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Post by calpal on Dec 6, 2015 4:58:51 GMT
I have wrote this in thread about Page 1600Somebody recognized other senses in that page, so this is probably not about that. However now I want to contribute to this thread a bit. Firstly I've found this: 1452 as you can see there is symbol of Fire-Elemental above Annie's symbol. But above symbol of Kat/Creator there is some symbol which very much looks like eye. I think that there is some serious connection between Kat and Tic-tocs. However I don't really believe in that explanation with Kat's lore retroactively creates Tic-tocs in the past, I think it would have happened only after Kat will really became a god. I think this is related to previous robot's deity. Because there was a divine being [646]. This is interesting one - robots already have had some religion, some myths and some how this myths had to create Tic-tocs. Maybe that was some prophecy about Kat coming? Because as I've said: Tic-tocs can grow [276].This kinda looks like story about Kat, about some divine beings who can create growing robots. On other hand... this is not how myths originated. Myths are created when people needs to explain something they do not understand. So maybe somebody needed to explain Tic-tocs and invented deity... who then somehow change the nature of Tic-tocs (so they can grow) and maybe it somehow have impact on Kat? Do creators of that story have to be humans? Or can they be robots? We often assume that robots do not interact with ether? But what does it mean? Can somebody explain WHY EVERY ROBOT RECOGNIZE KAT AS ANGEL? 221, 756, 637 They just see her and understand that she "is angel" - whatever that mean. Even SkyWatcher how was more than skeptical about very existence of angels. So how does it work? I think this is the most important question in scope of this whole robot-topic. One can assume that maybe this is somehow just programmed into them like this "She died and we did nothing". But Kat has her etheric form, so this is somehow related to the ether. It seems that robot can feel this etheric ... something. On other hand people of forest does not recognize Tic-tocs as etheric being. Kat does not feel ether very well. She even wasn't fooled be ROTD. But she have some odd insight into technology and was able to understood code of robots and a-bit understood Diego's code 887/ 888. Look at the symmetry between Kat and Annie. Kat belongs to Court, to technology, Annie belongs to Forest, to magic. Look again at page 1452, Annie is part-FireElemental so Kat is part- something. I think that ether itself have two aspects just like human mind - poetical one and strict/mathematical one. This is why human are able to create ether-using computers and Diego was able to create those golems. Today's robots are still connected to this part of ether by sharing this supernatural aspects of their code from Diego's code. This is why they are affected be Kat's etheric (but still very "mathematical") nature. About Kat becoming god ... I think she already is one a bit. Just like Annie. I mean not so powerful like Coyote, and maybe because of that cult, her power will rise. But it is not exactly what Court is about (Man's endeavour to become god (... BTW, what about /Robot's endeavour to become human/ ?)). She is already partially-etheric being. Other question: what is that extra part? A bit about symmetry: maybe Kat is part-golem? Because of dialog on page 883. "Myths are created when people needs to explain something they do not understand. So maybe somebody needed to explain Tic-tocs and invented deity... who then somehow change the nature of Tic-tocs (so they can grow) and maybe it somehow have impact on Kat?" More or less, this is the entire context of The Great Secret Chapter: if Coyote is a being of human thought, then he shouldn't really exist at all, were it not for the Ether being designed to take human souls and basically fabricate these myths into reality. So if Diego didn't make the Tic-Tocs, nor did the Robots, nor the Golums in Jeanne's Tomb, nor literally anyone else in the past... then who made the Tic-Tocs? Synthetic life-forms; ornithological forms; capacity of altruism; importance to Robotic mythology... only one other being can be associated with ALL those aspects, and that being is Kat. And if Coyote IS right, and humans can make things BEFORE they even exist, then perhaps the Tic-Tocs are the product of Robots believing them into existence before even Court Robots existed in the first place. Beyond Tic-Tocs, no other Robot mythology has a being that already exists prior to the Court; they either were associated with Diego and his creations, or predicted to come into being. So if a Robotic Diety already exists, then it begs the question: where is it? Why does it not physically exist the same way that other Deities and mythological beings exist? All of that could be due to the problem I've found when it comes to Court Robots: Robots do not die, not in the sense that humans do. If they can't die, then they can't contribute their spiritual essence to the Ether and make real what was only myth. An even more important note than that, however, is that Robots simply do not have souls. They have intelligence, but not a "spirit" that resides within them... although I've theorized earlier that maybe there's something that connects a robotic code to the idea of a soul. And where, oh where, have we just recently seen the imprints of the code onto something physical? This is why I think the Chapter we are embarking on may be one of very critical importance to the idea of robots coming alive, more so than any other chapter focused on Robot shenanigans: this is "living" synthetic material, imbued with the code / "soul" of robots, finally integrated with an actual Court Robot. Maybe all of this is the reason why Robot is able to convey his new sensations in otherwise profoundly weird and unsettling ways... As for why Robots began to view Kat as an Angel, that is entirely Robot's fault. He has, for reasons that have yet to be seen (which will be a chapter I very much look forward to, thank you very much Tom), been led to believe that they are meant to await a spiritual being; one who will bring Robots into a new era of existence. The Seraph models captured him and ensured he could not spread this " disinformation and rumour" because it was outside of old Robot Orthodoxy, but we know how the story goes: Annie finds Robot and builds him his body, then allows him to decide whether to come back to the Court or stay in Gillitie Forest. He is rebuilt by Kat after the Bridge disaster, and after discovering Jeanne's Tomb - with Jeanne and Diego already significant people in the mythos of their people - began persuading other Robots, one by one, that Kat is the prophetic being meant to bring new meaning to their lives. And now that the Seraphs are convinced of the same thing, Robot is now effectively the most important being in Robot mythology, under the Tic-Tocs, Kat and Diego, respectively. Now the Seraphs and Robot seem to be pushing Kat to effectively make this prophecy realized. And as for Kat being part-something, in some parallel fashion to Annie being part-elemental... I highly doubt it. If Annie is connected to the ether and has spiritual and familial connections to the wild world of spirits and mythos, then Kat is, by virtue of your argument of parallels, opposite of Annie in that regard: she has absolutely no traits which would seemingly connect her to the ether, which Word of Tom has already spoken of (can't find the link for that, right now). Kat is a being of knowledge and reason; even while accepting that ether exists, she always despises the idea that it cannot be rationally explained through the empirical method. |
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Grabix
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Post by Grabix on Dec 6, 2015 14:02:01 GMT
Thanks, I've forgot about these pages: 1144, 1145. They know what they are doing. They recognize traits. I'm telling you: Kat is Creator just like Annie is Fire Elemental. You said that Kat does not have connection with ether. I have already asked "what does it mean". Kat have etheric form. Jones said that she has no connection to ether, even though she is creature of ether. So this is not such simple thing. I think that The Deity can be Seed Bismuth. Because it seems that growing is important part of this cult. And Court grew from seed bismuth. Look at the context of this page! And robots believe that as well (BTW this is the same chapter). BTW, about souls: I think that in this universe humans didn't have souls in first place. They just was afraid of death so they invented myth about souls. By this they create souls. They start to makes they copy at moment of death. Humans and their minds made not from bones and neurons, but from ether. So then ether could easily absorb this copy along with all information. This is why Coyote said "everyone is brought back into ether" [1073], because this death-humans/souls are made of ether. So robots does not have souls merely because they don't believe they suppose to have. Which probably will change. About recognizing Kat as angel: do you think that Robot already was talking to Paz's robot? But more important: how he convinced SkyWatcher? Asked about angels he said it's ridiculous, but after first [glance at Kat] [he was convinced]. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 6, 2015 16:41:22 GMT
Thanks, I've forgot about these pages: 1144, 1145. They know what they are doing. They recognize traits. I'm telling you: Kat is Creator just like Annie is Fire Elemental. You said that Kat does not have connection with ether. I have already asked "what does it mean". Kat have etheric form. Jones said that she has no connection to ether, even though she is creature of ether. So this is not such simple thing. I think that The Deity can be Seed Bismuth. Because it seems that growing is important part of this cult. And Court grew from seed bismuth. Look at the context of this page! And robots believe that as well (BTW this is the same chapter). BTW, about souls: I think that in this universe humans didn't have souls in first place. They just was afraid of death so they invented myth about souls. By this they create souls. They start to makes they copy at moment of death. Humans and their minds made not from bones and neurons, but from ether. So then ether could easily absorb this copy along with all information. This is why Coyote said "everyone is brought back into ether" [1073], because this death-humans/souls are made of ether. So robots does not have souls merely because they don't believe they suppose to have. Which probably will change. About recognizing Kat as angel: do you think that Robot already was talking to Paz's robot? But more important: how he convinced SkyWatcher? Asked about angels he said it's ridiculous, but after first [glance at Kat] [he was convinced]. 's theory that Kat is a biological android is presented in the Wild Speculation thread and discussed earlier in this thread. It is similar to your pondering about Kat being a hybrid something and somehow the bots recognize a connection on sight once they are predisposed to consider it. I like the android theory with the explanation that Anja is Kat's creator, but it does require an adherent to believe that Kat's creator(s) are keeping it a secret from Kat and everyone not involved in Kat's creation. I think Sky Watcher's conversion was the "in comic" demonstration of the spread of the robot religion, and Bobby's recognition of Kat as the Angel showed the readers that the robot religion was spreading behind the scenes. It seems that the seraphs may have been the final hold outs and their conversion may have been the in comic culmination of Robot's proselytizing. I don't mean to be pendant, but Bobby is not Paz's robot. The robots aren't owned like property. The people in the Court seem to just accept them as ubiquitous, useful, and peers in some cases by some individuals. Bobby is the veterinary / lab assistant robot that works in the clinic / lab where Paz volunteers. I believe Paz would say that Bobby is her colleague, who happens to be a robot. |
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Post by calpal on Dec 7, 2015 12:53:22 GMT
Thanks, I've forgot about these pages: 1144, 1145. They know what they are doing. They recognize traits. I'm telling you: Kat is Creator just like Annie is Fire Elemental. You said that Kat does not have connection with ether. I have already asked "what does it mean". Kat have etheric form. Jones said that she has no connection to ether, even though she is creature of ether. So this is not such simple thing. I think that The Deity can be Seed Bismuth. Because it seems that growing is important part of this cult. And Court grew from seed bismuth. Look at the context of this page! And robots believe that as well (BTW this is the same chapter). BTW, about souls: I think that in this universe humans didn't have souls in first place. They just was afraid of death so they invented myth about souls. By this they create souls. They start to makes they copy at moment of death. Humans and their minds made not from bones and neurons, but from ether. So then ether could easily absorb this copy along with all information. This is why Coyote said "everyone is brought back into ether" [1073], because this death-humans/souls are made of ether. So robots does not have souls merely because they don't believe they suppose to have. Which probably will change. About recognizing Kat as angel: do you think that Robot already was talking to Paz's robot? But more important: how he convinced SkyWatcher? Asked about angels he said it's ridiculous, but after first [glance at Kat] [he was convinced]. Jones is still, at the end of the day, a being shaped by the ether due to humanity; that's different than actually being human, like Kat is. Kat actually doesn't have an Etheric appearance herself; she is as bland and uninteresting, etherically, as most other students, last that we saw her directly in the ether. Zimmy's vision of her is something entirely different, methinks, but beyond that, I don't believe any other etheric being sees her differently - well, unless you count Paz... well actually, ever since that moment, we haven't really seen Kat in the ether, so who knows at this point? Bismuth is something different, I don't see it as being a Deity in and of itself; it was something that allowed the Court to grow buildings and effectively overtake the natural growth of the forest. There's a difference between the old Court and whatever new one exists now; Not only was information entirely destroyed, as it was with Jeanne, but information has also been immensely altered to the point where no one in the Court believes that it actually "grew", rather that it was just built by the founders. Beyond all that, however, there is just not enough information to actually explain what exactly Bismuth was, or how it was made, or how it even functioned as a semi-artificial construct. As for Robots having a soul, I think they first need to experience what life is actually like for the living; they need to experience all the sensations and feelings that come with the biological process, and that's what this chapter seems to be all about. Will Robot count as a living thing now, or is this biological arm merely a temporary addition to his new body until his full artificially-grown body is made? Aaaand now we suddenly have pretty much exactly how this is done, only with real humans being grown. Only question left is whether Kat will not repeat Diego's fault and design them to be able to, ahem... reproduce? |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 7, 2015 17:04:37 GMT
Why can't vat or tank grown be another acceptable form of reproduction? |
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Post by storyteller on Dec 7, 2015 17:32:25 GMT
Jones is still, at the end of the day, a being shaped by the ether due to humanity; that's different than actually being human, like Kat is. Kat actually doesn't have an Etheric appearance herself; she is as bland and uninteresting, etherically, as most other students, last that we saw her directly in the ether. Zimmy's vision of her is something entirely different, methinks, but beyond that, I don't believe any other etheric being sees her differently - well, unless you count Paz... well actually, ever since that moment, we haven't really seen Kat in the ether, so who knows at this point? Something that I find interesting is looking back through the ROTD and consider it as part of a government bureaucracy with Kat being someone from a separate branch but with a good deal of authority. You have the maze, with everyone getting the run around. When they arrive, Kat sees the Librarian right away, kinda like going directly to the manager or supervisor. The Librarian is basically engaging in a turf war, trying to show that he was the one in charge. It does not help that he did not like Anne for being a medium. By the third time Kat is one no longer taking the runaround, the Librarian isn't actively getting in her way anymore as he no longer has any room to, and she appears to have more authority then him considering they were not sent to yet another room, and that the equipment request didn't go through the Librarian. And when the Librarian lays in to Kat, Kat finally throws her weight around and orders him out. As has been said before, we saw how Kat saw the Librarian, we saw how the Librarian looked to Mort and Anne. We know how Mort and Anne looked to Cat and vice versa. We did not see how Kat and Anne were seen by the Librarian. Also of importance is that, between ROTD and the Cruise, there may not have been that much time in between. You have Anne visiting the Forest, and taking Mort to the ether. And that is it. Considering that Paz saw Kat's Angel appearance, the mantle of the Angel's role could likely have already been settling for Kat in the ether, as the robot arm had 'died' in the chapter directly preceding ROTD and Robot believes those arms to have been alive. Considering that those arms were somewhat cellular based and could not just be fixed, there was some death. There arms may not have been sentient, so it is comparable to killing a tree but that might be enough for the ether to start its work. |
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Post by warrl on Dec 8, 2015 0:40:36 GMT
The problem with the theory of Jones being of the ether (like Coyote) is that there are no extant legends that she fits, that extend back to the beginning of the planet.
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
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Post by corvis on Dec 8, 2015 3:18:01 GMT
The problem with the theory of Jones being of the ether (like Coyote) is that there are no extant legends that she fits, that extend back to the beginning of the planet. Legends don't have to extend back to the beginning of the planet (that's not possible), they just have to claim that the being they tell of goes back to the beginning. Coyote, for example, set the stars into the sky--and brought about death itself, according to one story--but I seriously doubt Coyote stories have been told for more than a thousand years, tops. And that's not a long time in the grand scheme of things. Even then, I don't think that (in our universe, I don't know about Gunnerkrigg) adults ever worshiped him, or believed that a coyote was anything but a coyote. But perhaps the children did... |
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corvis
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Post by corvis on Dec 8, 2015 3:21:36 GMT
Then again, maybe belief doesn't even have to enter into it. Maybe just telling made up stories to educate and entertain is enough. Even fairy tales have a touch of truth to them...
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Post by warrl on Dec 9, 2015 2:41:00 GMT
The problem with the theory of Jones being of the ether (like Coyote) is that there are no extant legends that she fits, that extend back to the beginning of the planet. Legends don't have to extend back to the beginning of the planet (that's not possible), they just have to claim that the being they tell of goes back to the beginning. That's exactly what I meant by legends extending back. Their content, not their origin. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they go back about 10,000 years. But 30,000 years WOULD surprise me. A coyote would be a spirit animal, in several Native American mythologies. But then, all animals have spirits - some more so than others. Coyote, on the other hand, is not merely a coyote. He's a genuine trickster god. Which... "worship" is not quite the right term. You don't worship a trickster god, you try to appease it so it will leave you alone. Occasionally it might do something beneficial (some more likely than others, with Coyote about in the middle), but that isn't the way to bet. |
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Post by keef on Dec 9, 2015 12:19:01 GMT
The problem with the theory of Jones being of the ether (like Coyote) is that there are no extant legends that she fits, that extend back to the beginning of the planet. A difference between the gunnerverse and discworld is that forgotten/unworshipped gods not necessarily fade away in the gunnerverse. But I don't think Jones is mythical, for the moment I think she is the embodiment of science. Although in that case shouldn't she be 13.8 billion years old? |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 9, 2015 13:22:58 GMT
But I don't think Jones is mythical, for the moment I think she is the embodiment of science. Although in that case shouldn't she be 13.8 billion years old? Myth should predate science, assuming there is an objective reality in the Gunnerverse. Science in the Gunnerverse may just be the organized creation of myths through hypotheses and theories. Assuming that Jones is really billions of years old (predating myths) I don't see anything else needed for her creation than matter and ether, which we know exist, though her personality may have changed drastically since since she appeared. My guess is that she was first an ideal of woman/mankind, became the way she is personality-wise through the millions of years of solitude, and she may have been re-purposed into an "objective observer"/goddess of science over time as beliefs/myths changed. And she may have been "re-purposed" several other times we don't know about. |
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Post by nero on Dec 9, 2015 18:47:22 GMT
Its almost like Jones exists to refute myths but in doing so became a myth herself.
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
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Post by corvis on Dec 10, 2015 3:42:35 GMT
Legends don't have to extend back to the beginning of the planet (that's not possible), they just have to claim that the being they tell of goes back to the beginning. That's exactly what I meant by legends extending back. Their content, not their origin. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they go back about 10,000 years. But 30,000 years WOULD surprise me. A coyote would be a spirit animal, in several Native American mythologies. But then, all animals have spirits - some more so than others. Coyote, on the other hand, is not merely a coyote. He's a genuine trickster god. Which... "worship" is not quite the right term. You don't worship a trickster god, you try to appease it so it will leave you alone. Occasionally it might do something beneficial (some more likely than others, with Coyote about in the middle), but that isn't the way to bet. My apologies, I misread. Thank you. Perhaps you're right. I suppose the timeframe must be immaterial anyway, because folktales transcend time. Did people make offerings to tricksters? I always thought that they were more fictional figures that were meant to teach or entertain, rather like Ananse in Africa. Over in the Pacific Northwest, we have Raven (who came here from Russia), but I'm not so sure any of those original peoples actually thought that Raven found humanity in a clam, any more than the Greeks thought that the first spider was born a woman and cursed by Athena. (Then again, the Egyptians really did believe that a celestial beetle caused the sun to rise and set...) I'm not claiming to know anything about it, I could be wrong, but I don't think that all myths were religious, that is, regarded as the absolute truth by the people's who told them. There's a difference between a coyote with spiritual meaning and a Coyote that is actually a spirit. Either that, or I just don't know what you mean, exactly, although I do think I've seen your points. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 10, 2015 12:36:45 GMT
Its almost like Jones exists to refute myths but in doing so became a myth herself. What's powerful and real that isn't a myth in the Gunnerverse? Jones is helpful with knowledge of things etheric; she teaches the mediumship class after all. I dunno if I'd say she exists to refute things that aren't "true" but she is transformative to stories... Some she objectifies in the sense of making them concrete, others she debunks, some she leaves alone while claiming to have knowledge she won't share. She acts like a guardian of a particular body of knowledge that contains both science and myth in a universe where there may be no objective reality. She is apparently curious (collects knowledge) and possibly is a perfect neutral hypothetical observer, which would make a good anchor for an evolution-based story on how humans (and other life forms) came to be, though I think her emotionlessness is open to question (re: how she treats Randy, Antimony's comments on the subject of Jones, and what Jones did/said when making Mort a ghost) which would support a view of an "evolving" Jones. Supposing that her mentoring and sharing lives (taking names of) humans is merely an extension of curiosity, containing mimicry of emotion to further her interaction with humans so that she can gain more intimate knowledge than she otherwise would have, she still makes choices of what to pursue and what not to, therefore she is favoring some over others. The only analogy that I can think of in the few minutes I take to write this post this morning is that of a cell wall; Jones allows helpful things to pass, prevents dangerous things, and in so doing preserves a particular environment. That's probably not very illustrative but maybe I'll think of a better one later today. Maybe a regulator of some type. |
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Post by calpal on Dec 11, 2015 2:46:58 GMT
Its almost like Jones exists to refute myths but in doing so became a myth herself. What's powerful and real that isn't a myth in the Gunnerverse? Jones is helpful with knowledge of things etheric; she teaches the mediumship class after all. I dunno if I'd say she exists to refute things that aren't "true" but she is transformative to stories... Some she objectifies in the sense of making them concrete, others she debunks, some she leaves alone while claiming to have knowledge she won't share. She acts like a guardian of a particular body of knowledge that contains both science and myth in a universe where there may be no objective reality. She is apparently curious (collects knowledge) and possibly is a perfect neutral hypothetical observer, which would make a good anchor for an evolution-based story on how humans (and other life forms) came to be, though I think her emotionlessness is open to question (re: how she treats Randy, Antimony's comments on the subject of Jones, and what Jones did/said when making Mort a ghost) which would support a view of an "evolving" Jones. Supposing that her mentoring and sharing lives (taking names of) humans is merely an extension of curiosity, containing mimicry of emotion to further her interaction with humans so that she can gain more intimate knowledge than she otherwise would have, she still makes choices of what to pursue and what not to, therefore she is favoring some over others. The only analogy that I can think of in the few minutes I take to write this post this morning is that of a cell wall; Jones allows helpful things to pass, prevents dangerous things, and in so doing preserves a particular environment. That's probably not very illustrative but maybe I'll think of a better one later today. Maybe a regulator of some type. I almost imagine her as some sort of Immortalized Oracle, who knows and sees all, yet refuses to share what is not pertinent to the fate of people whom approach her. |
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freeman
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That 70's Coyote!
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Post by freeman on Dec 11, 2015 21:11:55 GMT
The thing with Jones is that she seemingly poses a paradox within the gunnerverse rules, that is she herself is the source of all the legends concerning her. What's more, the group of believers isn't that big, but it's presumably stretched over the whole history of human race, filling what ever believer treshold gunnerverse sets upon aetheric phenomenom. Though as she has been associated with venus figurines in the comic (confirmed by Tom), it could also be her origin could be the supposed "earth mother" myths. Given Native American mythology has heavy influence in gunnerkrigg pantheon, she could even spifically be the Pachamama. |
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
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Post by corvis on Dec 14, 2015 3:05:20 GMT
How about "Earth Daughter"?
Sorry, I'm butting in again, but I just realized that a large part of why this thread came about is that Robot has made us too believe that Kat is an Angel. I mean, we all speak of him as succumbing to delusion or leading a robotic cult, but seriously, deep down I can't seem to shake off his ideas. Some part of me apparently believes that someday Kat will be a fully fledged divinity. We're all pretty certain it could happen, from what we know of Ether, the question is, does the plot as we know it indicate that it will?
So that makes two fictional characters messing with our heads. Is that scary or what?
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Post by nero on Dec 14, 2015 18:24:26 GMT
What's powerful and real that isn't a myth in the Gunnerverse? Jones is helpful with knowledge of things etheric; she teaches the mediumship class after all. I dunno if I'd say she exists to refute things that aren't "true" but she is transformative to stories... Some she objectifies in the sense of making them concrete, others she debunks, some she leaves alone while claiming to have knowledge she won't share. She acts like a guardian of a particular body of knowledge that contains both science and myth in a universe where there may be no objective reality. She is apparently curious (collects knowledge) and possibly is a perfect neutral hypothetical observer, which would make a good anchor for an evolution-based story on how humans (and other life forms) came to be, though I think her emotionlessness is open to question (re: how she treats Randy, Antimony's comments on the subject of Jones, and what Jones did/said when making Mort a ghost) which would support a view of an "evolving" Jones. Supposing that her mentoring and sharing lives (taking names of) humans is merely an extension of curiosity, containing mimicry of emotion to further her interaction with humans so that she can gain more intimate knowledge than she otherwise would have, she still makes choices of what to pursue and what not to, therefore she is favoring some over others. The only analogy that I can think of in the few minutes I take to write this post this morning is that of a cell wall; Jones allows helpful things to pass, prevents dangerous things, and in so doing preserves a particular environment. That's probably not very illustrative but maybe I'll think of a better one later today. Maybe a regulator of some type. I almost imagine her as some sort of Immortalized Oracle, who knows and sees all, yet refuses to share what is not pertinent to the fate of people whom approach her. The cell analogy is fine, Jones certainly has her own ideas about how to interact with all the life she has encountered. She hasn't really found a place she belongs in. She found out she isn't human even though she has the same outer structure. She isn't an etheric god because she can't interact with the ether. This makes me see a connection between her and Kat. Zimmy's weird time bending showed us that Kat could become an etheric Angel for the robots. The creation of a new species, and Kat is the only one we've seen so far capable of creating someone like Jones. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 14, 2015 19:57:43 GMT
I almost imagine her as some sort of Immortalized Oracle, who knows and sees all, yet refuses to share what is not pertinent to the fate of people whom approach her. The cell analogy is fine, Jones certainly has her own ideas about how to interact with all the life she has encountered. She hasn't really found a place she belongs in. She found out she isn't human even though she has the same outer structure. She isn't an etheric god because she can't interact with the ether. This makes me see a connection between her and Kat. Zimmy's weird time bending showed us that Kat could become an etheric Angel for the robots. The creation of a new species, and Kat is the only one we've seen so far capable of creating someone like Jones. Maybe Jones is the linchpin for humanity's story in the Gunnerverse, a preexisting, central and unchangeable cog that regulates the mechanistic world in which Kat was born and operates. |
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Post by l33tninja on Dec 22, 2015 23:39:45 GMT
Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Annie isn't heralded more highly by the robots as a creator? I just re-read Chapter 1 and Robot does call her "mommy" at that point.
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Post by Gotolei on Dec 23, 2015 0:03:04 GMT
They know she's a friend of Kat's, but she doesn't exactly go out of her way to seem knowledgeable.And poking through the archives, seems the only time she's interacting with bots in general (as in, other than S13)* is when she's also with Kat. S13 might be fond of her, but I'm guessing to the rest of the robots she's just "that girl." *or boxbot, but nobody cares about him anyways |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 23, 2015 9:37:36 GMT
They know she's a friend of Kat's, but she doesn't exactly go out of her way to seem knowledgeable.And poking through the archives, seems the only time she's interacting with bots in general (as in, other than S13)* is when she's also with Kat. S13 might be fond of her, but I'm guessing to the rest of the robots she's just "that girl." *or boxbot, but nobody cares about him anywaysI think she's significant, but not in the same way. Robot sees/saw her as his "mother", but not in a supernatural sense. Her accomplishments in "building" him amounted to putting together pre-assembled parts, but the most important thing she did for him was to give him a choice about whether to come back from the Forest. (Also, to decide and rescue him, but I'm not sure if he knows that was her idea since he woke up to Kat's face.) Overall, she's the first person to treat him like a human, so she's at least responsible for at least setting him down the path he's on currently. He hasn't brought her up in his teachings yet, though, but time may change that...perhaps the's The Acolyte who accompanies The Angel. |
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Post by calpal on Dec 23, 2015 13:03:37 GMT
They know she's a friend of Kat's, but she doesn't exactly go out of her way to seem knowledgeable.And poking through the archives, seems the only time she's interacting with bots in general (as in, other than S13)* is when she's also with Kat. S13 might be fond of her, but I'm guessing to the rest of the robots she's just "that girl." *or boxbot, but nobody cares about him anywaysI think she's significant, but not in the same way. Robot sees/saw her as his "mother", but not in a supernatural sense. Her accomplishments in "building" him amounted to putting together pre-assembled parts, but the most important thing she did for him was to give him a choice about whether to come back from the Forest. (Also, to decide and rescue him, but I'm not sure if he knows that was her idea since he woke up to Kat's face.) Overall, she's the first person to treat him like a human, so she's at least responsible for at least setting him down the path he's on currently. He hasn't brought her up in his teachings yet, though, but time may change that...perhaps the's The Acolyte who accompanies The Angel. Or perhaps she was the fire that lit the sky up with the stars? |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 23, 2015 15:11:59 GMT
They know she's a friend of Kat's, but she doesn't exactly go out of her way to seem knowledgeable.And poking through the archives, seems the only time she's interacting with bots in general (as in, other than S13)* is when she's also with Kat. S13 might be fond of her, but I'm guessing to the rest of the robots she's just "that girl." *or boxbot, but nobody cares about him anywaysI think she's significant, but not in the same way. Robot sees/saw her as his "mother", but not in a supernatural sense. Her accomplishments in "building" him amounted to putting together pre-assembled parts, but the most important thing she did for him was to give him a choice about whether to come back from the Forest. (Also, to decide and rescue him, but I'm not sure if he knows that was her idea since he woke up to Kat's face.) Overall, she's the first person to treat him like a human, so she's at least responsible for at least setting him down the path he's on currently. He hasn't brought her up in his teachings yet, though, but time may change that...perhaps the's The Acolyte who accompanies The Angel. Skywatcher referred to Annie as the Angel's friend. I assume that is how the other robots see Annie, with the exception of Robot. |
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Post by l33tninja on Dec 23, 2015 19:38:39 GMT
They know she's a friend of Kat's, but she doesn't exactly go out of her way to seem knowledgeable.And poking through the archives, seems the only time she's interacting with bots in general (as in, other than S13)* is when she's also with Kat. S13 might be fond of her, but I'm guessing to the rest of the robots she's just "that girl." *or boxbot, but nobody cares about him anywaysI think she's significant, but not in the same way. Robot sees/saw her as his "mother", but not in a supernatural sense. Her accomplishments in "building" him amounted to putting together pre-assembled parts, but the most important thing she did for him was to give him a choice about whether to come back from the Forest. (Also, to decide and rescue him, but I'm not sure if he knows that was her idea since he woke up to Kat's face.) Overall, she's the first person to treat him like a human, so she's at least responsible for at least setting him down the path he's on currently. He hasn't brought her up in his teachings yet, though, but time may change that...perhaps the's The Acolyte who accompanies The Angel. Interesting thoughts. I wonder if robot religion would have the advantage of being able to share experiences and "remember" them perfectly. Whereas human religion relies on a recount experiences of others. So an interaction such as Robot and Annie could never be "forgotten" (although it could be interpreted differently). Anyway, at some point if Robot shares his life with his followers, they might see Annie differently. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 24, 2015 17:07:01 GMT
I wonder if robot religion would have the advantage of being able to share experiences and "remember" them perfectly. Whereas human religion relies on a recount experiences of others. So an interaction such as Robot and Annie could never be "forgotten" (although it could be interpreted differently). Probably. But thanks to CGI, sampling, selective editing, and the best of intentions a robot religion could also "remember" events that never happened. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 24, 2015 18:50:58 GMT
I wonder if robot religion would have the advantage of being able to share experiences and "remember" them perfectly. Whereas human religion relies on a recount experiences of others. So an interaction such as Robot and Annie could never be "forgotten" (although it could be interpreted differently). Probably. But thanks to CGI, sampling, selective editing, and the best of intentions a robot religion could also "remember" events that never happened. Given this precedent, I suspect that the errors in interpretation will be the bigger issue. We've never seen evidence either way about whether their memories are read-only (and thus not editable in the same sense photos and videos are editable on a computer). |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 24, 2015 23:29:27 GMT
Probably. But thanks to CGI, sampling, selective editing, and the best of intentions a robot religion could also "remember" events that never happened. Given this precedent, I suspect that the errors in interpretation will be the bigger issue. We've never seen evidence either way about whether their memories are read-only (and thus not editable in the same sense photos and videos are editable on a computer). I don't see why any associated logs and codes can't be forged right along with the feeds, given enough time and processing power. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 25, 2015 21:00:24 GMT
Given this precedent, I suspect that the errors in interpretation will be the bigger issue. We've never seen evidence either way about whether their memories are read-only (and thus not editable in the same sense photos and videos are editable on a computer). I don't see why any associated logs and codes can't be forged right along with the feeds, given enough time and processing power. I assumed that if it's some kind of communal memory log, other individuals would notice that they'd never seen it before. I presume (falsely, perhaps) that the robots would have their own individual memories about what information they'd previously seen uploaded to the hub, and would notice differences. But either seems reasonable depending on how the robots store information. Also, interesting implication: do robots normally "forget" data, or is it a byproduct of the arm wired into his chip? If so, he may be becoming more human than he intended... If it's normal, it might explain some past ditzy behavior by robots. Perhaps, Court robots live in the moment. They can plan and calculate future events, but only in regards to, the data of the moment they find themselves in. When the moment changes, their plans (or inner monologues) can become irrelevant and are subsequently dropped. Some robots (Robot) may see a bit of forest, but for most it may be nothing more than "Tree. Tree. Tree. Tree. Tree. Tree..." Perhaps, increasing their Ether footprint might change that. After all, the ether IS somewhat connected to memory and beliefs... |
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