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Post by warrl on May 14, 2010 16:12:31 GMT
On another note, I've no idea where you got the idea that Annie feels that she deserves no sympathy right now. Where did that come from? I wondered about the use of "deserves" too... ... but sympathy for her, right now, would be a waste of critically valuable time better spent either freeing Reynardine or chasing Jack.
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Post by hal9000 on May 14, 2010 16:17:48 GMT
I think there's no small amount of self-preservation instinct at work here, in addition to her concerns about reynardine. She doesn't want detention or to have to explain herself, and she knows that both Anja and Eglamore will demand answers and probably slap her with enough detention to last the rest of the comic.
Not that that won't happen eventually anyway, though admittedly the odds of her seeing any significant consequences for this are getting lower by the minute.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 16:22:43 GMT
I think there's no small amount of self-preservation instinct at work here, in addition to her concerns about reynardine. She doesn't want detention or to have to explain herself, and she knows that both Anja and Eglamore will demand answers and probably slap her with enough detention to last the rest of the comic. Not that that won't happen eventually anyway, though admittedly the odds of her seeing any significant consequences for this are getting lower by the minute. I have to say that I disagree with that. It runs in the same vein as those who Wednesday were saying that Annie turning to squinty-guy and asking for help was either her falling into damsel-in-distress mode, or her conning them into not arresting her by pretending to fall into damsel-in-distress mode. I would have thought that her general demeanor on today's page would have led most of those people to realize that she's just asking for help for her hurting friend, as I'd stated before, and she's not going "almost hysterical" or pretending to be, like others had said. But I suppose there are always hold-outs for the extreme theories.
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Post by hal9000 on May 14, 2010 16:54:07 GMT
I think there's no small amount of self-preservation instinct at work here, in addition to her concerns about reynardine. She doesn't want detention or to have to explain herself, and she knows that both Anja and Eglamore will demand answers and probably slap her with enough detention to last the rest of the comic. Not that that won't happen eventually anyway, though admittedly the odds of her seeing any significant consequences for this are getting lower by the minute. I have to say that I disagree with that. It runs in the same vein as those who Wednesday were saying that Annie turning to squinty-guy and asking for help was either her falling into damsel-in-distress mode, or her conning them into not arresting her by pretending to fall into damsel-in-distress mode. I would have thought that her general demeanor on today's page would have led most of those people to realize that she's just asking for help for her hurting friend, as I'd stated before, and she's not going "almost hysterical" or pretending to be, like others had said. But I suppose there are always hold-outs for the extreme theories. Firstly, I wasn't one of those people (though to be honest I thought the possibilities they brought up were intriguing), so posting arguments made by them does nothing for me. It also seems to me that your theory is just as extreme as theirs, but in the opposite direction. You seem to assume Annie's motives are pure as the driven snow, and that doesn't jive with what we've seen of her in the past. I tend to hate the notion that the truth must somehow always be in the middle, but I think perhaps that there are more shades of gray here than either side would like to admit.
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Post by fastbow on May 14, 2010 16:57:43 GMT
Not that that won't happen eventually anyway, though admittedly the odds of her seeing any significant consequences for this are getting lower by the minute. I would tend to disagree. I think, considering the nature of Jack and the task that Annie is being asked to train for, Jones will give her nothing. Jack is becoming more and more an etheric being, and who better to work with him than a Mediator? I also feel we will soon have more answers about what Jack is becoming, and possibly about the Court now that Jones is here.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 17:12:22 GMT
Firstly, I wasn't one of those people (though to be honest I thought the possibilities they brought up were intriguing), so posting arguments made by them does nothing for me. Then you probably shouldn't take what I said so personally. I didn't say you made those arguments, I said that yours sort of followed in the same vein as those; specifically, that there are people who seem to think that Annie MUST always be playing some calculating angle; that she can never just have an honest feeling and act on it. Did I say that? Did I say that? Or did you say that for me? Examples please? I'm not saying Annie is innocent as a kitten, but I can't think of examples where she put her own self-preservation over the needs, much less the agony, of her friends. I don't disagree with you there, but as I said a second ago, there seems to be a trend among some people to think that Annie doesn't do -anything- without some amount of guile, artifice, or personal benefit involved. I find it very telling about society in general that Tom should create a hostile, messed-up, violent, misanthropic character like Jack, and everyone thinks he's so cool and identifies with him, whereas the insecure, introverted, introspective, but ultimately good-natured Annie is seen as calculating and callous and self-serving. Isn't it just possible that Annie is upset because her friend is in agony, and trying to rescue him is more important to her than angling to get out of detention? And by suggesting that, am I really saying that she is pure as the driven snow? Really?
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Post by Zayzie on May 14, 2010 17:41:14 GMT
I find the discussion on Jones rather interesting. I have a thought of what might have happened to her. Remember those tests? From becoming a creature of the forest to a human being in the court, and vice versa? Perhaps she is a creature from the court, or a robot who could actually take one of those tests and somehow became human? I know its a bit of a stretch, but considering how human the court robots actually are I wouldn't put it past her.
She might have also been a very strong presence in the forest, kind of like Coyote and Ysengrin (but like a lesser being), that became human.
Edit: Someone mentioned something about Jones' shadow on the dock in the security camera, but I can't really see any of them looking particularly like her, or even having her hairstyle.
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Post by hal9000 on May 14, 2010 17:52:06 GMT
Then you probably shouldn't take what I said so personally. I didn't say you made those arguments, I said that yours sort of followed in the same vein as those; specifically, that there are people who seem to think that Annie MUST always be playing some calculating angle; that she can never just have an honest feeling and act on it. I'm mature enough to not take things I read on the internet personally. I just think you mentioning that group is irrelevant, and that my argument should be examined independently of theirs. I did say that for you, because I thought you were implying it. I would have thought that her general demeanor on today's page would have led most of those people to realize that she's just asking for help for her hurting friend, as I'd stated before, and she's not going "almost hysterical" or pretending to be, like others had said. But I suppose there are always hold-outs for the extreme theories. Your own words, no? Unless you mean that "just asking for help for her hurting friend" in that context is not meant to exclude all other possible motives, in which case we must have different definitions of the english language and thus a failure to communicate. Perhaps you should state your own position plainly, if you think my interpretation of it is wrong. There are no examples of Annie putting her own self-preservation above that of her friends; but then that wasn't what I said. I said that it was an additional, albeit major, concern for her, and that it could be a large part of why she is so adamant about not involving Anja or Eglamore.
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Post by beatfox on May 14, 2010 17:54:13 GMT
I find the discussion on Jones rather interesting. I have a thought of what might have happened to her. Remember those tests? From becoming a creature of the forest to a human being in the court, and vice versa? Perhaps she is a creature from the court, or a robot who could actually take one of those tests and somehow became human? I know its a bit of a stretch, but considering how human the court robots actually are I wouldn't put it past her. She might have also been a very strong presence in the forest, like Coyote and Ysengrin, that became human. Reynardine doesn't know what Jones is, and he believes that even Coyote doesn't know. If she was a creature from the forest who undertook the test, Coyote would have known what she transformed into since presumably he's the one who makes those transformations take place.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 18:30:56 GMT
Perhaps you should state your own position plainly, if you think my interpretation of it is wrong. If you feel I haven't explained my position clearly enough, then I can certainly try to make it clearer. I believe that Annie is trying to get the suit guys to help Reynardine, and I think she has no secondary motive for doing so. Here's why. I believe that Annie is a basically decent person whose sole motivation for most of the things she's done throughout the comic has been to help someone else and not herself. I don't think that making that claim is equivalent to thinking she is pure as the driven snow. She's done some questionable things because she's human, and she's bent or broken some rules but only ever to further her agenda of helping someone else. If there are any examples in the comic of her behavior that contradict that, I would like to see them. There are a number of possible explanations I could speculate on as to why it is that some people seem to immediately think that Annie must have a hidden agenda in everything she does. Mostly these explanations center around the known phenomenon that school-age children tend to think of someone as being stuck-up or haughty because she doesn't talk to them, when in fact she is only introverted and reserved. Additionally hero(in)es in comics are regularly portrayed as always having an answer or being one step ahead of the others, whereas I think Tom is trying to portray a more 'real' protagonist. I could speculate further, but doing so seems to offend some people for some reason, as if it's verboten to defend Annie, and any positive statement about her is characterized as claiming that she's pure as the driven snow. I think that given the situation, if one accepts the scenario that Annie is guilelessly trying to get Reynardine help, then it is more logical that Annie would reject help from Anja or Eglamore on the grounds that those two see Reynardine in an unfavorable light and would be less inclined to truly help him (i.e. free him, as opposed to using this opportunity to confine him again) than that she would reject their help because she's angling to keep herself out of detention. I think that detention is the furthest thing from Annie's mind, and I think that it's possible for Annie, or any person, to be wholly concerned about the suffering of a friend, without artifice, and not have that statement be labeled as whitewashing the character. I should also state for the sake of completion that I LOVE both Anja and Eglamore: as characters, they are among my most favorite. But they're still human, and driven by human motivations, part of which included dedicating a significant amount of time and energy to "combating" Reynardine. I just think it is much more logical to assume that -that- is the reason Annie doesn't want them involved, over the idea that in the midst of Reynardine's agony, Annie is thinking about avoiding detention. I hope that makes it clearer.
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Post by the bandit on May 14, 2010 18:31:20 GMT
there are people who seem to think that Annie MUST always be playing some calculating angle; that she can never just have an honest feeling and act on it. "Did anyone say that? Did anyone say that? Or did you say that for them?" Seriously, your characterization of the people who thought there was a level of guile on the previous page is so extreme it's galling, all the more so because it's blatantly guilty of what you relayed to me as your pet peeve. There's no need to defend Annie's honest concern for Rey from these people; ironically, the reason they don't seem to factor that emotion into their comments is because they take Annie's concern for Rey so much for granted that it doesn't warrant mentioning (I know I had to consciously insert it into my comments to attempt in vain to avoid the inevitable misinterpretation and pointless disagreement on a non-disagreement) and are instead commenting on the surprising element of artifice. "Surprising," and therefore worthy of remark, because, as you so adamantly maintain, it's not something we usually see in Annie's behavior. Rein it in a bit, there, Casey.
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Post by the bandit on May 14, 2010 18:37:18 GMT
[Anja and Eglamore have dedicated] a significant amount of time and energy to "combating" Reynardine. I just think it is much more logical to assume that -that- is the reason Annie doesn't want them involved, over the idea that in the midst of Reynardine's agony, Annie is thinking about avoiding detention. Now ain't that the truth. It doesn't even make logical sense that Eglamore and Anja equal detention and somehow other Court officials do not. Eglamore and Anja both have a soft spot for Annie. Nor does it make sense, realistically, for Annie to be specifically worried about getting in trouble outside of where being immediately hauled away might have prevented Reynardine from being helped quickly.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 18:49:06 GMT
there are people who seem to think that Annie MUST always be playing some calculating angle; that she can never just have an honest feeling and act on it. "Did anyone say that? Did anyone say that? Or did you say that for them?" Seriously, your characterization of the people who thought there was a level of guile on the previous page is so extreme it's galling Well I'm glad you asked, bandit, because as it turns out... "Nicely played, Annie!" "Law enforcement falls for the damsel in distress ploy yet again. Good job ya chumps." "I love Annie's face in the first panel. "Goddamn it, stop interrupting!"" "I don't think they've fallen for it yet." "Annie is actually asking them to help Jack. Perhaps as a misdirection." "Oooowh, real smooth Carver. I really hope the court believes her "Help me, my bodyguard/friend/doll is in pain."-act." These are the non-Vincent D'Onofrio-related comments from the first page of the last discussion thread. While I believe that to be true in your case, I think it is an assumption on your part that the people I quoted above agree with you. I see nothing in those comments that would lead me to believe anything other than what they are clearly saying at face value. Furthermore, my response to them was not "so extreme" as to be "galling". You are exaggerating. I said this: "I don't understand why people think she's either a) becoming a damsel in distress, or b) playing at being a damsel in distress to con someone. Maybe she's just a girl who has a friend who is in terrible pain and she wants someone to help her make it stop? I don't know, call me crazy... Occam is lathering up again I think. " I didn't call anyone stupid, I didn't question the legitimacy of their birth. I stated that I didn't understand something, and I stated what I thought was a much simpler (hence the reference to Occam's Razor) explanation. If that alone galls you... then I don't know what else I can tell you. Come on, really? I think I've been conducting myself with perfect manners. Why, I haven't even gone so far as to call someone else's behavior "galling". Why can't we all just relax and have a discussion instead of an argument?
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Post by AluK on May 14, 2010 19:06:29 GMT
You know, if anything today's page just reinforces the notion that Annie's reaction WAS an act. I really believe she is indeed concerned with Reynard and that is exactly WHY she's acting.
Given time and free reign, Annie would look for someone she knows would help her free Reynard without risking him, without endangering him in any way or form - probably she would look for Kat, who's knowledgeable with technology and probably would be able to reverse-engineer what Jack did.
That isn't the case and Annie knows it. She has to work with the security. Without a "damsel-in-distress" act, she wouldn't garner any sympathy from them - her chances of getting the help she wants get way smaller.
We've seen time after time that Annie is really smart, has a deep distrust for the grown-ups, would rather take things on her own hands. She's never been prone to emotional outbursts like this. She's never been inclined to go running for the adults, asking for help. I can't see why this would change, now.
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Post by hal9000 on May 14, 2010 19:12:32 GMT
"Did anyone say that? Did anyone say that? Or did you say that for them?" Seriously, your characterization of the people who thought there was a level of guile on the previous page is so extreme it's galling Well I'm glad you asked, bandit, because as it turns out... "Nicely played, Annie!" "Law enforcement falls for the damsel in distress ploy yet again. Good job ya chumps." "I love Annie's face in the first panel. "Goddamn it, stop interrupting!"" "I don't think they've fallen for it yet." "Annie is actually asking them to help Jack. Perhaps as a misdirection." "Oooowh, real smooth Carver. I really hope the court believes her "Help me, my bodyguard/friend/doll is in pain."-act." These are the non-Vincent D'Onofrio-related comments from the first page of the last discussion thread. While I believe that to be true in your case, I think it is an assumption on your part that the people I quoted above agree with you. I see nothing in those comments that would lead me to believe anything other than what they are clearly saying at face value. ahem. "I don't think they've fallen for it yet." That was me, yes. And for the record, I agree with thebandit. Edit: also, thank you for clarifying your position.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 19:14:30 GMT
She has to work with the security. Without a "damsel-in-distress" act, she wouldn't garner any sympathy from them - her chances of getting the help she wants get way smaller. This is the part that I don't get. How did you conclude this?
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 19:19:00 GMT
ahem. "I don't think they've fallen for it yet." That was me, yes. And for the record, I agree with thebandit. Heh, well admittedly, yours was the tamest in the bunch. But I included it for completion. And BTW I never said that the people I quoted -didn't- agree with bandit that Annie's purpose was mostly genuine and only fractionally an act to serve her own purposes. I only said that he was assuming that they did, which isn't related to whether or not they actually did. In your case specifically, I believe that you do... though he still made an assumption that you did. In the case of the others that I quoted I'm not so sure. And in any case, what I said was that the sentences on their face (yours mostly not included) seemed to indicate that their authors felt that Annie's behavior was all an act; not mostly-genuine, partially-act as bandit suggested.
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Post by TBeholder on May 14, 2010 19:19:57 GMT
But really, now we got a character more perfect than Mary Poppins herself. ;D Ms. Jones... It should be illegal to contain that much awesome in a single entity. Not if she's a... Damn, are we aver gonna find out what exactly Jones is? ...goddess? This version suddenly became more credible. Athena was hypothesized already. I wonder though why Annie doesn't want Anja or Eggers involved. I wonder why Annie doesn't want Anja involved. Of course, she made this stuff to begin with, but seemed to be very reasonable. She probably would be annoyed by a crazy brat lifting her little toys, but not craving to imprison Renard when it's obviously not needed. My view is that Annie just panicked. Maybe played it a bit, but not completely. By the way, is it just me, or does Jones look kind of annoyed? Dunno, it's kind of difficult to tell with her. Probably. Antimony is her apprentice and can act calmly in a critical situation (like Old 'Grin looming over her). So this was embarassing, she lost a few points in her teacher's eyes. The best she can do now is to quickly see Renard is all right and report to Jones before asked twice. Very concisely and to the point. B) Annie thinks Jones will be more inclined to listen to her side of the story before passing any judgment. ...and once she does, it's impossible to argue with her. For anyone. At all. Annie already understood this. She was not taught. While could be on a photo with students. And it adds up to the same, isn't it? Why, the Court already got a valkyrie student and was visited by a god... Someone mentioned something about Jones' shadow on the dock in the security camera, but I can't really see any of them looking particularly like her, or even having her hairstyle. If you see everyone running around like decapitated chickens and amidst this one figure stands calm and cool - chances are, that's Jones.
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Post by AluK on May 14, 2010 19:21:44 GMT
This is the part that I don't get. How did you conclude this? Common sense? I mean, what do you think is more likely, the guards helping a desperate girl or receiving orders from a teenaged student?
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 19:23:49 GMT
This is the part that I don't get. How did you conclude this? Common sense? I mean, what do you think is more likely, the guards helping a desperate girl or receiving orders from a teenaged student? That assumes that those are the only two options. Let me turn the question around: What do you think is more likely, the guards helping a girl putting on a damsel-in-distress act, or a girl urgently and genuinely seeking assistance? Who said anything about giving orders?
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Post by the bandit on May 14, 2010 19:43:17 GMT
Well I'm glad you asked, bandit, because as it turns out... None of those comments even came close to communicating the idea that "Annie MUST always be playing some calculating angle; that she can never just have an honest feeling and act on it" or that "Annie doesn't do -anything- without some amount of guile, artifice, or personal benefit involved." The most any of them communicated was that she possessed an element of artifice in her actions on that particular page. And that page is the first time anyone has even broached the topic, so it's rather extreme to now paint those commenters with the wide brush that they all view her as an always conniving, self-serving actress. Most of quoted comments are light-hearted and tongue-in-cheek, even. That I so very clearly do not fall into the category of people to whom you are referring, yet am still galled by your categorization of them should serve as a bit of a check, not as a reason to ignore my advice to pull back a little bit with your rhetoric.
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Post by AluK on May 14, 2010 19:48:58 GMT
That assumes that those are the only two options. Let me turn the question around: What do you think is more likely, the guards helping a girl putting on a damsel-in-distress act, or a girl urgently and genuinely seeking assistance? Both are equally as likely, especially considering that the guards don't have a way to know she's putting on an act. Who said anything about giving orders? I was being superlative, but I'm sure you got what I meant.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 19:52:39 GMT
Oh, so you took my hyperbole-as-characterization-of-absurdity literally. Okay.
Still I think you're being generous in looking at those comments and claiming that they only claim "an element" of artifice in her actions, and not full-blown act. I don't think there's anything about the words "play", "ploy", and "act" that suggest, well, anything other than a play, a ploy, or an act. How do you partially act, anyway?
Edit: This was in response to bandit, not AluK. And I think I'm going to stop posting on this subject for a while... enough's enough.
I was enjoying the conversation about Jones. Maybe we can go back to that.
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Post by blackboe on May 14, 2010 20:14:47 GMT
I think Shell is a very likeable character in an odd way. I thought she looked cool when I first saw her, but her personality intrigues me somewhat. Seems there's a bit of an inferiority complex under her skin, the way she's so put out about not catching jack, and the way she gets so irate when she thinks Antimony is pushing her around.
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Post by the bandit on May 14, 2010 20:29:25 GMT
*shrug* Girl in traditional male role. Note also the short hair.
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Post by hal9000 on May 14, 2010 20:40:07 GMT
*shrug* Girl in traditional male role. Note also the short hair. When did we find out Shell was female? I thought that was all speculation.
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optern
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by optern on May 14, 2010 20:45:32 GMT
*shrug* Girl in traditional male role. Note also the short hair. Excuse me, but where on Earth do you get away with saying something like this? Oh, Texas. I see. Yeah, because being emotional and feeling insecure are faults of the inferior sex, I suppose, and arise from them trying to mimic masculine roles. Whatever.
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Post by legion on May 14, 2010 20:52:06 GMT
*shrug* Girl in traditional male role. Note also the short hair. When did we find out Shell was female? I thought that was all speculation. Tom said she was a she on formspring; note also how her jacket is buttoned like a woman's jacket (right side over left side). *shrug* Girl in traditional male role. Note also the short hair. Excuse me, but where on Earth do you get away with saying something like this? Oh, Texas. I see. Yeah, because being emotional and feeling insecure are faults of the inferior sex, I suppose, and arise from them trying to mimic masculine roles. Whatever. What, I don't think he meant that... it was more like "oh, girl in traditional male role *shrug* sure, whatever".
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Post by sudrien on May 14, 2010 20:58:24 GMT
Question: why are people assuming concrete? It's more likely to be a thick coat of plaster.
1. Older building, by the decay & design. Pre-drywall, if the concept even exists.
2. I've never seen concrete walls fracture quite like that.
3. Wiring is harder to do with solid walls - so it's hidden above drop ceilings, or protected inside pipes with relatively easy access. Which have been shown in other areas, but not this hall.
4. Why you you want to transport that much more material across a lake if you could avoid it?
Plastered halls. The River Styx scenario would still be beneficial, though.
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Post by Casey on May 14, 2010 21:18:40 GMT
Historical aside: The Northeast United States is populated by peoples who mostly came from England. In medieval times, the English treated women basically as property. In medieval England, the woman might have been asked her opinion... but then the man made the final decision. Contrast this with Spain, where the woman was seen as an equal. Spain was a matriarchal society to a large degree. The Spanish settled in Mexico. The northern part of old Mexico is now called Texas. Texas was also settled by Germans, who held many of the same beliefs. So I find it pretty ironic that you'd attempt to disparage someone as purportedly demeaning womankind based on the fact that they're from Texas. In many places in this country, the men defend their women. In Texas, we arm them.
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