[1825] Did the right thing.

[keef]

That's right, Kat.

[Nepycros]

Positive reinforcement? In Gunnerkrigg Court? And a lack of criticism about Annie's motives or actions? Gadzooks!

[arf]

May 1, 2017 7:19:39 GMT Nepycros said:

Positive reinforcement? In Gunnerkrigg Court? And a lack of criticism about Annie's motives or actions? Gadzooks!

That's the positive reinforcement bit. Next comes the letdown: critique of the strategic planning. Proper way to carpet someone.

[itrogash]

Sorting out issues with a reason and conversation? Unthinkable.

[heranje]

Thank Dog for Kat.

[Earin]

Mission post-mortems are a good idea! It's important to make them about what you can do better in future rather than blame and accusations, though.

[Rasselas]

Finally, the voice of reason. Thank you, Kat.

[ariestinak]

Finally. Annie is grilled enough. It's time for some positive feedback. Now, let's start speaking about Kat being a machine god.

[Trillium]

May 1, 2017 11:28:31 GMT Rasselas said:

Finally, the voice of reason. Thank you, Kat.

 I'm so glad these two can talk to eachother. I love their relationship and how each is very connected to different worlds. Annie with elementals, the ether, the Realm of the Dead and the Forest. Kat, raised in the land of the Court and her connection to science and a very mechanical world. 

[Deepbluediver]

May 1, 2017 13:16:03 GMT ariestinak said:

Finally. Annie is grilled enough. It's time for some positive feedback. Now, let's start speaking about Kat being a machine god.

Kat is a lot friendlier to Annie anyway, but given that she is currently in the process of sparking a revolution in robot consciousness and redefining person-hood with little apparent knowledge or concern for the long-term consequences, I think any criticism about the not respecting the danger would have come across as even more hypocritical than Red's.


Which....is kind of the point (or at least one of them).  For everyone who gets on Annie's case and is saying things like "she should have been more careful" or "she should have known better", then let me as you- "why?" or "how?"  What past experience would have given her that impression?  In the very first chapter, she and Kat went wandering down a random spooky secret corridor in search of the Minotaur, a creature that according to myth feasted on human flesh.  They have been getting away with dangerous etheric shenanigans since literally day one (or in Annie's case, the age of 5 or 6), with virtually zero comeuppance.  If you are in the "Annie's plan was bad and she should feel bad" crowd, please find for me that exact moment when the story made a turn onto Grimdark Avenue and started taking itself seriously.  Please.

[faiiry]

The way things were looking in panel 3, I wondered if we might get to see Kat giving Red the Muut treatment!

I've been arguing with myself over this page all morning. On one hand, Kat is Annie's best friend and more than likely could just be telling her what she thinks Annie wants to hear. On the other hand, historically we know that Kat is not afraid to tell Annie the truth about her failings. I genuinely cannot figure out if I think Kat actually believes what she's saying.

I know no one else likely agrees with me, but I hope we hear some genuine criticism from Kat on the next page, if only gentle. Something along the lines of "Sure, you put us all in mortal danger, but hey, we volunteered!" I'd like to see a continuation of the honesty and/or tough love that Kat has displayed before. 

[youwiththeface]

I love how angry Kat is.

[Deepbluediver]

May 1, 2017 13:43:11 GMT youwiththeface said:

I love how angry Kat is.

Annie is her friend, and Red hurt her friend, ergo Kat is angry at Red.  Reacting emotionally is a natural human response- some people hide it better than others but everyone except for true sociopaths feels it to some degree.  And when you (or your friends or family or whatever) are attacked, it's also natural for people to get defensive.  This is why trying to surprise someone or play "gotcha!" in a debate is a bad tactic.  It throws them off their game, yes, but it also causes them to dig their heals in and be even more stubborn and less willing to engage with you.

If you'll notice, Kat calms down pretty quick.  That's the key- you want to defuse that anger, not encourage it.  That's what leads to meaningful dialogue.

[ctso74]

Well, that settles that... right?
Honestly, if Annie was the type of person to use people callously, she wouldn't be giving it this much thought. Not exactly a reason to excuse anyone's actions, but "bad" people usually don't self-reflect too much. Though, some constructive criticism from Kat would be nice.
Now, who's a fan of H.R. Giger and fourth dimensional shapes in the ether, Kat?

[Trillium]

 Now can they move on to a deeper conversation of what happened and how it impacts what they are doing as they move forward, without being interrupted?

[Zox Tomana]

May 1, 2017 13:38:05 GMT faiiry said:

The way things were looking in panel 3, I wondered if we might get to see Kat giving Red the Muut treatment!

I've been arguing with myself over this page all morning. On one hand, Kat is Annie's best friend and more than likely could just be telling her what she thinks Annie wants to hear. On the other hand, historically we know that Kat is not afraid to tell Annie the truth about her failings. I genuinely cannot figure out if I think Kat actually believes what she's saying.

I know no one else likely agrees with me, but I hope we hear some genuine criticism from Kat on the next page, if only gentle. Something along the lines of "Sure, you put us all in mortal danger, but hey, we volunteered!" I'd like to see a continuation of the honesty and/or tough love that Kat has displayed before. 

I feel like that would make perfect sense for Kat to do, and I want it to happen as well. The reason, I feel, that Kat is saying that Annie did the right thing (beyond taking Annie's side in a dispute) is a genuine feeling that Annie DID do the right thing. Kat's been with her for almost the whole Jeanne journey. She's learned all the same facts as Annie, all the same secrets as Annie... I highly doubt she came away from learning about Jeanne's past going "I think the Founders did the right thing, this whole Jeanne fiasco is fine and needs no changing."

When I read "You did the right thing," what I'm reading is "You did the right thing [by sending Jeanne and her lover into the ether, because they didn't deserve to be trapped down there]." We may yet get "...but your plan could probably have used a little work in the escape-should-everything-get-screwy-realm" or "but you should be reflective about what did go wrong, and you should really apologize to Andrew" but we shall have to wait to see.

[GriffTheJack]

I'll be interested to see what the ultimate consensus is between the four of them on this problem of heroic responsibility. From my view, four equal heroes means four-fold incentive to examine what went wrong and make steps to mitigate those risks in future quests, but now that I think about it I'm not sure where to place Smitty. Full hero with full responsibility, or more like a true companion to Parley? The girls are all definitely full heroes in this situation, so at the very least it falls to the three of them.

A three or four-way reasonable discussion of the risks and the outcomes would be nice, and something like that might be starting here with Annie and Kat.

[mturtle7]

Idea: Actually, Kat DOES have a few opinions about what they could have done better with the Jeanne situation, but she really, really, wants to end this conversation quickly so they don't get around to talking about her venture into the ether.

[warrl]

May 1, 2017 13:36:03 GMT Deepbluediver said:

May 1, 2017 13:16:03 GMT ariestinak said:

Finally. Annie is grilled enough. It's time for some positive feedback. Now, let's start speaking about Kat being a machine god.

Kat is a lot friendlier to Annie anyway, but given that she is currently in the process of sparking a revolution in robot consciousness and redefining person-hood with little apparent knowledge or concern for the long-term consequences, I think any criticism about the not respecting the danger would have come across as even more hypocritical than Red's.

Redefining personhood can have interesting repercussions... That's been a major focus of the comic Freefall for the past several years.

[faiiry]

I just realized that Kat appears to have a stereo behind her. I wonder if she's playing some Aphex Twin.

[antiyonder]

I think Red is right as far as Annie trying to be more thoughtful of those she seeks kelp from, but the problem is that she only chewed her out in my mind is both:
A. To demonstrate her devotion to Ayilu rather than merely being more attentive, and...
B. To keep her away from Ayilu.

Criticism is only effective if you're simply doing it to make the other person better, and without distractions such as rudeness to do so. And yes, it needs to come from someone in the position of throwing stones for the most part.

[Jelly Jellybean]

Indignant Kat has a long way to go before she can rival Red's Humph.




Also, that page on Tom's Tumbler also has his drawing of Paz as a little kid.

[Deepbluediver]

May 1, 2017 18:12:05 GMT mturtle7 said:

Idea: Actually, Kat DOES have a few opinions about what they could have done better with the Jeanne situation, but she really, really, wants to end this conversation quickly so they don't get around to talking about her venture into the ether.

That's an interesting point.  I've wondered before if Kat doesn't have some kind of Jones-esque aura (Jones-lite?) going on where she doesn't interact with or isn't affected by the ether to the same degree a normal person is, let alone someone supernaturally sensitive to it, like Annie.  It's sort of splitting the difference between Blessed with Suck/Cursed with Awesome that she can't do what Annie does, but it also makes her less susceptible to the same traps designed for someone specifically like Annie.

If Kat could get over her hate of Tony and have a frank, objective sit-down to share knowledge and theories, I wonder what the two of them might come up with?

[todd]

May 1, 2017 13:36:03 GMT Deepbluediver said:

For everyone who gets on Annie's case and is saying things like "she should have been more careful" or "she should have known better", then let me as you- "why?" or "how?"  What past experience would have given her that impression?  In the very first chapter, she and Kat went wandering down a random spooky secret corridor in search of the Minotaur, a creature that according to myth feasted on human flesh.  They have been getting away with dangerous etheric shenanigans since literally day one (or in Annie's case, the age of 5 or 6), with virtually zero comeuppance.  If you are in the "Annie's plan was bad and she should feel bad" crowd, please find for me that exact moment when the story made a turn onto Grimdark Avenue and started taking itself seriously.  Please.

Not all of Annie's past adventures have been like the meeting with Basil. She's had many genuine dangerous experiences, beginning with Reynardine almost possessing her in the very next chapter.

The "dangerous etheric shenanigans... with virtually zero comeuppance" did hold true for Annie before she met Reynardine, though; all of her adventures before that, including meeting the Guides at Good Hope, had been free from danger (at least, obvious danger). That's probably why Annie's been so casual about such perils (to the point where Eglamore had to tell her off about it after saving her from a berserk Ysengrin) for so long; her experiences with the Guides in the hospital had presumably led her to believe that the etheric world was safe and that all etheric beings were good-natured. (Indeed, whenever an etheric being does turn hostile, Annie frequently *does* freeze up and need rescuing.) Indeed, even her moments of peril may not have been enough to break the assumption, from those years in Good Hope, that the Guides were the norm for etheric beings, and that there might be other etheric beings out there who are a lot more dangerous and hostile.

[Deepbluediver]

May 2, 2017 0:36:16 GMT todd said:

Not all of Annie's past adventures have been like the meeting with Basil. She's had many genuine dangerous experiences, beginning with Reynardine almost possessing her in the very next chapter.

The "dangerous etheric shenanigans... with virtually zero comeuppance" did hold true for Annie before she met Reynardine, though; all of her adventures before that, including meeting the Guides at Good Hope, had been free from danger (at least, obvious danger). That's probably why Annie's been so casual about such perils (to the point where Eglamore had to tell her off about it after saving her from a berserk Ysengrin) for so long; her experiences with the Guides in the hospital had presumably led her to believe that the etheric world was safe and that all etheric beings were good-natured. (Indeed, whenever an etheric being does turn hostile, Annie frequently *does* freeze up and need rescuing.) Indeed, even her moments of peril may not have been enough to break the assumption, from those years in Good Hope, that the Guides were the norm for etheric beings, and that there might be other etheric beings out there who are a lot more dangerous and hostile.

And what was the end-result of her meeting with Reynardine? She ends up with a frickin' sweet magical pet/servant. If every situation that APPEARS dangerous inevitably resolves itself in your favor, what does that teach you?

If you want to argue that Annie needs to be more careful, that's fine. Maybe that's a lesson she needs to learn. If you want to argue that she SHOULD HAVE KNOWN she had to be more careful, then that's ridiculous because what in her life has EVER taught her that? Nothing.

[GriffTheJack]

I think that is definitely an exaggeration, Deepbluediver, considering the berserk Ysengrin example and more pertinently every single meeting she has ever had with Jeanne (I'm thinking of the big two, the one where she got her cut and the more important one in "The Coward Heart").

Without Smitty's luck powers and Parley's emotional teleportation, Annie would most definitely have died or been somehow seriously etherically hurt: "Coward Heart" (and the ROTD, a little) shows very clearly the level of caution necessary for dealing with Jeanne.

If this was some random ghost, I would agree with you that she had no reason to be cautious. Just look at her reaction when she met Jeanne the first time. As it stands, the group WAS very cautious during the fight, because they knew how dangerous it would be, and they still underestimated the danger.

As I said in the other thread, though, I'm not arguing about them being out of character or that it was poorly written. I agree with you that criticism should focus on what to do in the future now that they've made it out of the situation alive.

[Deepbluediver]

May 2, 2017 2:29:19 GMT GriffTheJack said:

I think that is definitely an exaggeration, Deepbluediver, considering the berserk Ysengrin example and more pertinently every single meeting she has ever had with Jeanne (I'm thinking of the big two, the one where she got her cut and the more important one in "The Coward Heart").

Without Smitty's luck powers and Parley's emotional teleportation, Annie would most definitely have died or been somehow seriously etherically hurt: "Coward Heart" (and the ROTD, a little) shows very clearly the level of caution necessary for dealing with Jeanne.

If this was some random ghost, I would agree with you that she had no reason to be cautious. Just look at her reaction when she met Jeanne the first time. As it stands, the group WAS very cautious during the fight, because they knew how dangerous it would be, and they still underestimated the danger.

As I said in the other thread, though, I'm not arguing about them being out of character or that it was poorly written. I agree with you that criticism should focus on what to do in the future now that they've made it out of the situation alive.

No, IMO it isn't.  Again, this isn't about being in danger, it's about the OUTCOME of that danger.  SOMETHING or someone always saved her, so Annie has never actually been seriously injured, nor seen anyone else (as far as I can recall) be seriously injured, so there's no reason for Annie not to assume that everything would work out fine this time, too.

Even here, in this final fight with Jeanne, Andrew did get stabbed but Annie got him healed with no consequence to anyone but herself.  Red's problems seem to be psychological- several people have argued convincingly that they are like PTSD.  But that's far harder for even a professional to diagnose and treat than physical wounds, and Annie is still a socially-stunted teenage girl.

[puntosmx]

May 2, 2017 0:43:22 GMT Deepbluediver said:

And what was the end-result of her meeting with Reynardine? She ends up with a frickin' sweet magical pet/servant. If every situation that APPEARS dangerous inevitably resolves itself in your favor, what does that teach you?

If you want to argue that Annie needs to be more careful, that's fine. Maybe that's a lesson she needs to learn. If you want to argue that she SHOULD HAVE KNOWN she had to be more careful, then that's ridiculous because what in her life has EVER taught her that? Nothing.

Well, Ysengrim already taught her that even those she feels comfortable with may turn on her if they are crazy enough.
But that would be all..... maybe, if she had had the perspective we, as audience have, might be more wary from her runs with her father, Coyote, Zimmy and others. But she indeed doesn't have that advantage.

[antiyonder]

I almost feel that she may have to someday be allowed to get burned so to speak. Even if she had some near death situations, I feel having someone to bail her out softens the blow and prevents her from fully getting the criticism.

[GriffTheJack]

May 2, 2017 2:36:55 GMT Deepbluediver said:

May 2, 2017 2:29:19 GMT GriffTheJack said:

I think that is definitely an exaggeration, Deepbluediver, considering the berserk Ysengrin example and more pertinently every single meeting she has ever had with Jeanne (I'm thinking of the big two, the one where she got her cut and the more important one in "The Coward Heart").

Without Smitty's luck powers and Parley's emotional teleportation, Annie would most definitely have died or been somehow seriously etherically hurt: "Coward Heart" (and the ROTD, a little) shows very clearly the level of caution necessary for dealing with Jeanne.

If this was some random ghost, I would agree with you that she had no reason to be cautious. Just look at her reaction when she met Jeanne the first time. As it stands, the group WAS very cautious during the fight, because they knew how dangerous it would be, and they still underestimated the danger.

As I said in the other thread, though, I'm not arguing about them being out of character or that it was poorly written. I agree with you that criticism should focus on what to do in the future now that they've made it out of the situation alive.

No, IMO it isn't. Again, this isn't about being in danger, it's about the OUTCOME of that danger. SOMETHING or someone always saved her, so Annie has never actually been seriously injured, nor seen anyone else (as far as I can recall) be seriously injured, so there's no reason for Annie not to assume that everything would work out fine this time, too.

Even here, in this final fight with Jeanne, Andrew did get stabbed but Annie got him healed with no consequence to anyone but herself. Red's problems seem to be psychological- several people have argued convincingly that they are like PTSD. But that's far harder for even a professional to diagnose and treat than physical wounds, and Annie is still a socially-stunted teenage girl.

I see your point, when it comes to Annie's experience with real consequences. Getting rescued and saved by the skin of your teeth could possibly create a habit of blindness to the full extent of the danger you got saved from. My only counterexample is the ROTD, and the long list of people talking about how they were murdered by Jeanne. On an intellectual level, she knew how dangerous Jeanne would be, enough to plan for multiple layered distractions before the real Parley v. Jeanne battle began (i.e. the most likely part to end in negative consequences)... And it still wasn't enough.

Sidenote, I'm reminded of the version of Mad-Eye Moody from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. He paid for statistics on the success of dark wizard hunters, and was told that the average hunter/auror died 8.5 times before reaching his "sufficient" level of CONSTANT VIGILANCE.

Is your argument here partly that in the future, Annie should notice this pattern of scraping by without permanent injury and do what she can to minimize the amount of rescuing that needs to be done? For example, they really probably should have waited longer and had people other than Parley trained for combat before going ahead with the plan. This period of post-mission reflection could be used partly in that way, determining which parts went wrong and how they went wrong, etc.

--

Antiyonder, I don't know that she needs to get burned, but somehow internalizing the scale of the consequences she has avoided through rescues would certainly help with the problem Deepbluediver is talking about.