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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 18:39:48 GMT
Yeah but they're not experiencing sex as if they're participating. Jeanne is the one sharing the story and how much of the story she wants to share is up to her. And who can say whether or not she wants to share a lot? Hmmm... this assumes Jeanne has no control of what she's sharing, and that is just a complete copy of her memory being placed inside Annie and Parley's mind. I don't think I agree with that. Actually, it doesn't assume that. I was just saying that it is possible that if Jeanne is including a memory of a sexual encounter, depending on how detailed the memory is, it is possible that the two girls are experiencing something akin to sex. I'm not saying that this is the way I personally read this page. I actually interpret this page as Jeanne giving them an impression of the strong emotional connection she felt with Green Guy, and this impression probably focused on the emotional aspect. It also shows that her love for Green Guy is definitely the dominant emotion in her life, as shown by the fact that the two of them are the dominant aspect of this page and are not overshadowed by the conflict between the forest and the court (represented by the dog), her peers' betrayal (represented by Young), and her own violent end (the crow and Steadman). That said, the fact that Jeanne and her beau are naked and wrapped in each other's arms implies that the girls are experiencing some fairly tactile memories, as well, though this doesn't necessarily mean that these memories are extremely detailed. And... thus far, this doesn't seem to be very violent anyway. There's a vicious, snarling dog-like beast and a symbolic representation of her death, which was not peaceful. These images likely represent some unpleasant and somewhat violent memories that Jeanne is imparting on them. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 15, 2010 18:47:02 GMT
I'm not sure what to read into it yet, if anything, but I find it interesting that the Eye is in the frame, not broken out of it like Parley is. I guess that to mean that it has something to do with the time of her memory, not the present situation (though that would be quite interesting).
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unrequited
Junior Member
Tormentor of the Heart, close friend of the Spleen
Posts: 74
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Post by unrequited on Sept 15, 2010 18:53:07 GMT
Are we sure that's a wolf, and not a fox? Or perhaps a Gytrash or Lean Dog?
Beautiful artwork as always, Tom.
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Post by Casey on Sept 15, 2010 18:59:44 GMT
The bridge was created after Jeanne died because the Annan waters became unpassable. If Jeanne can pass into the forest, and Greenguy can come to the court, there is no divide yet. Coyote may try to trick people, but he doesn't lie. If he says he created the divide, then he did it. Correct. And furthermore, according to Coyote, the making of the bridge didn't happen until long after "the Court did something" to the Annan Waters. I suspect that it was well after Young and Diego's lifetimes that anything whatsoever transpired between the Court and the Wood. |
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 19:09:03 GMT
The bridge was created after Jeanne died because the Annan waters became unpassable. If Jeanne can pass into the forest, and Greenguy can come to the court, there is no divide yet. Coyote may try to trick people, but he doesn't lie. If he says he created the divide, then he did it. Correct. And furthermore, according to Coyote, the making of the bridge didn't happen until long after "the Court did something" to the Annan Waters. I suspect that it was well after Young and Diego's lifetimes that anything whatsoever transpired between the Court and the Wood. I always thought that the something the Court did was sacrifice Jeanne to make the waters impassable, and the bridge's construction began fairly soon after. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 19:12:48 GMT
There's a vicious, snarling dog-like beast and a symbolic representation of her death, which was not peaceful. These images likely represent some unpleasant and somewhat violent memories that Jeanne is imparting on them. I don't see the symbolic representation of her death in this. We know its coming but I don't see anything representing that in this scene. As for the rest, its all political bickering, even the snarling dog/thing. (Canine political bickering) If all this was going on while you were... in the middle of something... would that have any effect on you? Jeanne looks happy, not bothered by external events. BUT THEN, why would Parley be upset... she's 'seeing' more during this event than Jeanne was feeling at the time. Jeanne was happy, but this is a vision in hindsight.... |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 19:25:28 GMT
Is Parley crying?
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Post by Casey on Sept 15, 2010 19:39:39 GMT
I always thought that the something the Court did was sacrifice Jeanne to make the waters impassable, and the bridge's construction began fairly soon after. . The construction of the bridge was the Court's idea, to facilitate the humans becoming Forest creatures and leaving the Court. That wouldn't have happened in Diego and Young's lifetimes. Even if you don't consider that evidence, I think by sentence structure and context Coyote's statement implies it was a long time. |
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Post by Casey on Sept 15, 2010 19:41:04 GMT
She looks upset, but those white dots you see are the cheek reflection mark thingies that people get when they're in the ether (ref: any of Annie's ventures in the ether... the first page of Residential, just off the top of my head). |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 19:45:13 GMT
I always thought that the something the Court did was sacrifice Jeanne to make the waters impassable, and the bridge's construction began fairly soon after. . The construction of the bridge was the Court's idea, to facilitate the humans becoming Forest creatures and leaving the Court. That wouldn't have happened in Diego and Young's lifetimes. Even if you don't consider that evidence, I think by sentence structure and context Coyote's statement implies it was a long time. Yes, I think "eventually" is the key word... and when a timeless being like Coyote says, 'eventually', it's probably a very long time. I'm not sure how long but it does imply some time passed between the divide and the bridge. |
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 20:21:52 GMT
The relevant page. The construction of the bridge was the Court's idea, to facilitate the humans becoming Forest creatures and leaving the Court. That wouldn't have happened in Diego and Young's lifetimes. Even if you don't consider that evidence, I think by sentence structure and context Coyote's statement implies it was a long time. I disagree. I interpreted that as Coyote saying that the humans used the impassability of the Annan waters as leverage to negotiate the building of a bridge on their terms. In fact, it seemed like one of the reasons they wanted to make the water impassable was to control who can cross (through the bridge). I saw the "eventually" as indicating that there was a lot of bickering over the building of the bridge, but the humans managed to build it on their own terms thanks to the leverage they had gained. This bickering did not necessarily last more than a lifetime, or even more than a few months. That said, you do make some good points about whether or not the heads of the Court would allow humans to go over to the forest, though they might allow it if it meant attracting more people of the forest to the Court. |
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 20:32:46 GMT
I don't see the symbolic representation of her death in this. We know its coming but I don't see anything representing that in this scene. The crow traditionally symbolizes death. There is a crow looking over the shoulder of the man who kills her, with both of them draped in shadow. He's even wearing the cape he wore when he killed her. That seems like a pretty clear way to show that the memories of her death are transferring to Parley and Annie. |
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Post by sycasey on Sept 15, 2010 20:35:58 GMT
My interpretation of this page is fairly literal:
The humans are Young and Steadman. The animals are simply depictions of Forest creatures who served much the same function in their realm, at that time.
Young was the Court's protector. The Forest also had a protector, which was some wolf guy (not necessarily Ysengrin, though I'm not sure how much it matters). Steadman was the Court's lookout and chief archer; the bird served the same purpose for the Forest (not literally an archer, but with similar traits: perched high in the air, sharp vision, etc.). This page is showing both sides' disapproval of the inter-species relationship.
The sun in the lower right corner is Coyote, watching everything from the vantage point of the heavens. Unlike the others, he simply observes and does not pass judgment.
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 20:37:09 GMT
I don't see the symbolic representation of her death in this. We know its coming but I don't see anything representing that in this scene. The crow traditionally symbolizes death. There is a crow looking over the shoulder of the man who kills her, with both of them draped in shadow. He's even wearing the cape he wore when he killed her. That seems like a pretty clear way to show that the memories of her death are transferring to Parley and Annie.  Wrong beak, and Tom know birds. For some reason, not supported by any logic mind you, I feel like that bird becomes Steadman.... their posture mirrors each other.  or it might be the bird is standing next to Steadman, but that's a big bird in that case. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 20:42:28 GMT
Man, I wish there was a spoilers page... I'd love to hear your ideas about a few things I dare not mention.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 20:44:22 GMT
My interpretation of this page is fairly literal: The humans are Young and Steadman. The animals are simply depictions of Forest creatures who served much the same function in their realm, at that time. Young was the Court's protector. The Forest also had a protector, which was some wolf guy (not necessarily Ysengrin, though I'm not sure how much it matters). Steadman was the Court's lookout and chief archer; the bird served the same purpose for the Forest (not literally an archer, but with similar traits: perched high in the air, sharp vision, etc.). This page is showing both sides' disapproval of the inter-species relationship. The sun in the lower right corner is Coyote, watching everything from the vantage point of the heavens. Unlike the others, he simply observes and does not pass judgment. I think it's a mistake to read this too literally. Tom's use of images to show memories flooding Parley's mind seems to imply that symbolism is important here. Besides that, your interpretation attributes traits we have not seen to the characters. Steadman, for example, was an archer, but no one in the comic has ever claimed he was a lookout. And the idea of Coyote being an impartial observer goes against everything we know about his involvement. Your conclusion that it shows both sides' disapproval for inter-species romance is interesting, though. |
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Post by sycasey on Sept 15, 2010 20:49:39 GMT
I think it's a mistake to read this too literally. Tom's use of images to show memories flooding Parley's mind seems to imply that symbolism is important here. Besides that, your interpretation attributes traits we have not seen to the characters. Steadman, for example, was an archer, but no one in the comic has ever claimed he was a lookout. And the idea of Coyote being an impartial observer goes against everything we know about his involvement. Your conclusion that it shows both sides' disapproval for inter-species romance is interesting, though. A literal interpretation doesn't necessarily rule out symbolism, of course. It could be that Tom is depicting images of characters who literally existed in the Court and Wood at the time, but they are also symbols for certain ideas/concepts that Tom wants to get across. And yes, I am extrapolating from Steadman's role as an archer to think he probably also served as a lookout, or at the very least that he often sat on a high, far-off perch. It don't think it's a terribly wild guess, though. |
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Post by sycasey on Sept 15, 2010 20:53:49 GMT
And the idea of Coyote being an impartial observer goes against everything we know about his involvement. I don't mean that Coyote always only observes and never gets involved, only that based on his comments and demeanor, he doesn't seem to care much about moral judgments. He does things for his own pleasure, not because he finds them "right" or "wrong" in a moral sense. Thus, he does not see Jeanne's relationship with the Green Guy as "bad" like the others do, though he also probably recognizes that this could touch off a major conflict. |
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 15, 2010 20:56:05 GMT
All Obligatory "awwww". Also: it looks like either Parley's out of sync now, or more likely her brain is quite cooked for today. She wasn't through two long and awful sessions of Zimmyscape, after all. Mystery crow is mysterious, It may be the bird hit with Annie's blinker. It remains in weak contact due to Jeanne's intervention and is still very upset about all this. Or, worse, it was knocked down enough to end up vrilling into the water. I'm pretty sure mystery man is Steadman the Archer. Slightly different ears. And i doubt he would have sunglasses. Steadman delivered just a few lines so far, but he kinda sounds like someone in the darker shades of amorality.  Steadman in the record seems detached from the little "what the hell we're doing" part via fascination by both their grand plan and the personal challenge it involved. I am actually a Steadman fangirl. I don't know why I like him so much but he seems so cool. Because he's... almost iconic image of a bishounen?  Also, since the mind dump seems to be happening rather quickly and includes memories of conflict and violence, the girls might go on forever associate good sex with violence. Poor girl would... wait. Do we still discuss Parley?  Wrong beak, and Tom know birds. Yes, but there's more to Corvidae than this one... |
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 20:57:04 GMT
Wrong beak, and Tom know birds. For some reason, not supported by any logic mind you, I feel like that bird becomes Steadman.... their posture mirrors each other. or it might be the bird is standing next to Steadman, but that's a big bird in that case. There are around 40 species in the genus Corvus, and many have different beak shapes, some of which might roughly fit the beak of the bird in this page. To me, rough fits are fine since the bird's body is clearly in "flowy etheric mode". |
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 15, 2010 21:07:59 GMT
Slightly different ears. And i doubt he would have sunglasses. Besides, if someone in that generation was wearing sunglasses, wouldn't it be Steadman? Poor girl would... wait. Do we still discuss Parley? Well, it's not necessarily a major change. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 21:14:27 GMT
Wrong beak, and Tom know birds. For some reason, not supported by any logic mind you, I feel like that bird becomes Steadman.... their posture mirrors each other. or it might be the bird is standing next to Steadman, but that's a big bird in that case. There are around 40 species in the genus Corvus, and many have different beak shapes, some of which might roughly fit the beak of the bird in this page. To me, rough fits are fine since the bird's body is clearly in "flowy etheric mode". Even if this is a crow, I'd have a hard time thinking it is a harbinger of death. "Many American Indian tribes saw the crow as a wise adviser and the spirit of wisdom and the law."I'd just be very surprised if Tom put a symbol of death in the middle of this collection of actual beings. If the bird is here, the bird is part of the story. |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 21:18:47 GMT
I'm a beginner birder... I'm still learning how to identify birds.
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Post by arucard on Sept 15, 2010 21:22:40 GMT
The relevant page. The construction of the bridge was the Court's idea, to facilitate the humans becoming Forest creatures and leaving the Court. That wouldn't have happened in Diego and Young's lifetimes. Even if you don't consider that evidence, I think by sentence structure and context Coyote's statement implies it was a long time. I disagree. I interpreted that as Coyote saying that the humans used the impassability of the Annan waters as leverage to negotiate the building of a bridge on their terms. In fact, it seemed like one of the reasons they wanted to make the water impassable was to control who can cross (through the bridge). I saw the "eventually" as indicating that there was a lot of bickering over the building of the bridge, but the humans managed to build it on their own terms thanks to the leverage they had gained. This bickering did not necessarily last more than a lifetime, or even more than a few months. That said, you do make some good points about whether or not the heads of the Court would allow humans to go over to the forest, though they might allow it if it meant attracting more people of the forest to the Court. I kinda agree with evilanagram here... I don't think Coyote's statement necessarily means that the bridge was built a long time after the creation of the Annan Waters. But I don't think that anyone who left the Court to become a Forest creature would somehow share with the other Forest folks a good impression of the Court. I can't believe it would actually influence any Forest creature into deciding to go to the Court. |
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Post by arucard on Sept 15, 2010 21:24:37 GMT
"Crows, and especially ravens, often feature in European legends or mythology as portents or harbingers of doom or death, because of their dark plumage, unnerving calls, and tendency to eat carrion (including those of humans). They are commonly thought to circle above scenes of death such as battles." |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 21:29:34 GMT
"Crows, and especially ravens, often feature in European legends or mythology as portents or harbingers of doom or death, because of their dark plumage, unnerving calls, and tendency to eat carrion (including those of humans). They are commonly thought to circle above scenes of death such as battles." Yes, they are often harbingers of death but why would Tom put one in this scene? We don't know who/what the wolf/thing is but we're not assuming its a symbol of something... we assume its something we just haven't heard of yet. Why would the bird be different? |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 21:51:24 GMT
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Post by wittgen on Sept 15, 2010 22:12:48 GMT
Bet the bird is the etheric projection of a tic-toc.
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Post by q3 on Sept 15, 2010 22:32:53 GMT
Are we sure that's a wolf, and not a fox? Or perhaps a Gytrash or Lean Dog? It does look a bit like the Gytrash seen previously, if the extra eyes are cut off by the end of the page. However, I would guess it's either someone we haven't met before, or simply symbolic. Both animals on the page have red streaks that could, perhaps, represent blood, fitting with how Jeanne likely remembers Steadman and Young as the two most responsible for her end. (It doesn't appear as though she ever learned the full extent of Diego's responsibility, despite her suspicions.) |
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Post by jayne on Sept 15, 2010 22:41:19 GMT
I had an "AHA" moment on the drive home. Tell me what you think of this:
This isn't FROM Jeanne at all! This is all from Parley! Jeanne touched Parley and Parley was able to 'see' what occurred in Jeanne's time! Jeanne is actually learning some things she didn't know before!
There's much in this picture that Jeanne would be unconcerned with, and she didn't even know about Young/Steadman's plans but Parley now DOES know... and now Ghost Jeanne does too!
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