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Post by cu on May 23, 2013 7:46:31 GMT
- And, lest we forget, the end of Divine; Gamma's quote "You can't always run from what scares ya" while removing Kat's Headband of Straightness - which seems to have catalyzed some more thinking on Kat's part, given that she has chosen not to replace the headband and switched back from skirts to pants. Welcome, and awesome catch there. At three pages per week (and that's an unbelievably steady rate Tom's able to produce, given the quality of the art and the writing) it is difficult to keep track of events that you would otherwise remember if this was a regular book comic and had read that page a few hours before. |
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Post by philman on May 23, 2013 8:15:58 GMT
Y'all keep forgetting , you cant touch dry ice with your bare hands cause it would cause instant frost bite to the contact areas. To eat it would cause horrible damage to your mouth and if you were able to fight through the blinding pain and swallow death is almost certain. You might as well due a shot of Hydrochloric Acid. Callback to 4 pages ago... But you can touch dry ice with bare hands, I do at work sometimes (although we're not supposed to). You just can't touch it for longer than a few seconds at a time or it starts to hurt and cause frost burns. It's like picking up something hot out of a pan, you can touch it for a few seconds, but not for much longer. All we have are(Most think Zimmy and Gamma are something, don't we? Then Paz now, I'll wait for tomorrow for Kat to make 4) who are gay/bi/whatever out of likeif you ask me. Do we think Zimmy and Gamma are something? I never thought of them as being gay at all, Renard has hinted that it is far more complicated than that.I think it is more like a mutual symbiosis, Zimmy cannot remain sane without Gamma, and Zimmy is Gamma's only friend in return (see how angry Zimmy got when Annie became friendly with Gamma). I think theirs is not a gay thing, but more of an essential friendship, Zimmy doesn't like Gamma because she is gay, but because it is the only way for her to stay sane. Gamma likes Zimmy, well we don't know yet but I am assuming there is something horrific in both their pasts that has pushed them together. Darn, I'm thinking about this waaaay to much... Thinking about it too much? You'll fit in perfectly! |
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Post by snipertom on May 23, 2013 8:48:52 GMT
I think this is part of why part of the audience may react negatively to another part of the audience suggesting a character is gay; while homophobia may be a component of such a reaction, it is likely also linked to the disconfort of having a character without an overt sexuality automatically assumed to be gay regardless of any evidence. Indeed, while assuming a character is heterosexual automatically without finding that unusual or wrong. |
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Post by Nnelg on May 23, 2013 8:51:12 GMT
I was under the impression that he was gently chiding Annie for inconveniencing Kat does not sound like "gentle chiding" to me.  Nnelg, you're denial is astounding Huh?  |
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Post by download on May 23, 2013 9:25:43 GMT
Nnelg, you're denial is astounding Huh? I think you thinking that the letter is just a nice letter between friends is astounding |
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gary
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Post by gary on May 23, 2013 9:53:14 GMT
Do we think Zimmy and Gamma are something? I never thought of them as being gay at all, Renard has hinted that it is far more complicated than that.I think it is more like a mutual symbiosis, Zimmy cannot remain sane without Gamma, and Zimmy is Gamma's only friend in return (see how angry Zimmy got when Annie became friendly with Gamma). I think theirs is not a gay thing, but more of an essential friendship, Zimmy doesn't like Gamma because she is gay, but because it is the only way for her to stay sane. Gamma likes Zimmy, well we don't know yet but I am assuming there is something horrific in both their pasts that has pushed them together. Annie says to Jack she think they're an item and Jack agreed. Plus Gamma flat out said she looks after ZImmy because she loves her and Zimmy's said Gamma is the only thing in the world she cares about. It's not a healthy romance but it is a romance and Tom has confirmed that in his formspring. |
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Post by monkmunk on May 23, 2013 10:30:38 GMT
Uh oh. I just remembered, this is a detail from the current treatise:  I have a bad feeling about friday guys.  |
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Post by arf on May 23, 2013 10:41:31 GMT
That feature from the treatise had also occurred to me, but kudos for putting it up first.
(Note the double break in the border, as well as the bar sinister. What does it mean? No hearts? No broken hearts?)
Also, Tom is at MCM Expo this weekend (after Friday). I suspect his desk might get deluged!
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Post by download on May 23, 2013 10:54:25 GMT
The heart could also mean something happens, then it comes down crashing and burning. It also mean she denies her hearts desires, but the gaps could mean that breaks.. It could mean anything, we're better off analysing it in hindsight  |
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Post by lordofpotatoes on May 23, 2013 11:06:43 GMT
The heart could also mean something happens, then it comes down crashing and burning. It also mean she denies her hearts desires, but the gaps could mean that breaks.. It could mean anything, we're better off analysing it in hindsight I agree, her heart is locked away. AKA what you said, denying her heart's desire. But how will that impact her reply? Is it possible for the heart to mean that and for Kat to accept her feelings. Maybe they'll keep their relationship secret, or she's confused and it turns out she's not in love with Paz, or she denies it and she is. So many possibilities of Tom screwing us over. |
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Post by download on May 23, 2013 11:29:49 GMT
Looking at the treatise again we've got two people together obscured by shadow. It could imply something hidden. As it's two people it could imply a hidden relationship, maybe.
This is really clutching at straws
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Post by Nnelg on May 23, 2013 14:34:12 GMT
I think you thinking that the letter is just a nice letter between friends is astounding Well, I did say that I wasn't sure of anything anymore. I'm basically just grasping at straws. |
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americonedream
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What are birds? We just don't know!
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Post by americonedream on May 23, 2013 16:18:30 GMT
I sort of took the heart to imply healing after her foundation was shaken up from the reveal of what an unbelievable mega ass butt Diego and the court was. The pink lines on the outside were like bandages and their incompleteness means she's still healing. But if they join together, she's healed but with a little damage left over. It just looks like they're strengthening her resolve.
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Post by philman on May 23, 2013 16:42:16 GMT
Do we think Zimmy and Gamma are something? I never thought of them as being gay at all, Renard has hinted that it is far more complicated than that.I think it is more like a mutual symbiosis, Zimmy cannot remain sane without Gamma, and Zimmy is Gamma's only friend in return (see how angry Zimmy got when Annie became friendly with Gamma). I think theirs is not a gay thing, but more of an essential friendship, Zimmy doesn't like Gamma because she is gay, but because it is the only way for her to stay sane. Gamma likes Zimmy, well we don't know yet but I am assuming there is something horrific in both their pasts that has pushed them together. Annie says to Jack she think they're an item and Jack agreed. Plus Gamma flat out said she looks after ZImmy because she loves her and Zimmy's said Gamma is the only thing in the world she cares about. It's not a healthy romance but it is a romance and Tom has confirmed that in his formspring. Fair enough, I must have missed that when I read through them, I always thought that they were in some sort of complicated mutual dependence, but not that it was that sort of relationship. |
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Post by legion on May 23, 2013 16:58:21 GMT
I think this is part of why part of the audience may react negatively to another part of the audience suggesting a character is gay; while homophobia may be a component of such a reaction, it is likely also linked to the disconfort of having a character without an overt sexuality automatically assumed to be gay regardless of any evidence. Indeed, while assuming a character is heterosexual automatically without finding that unusual or wrong. I did point out that the sexualization of not-overtly sexual characters was not a problem limited to the assumption of homosexuality, but included the assumption of heterosexuality as well. It may be that people react more violently against the former than against the latter, but I think that's in part because most people assume heterosexuality is the default (which, at least statistically, it is). |
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Post by huemood on May 23, 2013 17:36:31 GMT
Uh oh. I just remembered, this is a detail from the current treatise: That reminds me of two things: Anja's soft link eye symbol and (metaphorically, at least) Diego's ceramic hearts. I think the heart's aesthetics doesn't signify a heart breaking, so much as Kat eventually developing her own soft link in the shape of a heart, perhaps as a reference to Diego's [url=http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=880[/url]design theory[/url], after she cracks that human-proof cube. Assuming the computer she links to is a bio-hybrid robot, or say an android, inspired by Cityface (which wouldn't contradict Diego's work, since he seems to have drawn inspiration from human bones), then Kat's technically fulfilled Robot's prophecy), ushered a new realm of robot existence, and she could also be the wheel burrow electric socket angel thing in the treatise. So, that's a bit of a reaching theory I've been thinking about for a while... |
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Post by lordofpotatoes on May 23, 2013 18:10:55 GMT
Uh oh. I just remembered, this is a detail from the current treatise: That reminds me of two things: Anja's soft link eye symbol and (metaphorically, at least) Diego's ceramic hearts. I think the heart's aesthetics doesn't signify a heart breaking, so much as Kat eventually developing her own soft link in the shape of a heart, perhaps as a reference to Diego's [url=http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=880 [/url]design theory[/url], after she cracks that human-proof cube. Assuming the computer she links to is a bio-hybrid robot, or say an android, inspired by Cityface (which wouldn't contradict Diego's work, since he seems to have drawn inspiration from human bones), then Kat's technically fulfilled Robot's prophecy), ushered a new realm of robot existence, and she could also be the wheel burrow electric socket angel thing in the treatise. So, that's a bit of a reaching theory I've been thinking about for a while... [/quote] Welcome huemood! I'm just gonna pop by and remind you that there's a 'wild speculation' thread for these kinds of things. |
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Post by csj on May 23, 2013 19:13:15 GMT
I think part of the problem is really a tendency for the audience (and sometimes, newer interpretations of older works) to project sexuality in general in works that are devoid of it. 90% of comments during this discussion. |
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Post by GK Sierra on May 23, 2013 20:01:05 GMT
Indeed, while assuming a character is heterosexual automatically without finding that unusual or wrong. I did point out that the sexualization of not-overtly sexual characters was not a problem limited to the assumption of homosexuality, but included the assumption of heterosexuality as well. It may be that people react more violently against the former than against the latter, but I think that's in part because most people assume heterosexuality is the default (which, at least statistically, it is). Sometimes I wonder if most (say, 75%+) people are completely "straight", statistically, considering that sexuality exists on a spectrum rather than being a binary "this or that" chart. It would be pretty hard to sample for a statistical analysis when there are so many categories. |
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Post by November on May 23, 2013 21:47:12 GMT
I think that it's limiting to try to fit in sexuality in a spectrum, or a set of categories. Human beings are way too complicated for us to be assigned stats and characteristics like in video games.
Terms to describe peoples sexuality, like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual and pansexual are only that, terms to describe peoples sexuality. They're not rules, they're descriptions of the most obvious preferences, and you can't deny that it's pretty broad definitions. It's a simplification of how sexuality works. Or romance, for that matter. Some people are straight. Some people are gay. Some people live their whole life as heterosexuals, only to fall in love with another of the same sex after getting a family and three kids and a nice home in the suburbs. Some people are sexually attracted to the other sex, but falls in love with people of the same sex. Or vice versa. Some people never figure out what they are. People are strange.
However, these are fictional characters and not real humans. Tom knows lots of things and thinks about lots of things, but it's still just a cartoon and there's a story that's being told which holds priority. The characters are the way they are because that fits with the setting and the story that's being told. If it didn't, it would be a different story. Or it wouldn't work at all, and then it would be a bad story.
I don't think Zimmy and Gamma necessarily are sexually attracted to each other, so calling them an item or saying they're homosexual are a bit of a stretch. We don't really know much about Kat's sexuality yet, one thing we know is that she was worried about what other people thought, which you probably would be no matter what you are. Paz is a young teenage girl and she's probably still figuring things out. Annie is just weird in all ways and doesn't understand people at all, so we can't say we know anything about her either.
Even if Kat and Paz becomes a thing, which I really doubt, it still wouldn't be right to critisise Tom for focusing on a homosexual relationship, because it's not like the story is about gay people. All the couples we have in this comic yet are heterosexual. John/Margo, William/Janet, Smitty/Parley, Surma/Anthony, Anja/Donald, Jeanne and the green dude.. proabably more. If one of the people in the story just happens to be gay or bi, that would be one of the more normal things in the Court. Heck, we have a married couple of sentient crabs.
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Post by crater on May 23, 2013 21:52:16 GMT
Alot of you guys are implying Paz Loves Kat.
But IMO Paz doesn't really know Kat enough to "love" her, nor does Kat "love" Paz. If there was to be a relasionship there has to be some sort of sexuality between the party.
Now Kat and Ann, I can see having plutonic love.
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Post by Lightice on May 23, 2013 22:09:21 GMT
I don't think Zimmy and Gamma necessarily are sexually attracted to each other, so calling them an item or saying they're homosexual are a bit of a stretch. The way those two have been presented, they seem to go beyond the boundaries of any normal relationship. They are mindlinked 24/7. If there's a reason not to call their relationship romantic, it's because that would be a too mild term for it. They're a bit young for it to be actually sexual, whether it's going to go that way or not, but it seems doubtful that they could ever let any third party between them. It doesn't seem likely that they'd have any real options beyond asexuality and each other. Alot of you guys are implying Paz Loves Kat. But IMO Paz doesn't really know Kat enough to "love" her, nor does Kat "love" Paz. People don't need to really know anything about another person to be in love with them. It's a common source of problems, especially for young people. *sigh* Here I go speculating in the romantic relationships of fictional characters. Not what I usually do for fun, but I like talking about this comic, and this is probably going to be the main topic for the duration. |
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Post by karampurwala on May 23, 2013 22:23:39 GMT
I wonder what Kat is thinking. Well, I think that 4chan might be wrong. I mean, I don't think that Kat will be happy, since Paz had spread rumors about her earlier.
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Post by legion on May 23, 2013 22:25:36 GMT
Categories are always a simplification, everything is a spectrum. The reason we have categories is so we can talk about things —quite literally: at the phonological level, languages sounds are made of categories of sounds selected on a spectrum; say, the border between "b" and "p", is not a nice, universal, easy to pin point limit, it changes in different languages, with some language having even more than the two categories of English for this part of the spectrum (Shangainese has 3 consonants, contrasting two kinds of "p" in addition of b").
So yes, in theory sexuality is a spectrum, but in practice people who are attracted to the opposide gender more than they attracted to anything else (even if they are sometimes attracted to something else 10, 20 or even 30% of the time) usually identify as "straight". Since sexual identification is ultimately to the discretion of the person who identifies, there's not much arguing.
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Post by hargharg on May 23, 2013 23:22:22 GMT
I wonder what Kat is thinking. Well, I think that 4chan might be wrong. I mean, I don't think that Kat will be happy, since Paz had spread rumors about her earlier. No other comic springs to my mind from where you could get that idea. |
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Post by Nnelg on May 23, 2013 23:30:02 GMT
I think part of the problem is really a tendency for the audience (and sometimes, newer interpretations of older works) to project sexuality in general in works that are devoid of it. 90% of comments during this discussion. Which is why I'm actively avoiding it. |
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Post by arf on May 24, 2013 2:05:46 GMT
I think the heart's aesthetics doesn't signify a heart breaking, so much as Kat eventually developing her own soft link in the shape of a heart, perhaps as a reference to Diego's [url=http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=880 [/url]design theory[/url], after she cracks that human-proof cube.[/quote] I'd forgotten the 'Give and Take' chapter where Kat revives an old robot by 'fixing' its heart, only to break it again as per the robot's request. The symbol may refer to that rather than the current situation. Or possibly both...? (symbolism is like unto a Rorschach Test) |
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Post by download on May 24, 2013 2:49:51 GMT
Uh oh. I just remembered, this is a detail from the current treatise: That reminds me of two things: Anja's soft link eye symbol and (metaphorically, at least) Diego's ceramic hearts. I think the heart's aesthetics doesn't signify a heart breaking, so much as Kat eventually developing her own soft link in the shape of a heart, perhaps as a reference to Diego's [url=http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=880 [/url]design theory[/url], after she cracks that human-proof cube. Assuming the computer she links to is a bio-hybrid robot, or say an android, inspired by Cityface (which wouldn't contradict Diego's work, since he seems to have drawn inspiration from human bones), then Kat's technically fulfilled Robot's prophecy), ushered a new realm of robot existence, and she could also be the wheel burrow electric socket angel thing in the treatise. So, that's a bit of a reaching theory I've been thinking about for a while... [/quote] I think Kat is Anja's computer if that means anything |
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Post by impish on May 24, 2013 4:13:59 GMT
I think part of the problem is really a tendency for the audience (and sometimes, newer interpretations of older works) to project sexuality in general in works that are devoid of it. Except that this reaction is ALWAYS brought up when there is any mention of queerness, however canonical or non- (I mean, look at this page, and how there are still people trying to interpret this as anything else; how all the buildup to this was dismissed as 'shippers being delusional!' even though we now know quite clearly that all the buildup was there and intentional, and the ones fooling themselves were the ones who were dismissing it). Or Zimmy and Gamma's relationship, towards which the same people who will insist on adherence to canon in trying to cherrypick in hetero themes will magically ignore the Word Of God. And the reverse? Never - unless, as in situations like this, people are already arguing queerness is being 'projected into' it and it's brought up as a counterpoint. I mean, take Annie - she was listed by someone a couple pages back as 'straight', even though she hasn't canonically expressed actual interest in ANYONE. Characters are always expected to be 'proven' queer, and those who don't want to see them as gay will not actually accept anything, no matter how blatant, and will continually dismiss and handwave even the most obvious undeniable facts, and move the goalposts every time. Projecting in queer relationships is different, because despite all that's said about 'so many webcomics with lesbians', there are really, really few that aren't written as cheesecake, and even then compared to the number of het romances out there, it's negligible. I didn't have any lesbian couples in any media i was aware of / had access to for most of my life, whereas I was being told het narratives before I could even speak. And frankly, even in works that have no canonical queer characters, there actually is a long, incredibly complicated history of subtext, which is not 'wishful thinking', it's often something intentionally included. Take Garak from DS9 - it's easy to dismiss the homoerotic themes as imagined, but the actor has been quoted saying he did intentionally add them in and play them up. If you don't care, fine. If you don't want to see it, you can have your pick of the vast cornucopia of works out there that have none. But the pompous, boneheaded, and completely self-absorbed arrogance in sneering at 'shippers' isn't clever or witty or insightful, just insipid. And pretending that the projection of sexuality*/romance into works is all equivalent and treated the same no matter the orientation is patently absurd, and frankly insultingly inaccurate, like calling night day right to my face. (*At least, in terms of sexual orientation. it's actually super, super refreshing to have a work focusing on these teenage girls, some in relationships, some queer, who're not creepily hypersexualized. Kudos again to Tom.) |
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Post by TBeholder on May 24, 2013 4:25:45 GMT
Just to poke fun at the return of chibisoma.The new wild guess: It's not really a love letter. Just the girlish squeeing, hearts and ponies. Paz tends to swing between "awkward" and "carried away", after all. However, between Kat knowing about Court robots and her previous little chat with Paz, she assumed it was, and will continue to do so. |
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