accepted as a medium: it's essentially a battle for who's the 'alpha' of the forest, as we saw last chapter) -also, she is irreplaceable in the short term (beyond being the protagonist of the story, Coyote takes a special interest in her, which carries a lot of meaning in the forest). On the other hand, seeing her actively fight against the Court would be very sad, so maybe not the best choice. Not yet, at least. |
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Post by nightwind on Nov 22, 2013 0:49:25 GMT
Since technology isn't that old, wouldn't that make it a 'new ether' even if it is just part of the other one?
Really interesting theory.
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fishtie
Full Member
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Post by fishtie on Nov 22, 2013 4:55:48 GMT
Well classic chess symbolism has the queen representative of a side's ultimate force. A truly unique asset that cant be replaced*. It is the one thing you never go to battle without**, it is also something of a last resort***. The queen is the one piece who's loss by one side is almost universally considered a near game ender for that side. It's why a queen sacrifice to checkmate is basely the ultimate 'don't you look silly' tactic. Annie nearly fits the symbolic meaning you give here, btw: -she is powerful, though not the ultimate force (you have to be, to be accepted as a medium: it's essentially a battle for who's the 'alpha' of the forest, as we saw last chapter) -also, she is irreplaceable in the short term (beyond being the protagonist of the story, Coyote takes a special interest in her, which carries a lot of meaning in the forest). On the other hand, seeing her actively fight against the Court would be very sad, so maybe not the best choice. Not yet, at least. I still don't see Annie as integrated to the forest quite that much either. Then again, I still can't see characters like Annie and Kat as more then children still (which they are). I get the feeling they have the potential to be queens one day; but not yet... not yet. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 22, 2013 8:38:38 GMT
I do like this theory. I think I've posted the following somewhere else before - maybe wildspec? - but this is an appropriate place. I think that Kat's ascendancy and gaining etheric presence is only half right. Personally, I think there's more than one ether. Kat seems to have some sort of ability, distinct from Annie's. The meditation exercise on the rooftop demonstrates this, IMO. Yet, to our knowledge, Annie has never seen anything unusual about Kat. I think if she did, we would have been told...again, up on the rooftop. And Kat, to our knowledge, has no ability that Annie can recognize. I propose that there is the natural ether (coyote, rey, annie, etc.), and there is the technological ether ( , tic-tocs, kat, ...). This second ether is perhaps the product of the experimentations at the ether stations. There is one being that we know of who straddles both: Zimmy. And she can't handle it, which is why her visions are so terrifying. But she's the only person that we know of who has seen both Annie's etheric self and Kat's 'etheric' self. I suspect that some of the robots, including Robot, are already sensitive to this 'new ether.' Robot may be the first, which is why he is/was considered a heretic, and yet is so certain that Kat is the Angel. Not bad, not bad at all. So, Kat might, in the end, be the one who can handle the court created ether... this unifies perfectly the two lines of her becoming the robot-godess and the court's attempt to become a god. It's just she who becomes the god, and I feel those in court who thought they would have the great powers of the ether they created may end up regretting their project after a while, all despite probably first greeting this with enthusiasm. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2013 8:44:24 GMT
Warping subject back to chess briefly: Those are the modern and strategic ways you guys are looking at chess but the traditional old-school ways are what the game evolved from... medieval battle tactics. If I remember right in the wee hours of the am the queen's guard are the champions of your side, but not tied down to the camp and logistical stuff so they can move as freely as they wish, attacking and retreating in any direction as needed. The king's guard is also elite but they are defensive in nature, so that's why you checkmate them and you win. The pawns are the conscript pike hedge; they have very little or no training so they can only move forward and they can only capture another unit when they catch them on the flank (but if they reach the enemy rear then they can do some real damage). Knights are generic cavalry, they can break through but they reform on the other side in particular ways or something. The rooks and castles are the nobles but I forget exactly what they represent other than mounted units that can charge through the battlefield in particular ways. But I'm sure there's resources online somewhere that can explain all this way better than I can.
[edit] Jones = queen? indestructible and pretty much neutral? Nah.[/edit]
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 22, 2013 8:54:40 GMT
Rooks were originally chariots in the Persian tradition but in the middle ages they came to represent siege engines, hence the nickname "castles".
Bishops aren't cavalry, but they do represent the clergy. If you notice, your two bishops start on different colors and will never be able to block one another.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2013 9:09:45 GMT
Rooks were originally chariots in the Persian tradition but in the middle ages they came to represent siege engines, hence the nickname "castles". Bishops aren't cavalry, but they do represent the clergy. If you notice, your two bishops start on different colors and will never be able to block one another. The rooks would be lancer chariots then I guess. There are other types in the persian tradition, like the big wagon-like ones that deployed archers. Thanks. |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 22, 2013 9:16:12 GMT
Just goes to show how much I know about reading music. You had a 50/50 chance of screwing that analogy up. A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#
So F and C are the only note without flats, likewise B and E don't have sharps.
Did You Know? Several genres of music use a rather different scale system, which uses quarter steps as well! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_harmonic_scale
Actually F-flat is a note, it the enharmonic of both E and D-double-sharp and among other places exists in the D-flat-minor scale. |
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fishtie
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Post by fishtie on Nov 22, 2013 10:14:05 GMT
Bishops do represent the clergy. Specifically, the irregular influence religion and it's politics can change a battle. That's why bishops move diagonally (unconventionally) over long distances.
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Post by philman on Nov 22, 2013 10:37:15 GMT
I always thought chess was an Indian game, and the rooks/castles were originally Elephants, while the bishops were more like Councillors or ministers. They became called Bishops in Europe simply because the shape of the piece looked like the hat, or mitre, worn by bishops.
EDIT: after doing a wiki read, apparently I was wrong the BISHOP was originally the elephant (I'd like to see THAT version of the Vatican), GK is right that the Rooks/Castles were originally chariots, and the queen was originally the advisor/minister.
I think a lot of the theory behind the 'queen's guard being attacking and king's guard being defensive' and that the bishops can never block each other are people reading too much into an ancient game...
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fishtie
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Posts: 114
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Post by fishtie on Nov 22, 2013 11:20:06 GMT
I just find it interesting how these kind of things change over time.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 22, 2013 18:52:36 GMT
I always thought chess was an Indian game, and the rooks/castles were originally Elephants, while the bishops were more like Councillors or ministers. They became called Bishops in Europe simply because the shape of the piece looked like the hat, or mitre, worn by bishops. EDIT: after doing a wiki read, apparently I was wrong the BISHOP was originally the elephant (I'd like to see THAT version of the Vatican), GK is right that the Rooks/Castles were originally chariots, and the queen was originally the advisor/minister. I think a lot of the theory behind the 'queen's guard being attacking and king's guard being defensive' and that the bishops can never block each other are people reading too much into an ancient game... There is a lot of confusion because the game didn't come from one sun source. I like to imagine people trying to work these things out with models or pebbles thousands of years ago and then formalizing it later. But about "king's guard being defensive" as a universal constant... you can argue about the name applied to the concept but baggage train and camp followers are slow things and mostly hapless things. |
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Post by warrl on Nov 24, 2013 17:36:52 GMT
Casting Kat and Annie as chess queens would, in my opinion, be appropriate for a weird three-person variant of chess. The third player controls both queens and has the objective of forcing a draw between the first two players. A queen cannot capture, or be captured by, a piece or pawn of her own color. If a king is "in check" (normal rules) by the same-color queen, not only does that check not apply but one additional check by a piece/pawn of the other color can be ignored. The queen-player is allowed to skip turns and can move either or both queens in one turn (but not move one queen twice).
For the standard game, here are two king/queen proposals:
Kings: Coyote, Headmaster
Queens: Ysengrim, Eglamore
Kings: Annie, Smitty
Queens: Ysengrim, Parley
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 24, 2013 23:07:43 GMT
What if Jones and Coyote are the players?
Kings are Annie and Headmaster, and queens are Ysengrin and Kat.
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 24, 2013 23:26:18 GMT
Well, I imagine the kings that don't do much, but would be important people. Queens aren't as important, but much more powerful. I just don't think Annie is either.
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 25, 2013 0:21:22 GMT
Well, I imagine the kings that don't do much, but would be important people. Queens aren't as important, but much more powerful. I just don't think Annie is either. IDK, Annie has proven to be pretty powerful with her pyrokinesis and various supernatural mediations. She certainly defeated Ysengrin's "army". |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 25, 2013 15:43:30 GMT
Well, I imagine the kings that don't do much, but would be important people. Queens aren't as important, but much more powerful. I just don't think Annie is either. IDK, Annie has proven to be pretty powerful with her pyrokinesis and various supernatural mediations. She certainly defeated Ysengrin's "army". But she can't tell the Court what to do. She's the forest medium, so she gets a little power there, but at the court she's technically a student |
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 26, 2013 0:51:39 GMT
IDK, Annie has proven to be pretty powerful with her pyrokinesis and various supernatural mediations. She certainly defeated Ysengrin's "army". But she can't tell the Court what to do. She's the forest medium, so she gets a little power there, but at the court she's technically a student That's why I figure she'd be a king, not a queen - she could become almost a living MacGuffin later in the story, though I'd have no clue why... |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 26, 2013 1:00:09 GMT
But she can't tell the Court what to do. She's the forest medium, so she gets a little power there, but at the court she's technically a student That's why I figure she'd be a pancake, not a muffin - she could become almost a living MacGuffin later in the story, though I'd have no clue why... Pardon? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 1:58:43 GMT
Well, I imagine the kings that don't do much, but would be important people. There are many endgames wherein material on the board is even, but one side's king activity tips the scales because, for example, a minor piece is denied an important square, or a passed pawn is stopped in its tracks. Likewise, there are many positions that appear lost, but are actually drawn by careful king maneuvers.On the whole, chess symbolism doesn't seem to fit Gunnerkrigg Court very well, if only because that would require Kat and Annie to be placed on opposite sides of the board. More importantly, chess requires several pieces to mirror each other. If we cast Parley as the rook, who would be her partner, Andrew or Eglamore? The former seems a strange choice for a piece that essentially serves as a battering ram; the latter would be identical in strength and hierarchy to his trainee. And who should fill the respective ranks on the Forest side? The chess theory is redeemed, though, by soundly re-establishing Ysengrin's position as the valiant, irreplacable Forest Queen. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 26, 2013 2:11:33 GMT
The chess theory is redeemed, though, by soundly re-establishing Ysengrin's position as the valiant, irreplacable Forest Queen. That does explain some things...plus, if Coyote is the King, that kind of works. Oddly. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 3:15:44 GMT
Coyote isn't just the King. He's one of the players.
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and who knows: certain portions of this discussion (the less far-fetched portions) may end up at least partially true.
, tic-tocs, kat, ...). This second ether is perhaps the product of the experimentations at the ether stations. There is one being that we know of who straddles both: Zimmy. And she can't handle it, which is why her visions are so terrifying. But she's the only person that we know of who has seen both Annie's etheric self and Kat's 'etheric' self.
