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Post by zimmyhoo on Jul 28, 2014 20:01:46 GMT
Oh. Little, then.  I guess the chapter that've ensued in my haitus didn't have much bearing upon Kat's development. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 29, 2014 2:29:49 GMT
Dunno where else to post this. I think I know what keeps the robots from thinking like living things. She will obviously move back in the golem direction, but even the golems don't think like people. Their minds are one single stationary, very complex, thought. Their reactions come from actions being processed through one thought. Living things have thoughts that are constantly dying and being replaced. Kat needs to make something similar to Conway's game out of the symbols, and the robots will have thoughts as fluid as living thoughts. She won't have to make t as complex as the golems, just capable of fluid thought. That is how to make robots into living beings. Personally, I think that the robots do think like humans, within a metaphorical rounding error. They're close enough to strong AI that I'd say they're truly sentient. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't computer-like behaviors that they maintain (like their absurd literalism and tendency to repeat certain phrases), but they're certainly miles away from the traditional one-direction golems. Of course, this fits with how Tom enjoys twisting mythology for new perspectives. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 29, 2014 3:02:57 GMT
Somebody with too much time on their hands inform me on what's gone down in this thread since I left. Don't worry, you haven't missed anything world-changing  Various wild-wildspec ideas have surfaced, which is great. Not much new from the comic itself to add, though. |
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Post by mglvna on Jul 29, 2014 21:49:02 GMT
Probably been brought up before, but on the subject of robot-thought being human enough to have an effect on the ether brings this formspring answer to mind. This theory is extremely likely to me, and in fact the only way I can see this set up going. The robots have the thought and the belief down, all Kat has to do is create living/dying 'bots for the others to spread the idea to, and we've got a real life angel on our hands. I'd like to figure out how the tic tocs are involved though, beyond the fact that they're almost certainly a future Kat creation. |
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Post by Brother_Spartacus on Jul 29, 2014 22:06:41 GMT
Personally, I think that the robots do think like humans, within a metaphorical rounding error. They're close enough to strong AI that I'd say they're truly sentient. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't computer-like behaviors that they maintain (like their absurd literalism and tendency to repeat certain phrases), but they're certainly miles away from the traditional one-direction golems. Of course, this fits with how Tom enjoys twisting mythology for new perspectives. The basis of my theory was that if robot death is being deactivated, then they can always be turned back on. The robots couldn't really enter the ether unless they had a way to quickly deteriorate beyond return like living things. Even if robots can already have souls they're worthless until they can go into the ether. The theory that I just came up with was probably still worthless though. Kat could of course make a robot brain out of her synthetic muscle that decayed in the manner of a human brain upon deactivation, then robots could die a true death. That makes my idea line up with Robot's comment from thread too... |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 29, 2014 23:35:00 GMT
Personally, I think that the robots do think like humans, within a metaphorical rounding error. They're close enough to strong AI that I'd say they're truly sentient. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't computer-like behaviors that they maintain (like their absurd literalism and tendency to repeat certain phrases), but they're certainly miles away from the traditional one-direction golems. Of course, this fits with how Tom enjoys twisting mythology for new perspectives. The basis of my theory was that if robot death is being deactivated, then they can always be turned back on. The robots couldn't really enter the ether unless they had a way to quickly deteriorate beyond return like living things. Even if robots can already have souls they're worthless until they can go into the ether. The theory that I just came up with was probably still worthless though. Kat could of course make a robot brain out of her synthetic muscle that decayed in the manner of a human brain upon deactivation, then robots could die a true death. That makes my idea line up with Robot's comment from thread too... Hmmmm interesting...so 'true' death here is 'damage past repair'. Interesting. I might add that to the OP somewhere. |
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Post by Chancellor on Jul 30, 2014 5:00:36 GMT
Which makes robot even more interesting. He's been taken out of the equation several times, losing or at least having his body damaged heavily several times. Been yanked by the other robot secret police, reborn more or less by his "Mother", Annie, was chopped into pieces and his parts turned into paperclips until being "resurrected" yet again with a new body provided by Kat. Then he got chopped up AGAIN, only to be fixed once more.
It almost makes me wonder if that's helped made the destruction of the bio-bot piece so significant to him. He's lost his body multiple times, but hasn't died, only to return in a new one. He sees the fact that the loss of a robot's body is not the end for it so long as the CPU remains as a evidence that robots cannot properly die, perhaps even casting questions of if there is an afterlife, or even the journey back to the Ether for his kind.
In making a machine, even a minuscule part of a robot that lives and dies like the organics that they live among, Kat isn't just upgrading the elegance of the robot form, in Robot's mind, she, as this divine Angel, is granting robotkind souls. When he heard Kat's "It was worth it" line, he didn't see the kind of meaningless destruction of nonliving metal that he'd suffered multiple times before, but a proper death; a sacrifice that serves its purpose as a step towards the realization of robotkind as something more than parts and pieces.
If robot belief doesn't already affect the Ether, perhaps a new generation of bio-bots WITH etheric connections may, with Robot instilling them with his dogma, provide the belief to create Machine Goddess Kat.
Just a wild thought.
Edit:
Though looking back, the really old robot Diego built mentioned that at least he and his generation considered deactivation as a suitable analog to death. Whether this opinion is shared by Robot's generation, I don't know, but perhaps one of the dissenting opinions he gave before being removed from his body was in regards to a disagreement with such.
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 30, 2014 8:58:01 GMT
Let us define 'true death' as 'gone beyond any hope of resurrection'. Then the older robot is dead but not truly dead, if you follow my reasoning. This distinction is only meaningful in regards to Kat, interestingly. No one else could return an 'untruly dead' robot like the predecessor robot or Robot himself from the 'not-truly-dead' (except perhaps the original architect Diego), but even she couldn't bring back the 'truly dead' KFTT (Kentucky Fried Tic-Toc).
Two other interesting adendums here. First, why would the robot whose head Jack smashed in not be 'truly dead' with this definition? I think it was confirmed somewhere even Kat couldn't resurrect him. Second (and predicated upon the first), I think (personally) the distinction between 'dying a true death' is fuzzy at the least - a disembodied wing without even a brain to control it can 'truly die' while other robots who are much more similar to humans can't? Odd.
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Post by warrl on Jul 30, 2014 17:18:44 GMT
First, why would the robot whose head Jack smashed in not be 'truly dead' with this definition? I think it was confirmed somewhere even Kat couldn't resurrect him. Perhaps Robot does not know of that death? |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 30, 2014 17:20:17 GMT
First, why would the robot whose head Jack smashed in not be 'truly dead' with this definition? I think it was confirmed somewhere even Kat couldn't resurrect him. Perhaps Robot does not know of that death? Perhaps. I assumed word would spread. But things like that have to happen occasionally (outside of the view of the comic) - that can't be the first time. And I doubt Robot's heard of *none* of them. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 31, 2014 1:27:14 GMT
zimmyhoo I think Dedalo regularly edits the OP to explain. Yeah, I do. Feel free to suggest any changes for content or readability. |
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Post by Brother_Spartacus on Aug 1, 2014 21:23:05 GMT
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 1, 2014 21:41:20 GMT
Somehow this looks more like Kimiko Ross/Kusanagi to me  |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 5, 2014 22:59:43 GMT
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 8, 2014 1:37:14 GMT
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Post by zimmyhoo on Aug 8, 2014 4:06:29 GMT
Pretty sure this is getting pretty high on the epileptic tree. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 8, 2014 10:33:04 GMT
Pretty sure this is getting pretty high on the epileptic tree. Yeah, but after all hubbub over Not-Zimmy/Jenny, I couldn't stop myself. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 25, 2014 17:39:10 GMT
What if they do abduct Paz and she gets badly hurt or dies? How would that effect everyone... especially Kat? Would everyone reject her and she slink off to the Robots and become a dangerous wildcard in the Court Vs Forest saga all mad-scientist like? Imagine kat all crying and the robots responding with "It was worth it." In a heartless robot manner. She died and we did nothing everything... (ominous music) |
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Post by Chancellor on Aug 27, 2014 6:48:06 GMT
Not even a "heartless" robot manner. Just in that almost childlike mimicry and lack of understanding.
Brrr.
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Post by bedinsis on Aug 27, 2014 14:44:05 GMT
Something that I haven't seen brought up before... how much does Kat's parents know of this?
The page where she said she intended to build a robot made them glance at each other, before being granted a key, and afterwards they said that "it was only a matter of time". Does this mean that they know of her eventual fate?
Building on this, her parents steadfastly refused to let her be part of the meeting with Coyote... does that mean Coyote could see what she will become? Of course, it could just be a case of them not wanting their daughter anywhere near the dangerous Ysengrin.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 27, 2014 23:38:19 GMT
Something that I haven't seen brought up before... how much does Kat's parents know of this? I believe they are unaware, in part because Kat herself is unaware. Kat says she doesn't know why the robots call her angel. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1142I assume that Kat realizing the robots are worshipping her will part of a big reveal in the court robot story arc. The page where she said she intended to build a robot made them glance at each other, before being granted a key, and afterwards they said that "it was only a matter of time". Does this mean that they know of her eventual fate? Where did they say "it was only a matter of time"? I know you are referring to www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=398 but I haven't found the quote on any of those pages. I remember reading something from Tom saying that the concern look was because they knew Kat was going to get into the mystery of the original court robots. My google-fu is weak and I can't find the reference. Anja discovered the original court robots but could never activate them. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=436Building on this, her parents steadfastly refused to let her be part of the meeting with Coyote... does that mean Coyote could see what she will become? Of course, it could just be a case of them not wanting their daughter anywhere near the dangerous Ysengrin.
Q: Would Kat's parents allow Kat to come into contact with beings like Coyote? A: No Q: Sorry, when I asked if Kat's parents would let Kat meet supernatural beings like Coyote, I probably used a bad example. Would they let her meet other etherical beings that weren't completely insane?A: If it wsn't dangerous then they wouldn't think it was a big dealAlso based on Tom's Formspring responses: Kat does not have any etheric abilities and does not appear angelic when viewed through the ether. So I now believe that Coyotte would not see Kat as anything other than a human girl with no etheric connection. Q: Could Kat use a blinker stone?
A: no
Q: Does Annie see Kat the same way in the ether or in the new page specific to Zimmy-vision?
A: No, Kat just looks like Kat to Annie. Q: Will we ever see what Kat looks like in the ether?A: She just looks like Kat
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Post by bedinsis on Aug 28, 2014 6:37:38 GMT
The page I was referring to was the one after which you linked.
Which did not contain that quote; I misremembered. So like a house of cards, my contribution to this thread fell apart on itself.
Apologies for wasted time.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 28, 2014 11:00:44 GMT
The page I was referring to was the one after which you linked. Which did not contain that quote; I misremembered. So like a house of cards, my contribution to this thread fell apart on itself. Apologies for wasted time. It is never wasted time! Tom uses a lot of foreshadowing and the result is a lot of speculation from readers. It means the readers are paying attention and are interested in where the story is going. Your post hit on areas that are swirling in my head too, but we haven't seen enough of Kat's story line to know how much her parents or the Court really knows about what we think is going on. I have been obsessing lately on whether Kat will really become a god or not... I initially aligned with the theory that Kat was destined for divine ascension. But now I align with the theory that Kat is just the inspiration or template that the robots are using to "create" their robot god. In other words, Kat is like the coyote in Coyote's big secret. The coyote was just looking for an easy meal and never knew, or could comprehend, that his lunch thought he was a god. The coyote had his meal and lived the rest of his normal coyote life. I think Kat is inspiring the robots, but she will live whatever life she will have and pass on like any other human. Divine inspiration, but not divine. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 29, 2014 13:04:17 GMT
So, we now have a very plausible Keter-style event about to happen, judging by today's comic...
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Post by eyemyself on Aug 29, 2014 14:06:08 GMT
So, we now have a very plausible Keter-style event about to happen, judging by today's comic... Everything does seem to be converging on forcing Kat to confront just how important she has become to the robots at the moment. Monday's page should be interesting. There are still some potential players we haven't seen on the ship yet: Jones, Bud, or Robot being present could all present yet another pivot for this train of events. |
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Post by Chancellor on Aug 29, 2014 19:55:17 GMT
So, we now have a very plausible Keter-style event about to happen, judging by today's comic... O-5 has ordered the shipboard Alpha Warheads into standby mode. Standing by. Now I'm worrying about a breakout of religious war between Robot's Orthodoxy, and whatever crazy heretical notions these Seraphs have been seduced by. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 29, 2014 20:03:18 GMT
Now I'm worrying about a breakout of religious war between Robot's Orthodoxy, and whatever crazy heretical notions these Seraphs have been seduced by. What do you mean? This may BE the Orthodoxy - remember, the Angel said "it was worth it" to sacrifice living things to achieve your goal. |
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Post by Chancellor on Aug 29, 2014 20:32:27 GMT
Yeesh, that's even worse. I'd like to think Robot wouldn't go this far, but damn you might be right.
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Post by todd on Aug 31, 2014 23:26:18 GMT
I'd thought for some time that the robot religion revolving around Kat could mean trouble, especially the way Robot's sermons were becoming (note that at the end of "Give and Take", Shadow2's looking uneasy about them) - and then the events in the current chapter - reaching the point where it's endangering the students. But when I thought about it some more, I wondered whether they showed how much the robots might need Kat as their new "creator" to change things.
I'd realized that the ship's fixation on Lindsey, which is its motivation for the current trouble, has an echo of Diego's fixation on Jeanne (and we know what came of that). Diego came up with the robots originally, and I shouldn't be surprised if the darkness in his nature has been lying upon his work, to bear poisoned fruit in the cruise ship's case. And maybe the robots' constant inept tone and neurotic behavior stems from Diego's weak guilt over his part in Jeanne's death - strong enough to trouble him on his deathbed, but weak enough to allow him to blame the other Founders rather than take the burden upon himself - troubling them down the generations.
So maybe the robots are in need of someone better than Diego to guide them - and Kat certainly fits that bill. If she could recognize that responsibility and accept it, it might do a lot of good for the Court robots - and certainly make such incidents as we're seeing on board that ship now far less likely in the future.
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 1, 2014 5:38:35 GMT
So maybe the robots are in need of someone better than Diego to guide them - and Kat certainly fits that bill. If she could recognize that responsibility and accept it, it might do a lot of good for the Court robots - and certainly make such incidents as we're seeing on board that ship now far less likely in the future. I see it as Diego being the creator, while Kat leads them in a new direction - better or worse to be seen. Good catch with the Lindsey/Jeanne parallel. Let's just hope that she can do the aforementioned good without damaging the fabric of reality using Zimmy's powers |
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I guess the chapter that've ensued in my haitus didn't have much bearing upon Kat's development. 
