rallan
Junior Member
Posts: 86
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Post by rallan on Dec 7, 2009 13:38:21 GMT
Someone's PMSing. Maybe him is Coyote. Just because that's the only other "him" mentioned. Possibly, but he doesn't seem to fit very neatly. Jeanne mentions him casually as just part of the situation, and his name doesn't provoke a big response from Diego either. Then there's a buildup, then our "him" is mentioned and it sets off an explosion. Plus I really have a hard time imagining Coyote in a situation where he's one half of a tragic doomed romance.
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Post by Snes on Dec 7, 2009 13:57:56 GMT
Excuse me, I just need to laugh over thy calling Ysengrin 'Yssy'. I laughed more at the notion of Ysengrin "sitting in a tree" when that's pretty much what he does 24/7 nowadays. I'm not so quick to jump on the "He = Young" bandwagon. The "he's off training" theory doesn't really hold up when you consider that the Court is still in its early years. I imagine they'd want to keep their dragon slayer close. Eglmore was off training so he could become a dragon slayer. Young already holds that distinction. I think that, if it is Young, he's dead. But it may not be Young. We don't know for sure. All we know is that Diego blames Young for Jeanne's death. That, coupled with the fact that we know pretty much nobody else who was alive back then, does make him a tempting target for speculation.
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Post by isabellemoerman on Dec 7, 2009 14:12:26 GMT
More than anything, I feel sorry for both Jeanne and Diego.
I'm curious about the identity of "He". I don't think it's Sir Young or anyone else related to the court, since her melancholy over the passing of the trees is tied directly into her hissyfit over "His" mention. Yet I don't see Coyote or Ysengrin (the only named members of the Woods) as the third part of this love triangle.
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Post by Goatmon on Dec 7, 2009 14:12:44 GMT
Still, I wonder what the spirit-world cut on the face was for, and who made it so she can't cross the river. I gave this some thought recently. I recalled the incident with Zimmy, and Gamma's ability and habit of gopping the "nobodies". I am thinking that perhaps Jeanne wasn't out to hurt Annie. Perhaps she merely cut her to see if she could reach and affect her. If it was because of Annie that she could even cross the river, maybe it's only Annie that she can physically interact with - stuck as she is. Then again, Muut warned Annie - be thankful she cannot cross the river. Also, I'm not sure if Jeanne's final pose in that scene was one for attack, it's hard for me to tell. It is pretty clear that Jeanne's ghost was making a move to attack Annie. The lines behind her suggest she is moving foward quickly with her sword pointed forward. Also, Annie shields herself as though she is about to be attacked. She was clearly making a lunge for the girl. Whether or not she intended to kill Annie is unknown. In regards to Jeanne crossing the river, I have to say again that, because a character states something factually, does not mean that it is so. Because Muut claimed Jeanne could not cross the river does not really mean anything, obviously, because she clearly crossed the bloody river.Nothing is absolutely true unless Tom says so himself. And maybe Coyote. =P
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Post by Goatmon on Dec 7, 2009 14:19:50 GMT
Also, and this is pure speculation, but I have a very strong feeling that Sir Young has is/was not only a love interest for Surma, but has remained in the forest after the divide and become a vessel for Ysengrin.
I'm probably wrong on the latter part, but that's where my imagination is leaning.
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Post by Seth Thresher on Dec 7, 2009 14:22:28 GMT
You know, I'm curious to see what exactly King-of-the-Whiteboard says is the source of their confusion...
possibly her destruction of their fellow robots, when they still love her so much? Mebbe...
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Post by romangoro on Dec 7, 2009 14:57:00 GMT
Hey! How about that, I was right. in the last thread That's one out of one! Someone said that Diego was a tragic hero, as in "greek tragedy" or "shackespearean tragedy" and I think she/he was right. And what I really like about that (and what I like about Tom's writing) is how that makes me "pity" (please forgive my lack of a better english vocabulary) some not too likeable characters: Diego _and_ Jeanne. Both of them have many flaws, but if you look at the bigger picture, there where kind of trapped in a very complicated world and in a very special moment of it. And that's their tragedy. Tom, I love your writing, not only it entertains me, it also respects me as a reader, and apparently it improves my english
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Dec 7, 2009 14:59:04 GMT
Yeah, I'm thinking it's Young. The freight that the robots are carrying for Diego has that air of frustrated, unrequited love about it. He's instructed his creations to hate the man who, in his mind, has prevented Jeanne from loving him. (He probably holds Young responsible for her death because she's distraught over him and is going to do something stupid as a result, or because he isn't going to be around to save her from what happens, or both.)
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Post by sebastian on Dec 7, 2009 15:02:41 GMT
guys, i think i know what happened... deigo killed jeanne and threw her body into the river. the robots all feel guilty because she died and they could have saved her but that would have required fighting their creator. so, they did nothing. I don't think so, given what we saw the first time we went to Jeanne's Tomb. I think Reynardine's analysis of the situation down there is spot on. It was Diego who did nothing, and he has programmed the Robots to emphasize this fact. As for Jeanne's current situation, I imagine she has feelings for someone/something in the forest. Its hard to tell who, since the only resident we know is....Coyote. There is Isengrim, too. Crazy theory for crazy theory, she was in love with Isengrim, (personality wise they seem quite matching for the little we have seen). Maybe Isengrim hate humans so much because he think (right or wrong) that they killed her or caused her death someway. edit: someone beat me to it, oh, well...
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Post by the bandit on Dec 7, 2009 15:16:54 GMT
The Ysengrim & Jeanne theory is the most believable wild spec I've heard on these boards yet.
Dost thou think Diego could become petty enough to make the Annan Waters impassable?
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 15:19:25 GMT
It's interesting to me, I figured there would be a lot of different opinions on Jeanne's behavior, which there seem to be, but I didn't figure that there'd be so much difference of opinion on who "he" is that they are referring to.
Should be an interesting week of updates.
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Post by kingpocky on Dec 7, 2009 15:31:39 GMT
I also don't think that the "he" is likely to be Sir Young, as the Court and the Woods seem to have cut off all diplomatic relations with one another. Thus, the dragonslayer is more likely to be staying at home for protection. If he was on the other side of the river, he would probably be fighting against the animals of the forest, and Jeanne wouldn't likely approve of someone like that. Plus, there's the way robot said "You will pay for what you did to her." That seems to suggest that Young was directly responsible for what happened. (However, that's just my personal view, as it does make sense as well that a grieving and jealous Diego could regard Young as responsible even if he only played a passive role in her death.)
My theory is that Jeanne, desperate for the man/male and the forest that she loves, does something dangerous or forbidden in an attempt to connect with or return to the woods. Sir Young attempts to stop her, and she dies in the confrontation that follows (Likely being pushed into the Annan.)
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Post by martinjh99 on Dec 7, 2009 15:44:31 GMT
Just had a thought - maybe she dies in the same spot Annie found her way back when...
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mike
Junior Member
"Fighting evil improves the children's moral character."
Posts: 58
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Post by mike on Dec 7, 2009 16:28:36 GMT
I think Jeanne makes the waters impassable... Coyote said the Court did "something" to that effect. Jeanne's presence, and her killing anything and everything (well, almost everything-- Annie did escape) that ventures near the water certainly fits that description.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 16:53:13 GMT
Every forest creature that wants to become human has to go down in the ravine and "pass the test" in order to go to the Court. If they don't "pass the test" (die, by some means other than suicide) then they are "stuck down there".
Jeanne didn't attack Red and Blue, so apparently she doesn't kill anything and everything down in the ravine. However, I do find it to be an interesting requirement for passage to the Court, all things considered. Whether Jeanne's ghost is a complication to that test, or she -is- the test, is something to ponder.
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Post by xanbcoo on Dec 7, 2009 17:07:31 GMT
I'm wondering how all the robots can continue to idolize Jeanne after they've seen her TOTALLY TRASH LIKE 10 ROBOTS IN ANGER.
I didn't realize how abusive the relationship was.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 17:10:00 GMT
I'm wondering how all the robots can continue to idolize Jeanne after they've seen her TOTALLY TRASH LIKE 10 ROBOTS IN ANGER. Perhaps the robots have a greater understanding of human emotions than Diego does? Perhaps they understand that Diego was hurting her by mentioning "him" and telling her she should forget "him". Perhaps they blame Diego for programming them to feel something for someone who doesn't want that thing to be felt for them. Or perhaps they only recently knew of cam-bot's memory.
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myra
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by myra on Dec 7, 2009 17:22:35 GMT
I'm sure this scene of destruction and unrequited love is at least related to the robots' source of confusion. The idea that the robots could understand the emotions more clearly than Diego is ironic but fascinating... it would go along with the cool whiteboard-face that Robot King uses. If this is the case, Tom has made another really intriguing twist.
It's really hard to tell, but I agree that the "him" is probably someone/thing on the forest side, based on the conversation context. (Though that fight between robot-Diego and robot-Sir Young really looked like a fight for her love...)
Also, the one other canine we know of is Reynardine. Maybe he is the "him" - it would explain why Reynard seemed to know what was going on (or guess very well), and his opinion about Diego could easily have been influenced by Jeanne (compare "runt of a man" in comic 433 with "horrible little man.") And we also know that Reynard had already made human friends at some point.
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Post by almoray on Dec 7, 2009 17:30:37 GMT
Every forest creature that wants to become human has to go down in the ravine and "pass the test" in order to go to the Court. If they don't "pass the test" (die, by some means other than suicide) then they are "stuck down there". Jeanne didn't attack Red and Blue, so apparently she doesn't kill anything and everything down in the ravine. However, I do find it to be an interesting requirement for passage to the Court, all things considered. Whether Jeanne's ghost is a complication to that test, or she -is- the test, is something to ponder. I think she's in love with someone on the other side of the river. She not only strikes an excellent Red face, but also she smashes the robots with her bare hands like an angry animal even though she's an incredibly skilled swordswomen. I too believe she's from the forest. She passed the test to come to the human side, but now that the forest is divided, she can't go home. The "can't get home" feeling is enough to keep any ghost lingering for hundreds of years. She's obviously a solider, perhaps she was a guard of some form in the forest as well, which would put her close to coyote, and "yssy". Diego is obviously incredibly smart to build such machines, but totally stupid when it comes to the ladies. "You're sad again about the forest? How about I just disregard the thing that you obviously love so much with cutting remarks and give you toys that represent the exact opposite of what you love so much? Feel better dear?" If she is from the forest, he doesn't seem to know.
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Post by Ulysses on Dec 7, 2009 17:41:24 GMT
The obvious suggestion would be Young, therefore it probably isn't.
Rey's comments on the discovery of the portrait are based on "you can tell just by looking" so either he actually knew about the situation or it's some massive conjecture. We already know Rey is a very good actor - he tricked Antimony into trusting him very early on - so it's not unreasonable to suggest that he was lying here about just guessing. Besides, he, Coyote and Ysengrin arrived at Gillitie together, and Jeanne and Deigo know about Coyote, so they probably also knew Rey. I'm not saying that Rey is the "he", just that he probably knows much much more than he's telling.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 17:51:06 GMT
I too believe she's from the forest. She passed the test to come to the human side, but now that the forest is divided, she can't go home. I'm not sure why there would have been a test to pass from the court to the forest though, before there was even a divide between them... This, however, is exactly how I think about the scene as well. I think you did a better job of spelling it out than I did.
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mike
Junior Member
"Fighting evil improves the children's moral character."
Posts: 58
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Post by mike on Dec 7, 2009 18:14:13 GMT
Every forest creature that wants to become human has to go down in the ravine and "pass the test" in order to go to the Court. If they don't "pass the test" (die, by some means other than suicide) then they are "stuck down there". Jeanne didn't attack Red and Blue, so apparently she doesn't kill anything and everything down in the ravine. However, I do find it to be an interesting requirement for passage to the Court, all things considered. Whether Jeanne's ghost is a complication to that test, or she -is- the test, is something to ponder. That's true, and I hadn't considered it-- thanks for pointing it out. However, there was one difference between Annie, and Red and Blue-- Annie crossed the Annan Waters to the Forest side, and the Suicide Fairies hadn't crossed over to the Court side. Perhaps crossing the waters to the side where you don't "belong" is what triggers Jeanne to attack. So creatures in the forest either drown crossing the river, or if they make it, they get killed by Jeanne-- because they're on the wrong side. Another point to consider is that Red and Blue got killed by Ysengrin-- so unless he's a part of the test, what normally happens to Forest creatures that take it didn't apply in their case. Also, it seems that getting killed in the ravine is enough to "pass the test"-- crossing the river & getting killed on the Court side doesn't seem to be a requirement.
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 18:18:29 GMT
I like where you're going with that. Now we just have to come up with a reason why Jeanne's restless spirit would be so adamant that creatures stay on their respective sides, when in life, she didn't like the whole division of the Court and the Forest in the first place.
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Post by alextrebek on Dec 7, 2009 18:41:49 GMT
I admittedly skimmed over most of the discussion here, but I had a thought that I don't think I saw posted:
We've already established by the timeline that Coyote separating the Court and Forest couldn't have happened far too long before this flashback to Jeanne and Diego, right?
Well, if the three canines all came relatively recently, it seems unlikely Reynardine would immediately have ditched Ysengrin and Coyote as soon as they got there. I don't have evidence and am too lazy to look for some, but it seems to me that if Jeanne had a relationship with Coyote or Ysengrin, Reynardine would at least recognize her name or portrait, but I believe he has given no indication of this at all.
Either that or it was a SECRET RELATIONSHIP OH SNAP! Still, I find it unlikely 'he' represents one of the three crazy canines. We shall have to wait and find out!
Edit: Furthermore, just because Jeanne knows who Coyote is, does not mean it went back the other way. Coyote is Kind Of A Big Deal, so I don't think this necessarily means Coyote has any clue who she is, or is the 'he' that is being referred to.
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Post by fuzzyone on Dec 7, 2009 18:43:39 GMT
Well, Red and Blue were going down into the ravine to take the test. Those who take the test don't come back to tell others what's involved. They have to go down there and die, and then there IS no coming back to the forest. And they can't just kill themselves... so I have to ask... What, Aside from Jeanne, is down there that is so lethal?
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Dec 7, 2009 18:56:28 GMT
Ohai, I’m new here so bear with me please
Sir Young and Jeanne are definitely bound in some way but I don’t think it’s romantic. She is definitely sad over someone on the other side of the river and her sadness and anger towards Diego is most indicative of a lover. So what could make a young, beautiful girl separate from someone she loves?
Note that both Jeannie and Sir Young are warriors, you can even see the sword casually leaning against the wall in Jeannie’s room in this panel indicating that she rarely parts from it. Rey mentioned that she clutches it and is uncomfortable in finery.
Now how could a young girl learn sword fighting?
Either from a teacher or from a relative.
In my opinion Young is her sword teacher and possibly either a father or a figure of authority in her life. If he didn’t like someone Jeannie was involved with (as an overprotective parent often does) he could forbid her from joining him in the forest. Diego is allowed to be with her because Young could see him as harmless and at the same time having no chance with Jeannie making him the perfect, non threatening guardian which is why Jeannie hates him so much.
This is just a theory though, what do you think?
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Post by judgedeadd on Dec 7, 2009 19:09:51 GMT
You know, I'm curious to see what exactly King-of-the-Whiteboard says is the source of their confusion... possibly her destruction of their fellow robots, when they still love her so much? Mebbe... Or maybe, after the movie's over, Kingbot will explain that what worries the robots is some minor detail - e.g. King: "Some say this movie takes place at noon, while others place it in the morning! What do you say?" Annie: "HOLY CARP JEANNE AND DIEGO! THE PLOT THICKENS!" King: "What? Oh, right, them too." Makes sense. Coyote used the word "something", meaning that he, the all-powerful god-thing, doesn't know what it is. The psychopomps didn't know who or what Jeanne was and what is she doing there. Thus, both Jeanne's Ghost and That Thing That Was Done To The Flowing River are inexplicable to supernatural, powerful entities. COINCIDENCE? Also: just to get all our bases covered: Jeanne is in love with someone who took the test and became a forest creature thingy. Jeanne/"Him" = Kat/Aly. Only Jeanne didn't get over it as well as Kat did.
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noako
New Member
Posts: 34
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Post by noako on Dec 7, 2009 19:12:29 GMT
I'm wondering how all the robots can continue to idolize Jeanne after they've seen her TOTALLY TRASH LIKE 10 ROBOTS IN ANGER. I didn't realize how abusive the relationship was. Yeah, I'm wondering why people believe in and love God. Or any god for that matter, they all kill people.
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Post by sandjosieph on Dec 7, 2009 19:12:57 GMT
@___@
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Post by Casey on Dec 7, 2009 19:45:53 GMT
If indeed Sir Young is Jeanne's father, would that make her Miss Younger?
See because he's Young, she must be Younger...
yeah, I'm not that funny.
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