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Post by arucard on Sept 15, 2010 22:49:09 GMT
"Crows, and especially ravens, often feature in European legends or mythology as portents or harbingers of doom or death, because of their dark plumage, unnerving calls, and tendency to eat carrion (including those of humans). They are commonly thought to circle above scenes of death such as battles." Yes, they are often harbingers of death but why would Tom put one in this scene? We don't know who/what the wolf/thing is but we're not assuming its a symbol of something... we assume its something we just haven't heard of yet. Why would the bird be different? I get your point of view, and there's really no evidence to the crow/raven being a death omen... What makes me believe in that is the way the bird is 'attached' to Steadman and the fact that there were no significant crows in the story so far, making it more likely to be in there due to its symbolism... But it's all just wild guessing from my part. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 22:56:22 GMT
Well, this began with the idea that the girls are being exposed to sex and violence in the same scene and I don't consider this violent.
I can see Tom using symbolism for our sakes but the bird would still be an actual character and I don't see Parley thinking this is violent just because of a bird. I definitely don't see Annie thinking that.
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Post by cu on Sept 15, 2010 23:03:17 GMT
The bird is the symbol of a new character that hasn't been introduced yet, but we can anticipate was part of the Court Founder Fathers: the Airforceman.
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Post by tyler on Sept 15, 2010 23:06:27 GMT
Jeanne dies. Why WOULDN'T the psychic reading/message include death imagery? --_--
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 23:33:25 GMT
Yes, but would the people in the story realize there is death imagery?
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Post by arucard on Sept 15, 2010 23:44:26 GMT
Well, this began with the idea that the girls are being exposed to sex and violence in the same scene and I don't consider this violent. I can see Tom using symbolism for our sakes but the bird would still be an actual character and I don't see Parley thinking this is violent just because of a bird. I definitely don't see Annie thinking that. Yeah, I don't agree to much with that whole 'sex and violence' idea either... I think they're just seeing Jeanne's story... Like watching a movie. They're not experiencing her feelings or anything. |
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Post by Goatmon on Sept 15, 2010 23:45:11 GMT
I interpreted this page a bit differently from other posters here - I think the angry Young and Steadman and Ysengrin(?) are not angry at the love between Jeanne and the elf guy. I think the embrace in the middle surround by angry-looking humans and animals is a representation of the rising tensions going on around them, while they are somewhat oblivious due to the fact they are in love. The guys around Jeanne and Mr Elf aren't angry with them, but are fighting amongst each other. I also think the Coyote-like symbol just peeking in the corner there is representing the fact that Coyote's separation of the Court and the Forest is approaching. Of course I could be way off the mark here... I think this is pretty solid. We already know Diego definitely has a problem with those two going at it, but otherwise I think they are irrelevant to the business of the Forest and Court, and their respective Champions - Ysengrin and Sir Young. I am VERY curious to see where this is going. Assuming Tom doesn't pull another Parley on us this time.  |
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 16, 2010 2:59:12 GMT
Yes, they are often harbingers of death but why would Tom put one in this scene? We don't know who/what the wolf/thing is but we're not assuming its a symbol of something... we assume its something we just haven't heard of yet. Why would the bird be different? I totally saw the wolf/thing as symbolic of the conflict between the Court and the forest. Tom regularly uses symbolic imagery in Gunnerkrigg Court, and I don't see why it would be unusual for him to do so on this page, especially when the imagery works so well and he's clearly using symbolism throughout the page. I'd just be very surprised if Tom put a symbol of death in the middle of this collection of actual beings. If the bird is here, the bird is part of the story. Tom regularly uses people and creatures that are not actually characters to show what has happened in the Court's past, and it wouldn't be that odd if some of them had symbolic meanings apart from, "There were creatures who roughly looked like this." Yes, but would the people in the story realize there is death imagery? Symbolism tends to be for the benefit of the reader, not the characters. The imagery is there to show us what Parley is learning. Of course, she might not fully understand it, but that still wouldn't negate its potency as symbolic imagery for the reader. EDIT: I like mishmash's interpretation, too. Just throwing that out there. Yeah, I don't agree to much with that whole 'sex and violence' idea either... I think they're just seeing Jeanne's story... Like watching a movie. They're not experiencing her feelings or anything. I think it would be a much more potent experience if they were experiencing her emotions and memories first-hand, but I think it will only be to the extent that they can feel the joy she had from being in love and the loss she felt at the division of the Court and her eventual death. Some other emotions and experiences will be mixed in, but those will be the main ones. EDIT: And, to reiterate, I don't personally buy into the idea that the girls are experiencing complete sexual encounters while simultaneously witnessing graphic violence; I just said that this page could be interpreted that way, possibly by authors of dirty fanfiction. If we're looking for a real species, I'd guess it's a carrion crow. The beak fits, it has the same black eyes as in the picture (unlike the Jackdaw's white irises), and it's the most common crow in Britain. It's also a pretty neat bird, though my favorite corvid is the northern raven. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Sept 16, 2010 3:22:26 GMT
AHHHH EVERYONE IS WATCHING THEM HAVE SEX! That would suck. And it's a good thing Parley is seeing this instead of Annie, or she'd be all like "I'm 12 and what is this" Darn it, I came in here to point that out. It's totally Riff. I guess one of his many Dimensional Flux Agitator adventures landed him in the Dimension of Gunnerkrigg. The DoG. An oddly appropriate acronym for this dimension. Although "Dimension of Ether" would also work. I don't think "E"s been taken yet. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 16, 2010 6:25:10 GMT
Sir Young and Ysengrin might actually be/have been disapproving of the relationship between Jeanne and Green. It's reasonable to think that in the early days everyone co-mingled more or less; the schism between Court and Forest as we now know it likely started with competing hierarchies as well as different approaches to the etherial tenet. The animals show dominance by posturing and bared teeth and likely thought the Court's power relationships to be incomprehensible and meaningless. Likewise the Court probably thought of anyone resisting the order they were trying to create as anarchists and traitors. Assuming we're right to speculate that Jeanne was a guard of the Court and her lover sided with those rebelling against it, Jeanne would have been caught directly in the middle. Neither Ysengrin nor Young would've approved of her. She would've been figuratively trapped between both sides, and with Diego's help that metaphor became reality. As such, freeing Jeanne is an important symbolic part in the story of any future mediation/reconciliation between the Forest and Court. She is a literal barrier to that sort of thing. I expect that in this comic Young and Ysengrin symbolize the rush of story/images overwhelming George more than anything else, though. Also the color scheme of the whatzit in the lower right hand corner reminds me much of the Great Spirit, with the blue triangles and the yellow, red, and black concentric circles. I wonder if in this case it means the etherium where Jeanne is stuck? [edit] Whoops Serendipity already said the first part of that but I somehow missed it when trying to catch up on the thread. Also it is confirmed via Formspring that the animals on this page are "just animals" so the wolf isn't Ysengrin. [/edit] |
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nadir
New Member
SPROING!
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Post by nadir on Sept 16, 2010 9:21:58 GMT
Hm. I just noticed something that interested me. In comic 490, Coyote says he found Renard and Ysengrin somewhere, THEN the three of them went to the Court together. Next, check out comic 491, as mentioned by others. Check out what Coyote is saying. "This was to be a place of great power, a place of union!" Coyote is shown to have his own intentions for the place, and Renard and Ysengrin likely agreed. "But all we found was a terrible squabble!" But they were soon unhappy because of conflict between the Court and forest, specifically, the rising tension caused by Jeanne's relationship. Also note that Coyote says "This was to be a place of great power, a place of union!" in a way that implies that the conflict wasn't merely a squabble, but an obstacle for his intentions, since he wanted union and who knows what else. "The humans sought to tame the powerful creatures!" This could mean how the court wants an advantage, for lack of a better term, over the forest. Maybe by using the word "tame", the court saw the forest creatures merely as animals, so they probably won't tolerate romance between a forest creature and a human. Though Coyote pointed this out before the divide, his words are still evident in the court doing something to the river and the building of the bridge on the court's terms, as a way for the court to "tame" the forest, since they controlled the terms on which the bridge was built. EDIT: Also, reply #100. Yay. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 16, 2010 11:29:01 GMT
I agree with mishmash too and we do agree its probably a crow. (Unless its just a generic bird Tom created) As for the potential dirty fanfic... I'll pass!  ;D The girls are at an age when they're just figuring out things and for them to be experiencing more than the ought at this age.... its like spoilers... That's just my opinion, nothing debate-worthy. I do like the positioning on the page. The wolf vs coyote (duality of nature), Parley vs Court (duality of man, I suppose), with the swirl of love vs hate vs ambition in the middle. The founders of the court were pretty screwed up... first they run away from the world, then they run away from the forest and brick themselves in. |
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Post by arucard on Sept 16, 2010 11:53:04 GMT
Symbolism tends to be for the benefit of the reader, not the characters. The imagery is there to show us what Parley is learning. That's pretty much what I think too, though I was having a hard time trying to express it (English is hard... ). I believe that this whole page shows us a kind of summed up version of all Parley is learning. That is why the symbolism would be present here... It doesn't mean that's exactly what she saw, but it's a way of helping us get the whole picture. If we're looking for a real species, I'd guess it's a carrion crow. The beak fits, it has the same black eyes as in the picture (unlike the Jackdaw's white irises), and it's the most common crow in Britain. It's also a pretty neat bird, though my favorite corvid is the northern raven. Since I already quoted you anyway, my favorite Corvidae would be the brazilian Gralha-Picaça. ;D |
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Post by jayne on Sept 16, 2010 12:48:17 GMT
Symbolism tends to be for the benefit of the reader, not the characters. The imagery is there to show us what Parley is learning. That's pretty much what I think too, though I was having a hard time trying to express it (English is hard... ). I believe that this whole page shows us a kind of summed up version of all Parley is learning. That is why the symbolism would be present here... It doesn't mean that's exactly what she saw, but it's a way of helping us get the whole picture. No worries, your English is better than my Portuguese!  via Google Translate: Isso é uma ave bonita! |
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 16, 2010 14:19:49 GMT
...with eyes beginning at the ears? Besides, if someone in that generation was wearing sunglasses, wouldn't it be Steadman? No, why? Bet the bird is the etheric projection of a tic-toc. ;D Or, this bird noticed something shiny and intervened, and that's why Parley is out of sync now. |
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Post by beatfox on Sept 16, 2010 19:19:15 GMT
Also it is confirmed via Formspring that the animals on this page are "just animals" so the wolf isn't Ysengrin. I was initially convinced it was Ysengrin until I realized that it had red eyes - I don't think Ys has ever been depicted with anything other than green eyes (correct me if I'm wrong). Anyhow, thanks for pointing out the Formspring confirmation! |
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Post by AluK on Sept 16, 2010 19:40:00 GMT
We'd actually say it like: "Bonito este pássaro/passarinho!", "That's a beautiful bird/lil' bird!" literally - or "Belo pássaro!", literally "beautiful bird!". We tend not to use "ave" outside the scientific circle. We omit a lot of stuff like articles, demonstrative pronouns, etc, too. ;D |
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Post by jayne on Sept 16, 2010 19:57:39 GMT
We'd actually say it like: "Bonito este pássaro/passarinho!", "That's a beautiful bird/lil' bird!" literally - or "Belo pássaro!", literally "beautiful bird!". We tend not to use "ave" outside the scientific circle. We omit a lot of stuff like articles, demonstrative pronouns, etc, too. ;D I was going to say "Que Bonita" but decided to look it up. I probably should have stuck with that! |
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Post by AluK on Sept 16, 2010 20:15:17 GMT
I was going to say "Que Bonita" but decided to look it up. I probably should have stuck with that! Oh, that would've worked, too. That's one of the things I love about Portuguese, you can say the same thing in a thousand different ways - that does not make it any easier for those trying to learn it, though |
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Post by arucard on Sept 16, 2010 21:28:15 GMT
I was going to say "Que Bonita" but decided to look it up. I probably should have stuck with that! Oh, that would've worked, too. That's one of the things I love about Portuguese, you can say the same thing in a thousand different ways - that does not make it any easier for those trying to learn it, though Ha, nice to see I'm not the only brazilian here! And yeah, I'm pretty sure portuguese would be one of the hardest languages for people from other countries to learn... Too much grammar nitpicking. Well, that's the end of my whole awesome theory... |
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Post by legion on Sept 16, 2010 21:43:19 GMT
And yeah, I'm pretty sure portuguese would be one of the hardest languages for people from other countries to learn... Too much grammar nitpicking. I don't think it would seem particularily difficult to someone whose first language is French or Spanish. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 16, 2010 22:06:00 GMT
I speak English, Spanish (somewhat well) and Sign Language. I've been trying to learn French but I keep slipping back into Spanish... I mean to say "quelle" but it comes out "como" or "que"
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 16, 2010 22:14:58 GMT
I speak English, Spanish, some German, and some French. Portuguese, however, usually stumps me, though I can usually identify it as Portuguese. ...with eyes beginning at the ears? With a shadow that begins at his temple. If you look closely, the black ends before it reaches his hair. |
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shard
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by shard on Sept 17, 2010 1:22:42 GMT
I joined simply to say this:
The orange haired guy is totally Dave Strider.
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Post by arucard on Sept 17, 2010 3:18:40 GMT
And yeah, I'm pretty sure portuguese would be one of the hardest languages for people from other countries to learn... Too much grammar nitpicking. I don't think it would seem particularily difficult to someone whose first language is French or Spanish. Haha, yeah, though I still think portuguese is harder than spanish... Regarding french I would have no idea, but I always thought it would be pretty hard to learn. |
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Post by legion on Sept 17, 2010 13:42:49 GMT
French has the advantage of actually being closer in pronounciation to Portuguese than Spanish is. Both French and Portuguese have nasal vowels, a "guttural" R sound, "ch" and "j" are pronounced the same in both…
By the way, I think Brasilian Portuguese with a Carioca accent is one of the 5 sexiest things on Earth (even before Spanish with a Rioplatense accent).
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Post by warrl on Sept 21, 2010 2:14:28 GMT
French has the advantage of actually being closer in pronounciation to Portuguese than Spanish is. Both French and Portuguese have nasal vowels, a "guttural" R sound, "ch" and "j" are pronounced the same in both… I've heard that if you read Spanish as if you are French and have never heard Spanish spoken at all, you'll be close enough to Portuguese to get by for most purposes - although not close enough to make any Portuguese-speaker think you speak Portuguese. |
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