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Post by fish on Oct 18, 2017 15:22:54 GMT
So, are we placing bets on what Tony's reaction will be? Will he play along or push her away (and play along later on)?
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Post by Deepbluediver on Oct 18, 2017 15:43:55 GMT
Geez Surma, be assertive much?
Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed.
Is your emotional reaction the same both times?
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Post by philman on Oct 18, 2017 15:44:49 GMT
So, are we placing bets on what Tony's reaction will be? Will he play along or push her away (and play along later on)? I'm pretty sure he isn't the type to just play along, we've seen how he reacts to things that surprise him and that he doesn't understand before. I'm hoping we finally get some good talking about relationships, both about these two and about Eglamore, going on in the next few pages!
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Post by gunnerscrag on Oct 18, 2017 15:51:10 GMT
Can I just say Surma NO
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Post by hp on Oct 18, 2017 15:58:15 GMT
I'm a little confused by all the talk of Surma cheating. Has it been established that she's dating Eglamore at this point in time? I´m lost there too. We know Eglamore loved her and that Surma gave him that folding knife, but I missed where it was said both were officialy dating at the specific period of this chapter. I honestly don't understand why people find it hard to believe she might have honestly fallen for him. He's clearly an entirely different person when he's not inside the court's view or surrounded by a lot of people. For all we know, this Tony was the Tony Antimony grew up with (all we really got of past Tony was a pat on the head in a memory). Agreed. Besides, at this time he is just shown to be aloof and socially anxious. What seems to have crushed his soul and turned him into a bitter asshole was the process of losing Surma and his guilt for not being able to do anything about it (as he formulates it to Donald that time they took a drink in Tony's apartment). Seeing the dude like this, knowing how he'll end up, is freaking tragic
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 18, 2017 16:09:57 GMT
My take on Tony's thought process starting with panel 2: "Hmm." "Huh?" "What?" "What." "WHOA NOW!"
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Post by csj on Oct 18, 2017 16:22:08 GMT
Uhh this is my go-to method, and has been well-received thus far by My Type, which, like Surma, is apparently Nerds Who Can't Get The Hint looool Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? It's an interesting situation. We see examples of both sexes being 'forward' in media, but positive examples generally have the female 'taking the lead'. I rather feel like this is part of cultural gender bias and while I can totally be in the 'Nerds Who Can't Get The Hint' category, holy shit would I have freaked out if this was me when I was their age (aka 7-10 years ago, late 20s sucks). I had an emotional meltdown after one of the popular girls in school started hitting on me out of nowhere for a day or so when I was 18. I've also over-thought like crazy over being propositioned far more recently. Grabbing a cute boy and kissing them unexpectedly is a big gamble imo because it assumes mutual romantic feelings which if incorrect, are likely to be viewed as sexual harassment (which it is). Has it ended potential relationships before they even began? Probably. As I alluded in my last post, the timing with a certain social media campaign is likely coincidental but I think it's also a good reminder that these issues affect both genders - women more than men, don't get me wrong, but please. If you're planning on kissing me when I'm being a demi-ace dork, please let me know in advance.
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Post by Eisenblume on Oct 18, 2017 16:22:56 GMT
I'm a little confused by all the talk of Surma cheating. Has it been established that she's dating Eglamore at this point in time? Good point. Though wasn't there some comment about her cheating in an earlier chapter? Or at least implied? Would explain Eglamores dislike in a more direct manner than "just doesn't like the guy". Unrelatedly, I would also like to note that these people are children, or as close to children as there to be no real difference. They might not act in the most logical or thoughtful manner, to say the least.
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Post by birdwhisperer on Oct 18, 2017 16:39:17 GMT
We already knew Surma was capable of tricking Renard into thinking she was in love with him. There's no reason to think she's a paragon of virtue, so yeah, not surprised she would cheat on a mostly-absent boyfriend. I'm guessing Tony will freak out a little. Surma definitely should've checked for consent before doing something so brazen but, again, she's not a saint so it shouldn't be surprising. For those not sure if Surma and James are dating, this page suggests that they are, but James has been away for a while. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1868
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Post by Per on Oct 18, 2017 16:48:45 GMT
Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? But female writers of bodice rippers assure us all women really want are dominant men! It cannot do a false
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Post by foresterr on Oct 18, 2017 17:03:35 GMT
We don't have an explicit timeline and now that I think about it, it has never actually been explicitly stated. No timeline, but looking on your links, I think current chapter must be not that long after this, but some time before this, and quite a while before this. It's quite a love triangle story if so
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 18, 2017 17:44:05 GMT
Things are moving a liiiitle fast for my taste. These two have been hanging out for what, a week? And it took Surma that long to forget her boyfriend of several years? She must have been especially lonely, or something else we're not seeing, because this is kind of unreasonable. EDIT: Although I have to admit there is no proof that Surma is actually dating our man Eggers at this point in time. Perhaps she simply dreams about his muscles without having any kind of romantic connection to them. EDIT AGAIN: I am developing a theory that the romantically entangled slugs give off some sort of potent love spell. Although it obviously doesn't work on Tony. Because he's a robot. Watch him respond with vague annoyance on the next page. This was bothering me, so I went back and counted changes of outfit and explicit "Next day" signs (mainly outfit changes). Based on just those things, we're on day 14 of the trip.
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Post by hp on Oct 18, 2017 17:53:20 GMT
For those not sure if Surma and James are dating, this page suggests that they are, but James has been away for a while. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1868I didn't get that vibe. I understood the point of that page as Donald, Anja and Eglamore being her closest friends, while she is less familiar with Tony (Anja even says "you've never been with Tony without Donald!"). But since everyone will be out, she goes with Tony to help him and not being bored alone in the Court. I think Eglamore got a "special" mention in that bubble simply because Surma was detailing WHY everyone from her "inner circle" would be out.
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Post by westwindreborn on Oct 18, 2017 18:37:53 GMT
I sort of read it as [she takes his hand] "Somethings up, better stop talking" [sits in his lap] "What is going on?" [Kiss] "WHAT IS GOING ON?" Exactly this, Tony looks like he is about to freak out. He is quiet and socially awkward and we have no indication any girl since Brinnie has tried to engage with him on a romantic level. Donnie did say she wasn't subtle about it, so i don't think what was going on stayed within their circle. #rumorMill So the brinnie/tony clusterfuck may have discouraged any other girls from approaching him. Which could mean this might be the first time he has ever had any kind of physical engagment with anyone! She basiclly took his first kiss without discussing it first.
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Post by Nepycros on Oct 18, 2017 19:29:48 GMT
Quick summary of this thread based on how prevalent their posts are: 1. Surma's cheating. 2. Surma didn't ask for explicit consent. 3. The ability for two people in isolation to fall for each other is questionable.
I just wanna say I think it's hilarious that we're judging a fictional character based on 2010's morality standards that have cropped up very... passionately over issues of consent, identity, and relationships. The scene is set in the 1970's. End of the sexual revolution, feminism is on the rise, women are embracing their own ability to be assertive. It's all groovy man. But apparently it's "problematic" now because of the highly insular way people expect others to pursue relationships in modern times. In those times, kissing a man by surprise and effectively sealing the deal would be a huge achievement. It really does feel like a lot of the criticism toward the comic's portrayal of Surma and Tony's relationship is based on an idealized version of a relationship that modern minds demand without having much in the way of experience for how non-verbal or spontaneous attraction and intimacy can form.
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Post by fia on Oct 18, 2017 20:49:11 GMT
OK, to all the people surprised at how "quickly" this is all going:
This is very personal information, but my current partner and I spent the night together on our second date. We had only known each other for two days. It would have been sooner, but our first date was mega-awkward. On our second date we watched 'Psycho', which is not a film I even now associate with romance, and before we started making out we were talking about taxidermy and the deaths of family pets, somehow.
You can totes magotes fall in love with someone in a week or, well, however long it's been here; and lust ain't got no respekt for what is or is not supposed to be what you talk about before you make a move.
On the subject of cheating -- I ain't never done that, but I have dated more than one person at the same time, which is totally possible, (that's how I found out I am actually built for monogamy), and we don't know what Surma's deal with Eglamore is in detail.
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Post by arf on Oct 18, 2017 22:24:42 GMT
Is that an acceptable answer, Tony? I wonder if that incident will come up in the subsequent conversation.
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 18, 2017 22:59:49 GMT
I was reading this chapter as a "how they became friends!!!" or "how they developed a crush!" story but now I'm preeetty confused by what's happening. This is a strange first kiss to me: She is impulsive.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 18, 2017 23:44:17 GMT
We don't have an explicit timeline and now that I think about it, it has never actually been explicitly stated. But it's very heavily implied that they were dating for a long time, probably started shortly after this incident. In later flashbacks we either see Surma and James close together, or Surma complaining about him beeing away on his training trips. She even does it in the current chapter which is the probably the strongest indication that, yes, they are currently dating. It's not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on. Is agree though In My Humble Experience clarity is the enemy of teenage relationships; it's very possible that Eggers thinks they're going steady (and has good reasons for doing so) while Surma never explicitly said they were exclusive (or did and later retracted it, perhaps in a way that Eggers didn't pick up on or had no way of knowing about) and feels no obligation towards him. If she feels he has an obligation of fidelity to her is a completely separate issue. There's a fine line between knowingly allowing someone to mislead themselves while you're enjoying the perks of being in a relationship with them and actively deceiving them. Context can also be a tricky thing. What may appear to outside observers to be okay may, to those involved, be clearly unethical and vice versa. At least we can be reasonably sure what we're seeing in the comic is what happened (as opposed to what Anja actually got from Surma) since people tend to put a good spin on their own actions and omit inconvenient details... And that's when they're trying to be honest. Tony is currently scientifically commenting/analysing Surma, not the most romantic thing If a girl was scientifically analyzing what made me unique, I'd be all over her. That's basically how scientists show their interest in something: by enthusiastically trying to understand everything there is to know about it. If Tony wasn't personally interested, he might still collect data for science's sake, but he wouldn't be discussing early conclusions over breakfast. Taking that thot (heh) a step farther, the power and control dynamic between Surma and Anthony would probably be very different than between Eggers and Surma.
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novia
Full Member
Posts: 225
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Post by novia on Oct 18, 2017 23:52:02 GMT
Geez Surma, be assertive much? Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? Tony, get your bony butt off of me.
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Post by faiiry on Oct 19, 2017 0:32:15 GMT
Geez Surma, be assertive much? Here's a fun little thought experiment someone once taught me- imagine any scene with a man and woman that's supposed to be romantic/funny/dramatic/whatever. Now picture that same scene in your head, playing out the same way, except with the genders of the characters reversed. Is your emotional reaction the same both times? In this case yes, since I don't like this pairing and I only feel vague discomfort and a wish for it to be over. Gonna be honest, I feel nothing for the relationship of these characters. If it was Tony doing the macking, wouldn't make any difference.
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Post by jda on Oct 19, 2017 0:36:28 GMT
One update, Surma! I lost just one update and then I come to this?
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Post by calpal on Oct 19, 2017 1:03:38 GMT
So, are we placing bets on what Tony's reaction will be? Will he play along or push her away (and play along later on)? Tony: "Whoa, wait! You're still dating James! Back up!" Surma: "He's distant and you're interesting. You're going to pass this up?" Tony: "... I might need some more persuasion."
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 19, 2017 1:06:38 GMT
On the subject of cheating -- I ain't never done that, but I have dated more than one person at the same time, which is totally possible, (that's how I found out I am actually built for monogamy), and we don't know what Surma's deal with Eglamore is in detail. Regarding all the other stuff you said: yeah, it doesn't always take ages for people to start taking steps. On the subject of cheating: we really don't know what is goin' on between Surma and Eggers for certain, but the implications thus far have been that there is something going on, and that Surma isn't happy about him being off on training. Upcoming pages should hopefully shed some light on that situation. And as far as dating multiple people goes... I don't think Eggers would be the kind of personality who'd be comfortable with that. Just my impression of him.
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Post by youwiththeface on Oct 19, 2017 1:45:40 GMT
1 page ago Some people said:Hehe. Yeah. Totally. It still is! That's what's frustrating! You have two teenagers running off into the rain forest who end up having something of a rendezvous....and it's still duller than dishwater! I was kind of hoping the story of how Surma fell for Tony would be a bit more involved than "They spent a bit of time together", personally.. Yeah, it's not incredibly satisfying. And while Tony is looser here than he is at the court, I'm still not seeing any real appeal to the guy. Unless Surma was just that hard up for some lovin'.
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Post by warrl on Oct 19, 2017 5:17:52 GMT
The scene is set in the 1970's. You sure? I met my mate in the last few days of 1977, and we have a great-grandchild.
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Post by philman on Oct 19, 2017 7:40:47 GMT
The scene is set in the 1970's. You sure? I met my mate in the last few days of 1977, and we have a great-grandchild. Given that the average age of parenthood is almost 30 now, I think that your family's experience is probably more unusual than most! I would have put this story in the late 70's/early 80's personally, just because their fashions look pretty similar to the photos of my parents when they were dating around that time.
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Post by Seraphnite on Oct 19, 2017 12:35:40 GMT
I don't think we can put everything on the trope of nerdy guys not knowing how to initiate romance. Tony has been shown to continuously struggle with dating and relating to other people. He clearly has some form of social anxiety which Tom has shown developing as he grows up. When Surma kisses him she is taking the initiative. I get the idea of asking for consent, but that overlooks unspoken intimacy. They have clearly had physical contact before, and he reacted positively to the hug Surma gave him prior. Surma is reading Tony and is following up with the clues Tony has shown that he doesn't mind her touch. This is how most of us interact. She is invading his space, but this is not the first time, and it's a natural progression to go from hug to kiss. To give real-world context, I kissed my bf on our first date. He was showing me how the hood on his jacket was too big as it covered his eyes, and I went in for the kiss. He couldn't see it coming, but I had received subtle hints that the date was going well and wanted to take the next step in a romantic way. He reacted positively to that assumption. However, had he not, and told me off, then I would have to back off. Therefore, if Tony pushes Surma away, it is then that the matter of lack-of-consent comes into play. If he does, she should stop and respect that boundary. To understand consent we have to understand its as much a nonverbal cue as it is a verbal one. If someone is physically resisting, the other person should stop just as sure as they should stop if they hear no. A couple of people have mentioned that if the genders were flipped it would 'feel' differently. The only thing that is gendered overtly feminine about her advance is her sitting on his lap. Which is not that big of a deal, and I think men should be able to do that to women. I truly don't believe there is anything wrong with what she is doing. Many relationships through history have developed over non-verbal consent. Let's not vilify Surma for it. Plus, let's not forget what Donny said about Tony and women who don't take the first initiative.
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Post by snowflake on Oct 19, 2017 13:45:58 GMT
I too see no reason to assume these are the seventies, given that the comic began in 2005 starring the 12 y.o. daughter of Surma and Anthony. We already knew Surma was capable of tricking Renard into thinking she was in love with him. How does that fit into the timeline? Did it already happen in the current chapter? It was probably pretty traumatic for all concerned, and must have influenced their view of the Court, but I see no trace of that here. On the other hand, Renard's own account strongly suggests that he was under the impression that Surma was in love with him when she and Tony became an item: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=801So I'm thinking: the flashback scene from Fire Spike has already happened, but the Daniel R. Schiff disaster still hasn't.
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Post by fia on Oct 19, 2017 15:28:54 GMT
On the subject of cheating -- I ain't never done that, but I have dated more than one person at the same time, which is totally possible, (that's how I found out I am actually built for monogamy), and we don't know what Surma's deal with Eglamore is in detail. On the subject of cheating: we really don't know what is goin' on between Surma and Eggers for certain, but the implications thus far have been that there is something going on, and that Surma isn't happy about him being off on training. Upcoming pages should hopefully shed some light on that situation. And as far as dating multiple people goes... I don't think Eggers would be the kind of personality who'd be comfortable with that. Just my impression of him. Well yeah, but we've also gotten ample evidence Surma hates the guts off of Jones, and so far we aren't quite sure why. Perhaps Eggers had been sort-of dating her or Jones had always been sort-of possessive of him? It's clear enough that Eggers likes Surma and perhaps even more than he liked Jones, but Jones sure made a move on him quick if they had not previously been 'together'. It may be that Surma really liked James but couldn't stand the weirdness of his Jones relationship, and flipped over to Tony when she found him just as attractive and far more available...
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