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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 25, 2015 22:45:53 GMT
I don't see why any associated logs and codes can't be forged right along with the feeds, given enough time and processing power. I assumed that if it's some kind of communal memory log, other individuals would notice that they'd never seen it before. I presume (falsely, perhaps) that the robots would have their own individual memories about what information they'd previously seen uploaded to the hub, and would notice differences. But either seems reasonable depending on how the robots store information. I suppose there would be different challenges depending on what who wants to forge from when. Suppose someone wanted to fake memories from Diego's time. Optical storage was probably beyond him; most likely memory was a function of the clay golem heart* but if not it was probably magnetic. I can envision either a bimetal spring that passes through a reader or a narrow spool of paper coated with metal powder or something else that can hold a charge. Those could be faked if you've got period materials, and could conceivably have survived from a broken robot to pop up somewhere after all this time. Diego looks like he experimented with various types of lens inputs on his little dudes so you could work with a number of possible visual/audio setups. Sample Jeanne and Diego from the existing recording, build them onto 3d models, maybe have actors the same size and body type green-screen the models to make it realistic, and then add the voices and you've got your "memory" of Diego accidentally walking in on Jeanne in the shower-bath and finding out she was secretly a dude (or whatever). Controlled exposure to heat and bottled oxygen can artificially age the spring or paper if you don't have period materials, a little dust sampling from Diego's lab may add period isotopes, but the obstacle there would be that Diego's stuff is likely well documented by the robots and any new finds would be scrutinized carefully. You'd also have to make sure the losses and fade for the charge was realistic for something that was stored for a long time, and the story about how it was found would have to pass muster. But the robots seem gullible and that's working in your favor. Only destructive testing would prove it was a fake if you did a good job on the "memory" and if you trim off areas where such tests could be performed without losing content that would make them very nervous about doing it. For something modern the memory from a broken robot seems like the safest bet (since a long absence while you make the fake is suspicious) but it would be possible to erase memories from a robot and implant what you want. In addition to the authenticity of the "memory" you'll have to erase all physical and electronic evidence of tampering. Damage to the robot could hide some of that but is a red flag. *Otherwise the kids or the other robots could just pull answers off the sleeping robots in Diego's tomb. Memories stored in clay through magic are probably not recoverable without waking the robot, unless you can do the Vulcan mind meld or something, in which case maybe magic is the answer to making a fake there too. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 28, 2015 9:27:17 GMT
Honestly, the scariest thing about Robot to me now is how human he's becoming. This page would've been heartwarming to me a couple years back, but with the situation as it is now i'm beginning to worry how emotions and physical feeling will affect the direction Robot leads his cult. We already saw his fixation on pain. Oh, absolutely. The Cult is going to share the experiences of humanity with many of the robots...but we forget how overwhelming and novel these experiences can be for an organism that has never felt them. We might get robots that embody the least positive aspects of humanity. I hope Robot S13 doesn't go too far with this (though he will...) – I like the society of robots portrayed so far. A secondary fear I realized on your response, is how long do we have until The Cult and Robot Society are one and the same? Is that the point when their belief starts altering reality, or do they all need to be welcomed to the world of the biologic first? Will being made flesh make them easier to convert to The Cult, will it be a rite of passage, will it be a proof of The Cult's teachings, and fleshiness will be a serious reason to join? Such an innocuous page is making me so, so worried for the future. Crosspost for discussion... Also, imaginaryfriend, I swear I'll get around to responding to your last post when I find time... |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 28, 2015 11:15:39 GMT
Also, imaginaryfriend, I swear I'll get around to responding to your last post when I find time... No problem. Meanwhile I'll meditate on blushing and perspiring robots. Artistic licence or is it possible he's condensing/leaking and overheating? |
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Post by l33tninja on Dec 28, 2015 18:54:22 GMT
A secondary fear I realized on your response, is how long do we have until The Cult and Robot Society are one and the same? Is that the point when their belief starts altering reality, or do they all need to be welcomed to the world of the biologic first? Will being made flesh make them easier to convert to The Cult, will it be a rite of passage, will it be a proof of The Cult's teachings, and fleshiness will be a serious reason to join? Such an innocuous page is making me so, so worried for the future. I think we are overreacting a little to Robot's experience with pain. It wasn't a "fixation" in that he is obsessed with it to a dangerous point. It was a completely new experience that he had to understand, interpret, and deal with. He is like a baby learning to crawl or talk or whatever. Note that he has already come a long way in just a few minutes after seeing Shadow again. So he is already starting to understand how to deal with physical feelings. I don't think we should act like Robot is a powder keg with a lit fuse. He is a mechanical being that Kat is bringing into the living world - he has a steep learning curve ahead of him.
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Post by l33tninja on Dec 28, 2015 19:06:19 GMT
I assumed that if it's some kind of communal memory log, other individuals would notice that they'd never seen it before. I presume (falsely, perhaps) that the robots would have their own individual memories about what information they'd previously seen uploaded to the hub, and would notice differences. But either seems reasonable depending on how the robots store information. I suppose there would be different challenges depending on what who wants to forge from when. Suppose someone wanted to fake memories from Diego's time. Optical storage was probably beyond him; most likely memory was a function of the clay golem heart* but if not it was probably magnetic. ... This discussion is interesting. The cohesiveness of the robot collective memory versus any individual robot memory should theoretically by identical. However, there could be errors of interpretation just through electrical scaling and receiving of signals. And the various methods and safeguards to successfully insert a false memory is well documented by imaginaryfriend .
I guess my original point was different, though. I was trying to say that the robots would not have to deal with the fallibility of memory or interpretation as humans do. Their receptors and memories could recall without fail any experience or "vision" and would therefore be more convincing to Robot's followers. Robot can recount exactly what he experienced and they could receive it exactly, with (ideally speaking) no difficulty of language or transmission. I was not thinking that Robot would fabricate memories, especially since he doesn't need to. This discussion of Robot's religion can't have the implication that most religious discussions hold: being that the existence of God is unconfirmed. But Robot's God is real. Kat IS actually creating their life and they are observing it happen. They have the advantage over humans in that they can see creation as it occurs, whereas we have memory only post-creation.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 28, 2015 20:17:54 GMT
The cohesiveness of the robot collective memory versus any individual robot memory should theoretically by identical. However, there could be errors of interpretation just through electrical scaling and receiving of signals. Some more thots: If there is a collective memory bank it could be vulnerable to viruses and errors of omission. It would be far easier to delete information than to insert; just infect one robot and then have it infect the collective, the malware activates after all the other robots have visited the bank so no robot is "clean." Even if the gap is detected they probably wouldn't recover everything and if the gap was filled with something similar they might not find out they'd been had for long enough that they couldn't do anything. And maybe the reason the robots are cheerful and helpful is that they manage their memories to particular ends. If the Kult of Kat fails, for example, the robot society may decide to delete memory of it to retain harmony. Also, cameras can "lie." Before digital photography existed there was a whole art form of trick photography, some of which wasn't darkroom-based. There's still unexplained photographs circulating from that era, as well as sound recordings of improbable or impossible things (search the internets and you can find them). Even modern tech has its limits; I had a problem a decade or so ago when my car got hit in a parking garage while I wasn't in it and the driver responsible took off. It was a side-swipe and the paint flecks didn't show on the asphalt. The cop responding reviewed the security tape and a badly timed glare plus the fact that it was low-rez meant he couldn't tell if my car was damaged or not, so he grilled me for half an hour before very reluctantly issuing me an accident report. Bottom line: Artificial senses can be more powerful than organic ones but they aren't infallible. I agree with your statement on the interpretation of signals and scaling, and would add that complex data can be duplicated identically but can always be interpreted in more than one way. |
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Post by kajorma on Jan 13, 2016 18:40:18 GMT
I finally made it through 17 pages. Wow, guys. So many things I hadn't seen/considered. I took some notes, and I wanted to talk about a few points made: 1) Where does Kat get tissue for her bio-robotics? Very early on in the comic, she made an anti-grav machine to experiment with growing proteins. No one besides her cared about the proteins, but I could see that research lead into growing tissue for this purpose. 2) In order to connect to the ether, a being has to die. Okay, this gets into robot souls and such that people have gone round and round on. But still I'll throw in my opinion. Great answer here. No, the meat and bones don't create a soul, they always had one (or at least that's the assumption that I'm running with). So if humans get a soul when they are born, is it possible that robots do as well? Muut says that he doesn't deal in appliances. He doesn't deal in insects either. What I'm getting at, is that maybe robots *do* have souls. If that is true, then what happens when they die? And what is death? www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=894So, every time a bot is switched off, it passes it's soul into the ether? And every time it is switched on it is reborn with a new soul?! If that's the case, then what has been happening every time the Kat moves Robot from one body to another? And this. Robot predicted the coming of a messiah before he knew Kat. He preached about it before the story began, and he was deactivated for it. When Annie retrieved his CPU she found many there being studied ("Trouble in the ranks?") They had all been deactivated as well. If all those bots passed their souls into the ether while they believed that savior was coming... Maybe Kat doesn't make the robots. Maybe the robots made Kat. |
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Post by l33tninja on Jan 13, 2016 19:33:45 GMT
I finally made it through 17 pages. Wow, guys. So many things I hadn't seen/considered. I took some notes, and I wanted to talk about a few points made: 1) Where does Kat get tissue for ... ...Muut says that he doesn't deal in appliances. He doesn't deal in insects either.... ...If all those bots passed their souls into the ether while they believed that savior was coming... Maybe Kat doesn't make the robots. Maybe the robots made Kat. Boom. Great conclusion. I like how you think.
I had a thought while reading your post here regarding Muut's comments. Perhaps there is a psychopomp for robots, but he just hasn't found the robots, yet. Or . . . maybe Annie will become the psychopomp for robots.
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Post by warrl on Jan 14, 2016 0:13:08 GMT
My tentative theory (and this is not GCK-specific, it's part of my real-world religious views) is that an entity has a soul if it is sapient and has an opinion about whether it has a soul - or if a sufficiently large fraction of other entities of the same sort (species, for biological entities; probably the design of the processor and long-term memory, for robots) qualify by that standard.
What that comes down to is that God is transfinite, and a "physical" manifestation (which is actually made of finite bits of God) becomes sufficiently complex that a transfinite bit of God can express through it. It's more or less a guess that "sufficiently complex" correlates with achieving sapience and being capable of contemplating the question of souls.
GKC robots so far have rarely-if-ever gone to the ether because (1) until recently they haven't seriously taken up the question of souls and (2) the soul, if there is one, remains with the processing unit, whether brain or chip, until that unit is no longer capable of functioning at the level required for sapience - permanently so according to the laws of nature as they exist in that universe. Which in the robots' case apparently requires the destruction of the processor - an unpowered processor is capable as soon as power is restored. The robots have an elaborate facility for preserving and storing processors of defunct robots, even ones they consider criminals, so few processors have been destroyed.
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Post by fallenleaves on Feb 15, 2016 22:36:27 GMT
(I'm afraid I haven't read through all 17 pages, so my apologies if this has already been said.) I can't help noticing, however, that the angel-Kat seen by Zimmy here does not look in the best condition. Look at the cracks in the face. Also, I find the systems around the outside utterly baffling. It has at least two sets of wings (assuming that's what the things on the front of the chest are). There are also an inordinate number of blade-things curving back towards it.
I'd imagine (wild speculation) that a robot's image of a god would be rather more functional than aesthetic, but I cannot see any plausible purpose to many of those features. However, we are seeing it through Zimmy's eyes, so we may not be getting a balanced view. There are differences between the two times I remember seeing angel-Kat (the other being here). The lower torso is completely different in the two images. I'm not sure whether that's Tom being inconsistent, or (I think much more likely) an indication that this is not something which can be seen objectively, as I think we're seeing through Paz's eyes there, though still while in Zimmy's dream-state-thingy. There are a large number of inputs. This, as has been said, fits nicely with the Tic-tocs. There are, however, a lot of them. I just had a slightly scary thought. Have we been thinking too small? Could we actually be looking at the Seed Bismuth? That might explain the devotion of the robots. That might also explain the cracks, as they would just be a sign of age. I've gone into wild speculation though, so I'll leave it there. tl;dr: there are things to notice in Gunnerkrigg Court, but too many of them so bets must be hedged. EDIT: I've just remembered that we actually saw the Seed Bismuth, or rather something pretending to be the Seed Bismuth here. There are similarities, but I don't think they're that similar. That's that theory finished, then. Unless the wasp-thing doesn't know what the Seed Bismuth looks like either. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 13, 2016 15:43:20 GMT
With all of the new people who will probably be flooding to the forum in the next couple pages due to Jeanne-related plot revelations, I thought I might bump this thread...
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Grabix
Junior Member
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Post by Grabix on Jul 13, 2016 18:53:54 GMT
EDIT: I've just remembered that we actually saw the Seed Bismuth, or rather something pretending to be the Seed Bismuth here. There are similarities, but I don't think they're that similar. That's that theory finished, then. Unless the wasp-thing doesn't know what the Seed Bismuth looks like either. I have exactly opposite feeling. I was sure that wasp didn't know how Seed Bismuth looked like, I've assumed that it was to long time ago and nobody know that. But maybe I was wrong. Similarities are stunning!!! It is more-or-less this same type of body and decorations. It like more etheric-magical version of technical angel-Kat. Maybe Kat is Seed Bismuth, maybe Seed had two natures: magical and technical. Or maybe Kat is Omega Device  ... ... and... when may brain constructed sentence "Kat is Omega Device", I have realized something ... Omega Device seriously can be actually a person. Just like Gamma and Zeta? ( devices?) |
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Post by dramastix on Jul 13, 2016 20:35:31 GMT
This has percolated in my head for a couple of pages now, but since Annie seems to be developing the ability to see people's ether-effects, will she now be able to see the Mecha-Angel when she looks at Kat in the ether? I imagine that'll be a shock, but it might be useful in the upcoming confrontation.
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 13, 2016 22:01:23 GMT
This has percolated in my head for a couple of pages now, but since Annie seems to be developing the ability to see people's ether-effects, will she now be able to see the Mecha-Angel when she looks at Kat in the ether? I imagine that'll be a shock, but it might be useful in the upcoming confrontation. I hope so! It's a little unclear whether Annie has already seen Kat looking Angel-y at the end of Chapter 49, due to the incursion of the ether into the "physical" world. |
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Post by dramastix on Jul 13, 2016 22:38:18 GMT
This has percolated in my head for a couple of pages now, but since Annie seems to be developing the ability to see people's ether-effects, will she now be able to see the Mecha-Angel when she looks at Kat in the ether? I imagine that'll be a shock, but it might be useful in the upcoming confrontation. I hope so! It's a little unclear whether Annie has already seen Kat looking Angel-y at the end of Chapter 49, due to the incursion of the ether into the "physical" world. I think she definitely didn't, or surely she would have said something by now (complete derailment of character in the immediately following chapter aside). Paz, on the other hand, appears to have had the good grace not to bring it up since Kat didn't seem to be aware of it. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 14, 2016 1:34:35 GMT
I hope so! It's a little unclear whether Annie has already seen Kat looking Angel-y at the end of Chapter 49, due to the incursion of the ether into the "physical" world. I think she definitely didn't, or surely she would have said something by now (complete derailment of character in the immediately following chapter aside). Paz, on the other hand, appears to have had the good grace not to bring it up since Kat didn't seem to be aware of it. I think it would be reasonable for Paz to assume that the glimpse she saw of Kat in her Mecha-Angel form was some kind of hallucination. But if Paz sees Kat like that again, then it will be harder to deny that something is going on. The Seraphs also saw the Mecha-Angel and I've been waiting for them to build something in the likeness of the Mecha-Angel, something Paz might eventually see. Paz has shown that she can see past surface appearances. Paz thinks Lindsey is beautiful while Kat is still creeped out by her. In Traveller, Paz kept the piece of ground glass she found when she was a little kid even though it was just discarded glass. I think Paz will handle finding out that Kat is more than she appears, probably better than Kat will handle it. |
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Post by calpal on Aug 8, 2016 8:37:44 GMT
So... anyone else praying that Etheric-Kat will make some sort of grand, spectacular appearance to the crew? I'm hoping for some great reveal of mytical proportions, like the 1950's film "The Ten Commandments" where it's lightning, thunder, and speaking with a voice that sounds like it booms across the land.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 8, 2016 15:35:00 GMT
So... anyone else praying that Etheric-Kat will make some sort of grand, spectacular appearance to the crew? I'm hoping for some great reveal of mytical proportions, like the 1950's film "The Ten Commandments" where it's lightning, thunder, and speaking with a voice that sounds like it booms across the land. I thought we already did that scene  |
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Post by jda on Aug 8, 2016 17:25:12 GMT
Bet 2: MajesticMetalGod Kat vs Jeanne will be the Final Bout.
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Post by calpal on Aug 8, 2016 21:26:14 GMT
So... anyone else praying that Etheric-Kat will make some sort of grand, spectacular appearance to the crew? I'm hoping for some great reveal of mytical proportions, like the 1950's film "The Ten Commandments" where it's lightning, thunder, and speaking with a voice that sounds like it booms across the land. I thought we already did that scene Well... we did and didn't. I think Paz knows, but she just chalks it up as etheric craziness delusions. If Annie and the others knew, though, then maybe Paz will chime in and say "oh yeah, I saw her do that before! I thought I was just crazy!" |
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Post by calpal on Oct 24, 2016 14:42:22 GMT
Bet 2: MajesticMetalGod Kat vs Jeanne will be the Final Bout. YOU MAY BE RIGHT, AFTER ALL!! |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 11, 2016 7:20:06 GMT
Katerina Donlan approves! |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Nov 21, 2016 13:01:22 GMT
I used to adovcate that Kat is the divine inspiration for the bots' Mecha Angel and not the divine Mecha Angel herself. But given the direct associations we've seen through Chapter 59, I have to modify my stance...
I now think that Kat is the Mech Angel's pupae. The robot's need for purpose was the Mecha Angel's embryonic stage. The robot prophecies were the Mecha Angel's larval stage. Now Kat is the Mecha Angel's pupal stage. When reality is distorted by Zimmy or Kat's device, we see glimpses of the Mecha Angel's form either as it is developing within Kat or as it will be in the future. When Kat's mortal life ends, the Mecha Angel will emerge fully formed. Whether there will be anything left of Kat for a psychopomp to take and pass into the ether remains to be seen.
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Post by Storel on Nov 24, 2016 1:33:29 GMT
Katerina Donlan approves! I've been meaning to ask, Daedalus, what is that art from? |
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Post by calpal on Nov 24, 2016 3:46:03 GMT
Katerina Donlan approves! I've been meaning to ask, Daedalus, what is that art from? That particular piece of work comes from a web comic called Romantically Apocalyptic. I have not followed up on it in a while, but the art is quite something to look at. Although I can't remember if there was some controversy or other regarding how much of that was original work or whatnot... could be remembering things wrong. |
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Post by eulalia on Jan 13, 2017 17:10:11 GMT
1.) I love this thread too much 2.) Ever since this chapter's reminder of Robot Goddess Kat's etheric form, I'm feeling more and more like Coyote's answer to Annie's question about what the function of the Court was is less trolling or metaphor and more straight up, literal truth. As Jones said, he doesn't lie. The answer is probably not even coy or enigmatic, maybe Godhood is the Court's ultimate purpose. 3.) Just an aside, this world is really, really effed up when you think about it. The child-body growing, the hand-antenna, the use of dead lovers as basically an electric fence. YIKES. |
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ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
Posts: 171
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Post by ST13R on Jan 17, 2017 13:43:18 GMT
On a completely unsomewhat related note: While I ofcourse do not wish harm unto unarmed animals, would the death of this guy make Annie eligible for some form of godhood as well? As she confirmed the stories herself, will she become god of rump slapping?! Furthermore, I support this theory of "Katholicism". :3 |
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Post by fish on Jan 17, 2017 16:42:00 GMT
On a completely unsomewhat related note: While I ofcourse do not wish harm unto unarmed animals, would the death of this guy make Annie eligible for some form of godhood as well? As she confirmed the stories herself, will she become god of rump slapping?! I would assume there are a few more deaths needed to reach critical ether mass for a good to be born. Kat has a whole robotic people worshipping her, she's miles ahead of Annie. 😂 |
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Post by Gotolei on Jan 17, 2017 19:25:56 GMT
On a completely unsomewhat related note: While I ofcourse do not wish harm unto unarmed animals, would the death of this guy make Annie eligible for some form of godhood as well? As she confirmed the stories herself, will she become god of rump slapping?! I would assume there are a few more deaths needed to reach critical ether mass for a good to be born. Kat has a whole robotic people worshipping her, she's miles ahead of Annie. 😂 Makes you wonder, though. Animals live and die quickly. How many critters like this one might be running around spreading exaggerated stories? (I also wonder just how much of the robot society is actually worshiping, rather than just being "oh wow" every once in a while while S13 keeps trying to make a big show of it) |
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Post by fia on Jan 17, 2017 20:31:19 GMT
Something probably addressed earlier:
If the robots have managed to dream up Kat as a Mecha Angel, it definitely means they have etheric influence. While that makes some sense given discoveries about the original robots, it makes Diego's abilities even more dramatic. Why isn't he depicted as a God in the ether? Why does Kat get that status? (Is it something special about just Robot himself and a couple of other robots, like the ship - did Robot get ethnically affected in the forest? Or perhaps he was affected earlier --- Annie found him dissembled, after all. Or maybe he gained etheric powers when Kat started messing with him, and she's always been kind of a mecha angel?) Also, how do these etheric influences translate when moving from the older sophisticated robot models to the new CPU types?
And what does Anja look like in the ether??? Her supercomputer can make things appear out of thin air!
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