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Post by Brother_Spartacus on Sept 1, 2014 13:57:48 GMT
So Diego is Old-Testament-God and Kat is Jesus.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 1, 2014 14:31:41 GMT
I think Kat is more of a messiah (with a little "m") as opposed to the Son of God. I believe Tom specifically avoids references to the major current religions*, so I wouldn't get too literal in our comparisons.
* No offense intended towards North American Indians and Coyote.
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 1, 2014 16:37:19 GMT
I think Kat is more of a messiah (with a little "m") as opposed to the Son of God. I believe Tom specifically avoids references to the major current religions*, so I wouldn't get too literal in our comparisons. * No offense intended towards North American Indians and Coyote. True, though the metaphor holds at a surface level. (shrug) |
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Post by November on Sept 24, 2014 12:05:58 GMT
I think Kat is more of a messiah (with a little "m") as opposed to the Son of God. I believe Tom specifically avoids references to the major current religions*, so I wouldn't get too literal in our comparisons. Ugh. This is semantics, of course, but I disagree with how you're using the term. Messiah doesn't mean "Son of God". It's a term used to describe a holy saviour, and while the term has Abrahamic origins, it's still just a term. If Kat fits the description of the term, Kat can be called "the Messiah", or "a messiah", or whatever - and it still wouldn't be a reference to a current major religion. It would be an appropriate term to use. And also, I don't think ahwilliampenn meant "Kat is literally Jesus". I think he/she meant "In robot religion, one could say that Kat has roughly the same position as Jesus has in Christianity". It's a valid parallel to make without having to be a reference. I don't think anyone here believes Kat is the daughter of Diego. |
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Post by Chancellor on Sept 24, 2014 13:01:33 GMT
This is going to make for some seeeerious self reflecting later.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 25, 2014 0:08:51 GMT
I agree with you so much that I feel compelled to argue! What else is the internet for? *said in a joking and self-deprecating manner* Messiah doesn't mean "Son of God". It's a term used to describe a holy saviour, and while the term has Abrahamic origins, it's still just a term. If Kat fits the description of the term, Kat can be called "the Messiah", or "a messiah", or whatever - and it still wouldn't be a reference to a current major religion. It would be an appropriate term to use. Almost exactly my point, but the Messiah (singular and capitalized) is synonymous with Jesus Christ to many people in my part of the woods. Thus my distinction between a messiah (exactly as you describe the term) and the Messiah (potentially interpreted by others as the Messiah of their religion). |
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Post by todd on Sept 25, 2014 10:56:44 GMT
These last few posts remind me of another little crazy notion that came to me over how this chapter might end (though I don't think Tom would do anything like that).
The upper-circles of the Court such as the Headmaster (the evidence in "Changes" indicates that the Donlans, Eglamore, and Jones are not part of it), alarmed about the robots' actions on the cruise ship, and what else the robots might do because of this "Creator Kat" business, decide to expel Kat in the hopes that it would short-circuit the robot religion and make it no further trouble. (Though Kat's such a major character that there's no way Tom would do this.) As the robots watch a dejected Kat leave, the Headmaster turns to them and says with a cold sneer, "Where's your messiah now?"
(Followed, possibly, by the move backfiring as the robots now look upon the Court leadership as a sort of Satan-figure or "Anti-Kat".)
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Post by sapientcoffee on Sept 25, 2014 11:22:24 GMT
Or robot exodus.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 25, 2014 11:28:50 GMT
These last few posts remind me of another little crazy notion that came to me over how this chapter might end (though I don't think Tom would do anything like that). The upper-circles of the Court such as the Headmaster (the evidence in "Changes" indicates that the Donlans, Eglamore, and Jones are not part of it), alarmed about the robots' actions on the cruise ship, and what else the robots might do because of this "Creator Kat" business, decide to expel Kat in the hopes that it would short-circuit the robot religion and make it no further trouble. (Though Kat's such a major character that there's no way Tom would do this.) As the robots watch a dejected Kat leave, the Headmaster turns to them and says with a cold sneer, "Where's your messiah now?" (Followed, possibly, by the move backfiring as the robots now look upon the Court leadership as a sort of Satan-figure or "Anti-Kat".) Interesting, but I agree that it is unlikely. I don't see the Court expelling one of their own, unless they thought the whole Court was threatened, which I guess is possible. More likely that they may react in an over-protective way. Independent of the Court, I can see Kat being so shocked/disillusioned that she abandons the robots, leaving them lost without their messiah. It is not hard to predict a scene after the current events where Kat meets Robot and she has to decide if she can trust any robot again. Kind of like Annie meeting Ysengrin after Ysengrin attacked her. |
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Post by todd on Sept 25, 2014 12:04:31 GMT
Independent of the Court, I can see Kat being so shocked/disillusioned that she abandons the robots, leaving them lost without their messiah. It is not hard to predict a scene after the current events where Kat meets Robot and she has to decide if she can trust any robot again. Kind of like Annie meeting Ysengrin after Ysengrin attacked her. I suspect the same thing. I certainly don't think she'll feel like returning to that workshop for a long time (unless this chapter takes another unexpected turn). |
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Post by November on Sept 25, 2014 16:58:30 GMT
So Diego is Old-Testament-God and Kat is Jesus. I was thinking a bit about this - have we ever seen the Cult of Kat talk about Diego? If the robots believe that only Kat is divine, Diego may end up only as some kind of prophet. These last few posts remind me of another little crazy notion that came to me over how this chapter might end (though I don't think Tom would do anything like that). The upper-circles of the Court such as the Headmaster (the evidence in "Changes" indicates that the Donlans, Eglamore, and Jones are not part of it), alarmed about the robots' actions on the cruise ship, and what else the robots might do because of this "Creator Kat" business, decide to expel Kat in the hopes that it would short-circuit the robot religion and make it no further trouble. (Though Kat's such a major character that there's no way Tom would do this.) As the robots watch a dejected Kat leave, the Headmaster turns to them and says with a cold sneer, "Where's your messiah now?" (Followed, possibly, by the move backfiring as the robots now look upon the Court leadership as a sort of Satan-figure or "Anti-Kat".) Remember that the Gunnerkrigg Court is " man's endeavour to become God". For all we know, the ascension of Creator-Kat may be in line with the Court's wishes. After all, Kat is the daughter of two important Court staff members, and the science/ether combination is already kind of a Donlan thing already. EDIT: Realised this has been brought up earlier in the thread. I should be quiet.  |
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Post by keef on Sept 25, 2014 19:52:26 GMT
So Diego is Old-Testament-God and Kat is Jesus. I was thinking a bit about this - have we ever seen the Cult of Kat talk about Diego? If the robots believe that only Kat is divine, Diego may end up only as some kind of prophet. The robots called him father. No capital F, but that's a limitation of ale and wenches. More creator than prophet. |
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 25, 2014 19:56:04 GMT
I was thinking a bit about this - have we ever seen the Cult of Kat talk about Diego? If the robots believe that only Kat is divine, Diego may end up only as some kind of prophet. The robots called him father. No capital F, but that's a limitation of ale and wenches. More creator than prophet. Personally I'm voting for a reference to a father/mother motif (since Robot already called Annie that). Not sure where Kat fits in that metaphor, though. EDIT: Realised this has been brought up earlier in the thread. I should be quiet. It's also in the OP, though it's certainly easy to miss stuff in that long rambling discussion haha. Oh, if you haven't seen, I made some userbars for people who support this theory, if you want one  |
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Post by November on Sept 25, 2014 20:08:12 GMT
I was thinking a bit about this - have we ever seen the Cult of Kat talk about Diego? If the robots believe that only Kat is divine, Diego may end up only as some kind of prophet. The robots called him father. No capital F, but that's a limitation of ale and wenches. More creator than prophet. Yeah, but for those robots he actually was a father figure. We don't know if this a part of the religion of modern day robots. |
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Post by keef on Sept 25, 2014 20:23:47 GMT
The robots called him father. No capital F, but that's a limitation of ale and wenches. More creator than prophet. Yeah, but for those robots he actually was a father figure. We don't know if this a part of the religion of modern day robots. |
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Post by November on Sept 25, 2014 21:43:38 GMT
Yeah, but for those robots he actually was a father figure. We don't know if this a part of the religion of modern day robots. Nice! However, I still get the feeling that this is non-religious. I feel that they just acknowledge him as "their creator" and respect him as such, while they look at Kat as something more, something along the lines of just "Creator". But then again, we don't know how they capitalize it, that's a limitation of Ale and Wenches. Now, if they call both Kat and Diego "Creator" in a divine sense then it might not be a Mother/Father thing or a God/Jesus thing. It may be that the Robots look at Kat as the reincarnation of Diego, or that both Diego and Kat are earthly embodiments of their god, just at different places in time. |
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Post by todd on Sept 25, 2014 22:28:02 GMT
(Followed, possibly, by the move backfiring as the robots now look upon the Court leadership as a sort of Satan-figure or "Anti-Kat".) Remember that the Gunnerkrigg Court is " man's endeavour to become God". For all we know, the ascension of Creator-Kat may be in line with the Court's wishes. After all, Kat is the daughter of two important Court staff members, and the science/ether combination is already kind of a Donlan thing already.[/quote] Maybe, but when it leads to the robots engaged in unauthorized activities like sticking an entire year's worth of students in Zimmy's world, I think that the Court administration is not going to be happy about that. They might see it as leading to the robots having far too much free will for their comfort. |
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Post by Brother_Spartacus on Sept 25, 2014 23:26:27 GMT
Imagine if this current arc ends with the court questioning Kat about the robo-cult, being very pleased when they see that Kat has a good chance to become a god, and setting up for Jonathan (the headmaster) to train her to be a leader in a similar way to the way Jones trained potential mediums to be politically neutral.
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Post by todd on Sept 25, 2014 23:33:48 GMT
Imagine if this current arc ends with the court questioning Kat about the robo-cult, being very pleased when they see that Kat has a good chance to become a god, and setting up for Jonathan (the headmaster) to train her to be a leader in a similar way to the way Jones trained potential mediums to be politically neutral. Though I suspect that Kat won't want to go anywhere near robots for a long time after this. Assuming that this chapter doesn't make more surprise revelations like yesterday's; I definitely hadn't expected Kat to be able to conjure up giant hands of smoke-or-cloud-or-whatever-it-is. |
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 26, 2014 1:04:41 GMT
Imagine if this current arc ends with the court questioning Kat about the robo-cult, being very pleased when they see that Kat has a good chance to become a god, and setting up for Jonathan (the headmaster) to train her to be a leader in a similar way to the way Jones trained potential mediums to be politically neutral. Now, this is interesting. Good parallel, if it happens. giant hands of smoke-or-cloud-or-whatever-it-is. giant hands of bio mechanical cancer |
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Post by November on Sept 27, 2014 3:56:58 GMT
I was thinking about the possibility of Annie getting a place in the Robomythology.
One possibility is that Annie may become the robots' guide (like Kat may become their God). Or, she would guide dead flesh-robots until the real Roboguide starts existing, which means she might influence how the Robots picture the Roboguide (like Kat may just be the basis of the Robot God). Still, from Jones we know that myth-made creatures can exist even before the believers entered the Ether, so it's thinkable that the guide is already there for the first flesh-robots (leaving Annie out of the equation completely).
As for why the robots haven't entered the Ether before (and I know this have been talked about before, I just want to share my exact viewpoints)...
Perhaps robots (both old and modern) are unable to enter the Ether because they're repairable. Even if the damage is irreparable, that doesn't change the concept of the robotic lifeform: If the damage could be repaired, the robot would still be alive. It consists of parts, which can be swapped out if damaged. If a robot is "dead", it is either powered off (which means it can be powered on again), or just broken, but humans can die even when all functions are in working condition. Once robots have bodies the souls can leave from, even if everything in the body is repaired, that's when they can enter the Ether.
The other possibility is that Etheric energy occurs naturally, but is drawn to organic creatures (like midichlorians perhaps?). Thus, entering the Ether requires being organic. We know that other creatures than humans have guides (we have Ketrak, for insects). However, shadow-people are only a thin layer of darkness, so they can't be "organic" in a traditional sense (and they're still guided to the Ether by Muut). They were organic before, though, so that may have something to do with it as well. Also, Muut have said that guides "do not deal in electrical appliances" which actually is a promising line for the very concept of flesh-bots.
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 3, 2014 21:44:54 GMT
I think the whole robot rescue thing will have one function only: so Kat will have a whole legion of robotic witnesses to her act of biomechanical genesis, what will probably catapult her etherical powers into godhood.  |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 10, 2014 8:09:29 GMT
IS IT HAPPENING?
In all seriousness, notice that Kat's face is not yet half-shattered. Interesting...perhaps something terrible will happen in the future?
I feel like a fool for never noticing, but the cracks on the right of Kat's face parallel the etheric slash Annie has on her left. Symbols!
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Post by Chancellor on Dec 10, 2014 8:10:04 GMT
In light of the developments of the Torn Sea, I think it's now time to consider that at the bottom of this page from Divine, Tom's comment simply reads "One day, Zimmy." Was he foreshadowing this, the apotheosis? |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 10, 2014 8:12:50 GMT
In light of the developments of the Torn Sea, I think it's now time to consider that at the bottom of this page from Divine, Tom's comment simply reads "One day, Zimmy." Was he foreshadowing this, the apotheosis? Many people, myself included, think he was referring to here (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=464, especially considering his comment on that page). |
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Post by Chancellor on Dec 10, 2014 8:23:44 GMT
Hmmmm.
Seeing as Zimmy's been rained on, and reunited with Gamma, it doesn't seem likely that the Angel's appearance is due to her powers. Ether being released from the whale's body is probable, but if the Angel's appearance is subjective to Zimmy...
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 10, 2014 19:22:52 GMT
*Flashback* Nearly a year ago: According to Coyote gods are created when human minds enter the ether upon death. Therefore for Kat to become a god a conscience that believes in Kat's godhood needs to die. Coyote says that this ability is exclusive to humans. If he is right remains to be seen. May be relevant: page 898. You see how easily she gave live And how easily she took it away. Speculation: Was ship taken to the ether? Did that trigger Kat's change? If so, who took it? Who decided they deal with former electrical appliances after all? Moving this here... Hmmm interesting...that would be an intriguing tie to the ether. Then the ship would have been sent to the ether, with its last vision of an avenging goddess. That could make a splash. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Dec 10, 2014 23:15:41 GMT
*Flashback* Nearly a year ago: May be relevant: page 898. Speculation: Was ship taken to the ether? Did that trigger Kat's change? If so, who took it? Who decided they deal with former electrical appliances after all? Moving this here... Hmmm interesting...that would be an intriguing tie to the ether. Then the ship would have been sent to the ether, with its last vision of an avenging goddess. That could make a splash. It isn't clear (yet) whether the Ship is actually dead/passed, but we should find that out shortly. And if it is dead, then I think it died before Kat vented on the Seraphs and wouldn't have seen her do that. But it is clear that the Ship believed Kat was a Creator, reinforced by that fact that the transformation was working before it was interrupted. Tom answered some questions in the past about what Kat looked like from Annie's perspective. For example... Q: If Zimmyvision sees Kat as a terrifying machine goddess, what does she look like in Ethervision (a la page 679)? A: She looks like a normal person that can't do stuff etherically. Annie has looked at her in the past and she just appears grey, like most other things. I thought Tom meant that Kat had no etheric talent (an etheric rock so to speak). But we know from Parley's example that some student's etheric abilities don't manifest until they're older. In Parley's case, falling in love with Smitty seemed to help trigger it. Maybe Kat was an etheric rock before, but the combination of the bots worship (maybe including the Ship going into the ether with his belief in Kat), Zimmy's etheric distortion, and Kat's love for Paz finally triggered etheric abilities. I don't think Kat is stuck in her angelic appearance, but maybe Kat will now look different to Annie though the ether. |
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Post by AluK on Dec 10, 2014 23:42:56 GMT
Speculation: Was ship taken to the ether? Did that trigger Kat's change? If so, who took it? Who decided they deal with former electrical appliances after all? Moving this here... Hmmm interesting...that would be an intriguing tie to the ether. Then the ship would have been sent to the ether, with its last vision of an avenging goddess. That could make a splash. One thing I was thinking about is that, maybe, Zimmy's powers work by manifestating the Ether and weaving it with reality. As long as her powers are active, the Ether stuff is just as real as reality and both are the same. If we go by that token, you don't really need anyone or anything to take whale-ship to the Ether because, in essentia, it was already there. |
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Post by Daedalus on Dec 10, 2014 23:47:38 GMT
Jelly Jellybean: it's funny that we keep quoting the same answers over and over. My opinion: the death of the ill-fated whale, and the release of the ether/phelebotinum contained therein, warped reality on a limited scale, allowing others to see Kat's angel form. I don't think it's permanent, but who knows. I wonder if Annie can see this now... Moving this here... Hmmm interesting...that would be an intriguing tie to the ether. Then the ship would have been sent to the ether, with its last vision of an avenging goddess. That could make a splash. One thing I was thinking about is that, maybe, Zimmy's powers work by manifestating the Ether and weaving it with reality. As long as her powers are active, the Ether stuff is just as real as reality and both are the same. If we go by that token, you don't really need anyone or anything to take whale-ship to the Ether because, in essentia, it was already there. I love this idea...But it would be such a shame to waste all that exposition with Guides and the RotD!
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