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Post by the bandit on Dec 7, 2009 20:26:08 GMT
In other news, Sir Young is not actually a knight, but rather the bastard boy of a knight, who gave him the personal name Sir so that nobody would be able to address him disrespectfully.
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Post by strangethoughts on Dec 7, 2009 20:37:51 GMT
Sir young is a dragon slayer and thus the split has forced him to part ways with the rogat orjak he has partnered with. Sir young is gone because he is saying goodbye. Jeanne knowing how great the bond between dragon slayer and rogat orjak is fears he will choose not to return.
If the court does not even allow trees at this point they certainly would not allow a great "beast" to be among theml. Jeanne is also likely friends with whoever this rogat orjak is because you do NOT love a dragon slayer without befriending his partner. The relationship would be too close to interfere with.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 20:50:47 GMT
Sir young is a dragon slayer and thus the split has forced him to part ways with the rogat orjak he has partnered with. Sir young is gone because he is saying goodbye. Jeanne knowing how great the bond between dragon slayer and rogat orjak is fears he will choose not to return. If the court does not even allow trees at this point they certainly would not allow a great "beast" to be among theml. Jeanne is also likely friends with whoever this rogat orjak is because you do NOT love a dragon slayer without befriending his partner. The relationship would be too close to interfere with. Interesting theory. However, the split certainly didn't stop Sir Eglamore and Sivo, or Sir Thorn and Nehvita.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 20:51:35 GMT
Or actually Nehvita was Young's Rogat friend, wasn't it. I don't know if Thorn's has been named.
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Post by cripplerking on Dec 7, 2009 20:52:23 GMT
Hey, remember Coyote saying that the Court did something to prevent anything from crossing the Annan Waters? I bet that was Diego; he was quite disdainful of the ethereal forest creatures, wanting to isolate the Court from them, and maybe he did that to permanently separate Jeanne from Sir Young, who was away from the Court training. Jeanne eventually tries to cross the Waters to reach Young anyway, but she drowns- Diego blames Young for her death out of jealously, believing that since she was trying to get to him it was his fault. Jeanne's spirit, out of desire for Young, remains on the shore, unable to pass on to the next life.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 21:12:29 GMT
I'm still confused as to why anyone thinks that Young is in the Forest.
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Post by the bandit on Dec 7, 2009 21:24:41 GMT
Because people speculate on the new information based not just on the old, but also on the old speculations.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Dec 7, 2009 21:47:13 GMT
Makes sense. Coyote used the word "something", meaning that he, the all-powerful god-thing, doesn't know what it is. Coyote is a trickster, and any trickster worth his salt can use the truth to deceive others, by wording it to imply a falsehood or to make the hearer misunderstand. Since Coyote did not explicitly say that he doesn't know what the Court did, we can't rule out the possibility that he knows more than he's saying.
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Post by wynne on Dec 7, 2009 22:00:28 GMT
The obvious suggestion would be Young, therefore it probably isn't. Rey's comments on the discovery of the portrait are based on "you can tell just by looking" so either he actually knew about the situation or it's some massive conjecture. We already know Rey is a very good actor - he tricked Antimony into trusting him very early on - so it's not unreasonable to suggest that he was lying here about just guessing. Besides, he, Coyote and Ysengrin arrived at Gillitie together, and Jeanne and Deigo know about Coyote, so they probably also knew Rey. I'm not saying that Rey is the "he", just that he probably knows much much more than he's telling. It's possible that Rey knows more, but probably not too much. Remember, he can't lie to Annie, at least not outright. When they first found Jeanne's painting (here), Annie asked them to tell her what he knew. While Rey could have known everything he told her from personal experience and just referenced the painting to make it look as though he never knew Jeanne, someone more familiar with the Word of Tom than I would know more than I do if that counts as lying or not. I think he could leave information out, so long as he didn't change the facts, right?
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Post by miaerin on Dec 7, 2009 22:06:55 GMT
This kinda clears some some things, but kinda fogs it up too.
Maybe when Diego programmed the robots, he did it because of his own mistake, to kinda remind him of his poor choice.
I bet what Diego ment by "She died and we did nothing" was that while she was alone, she was dying inside, and the little robots and him didnt help her in the least.
Maybe thats why that big bull robot was Sir Young, because he was the reason poor Jeanne was hurting?
I dont knowm kinda wishy washy but thats what I think... That or she as a thing for coyote... Which would be wierd.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 22:30:00 GMT
I bet what Diego ment by "She died and we did nothing" was [...] I think it is important to remember that Diego never said this... the robots did. It's possible that this is an independent thought that they came up with and spread to all robots. The distinction is important if we are to consider possibilities such as that Diego killed Jeanne, and the robots lament the fact that they were unable to stop him because he was their creator. Someone else mentioned this recently and credit goes to them for thinking of it, not me. But it is a very interesting Asimovian possibility... being programmed to love Jeanne and therefore want to save her, but being unable to save her because doing so would go against some other instruction such as "don't kill/stop/question your creator".
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Post by Goatmon on Dec 7, 2009 22:39:08 GMT
I bet what Diego ment by "She died and we did nothing" was [...] I think it is important to remember that Diego never said this... the robots did. It's possible that this is an independent thought that they came up with and spread to all robots. This is true! Although I am very skeptical that Diego is responsible for her death, it does make sense that the "we did nothing" came from the robots themselves and not Diego.
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Post by strangethoughts on Dec 7, 2009 23:23:40 GMT
Interesting theory. However, the split certainly didn't stop Sir Eglamore and Sivo, or Sir Thorn and Nehvita. AH! but that is AFTER the bridge is built and the test is established. After relations have been renewed and creatures of the forest are allowed to dwell in the court. Right now we can only assume that the splitting of court from forest is total. After all, they're cutting down ALL the trees to expunge any trace of the forest.
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rye
New Member
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Post by rye on Dec 7, 2009 23:36:52 GMT
A little question from my side: Wasn´t Sir Young the teach of James? Also wasn´t the whole "cut between court and forest" many, many, MANY years ago? So here´s my question: How comes that almost everyone is sure/thinks/believes that it´s Sir Young who´s the lover of Jeanne? Wasn´t that before his time? My face for today:
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Post by strangethoughts on Dec 7, 2009 23:49:18 GMT
A little question from my side: Wasn´t Sir Young the teach of James? Also wasn´t the whole "cut between court and forest" many, many, MANY years ago? So here´s my question: How comes that almost everyone is sure/thinks/believes that it´s Sir Young who´s the lover of Jeanne? Wasn´t that before his time? My face for today: No, the one who taught James was Sir.Thorn. Who does look a bit like Sir young untill you compare them side by side. The reason we assume that Sir young is the lover of Jeanne is because the beast robot that attacked seraph 1 during the confrontation outside of Jeanne's memorial was revealed to greatly resemble sir young during the holographic representation of the founding of the court (at least from antimony's perspective) And that since the beast was accused of causing Jeanne's death and since Diego seems like the jealous type the assumption that they're lovers flows quite naturally. (of course Im new to the boards and can't speak for everyone, but that is what draws my assumptions.)
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Post by Casey on Dec 8, 2009 0:45:02 GMT
No, you've got it right.
S1 was Diego's vision of his own ideal self... a graceful matador. He cast his personal nemesis, Sir Young, as the Bull-bot. He then scripted the scene in the chapter "S1" such that he (Diego) "slays" his nemesis Sir Young, virtually, living vicariously through his robots.
Since we know Diego is infatuated with Jeanne in a selfish manner, to the point that he is trying to ply her with toys and convince her to forget "him", it is easy to assume (though not foolproof) that "him" is Sir Young, and Diego's hatred of him stems from his being a rival for Jeanne's affections.
It's also still possible that Sir Young was directly or indirectly responsible for Jeanne's death through action or inaction, but at this point, for me, that's seeming a lot less likely.
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
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Post by Pig_catapult on Dec 8, 2009 1:44:10 GMT
I have to admit, this was the dead last thing I was expecting to see on this page. I'm surprised that the Robots are willing to show anything that could cast Jeanne in a negative light, unless the robots also think that what Deigo just did there was a real jerk move.
Also: "Seraphim" is the plural of "seraph". One seraph, two seraphim.
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rallan
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Post by rallan on Dec 8, 2009 1:51:29 GMT
The Ysengrim & Jeanne theory is the most believable wild spec I've heard on these boards yet. Dost thou think Diego could become petty enough to make the Annan Waters impassable? If that turns out to be his fault, I doubt it'll be petty spite. It'll either be part of a broader strategy of isolating the Court and the Wood (which he seems to totally support) or a misguided attempt to help Jeanne get over her other love by ruling out even the faintest possibility of them reuniting. The other possibility (if we go with the Ysengrin/Jeanne theory) is that Ysengrin himself does it in a rage because he never wants to ahve anything to do with the Court again. Or alternatively Coyote did it, because he's the one who seperated the Court and the Woods in the first place and he strikes me as the sort of guy who'll accidentally go overboard without thinking things through first
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rallan
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Post by rallan on Dec 8, 2009 2:01:18 GMT
I bet what Diego ment by "She died and we did nothing" was [...] I think it is important to remember that Diego never said this... the robots did. It's possible that this is an independent thought that they came up with and spread to all robots. The distinction is important if we are to consider possibilities such as that Diego killed Jeanne, and the robots lament the fact that they were unable to stop him because he was their creator. Someone else mentioned this recently and credit goes to them for thinking of it, not me. But it is a very interesting Asimovian possibility... being programmed to love Jeanne and therefore want to save her, but being unable to save her because doing so would go against some other instruction such as "don't kill/stop/question thine creator". I think the "we did nothing" thought originated with Diego. Remember, the shrine to Jeanne included representatives of all the major robot models Diego made, and included a pageant where a robot representing a hero vanquishes a robot representing a terrible monster. I'm guessing that Diego blames himself for the failure of both him and his robots to save Jeanne (either literally save her from something bad, or metaphorically save her from her own unhappiness, take your pick) and that after her tragic demise his obsession continued to shape his work, projecting his guilt trip onto his robots forever.
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rallan
Junior Member
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Post by rallan on Dec 8, 2009 2:36:46 GMT
I've got it! "Him" is Sir Young. He's not dead and he's not trapped in the Wood, but he's still lost to Jeanne forever because he fell in love with Jones, who was builty by Diego to seduce Sir Young away fom Jeanne! Take THAT logic and common sense, I've got the best theory ever now
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Post by strangethoughts on Dec 8, 2009 2:41:04 GMT
I have to admit, this was the dead last thing I was expecting to see on this page. I'm surprised that the Robots are willing to show anything that could cast Jeanne in a negative light, unless the robots also think that what Deigo just did there was a real jerk move. Also: "Seraphim" is the plural of "seraph". One seraph, two seraphim. Ah but she isn't just anyone. She's an angel, fixer of robots discoverer of shrines! If anyone can fix a robot's religious turmoil surely an angel can. Also, you're quite right. The mistake has been fixed.
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river
New Member
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Post by river on Dec 8, 2009 3:00:15 GMT
I'm curious as to whether anyone got the feeling that Diego was acting a tad bit like the 'Nice Guy'? Not the general positive character archetype we have of the Nice Guy, but the Self-Proclamative archetype, who obsesses over the object (and in this case I do mean object) of their affections? Doting on her, being badly timed in their romantic approaches and being overly-generous with the gifts?
This is just the impression I've been getting ever since the beginning of this recorded scene, really, and I might be exaggerating his behavior traits a bit, but it's still pinging as 'Nice Guy (TM)' to me, and in a bad way. :/
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Post by Casey on Dec 8, 2009 5:16:29 GMT
I'm curious as to whether anyone got the feeling that Diego was acting a tad bit like the 'Nice Guy'? Not the general positive character archetype we have of the Nice Guy, but the Self-Proclamative archetype, who obsesses over the object (and in this case I do mean object) of their affections? Doting on her, being badly timed in their romantic approaches and being overly-generous with the gifts? This is just the impression I've been getting ever since the beginning of this recorded scene, really, and I might be exaggerating his behavior traits a bit, but it's still pinging as 'Nice Guy (TM)' to me, and in a bad way. :/ Oh yeah, I'm right there with you on that one. Some have interpreted Diego asking if Jeanne was sad as a demonstration of his genuine concern for her. I think though that the events of the page that followed showed something else. I think he was seeing her being sad again as a vantage point, a weakness in her that he could use to his advantage to (in his mind) rush to her rescue with his "gifts" (again, in his mind) that should "sweep her off her feet" (... you know what goes here) and "win the day" in a dramatic storybook way. In other words... Diego seems pretty crappy about right now. Someone along the way said that the obvious rarely turns out to be true in GC, and I would agree in this case. Since "S1" we've been meant to believe that Diego truly cared about Jeanne and was distraught over not being able to help her in some way. Now, though, it looks more like he feels like he couldn't "help" her get over her ridiculous love for those filthy forest creatures and that horrible man who just happens to be standing in his way to Jeanne. Not seeing that what's really standing in his way is the simple fact that he doesn't really care a thing about what is important to her, and that that makes him more repulsive than his stature or his big nose.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Dec 8, 2009 6:46:21 GMT
Noo!
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jon77
Full Member
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Post by jon77 on Dec 8, 2009 7:11:10 GMT
I have to admit, this was the dead last thing I was expecting to see on this page. I'm surprised that the Robots are willing to show anything that could cast Jeanne in a negative light, unless the robots also think that what Deigo just did there was a real jerk move. Also: "Seraphim" is the plural of "seraph". One seraph, two seraphim. "...swung by seraphim whose footfalls tinkled on the tufted floor - "
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Post by strangethoughts on Dec 8, 2009 7:23:22 GMT
"...swung by seraphim whose footfalls tinkled on the tufted floor - " Quoth the tic tocs, "nevermore".
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Dec 8, 2009 9:52:06 GMT
Totally crazy idea, guys: what if Ysengrim is Sir Young?
Ysengrim has the same general build as all the dragon slayers we've seen, and it's implied that he wasn't originally all woody. Additionally, I don't remember precisely, but could the mechanical bull actually represent one of the giant wooden... animal-things like we saw attacking the Court in chapter 22?
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Post by nikita on Dec 8, 2009 11:08:07 GMT
Ysengrin is not Sir Young. Sir Young was there when the bismuth seed was planted. Yssy arrived later, together with Coyote and Reynardine.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Dec 8, 2009 11:53:13 GMT
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Post by the bandit on Dec 8, 2009 15:07:12 GMT
Interesting theory. However, the split certainly didn't stop Sir Eglamore and Sivo, or Sir Thorn and Nehvita. AH! but that is AFTER the bridge is built and the test is established. After relations have been renewed and creatures of the forest are allowed to dwell in the court. For some reason, the Rogat Orjak do not have to take the test. They're still dragons on the Court side, not humans with dragonly features. For this reason, I don't think they are from the forest.
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