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Post by rinabean on Oct 19, 2017 15:55:20 GMT
Geez Surma, be assertive much? Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? It is a useless experiment. The average man can easily overpower the average woman, whether to attack her or to defend himself from her. Parley & Tony yeah maybe, but only because she's incredibly unusual. There is nothing to suggest Tony couldn't fight Surma off if he wanted to. It's like flipping a child and an adult in a situation. It doesn't make any sense in the real world. Yes, it would be equally wrong for a woman or child to do something to a man or adult if they were of equal strength, which they're not, which is why one is much more wrong than the other. It would be weird to have the same emotional reaction to a stronger person cornering or attacking a weaker person as the other way around.
There is nothing weird or aggressive about Surma kissing Tony at all. They have had heaps of chemistry for several pages. She has plenty of reason to think he feels the same way. And if he doesn't (and we know he at least eventually does so I don't understand why people are possibly seeing this as harassment) we have no reason at all to think Surma wouldn't stop and be really sorry. Honest mistakes can still be extremely uncomfortable but it's not something people hold a grudge over. The only dodgy aspect is that they're stranded in the jungle for a while longer. But as I said it's not like Surma is a physical threat to Tony so he's unlikely to be scared, even if he's not into her (and he is? I still don't get people's objections here?) People seem to be having as many problems with this chapter than the ones where Tony was abusing Annie, and I can see to a degree what the other side was thinking there, but I don't understand the controversy here. It's two people we know fell in love got married had a child and one went mental when the other died. Still people saying it's boring or saying it's brainwashing( ?) or sexual assault or unrealistic... I just can't think that people saying these things have ever been in these situations (and I don't mean bug watching in the jungle). We've known for ages that they're Annie's parents, we've known for ages that Tony loved Surma a lot, probably more than he loved Annie (or at least enough to sometimes regret having Annie), we've known for ages that she left Eglamore for him. This is one of the best chapters for a while in my eyes and normally I agree with most readers about which chapters are amazing and which are so-so
I don't get the outrage at the "cheating" either. The two times we've seen young Surma she complains Eglamore is never there. They're not married. It's not really the end of the world is it. If they're not married and he's never there they're only technically together. Donald's comforting Anja and dropping his plans so he can be there at her father's funeral. I guess Surma wants a relationship more like that. Now she's spending lots of time with a guy who's fascinated by her, respects her and includes her in his passions, even though they involve travelling. For all we know Eglamore wanted this too but just not quite as much as his training. It would explain why he's still so incredibly bitter about his high school girlfriend he never had time for leaving him for the man she married and had a child with, if he's really angrier at himself than her or Tony. Or maybe he doesn't get that she left because he was never there so he really does blame Tony! Jones seems like a bit of a yes-woman when it comes to him, I can't see her giving him honest advice (which is ACTUALLY creepy considering she's extremely physically powerful and was his mother figure before apparently becoming his lover!!). And I doubt she helped the whole situation either, didn't Surma say she hated her? Anyway I hope we see more of his side now we've seen more of hers (and not just because I still laugh at the comments about who that man is under every comic with him in)
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Post by faiiry on Oct 19, 2017 17:31:23 GMT
I'm surprised how much debate this page has ignited. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on most of these topics, except for the idea that Surma is somehow ignoring consent or something? Which I find ridiculous. Tony hasn't said no or pushed her off, and we'll have to wait for Friday to see if he does. If she ignores him THEN, then it's definitely an issue of consent. But right now? A spontaneous kiss between two cute teenagers alone in the jungle? I don't think there is any issue of consent to be raised here.
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 19, 2017 19:02:49 GMT
Geez Surma, be assertive much? Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? It is a useless experiment. The average man can easily overpower the average woman, whether to attack her or to defend himself from her. Parley & Tony yeah maybe, but only because she's incredibly unusual. There is nothing to suggest Tony couldn't fight Surma off if he wanted to. It's like flipping a child and an adult in a situation. It doesn't make any sense in the real world. Yes, it would be equally wrong for a woman or child to do something to a man or adult if they were of equal strength, which they're not, which is why one is much more wrong than the other. It would be weird to have the same emotional reaction to a stronger person cornering or attacking a weaker person as the other way around. I understand what you are thinking, but please consider that there are other forms of power imbalance between people than just sheer physical strength. For example being their superior at the workplace. Just a few weeks ago a friend of mine lost their best opportunity at getting a new job because they refused dating their (thirty years older! - and certainly not physically stronger) future employer. And to comment the actual comic page, I am actually interested in Tony's scientific thoughts here. How does the energy get converted, how does the lost energy get replaced - we have never seen any evidence that Annie or Surma had any need to replace energy, contrary to Parley, who has to eat a lot to compensate for everything she burns when using her powers. And why can Annie convert more energy than Surma? (Also, re-reading, I find it really not unusual to assume Tony likes Surma already a lot and after the initial surprise does not mind at all making out with her now.)
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Post by davidm on Oct 19, 2017 20:50:28 GMT
Geez Surma, be assertive much? Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? If it is a girl making the move it is romantic, if it is guy doing same thing it is sexual harassment. See wikipedia article on Forced_seduction, and there are women out there actively guarding page to make sure it stays as "man-on-woman rape" and no mention of women doing same to men is allowed... try and page will be reverted within minutes. (Compare to examples in entertainment such as wedding crashers, lots of tv tropes on double standard. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmvRdJqZZkc is another example, lots of others. ) Goblins comic webcomic, a person who has never read comic before sees a page where a demon is threatening to gang rape someone in hell after they die. New person thinks it is the female character being threatened and gets all upset, flame war on commentary. But it is really a male character being threatened so everyone else later agrees it is ok page. Waterboarding is bad, but being happy about Bubba butt raping male prisoner in shower in prison is ok.
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 19, 2017 21:02:21 GMT
Frankly the only time I find dating more than one person problematic is when one party is mislead into thinking the relationship to be exclusive. I mean you (probably) don't need to specify how many others you're dating, just make sure the other person is in the know about the relationship and is willing to go along with such arrangement.
That said, regardless of the status of her relationship with Eglamore, I really can't say I'm surprised how Surma handled things or get worked up about it.
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Post by Gotolei on Oct 19, 2017 21:09:36 GMT
Re: 70s As confusing as the $currentyear timeline of this comic gets at times (starting in 2005 but showing Kat playing ps3/ps4 games with only a couple school years in between, etc), about 30 pages ago there was something that can at least set a lower bound on the year range: No, let's talk about dating the episode using the plane model instead. It's almost certainly a BEECH King Air F90, which was in production from 1979 to 1983. But it could also be an F90-1, which ran from 1983 to 1985. Regardless, this is no earlier than 1979.
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 19, 2017 23:40:56 GMT
On the subject of cheating: we really don't know what is goin' on between Surma and Eggers for certain, but the implications thus far have been that there is something going on, and that Surma isn't happy about him being off on training. Upcoming pages should hopefully shed some light on that situation. And as far as dating multiple people goes... I don't think Eggers would be the kind of personality who'd be comfortable with that. Just my impression of him. Well yeah, but we've also gotten ample evidence Surma hates the guts off of Jones, and so far we aren't quite sure why. Perhaps Eggers had been sort-of dating her or Jones had always been sort-of possessive of him? It's clear enough that Eggers likes Surma and perhaps even more than he liked Jones, but Jones sure made a move on him quick if they had not previously been 'together'. It may be that Surma really liked James but couldn't stand the weirdness of his Jones relationship, and flipped over to Tony when she found him just as attractive and far more available... I'm not certain why Surma hates Jones, either. As you say, we don't have that info. I feel like you may be misunderstanding Jones' motions. It's hard to say, given her flat affect, what she's thinking, but I wouldn't really consider her to be having a romantic relationship with James. She's been a lifelong companion to many people over millennia. She is now companion to James. I don't think there is anything suggestive to be found in that: it's just a fact that she is a companion to him, period. She is, bar none, the best and most absolute friend he has. Regarding the positions we find them in in pages previous to that... I've found myself in much the same positions with cousins of mine, and while I cannot deny those cousins being attractive, I ain't gonna date 'em. Affectionate, sure. Romantic? Not necessarily.
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Post by fia on Oct 20, 2017 1:32:32 GMT
Well yeah, but we've also gotten ample evidence Surma hates the guts off of Jones, and so far we aren't quite sure why. Perhaps Eggers had been sort-of dating her or Jones had always been sort-of possessive of him? It's clear enough that Eggers likes Surma and perhaps even more than he liked Jones, but Jones sure made a move on him quick if they had not previously been 'together'. It may be that Surma really liked James but couldn't stand the weirdness of his Jones relationship, and flipped over to Tony when she found him just as attractive and far more available... I'm not certain why Surma hates Jones, either. As you say, we don't have that info. I feel like you may be misunderstanding Jones' motions. It's hard to say, given her flat affect, what she's thinking, but I wouldn't really consider her to be having a romantic relationship with James. She's been a lifelong companion to many people over millennia. She is now companion to James. I don't think there is anything suggestive to be found in that: it's just a fact that she is a companion to him, period. She is, bar none, the best and most absolute friend he has. Regarding the positions we find them in in pages previous to that... I've found myself in much the same positions with cousins of mine, and while I cannot deny those cousins being attractive, I ain't gonna date 'em. Affectionate, sure. Romantic? Not necessarily. I dunno, I feel like with the emotional and other context, Tom has gone out of his way since early in Jones' appearance to make it clear Jones and James are now involved. Whether or not it is sexual, or how romantically James feels about it, their behavior starting with the page I linked to originally is couple behavior, not just companion behavior. Arguably, Rey and Annie are companions, as are Kat and Annie, but the Brits, particularly between genders, don't typically kiss on the cheek to indicate friend-affection...
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jocobo
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by jocobo on Oct 20, 2017 3:29:58 GMT
The second link to me honestly seems more parental than anything. Ruffling my hair and putting a hand on my chin to take a good look at me is something my aunts do, especially if they haven't seen me in awhile. I took the focus on the touch being more to show Annie's noticing of it and suspicion rather than an objective examination due to the zoom in on Annie's face in the next panel. It occurs again here: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=381I see their relationship as intimate in the sense that Eglamore is very emotionally attached to her and Jones is used to playing the role of a lifelong companion but, for no other reason than Jones unique physiology, I can't see it being physical.
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Post by Nepycros on Oct 20, 2017 4:00:58 GMT
There's a high possibility that Surma resents Jones for taking on a pseudo-mother role for Eglamore. Recall that Surma is part fire elemental, and in all likelihood her parent (whichever one passed on the flame; likely the mother) has almost certainly passed on given the poor girl's age. Perhaps her own emotional attachment or opinion of her mother has manifested as a spiteful dismissal of the (frankly disturbing) nature of Jones' history and role. Annie had no reason to believe that Jonesy was some kind of nanny up until she got the full scoop, and by then she'd already built up her own opinion of The Wandering Eye beyond any kind of parental projection.
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 20, 2017 4:19:12 GMT
There's a high possibility that Surma resents Jones for taking on a pseudo-mother role for Eglamore. Recall that Surma is part fire elemental, and in all likelihood her parent (whichever one passed on the flame; likely the mother) has almost certainly passed on given the poor girl's age. Perhaps her own emotional attachment or opinion of her mother has manifested as a spiteful dismissal of the (frankly disturbing) nature of Jones' history and role. Annie had no reason to believe that Jonesy was some kind of nanny up until she got the full scoop, and by then she'd already built up her own opinion of The Wandering Eye beyond any kind of parental projection. Surma said a few pages ago that her mother passed away when she was young. It would be interesting to note from this chapter: Surma wasn't the biggest fan of Tony until she saw past the flat affect he keeps up in most circumstances. Her problem with Jones could entirely be a perception of Jones along the same lines as she had of Tony: emotionless, stiff, stony (hey... S tony!), and just generally frustrating to deal with from the perspective of someone as emotive as Surma.
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Post by maxptc on Oct 20, 2017 5:11:54 GMT
I feel like a lot of this cheating talk is based off of James being liked, and empty man being more or less reviled by people here, and not on anything the story has told us. This relationship between Surma and James has always read as very "High School crush/soulmate" to me, nothing has said or even implied they were "dating" or "kissing" or "going somewhere" or doing anything at all really. Just two teenage kids dreaming about each other, and having chemistry that is obvious to other highschool aged kids. That's hardly enough to presume a relationship.
"How could she choose him over me" sounds like something someone who never made a move would say after his crush had made a move on someone else. If it was Surma dumping him for someone else I'd expect a more detailed response about Tony in that moment, and a less romantic view of Surma in the present.
So Surma throwing away a budding romance I'll give you, but assuming she is cheating or even in a relationship with James seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 20, 2017 5:42:00 GMT
I feel like a lot of this cheating talk is based off of James being liked, and empty man being more or less reviled by people here, and not on anything the story has told us. I do empathize with old Eggers about how awkward his position is with regard to Antimony. I don't imagine that I know a lot about his personality, though. So Surma throwing away a budding romance I'll give you, but assuming she is cheating or even in a relationship with James seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It was formsprung that Surma and Eggers were dating "for a while." There's a high possibility that Surma resents Jones for taking on a pseudo-mother role for Eglamore. I've speculated that before but after reading this chapter I think it's also possible that it was just Anthony's unavailability during training or missions combined with the fact that Jones may have gone along on some of those as an indestructible instructor where Surma wasn't allowed (either for danger or as a distraction) plus the amount of time Jones spent with Eggers overall. Surma may not have had as much exposure to etheric beings and the odd and unusual as Antimony but she should have had some, so I figure it's not likely that Jones' demeanor by itself would be an issue even if she disliked Anthony's detachment. The mother thing sure wouldn't help her get along with Jones, though. It would be interesting to note from this chapter: Surma wasn't the biggest fan of Tony until she saw past the flat affect he keeps up in most circumstances. Her problem with Jones could entirely be a perception of Jones along the same lines as she had of Tony: emotionless, stiff, stony (hey... S tony!), and just generally frustrating to deal with from the perspective of someone as emotive as Surma. Also all other human males are some (probably a good number of) kilometers away. Surma may be used to getting regular attention. Anthony's the only saloon in Two-Week Dryspell Gulch. I see their relationship as intimate in the sense that Eglamore is very emotionally attached to her and Jones is used to playing the role of a lifelong companion but, for no other reason than Jones unique physiology, I can't see it being physical. We've debated at length on this forum if physical relations with Jones are safe or even possible.
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 21, 2017 22:31:23 GMT
There's a high possibility that Surma resents Jones for taking on a pseudo-mother role for Eglamore. I've speculated that before but after reading this chapter I think it's also possible that it was just Anthony's unavailability during training or missions combined with the fact that Jones may have gone along on some of those as an indestructible instructor where Surma wasn't allowed (either for danger or as a distraction) plus the amount of time Jones spent with Eggers overall. Surma may not have had as much exposure to etheric beings and the odd and unusual as Antimony but she should have had some, so I figure it's not likely that Jones' demeanor by itself would be an issue even if she disliked Anthony's detachment. The mother thing sure wouldn't help her get along with Jones, though. In the "Ties" chapter, Donny said Surma could not stand Jones. That was before Mr. Thorn recruited James for Protector training.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 22, 2017 0:35:18 GMT
I've speculated that before but after reading this chapter I think it's also possible that it was just Anthony's unavailability during training or missions combined with the fact that Jones may have gone along on some of those as an indestructible instructor where Surma wasn't allowed (either for danger or as a distraction) plus the amount of time Jones spent with Eggers overall. Surma may not have had as much exposure to etheric beings and the odd and unusual as Antimony but she should have had some, so I figure it's not likely that Jones' demeanor by itself would be an issue even if she disliked Anthony's detachment. The mother thing sure wouldn't help her get along with Jones, though. In the "Ties" chapter, Donny said Surma could not stand Jones. That was before Mr. Thorn recruited James for Protector training. Sure, and JimmyJims was spending lots of time with Jones before he started training. Once the kids were of dating age whatever Jones' attitude toward James dating in general, and later with Surma in particular, would probably rub Surma the wrong way. Jones would be protective but I doubt Jones would act like a mom and if she did it would be creepy. If Jones was in favor of James dating that would probably be weird, if she was against it then she would be prudish/judgmental/whatever. Jones has lots of experience so she's impossible to shake up or put one over on. She's also a point of comparison in James' line of sight regarding female looks, knowledge and temperament that will not always be in Surma's favor. That makes her someone that Surma would like out of the room when she and her friends (including Jims) would be hanging out. But those things are because of Jones' relationship with an attractive and single young dude. If she had met Jones under other circumstances, like through mediumship, they would have been less of or non-issues. Jones is stable, knowledgeable, perhaps useful, and non-hostile. Likely before Surma considered Eggers as someone she herself wanted to spend alone-time with, she would have considered Jones as something that would be making the world a less beautiful place.
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Post by mturtle7 on Oct 24, 2017 5:23:49 GMT
Sure, and JimmyJims was spending lots of time with Jones before he started training. Once the kids were of dating age whatever Jones' attitude toward James dating in general, and later with Surma in particular, would probably rub Surma the wrong way. Jones would be protective but I doubt Jones would act like a mom and if she did it would be creepy. If Jones was in favor of James dating that would probably be weird, if she was against it then she would be prudish/judgmental/whatever. Jones has lots of experience so she's impossible to shake up or put one over on. Hmmm...you know, considering Jones' millennia of experience with human relationships, I wonder if she immediately KNEW that Surma and James' relationship wouldn't work out. She might have just decided it would be best to let it run its course...of course, on the other hand, she's proven herself entirely willing to intervene in other people's love lives. Like you said, it probably wouldn't thrill Surma in either case.
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Post by warrl on Oct 24, 2017 22:30:26 GMT
Hmmm...you know, considering Jones' millennia of experience with human relationships, I wonder if she immediately KNEW that Surma and James' relationship wouldn't work out. She might have just decided it would be best to let it run its course...of course, on the other hand, she's proven herself entirely willing to intervene in other people's love lives. Like you said, it probably wouldn't thrill Surma in either case. Jones would likely also be able to discern when things are moving nicely in the right general direction on their own, and when something needs a judicious shove.
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