ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
Posts: 171
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Post by ST13R on Jan 17, 2017 20:44:51 GMT
Is it something special about just Robot himself and a couple of other robots, like the ship - did Robot get ethnically affected in the forest? Or perhaps he was affected earlier --- Annie found him dissembled, after all. Or maybe he gained etheric powers when Kat started messing with him, and she's always been kind of a mecha angel? I think this last panel ( ref.) explains something, though how that has worked in the larger scheme of things, I don't know yet  Maybe him having a choice could have influenced others having a choice of sorts. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 18, 2017 0:02:08 GMT
Something probably addressed earlier: If the robots have managed to dream up Kat as a Mecha Angel, it definitely means they have etheric influence. While that makes some sense given discoveries about the original robots, it makes Diego's abilities even more dramatic. Why isn't he depicted as a God in the ether? Why does Kat get that status? (Is it something special about just Robot himself and a couple of other robots, like the ship - did Robot get ethnically affected in the forest? Or perhaps he was affected earlier --- Annie found him dissembled, after all. Or maybe he gained etheric powers when Kat started messing with him, and she's always been kind of a mecha angel?) Also, how do these etheric influences translate when moving from the older sophisticated robot models to the new CPU types? And what does Anja look like in the ether??? Her supercomputer can make things appear out of thin air! . Actually we haven't seen what that extra piece is and it is just as likely to be sentience co-processor. But is there is difference between sentience and etheric in the Gunnerverse? |
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Post by fia on Jan 24, 2017 18:47:36 GMT
Something probably addressed earlier: If the robots have managed to dream up Kat as a Mecha Angel, it definitely means they have etheric influence. While that makes some sense given discoveries about the original robots, it makes Diego's abilities even more dramatic. Why isn't he depicted as a God in the ether? Why does Kat get that status? (Is it something special about just Robot himself and a couple of other robots, like the ship - did Robot get ethnically affected in the forest? Or perhaps he was affected earlier --- Annie found him dissembled, after all. Or maybe he gained etheric powers when Kat started messing with him, and she's always been kind of a mecha angel?) Also, how do these etheric influences translate when moving from the older sophisticated robot models to the new CPU types? And what does Anja look like in the ether??? Her supercomputer can make things appear out of thin air! . Actually we haven't seen what that extra piece is and it is just as likely to be sentience co-processor. But is there is difference between sentience and etheric in the Gunnerverse? The text below when Robot gets a new arm says "it all begins with a seed". Very suspicious. Very, very suspicious indeed. Maybe Coyote/Ysengrin gave Robot etheric powers..... O_________O; ? |
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Post by todd on Jan 25, 2017 2:00:30 GMT
Related to the discussion in other threads - if Kat gets in trouble with the Court over the Jeanne incident (say, Andrew does indeed die from his wound, the Court leadership investigates, and finds out that she was involved), how will that affect the robot religion that's sprung up around her? Will some of the robots begin to doubt that Kat really is an angel or a goddess (followed by the robots who remain true to her viewing them as unbelievers who must be converted or purged)? Or will they incorporate the Court leadership into their theology as, say, Satan-figures (or at least human persecutors - maybe even leading to the Robot Creed saying about Kat "who suffered under Headmaster Llanwellyn")?
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Post by jda on Jan 25, 2017 2:32:01 GMT
Remember that Annie was the one that started it all when she gave Robot something nobody had: a choice.
So, was Annie the snake equivalent on that theory?
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Post by jda on Jan 25, 2017 2:37:29 GMT
Secret never explained mysterious coprocessor even Kat (of all the techwhiz) has never seen?
The OMEGA device!!
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Post by saardvark on Feb 26, 2017 6:20:53 GMT
Remember that Annie was the one that started it all when she gave Robot something nobody had: a choice. So, was Annie the snake equivalent on that theory? nice. and to extend the religious allegory, perhaps robots "corrupted" by the ability to choose (knowledge of good and evil) now become sentient/human(ish)? and "fall" from the "purity" (or simplicity at least) of robot-hood into something... more? on a religious tangent, Kat-angel strikes me as a Moses figure for the robots, potentially bringing them into the "promised land" of organics, real feeling, ether contact, becoming more human-like. |
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Post by spritznar on Apr 13, 2017 4:05:11 GMT
The text below when Robot gets a new arm says "it all begins with a seed". Very suspicious. Very, very suspicious indeed. Maybe Coyote/Ysengrin gave Robot etheric powers..... O_________O; ? or it could be a reference to the seed of bismuth? |
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Post by spritznar on Apr 19, 2017 18:32:06 GMT
so, while we're wildly speculating, if the robots are developing sentience/souls (and propelling kat into godhood in the process)... they're going to need a psychopomp? because none of the current ones deal with robots... and kat happens to have a good friend with psychopomp potential...
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Post by saardvark on Apr 19, 2017 22:06:01 GMT
The text below when Robot gets a new arm says "it all begins with a seed". Very suspicious. Very, very suspicious indeed. Maybe Coyote/Ysengrin gave Robot etheric powers..... O_________O; ? or it could be a reference to the seed of bismuth? the seed bismuth seems to grow buildings/technology tho... it grew the Court after all. Not sure its good at growing living, natural things. |
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Post by spritznar on Apr 19, 2017 23:16:17 GMT
the seed bismuth seems to grow buildings/technology tho... it grew the Court after all. Not sure its good at growing living, natural things. well now you've quoted me and i can't delete the comment. as there were no links in the post i quoted, and i was too lazy to look it up, i thought "new arm" was referencing the one kat made(grew?) for him, not the one coyote gave him. it wasn't til my mass rereading that i realized my mistake, which i've been thinking about erasing on and off since i came back to this thread for my second post... |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 19, 2017 23:45:58 GMT
so, while we're wildly speculating, if the robots are developing sentience/souls (and propelling kat into godhood in the process)... they're going to need a psychopomp? because none of the current ones deal with robots... and kat happens to have a good friend with psychopomp potential... Chapter 46 The Realm Of The Dead made some people speculate about Kat being a psychopomp for the bots. In addition to having her credentials verified, she was able to waltz right into the Final Records. But it was left ambiguous and "remains to be seen". |
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Post by spritznar on Apr 20, 2017 0:12:40 GMT
so, while we're wildly speculating, if the robots are developing sentience/souls (and propelling kat into godhood in the process)... they're going to need a psychopomp? because none of the current ones deal with robots... and kat happens to have a good friend with psychopomp potential... Chapter 46 The Realm Of The Dead made some people speculate about Kat being a psychopomp for the bots. In addition to having her credentials verified, she was able to waltz right into the Final Records. But it was left ambiguous and "remains to be seen". that's also a possibility, but i felt like kat was verified for access but not necessarily as a psychopomp. because it seemed like annie was recognized as an " afterlife guide" without specifying who she was a guide for, so why would a robot one be different? (i mean maybe, because obviously robots are different, so who knows) ((tom. tom knows.)) and mort was allowed access too, despite not being a guide. (although kat did barge in alone first...) my thinking is that if kat does become deified because she essentially gives robots 'life' then it would make sense for her to have access to the realm of the dead, since that's a related field to life creation? edit: also, i was thinking about the retrospective for the first treatise where tom mentions the fire and water symbols for annie and kat, and "when they're overlayed on top of each other they form all of creation" (7:20) so them being life and death respectively seemed fitting edit edit: although i also just like the thought of annie becoming a psychopomp period if kat becomes a god, so they can still hang out together |
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Post by warrl on Apr 20, 2017 2:17:53 GMT
Well, Annie really was, already, an afterlife guide - at that point she had guided one person and assisting on another. And she was there to clarify the status of another person before guiding him. Incidentally I just finished reading a book about a rather different sort of afterlife guide... at least I guess you could call her that... |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 12, 2017 17:17:01 GMT
(bump due to the increased relevance of robots again, and new users)
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Post by puntosmx on Jun 14, 2017 3:51:35 GMT
so, while we're wildly speculating, if the robots are developing sentience/souls (and propelling kat into godhood in the process)... they're going to need a psychopomp? because none of the current ones deal with robots... and kat happens to have a good friend with psychopomp potential... Chapter 46 The Realm Of The Dead made some people speculate about Kat being a psychopomp for the bots. In addition to having her credentials verified, she was able to waltz right into the Final Records. But it was left ambiguous and "remains to be seen". Though, Kat can't become a pomp due to a critical difference: She is impervous to the ether. The Pomps's work is to take souls back into the ether, and Annie is highly sensitive to it because its part of her pomp nature. Kat, on the other hand, does not register it. Period. The ROTD is all smoke and mirrors, and the ether makes it real for those who visit. Kat can pierce through that veil and sees the world in the "boring" shape it has. So, beyond philosophical debates about robots having souls and those souls having any meaning to the ether (which I have my opinion about it), Kat doesn't have the essential key tool to remove that soul and pass it into the ether: Sensitivity. |
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 14, 2017 18:42:29 GMT
Though, Kat can't become a pomp due to a critical difference: She is impervous to the ether. The Pomps's work is to take souls back into the ether, and Annie is highly sensitive to it because its part of her pomp nature. Kat, on the other hand, does not register it. Period. The ROTD is all smoke and mirrors, and the ether makes it real for those who visit. Kat can pierce through that veil and sees the world in the "boring" shape it has. So, beyond philosophical debates about robots having souls and those souls having any meaning to the ether (which I have my opinion about it), Kat doesn't have the essential key tool to remove that soul and pass it into the ether: Sensitivity. But she isn't impervious to it, otherwise she wouldn't be able to percieve it at all. Take Mort for example. He's a ghost, an ethereal being, yet she is still able to percieve him and recognizes him as a ghost. What she sees in the Realm of the Dead is different from what Annie and Mort see, but she does still see something even though it is almost entirely an ethereal area. To me, it seems less about the sensitivity to the ether part and more about the perception of reality part. The ether is all about perception, after all. Most folks in the Court who have one foot in the ether are more imaginative types and those who accept the ether for what it presents itself to be. They are invested in the ether emotionally and/or intellectually, thus they would tend to see etherical projections in a fairly uniform fashion, one that fits with the archetypes they expect. Kat's very different from all of them with her far more analytical mind and her perception of the world around her as something that can be broken down into its fundamental parts and reconstructed toward other purposes. So it isn't that she can't sense the ether, or that she can't sense it as well as other people, or even that she's piercing a veil that it's covering itself with, it seems to me that it's simply that she senses it in a completely different way. She comes at the ether laterally, so while it does still present itself to her, it does so in a way that falls in line with her particular type of mindset. And because of the way she sees it, she actually has more tools to work with in the ether rather than fewer, which we have already seen on previous occasions. Rather than her being impervious to the ether, it would seem to be more accurate to say that the ether has no power over her, a very different sort of situation that apparently allows her to have an inordinate amount of power over it instead. If she were to become a psychopomp for robots, I think it very likely that others would see something like her putting her hand over a dying robot's chest (or equivalent) and drawing its soul out in the form of shooting electricity and showers of sparks then placing it carefully within a mystical Leyden jar so that it can be taken through a portable door into a bright white light, while from her perspective all she's doing is cut/pasting the portion of their code that corresponds with a soul onto a code cube for later transference into an etheric database where it will be disseminated back into the prime robotic source code. I don't see why her difference in perception would stop her from being able to manipulate things in the ether when it hasn't stopped her before. All she needs to do is more fully realize said difference in perception and then develop her own set of tools (or rather, more of them) that would allow her to take advantage of this. I would think her parents would be of some help in this, should she ever delve deeper into the research they've already done. |
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Post by jda on Jun 15, 2017 15:59:44 GMT
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 15, 2017 17:31:26 GMT
Just like Annie doubts that Jones is not as emotionless as she says, I am not entirely convinced that her claim to having no connection to the ether is entirely accurate. She is an eons old, thus-far-completely impervious being that looks like a human even though she existed well before humans ever did, so she almost certainly is an etheric creature of some type herself. I posit that her unique state of being (with "unique state of being" not being an entirely unique condition amongst etheric entities, mind) would operate similarly to Kat's unique intellectual tempermant in that even though she's hip deep or further in the ether, she accesses it in a different way from others, a way that makes it only seem like she's cut off. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jun 15, 2017 20:23:47 GMT
Just like Annie doubts that Jones is not as emotionless as she says, I am not entirely convinced that her claim to having no connection to the ether is entirely accurate. She is an eons old, thus-far-completely impervious being that looks like a human even though she existed well before humans ever did, so she almost certainly is an etheric creature of some type herself. I posit that her unique state of being (with "unique state of being" not being an entirely unique condition amongst etheric entities, mind) would operate similarly to Kat's unique intellectual temperment in that even though she's hip deep or further in the ether, she accesses it in a different way from others, a way that makes it only seem like she's cut off. By saying she has no connection to the ether, I think Jones just meant that she can't use magic, a la blinker stone and such. I gather that most humans are like that - no special magical abilities, but they can certainly see it's effects in the normal world. They're the sort of people that just look grey and boring when viewed in the ether. Other beings are "connected" to it in that they can use it in its raw state - peer into or swim inside of it, as Coyote once put it. They can look colorful in Annie's "ether-vision" - Coyote, Diego's Arrow, even Jack has a tenuous connection to the ether. Jones' etheric creation gave her some pretty crazy physical abilities, but nothing more than that (as far as anyone knows). As for Kat, I think she also lacks any etheric connection - normally - but that wand she made can definitely be considered to have one, and...apparently extended that connection to her? I hope that helps! I'm just explaining my perspective on generally how magic/ether seems to work, but I still leave the big Kat theories to you guys. |
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Post by calpal on Mar 7, 2018 20:37:24 GMT
Thanks, I've forgot about these pages: 1144, 1145. They know what they are doing. They recognize traits. I'm telling you: Kat is Creator just like Annie is Fire Elemental. You said that Kat does not have connection with ether. I have already asked "what does it mean". Kat have etheric form. Jones said that she has no connection to ether, even though she is creature of ether. So this is not such simple thing. I think that The Deity can be Seed Bismuth. Because it seems that growing is important part of this cult. And Court grew from seed bismuth. Look at the context of this page! And robots believe that as well (BTW this is the same chapter). BTW, about souls: I think that in this universe humans didn't have souls in first place. They just was afraid of death so they invented myth about souls. By this they create souls. They start to makes they copy at moment of death. Humans and their minds made not from bones and neurons, but from ether. So then ether could easily absorb this copy along with all information. This is why Coyote said "everyone is brought back into ether" [1073], because this death-humans/souls are made of ether. So robots does not have souls merely because they don't believe they suppose to have. Which probably will change. About recognizing Kat as angel: do you think that Robot already was talking to Paz's robot? But more important: how he convinced SkyWatcher? Asked about angels he said it's ridiculous, but after first [glance at Kat] [he was convinced]. Jones is still, at the end of the day, a being shaped by the ether due to humanity; that's different than actually being human, like Kat is. Kat actually doesn't have an Etheric appearance herself; she is as bland and uninteresting, etherically, as most other students, last that we saw her directly in the ether. Zimmy's vision of her is something entirely different, methinks, but beyond that, I don't believe any other etheric being sees her differently - well, unless you count Paz... well actually, ever since that moment, we haven't really seen Kat in the ether, so who knows at this point? Bismuth is something different, I don't see it as being a Deity in and of itself; it was something that allowed the Court to grow buildings and effectively overtake the natural growth of the forest. There's a difference between the old Court and whatever new one exists now; Not only was information entirely destroyed, as it was with Jeanne, but information has also been immensely altered to the point where no one in the Court believes that it actually "grew", rather that it was just built by the founders. Beyond all that, however, there is just not enough information to actually explain what exactly Bismuth was, or how it was made, or how it even functioned as a semi-artificial construct. As for Robots having a soul, I think they first need to experience what life is actually like for the living; they need to experience all the sensations and feelings that come with the biological process, and that's what this chapter seems to be all about. Will Robot count as a living thing now, or is this biological arm merely a temporary addition to his new body until his full artificially-grown body is made? Aaaand now we suddenly have pretty much exactly how this is done, only with real humans being grown. Only question left is whether Kat will not repeat Diego's fault and design them to be able to, ahem... reproduce?Well it's been a long time running since we've brought this thread back from the depths of decay, and I would like to mention two things: 1) Kat has, indeed, designed the robots to be able to reproduce, just like I predicted she would. One step closer to achieving true living! But more importantly; 2) With the most recent developments in the story, Coywolf is (more likely than not) going to war against the Court. This is going to be the most important stress-test on the entire branch of this theory: do the robots mobilize under their script to defend the Court, or do they mobilize to protect Kat, the Angel, and all of her works? Can Robot himself "die" in the ensuing conflict? What other factors are going to lead towards the uprising of Kat's deity-hood? And where do the Tic-Tocs fit in to all of this?! |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 9, 2018 20:14:34 GMT
But more importantly; ... where do the Tic-Tocs fit in to all of this?!I doubt the Tic-Tocs are part of Coyote OR the Court's plan. The Tic-Tocs either weren't made by the court or all records of their creation and working were destroyed. We know they have some connection with the ether, but I doubt they were natural. (I can't find the page in which Muut said they do not deal in electrical appliances.) It would be interesting if they came from the Seed of Bismuth; it surely grows like Bismuth. |
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Post by najmniejszy on Mar 10, 2018 1:49:54 GMT
Well, we can't be sure it grows like Bismuth, it was established that Ysengrin was actually lying and he came down to where the Tic-Toc crashed within minutes, before it could have grown. It still might grow like that, but for now, we only have the fact that other people found Ysengrin's lie believeable to suggest it might be true (see gunnerkrigg.com/?p=320). |
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Post by madjack on Mar 10, 2018 5:31:11 GMT
But more importantly; ... where do the Tic-Tocs fit in to all of this?!I doubt the Tic-Tocs are part of Coyote OR the Court's plan. The Tic-Tocs either weren't made by the court or all records of their creation and working were destroyed. We know they have some connection with the ether, but I doubt they were natural. (I can't find the page in which Muut said they do not deal in electrical appliances.) It would be interesting if they came from the Seed of Bismuth; it surely grows like Bismuth. Some of the dialog and events during Katurday sparked a few thoughts about what the real nature of these things could be, and I'm going to say its the opposite: the Tic-Tocs are relatively simple (for the court), mundane devices that exist in places they aren't supposed to. This theory is contingent on my guess about the Omega project being a space-time viewing/probability engine being correct: That Kat or a group of people working with her will combine it with the matter-transfer technology to cut-and-paste material objects across time and space. Note that the omega system isn't perfect: Anthony and Surma had to come back and check every day for several weeks before the event they wanted occurred. This is my guess about the nature of the Tic-Tocs: They are simple, short duration surveillance and utility drones that are meant to be deployed into the past(/future?) at location/date A and quietly collected X hours/days/weeks later at location/date B. What is there to support this idea? Not a lot. We're into shipping-tier flimsy here, get the tinfoil fitting snug. First, there's Zimmy. She definitely can't stand them looking at them but I think this page may contain a clue as to why: She gets lost in her own warped past as it bleeds into her present, which is depicted repeatedly as something that happens often to her. Someone struggling to keep themselves sane in that way would definitely flip out if they saw something that was definitely physically real but felt did not belong for whatever reason. Second, there's Kat. They're birds. Birds that disappear from the story the moment Kat becomes fully involved with Annie's life, and only show up afterwards when she isn't around. The exception is the bridge, which is the only time we see them in force, already there and waiting. This is the main reason I think Kat is somehow behind them, or to be affiliated with whoever is, since she could fill in any necessary information firsthand about several other events they've both been involved in. This may also be why Zimmy doesn't like Kat, because she sees that Kat may become the enabler of all this misplaced weirdness, although that may be more related to the robots and their beliefs than this. Third, is a little bit of meta-information that Tom provided, although I don't know where the source is (other than on TVtropes). This little tidbit about Traveller: "The dog didn't die in the end." I can't think of many gifts for a beloved better than plucking the dog she lost when she was younger out of the ocean before it drowned and returning it to her years later. Or maybe trying to, but instead dropping it right in the path of Steadman and getting him killed? That really would be twistedly funny. This probably belongs in wildspec, but I'd rather not derail that from Ysote discussion. |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 12, 2018 16:56:01 GMT
Third, is a little bit of meta-information that Tom provided, although I don't know where the source is (other than on TVtropes). This little tidbit about Traveller: "The dog didn't die in the end." I can't think of many gifts for a beloved better than plucking the dog she lost when she was younger out of the ocean before it drowned and returning it to her years later. Or maybe trying to, but instead dropping it right in the path of Steadman and getting him killed? That really would be twistedly funny. This probably belongs in wildspec, but I'd rather not derail that from Ysote discussion. I thought Traveller technically didn't die because he turned into a Black Dog or some other mythological canine figure, because the other dogs told his story. But now I can't find the source for that, either. |
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Post by keef on Mar 12, 2018 21:56:55 GMT
This is my guess about the nature of the Tic-Tocs: They are simple, short duration surveillance and utility drones that are meant to be deployed into the past(/future?) at location/date A and quietly collected X hours/days/weeks later at location/date B. What is there to support this idea? Not a lot. We're into shipping-tier flimsy here, get the tinfoil fitting snug. I love it, especially as an explanation why the court could never catch one. Probably most of us suspected some connection to Kat anyway, but the connection to the matter transfer in Katurday nails it for me. I'd love to know the source, for the "Word of Tom" thread. You can not derail wildspec (except with an overload of facts maybe). On the other hand it is about Kat, so this is the right place I guess. I thought Traveller technically didn't die because he turned into a Black Dog or some other mythological canine figure, because the other dogs told his story. But now I can't find the source for that, either. Speculation in the Traveller thread maybe? And this:  I’m in Spain right now visiting family and there is a Black Dog myth here in Galicia called the Can Do Urco, a dog that comes from the ocean, so I drew a quick sketch. I’d like to color it properly when I get home. Related to someone in the Gunnerkrigg universe perhaps? I can't find the page in which Muut said they do not deal in electrical appliances.) |
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Post by madjack on Mar 13, 2018 1:35:30 GMT
Third, is a little bit of meta-information that Tom provided, although I don't know where the source is (other than on TVtropes). This little tidbit about Traveller: "The dog didn't die in the end." I can't think of many gifts for a beloved better than plucking the dog she lost when she was younger out of the ocean before it drowned and returning it to her years later. Or maybe trying to, but instead dropping it right in the path of Steadman and getting him killed? That really would be twistedly funny. This probably belongs in wildspec, but I'd rather not derail that from Ysote discussion. I thought Traveller technically didn't die because he turned into a Black Dog or some other mythological canine figure, because the other dogs told his story. But now I can't find the source for that, either. Wouldn't the other dogs have had to die and carry his story into the ether? Not sure that's likely to happen before Traveller drowned, but maybe it counts if he comes back as a myth afterwards? The thing thats bugging me about the tic-tocs the most is the way that one began growing while it was buried. I guess it could be attempting to build itself a distress beacon of some kind? Nothing we've seen out of either the Court or Kat's experiments has shown conventional metal robots growing in any way though. |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 13, 2018 13:45:16 GMT
I thought Traveller technically didn't die because he turned into a Black Dog or some other mythological canine figure, because the other dogs told his story. But now I can't find the source for that, either. Speculation in the Traveller thread maybe? And this: I’m in Spain right now visiting family and there is a Black Dog myth here in Galicia called the Can Do Urco, a dog that comes from the ocean, so I drew a quick sketch. I’d like to color it properly when I get home. Related to someone in the Gunnerkrigg universe perhaps? YES!! Thank you, you're a miracle-worker, keef! I think my brain is doing that thing where it takes fan theories and mixes it up with canon. Glad to see I didn't imagine that post by Tom, though. Wouldn't the other dogs have had to die and carry his story into the ether? Not sure that's likely to happen before Traveller drowned, but maybe it counts if he comes back as a myth afterwards? My implication was that the dogs told Traveller's story until they died, and he would become a mythical dog/Black Dog 20 years or so into the future. |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 13, 2018 13:46:22 GMT
The thing thats bugging me about the tic-tocs the most is the way that one began growing while it was buried. I guess it could be attempting to build itself a distress beacon of some kind? Nothing we've seen out of either the Court or Kat's experiments has shown conventional metal robots growing in any way though. *whispers* It grew from the Seed Bismuth. |
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Post by madjack on Mar 13, 2018 15:19:54 GMT
*whispers* It grew from the Seed Bismuth. I can't decide if that post/av combo is absurdly funny or extremely disturbing. Probably both. Since they aren't Diego's creations, If they were grown from the Seed Bismuth, or something like it, before the court was founded, the only other person I can think of who could have made them would be Artilleryman and only because we know almost nothing about him at all. I went back and checked the early chapters and they do look timeworn in ch 1/3 but not so much in chapter 7/8 and 11, so it could just be Tom's art style slowly changing, but I can't tell if they're that old. |
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Maybe him having a choice could have influenced others having a choice of sorts.
