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Post by puntosmx on May 2, 2017 3:21:38 GMT
I'll be interested to see what the ultimate consensus is between the four of them on this problem of heroic responsibility. From my view, four equal heroes means four-fold incentive to examine what went wrong and make steps to mitigate those risks in future quests, but now that I think about it I'm not sure where to place Smitty. Full hero with full responsibility, or more like a true companion to Parley? The girls are all definitely full heroes in this situation, so at the very least it falls to the three of them. A three or four-way reasonable discussion of the risks and the outcomes would be nice, and something like that might be starting here with Annie and Kat. Just happened to be rereading a chapter for the uptenth time and found that Smitty was considering Jeanne a non-plan some chapters ago. Just for perspective ^.^
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 2, 2017 3:25:39 GMT
Just happened to be rereading a chapter for the uptenth time and found that Smitty was considering Jeanne a non-plan some chapters ago. Just for perspective ^.^ I think no one remembers that because it was only a few pages before PazKat happened and the forums collectively lost their mind. GriffTheJackI read your most recent post and I'm planning a reply, I'm just to tired right now to make any more serious posts.
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Post by philman on May 2, 2017 8:36:00 GMT
I wonder whether Kat's opinion would change had it been Paz who was stabbed with Jeanne's magic ghost sword rather than Smitty or Ayolu.
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Post by youwiththeface on May 2, 2017 9:02:08 GMT
You know, it occurs to me that maybe it's not that Annie isn't cognizant of bad things that can happen, it's that she doesn't care. Or, put in another way, she feels she has to handle whatever happens herself. I'm thinking about Spring Heel Jack, that flashback where she cut her hand despite her mother's warnings, and the fact that her father left her alone after she lost her mother to fend and figure out her grief for herself. Annie's parents have been shit at teaching her to reach out to other people for help, to not try to handle everything alone. And that informs everything she does and gets her in over her head. In this case, it got her and Parley, Kat, Smitty, Robot and the faeries in over their heads.
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Post by todd on May 2, 2017 13:02:24 GMT
The snag in getting Annie to realize properly the dangers of her adventures is that: a) she's the main character, so her death would bring the story to a premature end, b) her friends are major characters whose continuing presence is necessary and c) the death or serious injury of one of the students (as in Andrew's case) would probably lead to the Court finally coming down hard enough on Annie and the rest to bring their exploits to an end.
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 2, 2017 13:12:49 GMT
I see your point, when it comes to Annie's experience with real consequences. Getting rescued and saved by the skin of your teeth could possibly create a habit of blindness to the full extent of the danger you got saved from. My only counterexample is the ROTD, and the long list of people talking about how they were murdered by Jeanne. On an intellectual level, she knew how dangerous Jeanne would be, enough to plan for multiple layered distractions before the real Parley v. Jeanne battle began (i.e. the most likely part to end in negative consequences)... And it still wasn't enough. Right, and that's not necessarily just an Annie problem, it's a thing most teenagers have to deal with. The mix of an increase in freedom with a lack of life experience and responsibility (and lets not forget the hormones) can cause them to do all kinds of dangerous crap that would cause an adult to go "SWEET RAPTOR JEEZUS what were you thinking?!?!?!?" "Be more careful" is almost never bad advice, but in order to move the story along I'm not really sure what Annie could have done differently here. Maybe that was the pyscopomps intent, that Annie not try to deal with Jeanne until she was a fully-trained adult because why would time matter to the dead?, but it didn't play out that way for many reasons. The two things I have a problem with were Red being the one the deliver that screed (although to be fair I dislike it less now than when I first read it) because any value from that message tends to be lost in the outrage. And I have trouble seeing where this is going or what's the point; I don't know what the long-term payoff is going to be and only (maybe) understanding it months from now doesn't help me enjoy anything going on in the interim.
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Post by ohthatone on May 2, 2017 13:45:22 GMT
Just happened to be rereading a chapter for the uptenth time and found that Smitty was considering Jeanne a non-plan some chapters ago. Just for perspective ^.^ I can't find the page but Smitty was also the only one to ask why are they doing this. I remember Annie's answer being less than impressive--something like, because I'm a medium and so are you, times have changed and Jeanne's a forgotten prisoner from a forgotten time and I have to help her. They had a good reason--innocent souls were trapped. but Annie basically starts and ends with "because I wanna".
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Post by Zox Tomana on May 2, 2017 14:20:28 GMT
I'll be interested to see what the ultimate consensus is between the four of them on this problem of heroic responsibility. From my view, four equal heroes means four-fold incentive to examine what went wrong and make steps to mitigate those risks in future quests, but now that I think about it I'm not sure where to place Smitty. Full hero with full responsibility, or more like a true companion to Parley? The girls are all definitely full heroes in this situation, so at the very least it falls to the three of them. A three or four-way reasonable discussion of the risks and the outcomes would be nice, and something like that might be starting here with Annie and Kat. Just happened to be rereading a chapter for the uptenth time and found that Smitty was considering Jeanne a non-plan some chapters ago. Just for perspective ^.^ What do you mean by "non-plan"? When I'm seeing that page, I definitely see Smitty as being hesitant about the whole deal, but I don't see him being opposed and saying that "we don't have a plan here" or "this is a bad idea." I just get the impression that they haven't spoken about the issue in a while. He's concerned, certainly, but not of the mind that "this is not a thing."
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 2, 2017 16:50:41 GMT
Annie is her friend, and Red hurt her friend, ergo Kat is angry at Red. Reacting emotionally is a natural human response- some people hide it better than others but everyone except for true sociopaths feels it to some degree. And when you (or your friends or family or whatever) are attacked, it's also natural for people to get defensive. Nah. According to the fans, when someone hurts your friend, you just ignore it because they meant well. And if you try talking to them about it and their defenses and rationales makes no sense and just make them look worse, you ignore that too because they must have had good intentions and that's what matters. I guess this case could be different though. Like, maybe it's just more serious? I mean Ayilu only almost died, no big deal right? But mean, making Annie feel sorta bad for a few days, that's a much more egregious offense. Or it could be a harm case. Like, Kat has been upset by this news for literally multiple seconds whereas Red only has to deal with ptsd that prevents her sleeping at night. Maybe it's the agency issue. At the end of the day, Red and Ayilu chose to go along for this mission they basically knew nothing about, while Annie had no such choice. Red held her at gunpoint and forced her to have a conversation and come up with terrible rationalizations for her actions. Or maybe people are really obviously warping their moral logic to validate the protagonist. That or they're just racist against fairies.
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 2, 2017 16:58:43 GMT
In other news, fans continue to be terrible and to have no idea what actually makes the things they enjoy good and basically should not be listened to about anything. More on this story as it continues to develop across all of space and time.
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Post by Eversist on May 2, 2017 18:09:35 GMT
In other news, fans continue to be terrible and to have no idea what actually makes the things they enjoy good and basically should not be listened to about anything. More on this story as it continues to develop across all of space and time. "The fans" seems to be too sweeping of a statement. Fanbases get distilled down to this monolithic being, while there can totally be people who disagree with Red's criticisms/think she was in the wrong for how she said them, who are not the same people who hate the portrayal of Annie's dad, etc etc. Personally I am completely competent in letting the story go where it takes me without getting angry at the story itself, or outright telling or discussing how the author is "wrong" for how he wrote it, and there are plenty of people (here in this forum and otherwise) who are also capable. Besides, it could be argued that such passionate readers are the mark of a good story anyhow. People are so invested in these characters that they feel something is definitely right or wrong (even though yes, many of them can bugger off, haha).
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 18:33:27 GMT
Red could likewise be assumed to enclose a self-interested, self-aggrandizing power-play within a reasoned argument -- a rationalization that does not override the core motive, which would resemble Ayilu pretending to choke or hang herself to draw Red's attention. Such strategies can even mingle with strands of genuine love (from which combination whole stories can spawn, of course). I do think that her judgment was a sign of her maturation, but also a sign of what has not matured about her yet. Initially, Red was only interested in Annie (and Muut after her) because she thought she could help her achieve her own goals: whether that be (a catalyst for) divine intervention, or immanent environmental needs (and little about this changes in Red Returns) -- a chapter that also highlighted Annie's early sense of responsibility, which runs a curious parallel with her self-serving or haphazard streak -- but I've written enough about that elsewhere. Nor can either of the fairies claim complete ignorance of trapped Jeanne's inherent danger. Rejecting a cultural norm for oneself is not racist, although paying too much strictly-reproductive attention to those, rather than individually reasoning about virtues, usually reaches nowhere deeper than the surface anyway. Expecting "hollow" fairies (Coyote's still-mysterious modifier) and humans in the comic to behave similarly may indeed be a mistake, though. This post may also be a mistake, depending on your intentions.
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 2, 2017 18:43:42 GMT
Nah. According to the fans, when someone hurts your friend, you just ignore it because they meant well. And if you try talking to them about it and their defenses and rationales makes no sense and just make them look worse, you ignore that too because they must have had good intentions and that's what matters. That's a really skewed view on what happened, particular since Red ended any possibility of further discussion with her diva-like exit. Actually, she didn't, not more than anyone else, anyway, and a heck of a lot less than Andrew. Illusion-Ayilu got stabbed while real-Ayilu stayed safe, which was the whole point of the illusion all along. How do you know how much they knew about the mission? Was there some super-secret page it was explained on that I missed? So Red had days to think about this and said nothing to Annie or anyone else until she (Red) outright attacked her (Annie) and then walked away once she'd had her say before Annie could collect her thoughts. Whereas you're merely warping your moral logic to castigate her.
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 2, 2017 19:28:00 GMT
Nah. According to the fans, when someone hurts your friend, you just ignore it because they meant well. And if you try talking to them about it and their defenses and rationales makes no sense and just make them look worse, you ignore that too because they must have had good intentions and that's what matters. That's a really skewed view on what happened, particular since Red ended any possibility of further discussion with her diva-like exit. Actually, she didn't, not more than anyone else, anyway, and a heck of a lot less than Andrew. Illusion-Ayilu got stabbed while real-Ayilu stayed safe, which was the whole point of the illusion all along. How do you know how much they knew about the mission? Was there some super-secret page it was explained on that I missed? So Red had days to think about this and said nothing to Annie or anyone else until she (Red) outright attacked her (Annie) and then walked away once she'd had her say before Annie could collect her thoughts. Whereas you're merely warping your moral logic to castigate her. This is a kind of pathetic pile of rationalization and flat out fabrications. Red asked Annie to explain herself on several questionable decisions, which she spectacularly failed to do. She gave Annie plenty of chance to defend herself: to say that she "outright attacked her" and "ended any possibility of discussion with a diva-like exit" is simply a lie. To say that Ayilu came no nearer to death than anyone else is either nonsense or an admission of not having read the comic, I'm not sure which. It was made quite explicit that only dumb luck saved her. And my awareness of Annie's real and actual flaws isn't interchangeable with someone trying to Mary Sue her through bad rationalizations but nice false equivalence I guess?
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Post by GriffTheJack on May 2, 2017 19:33:25 GMT
Nah. According to the fans, when someone hurts your friend, you just ignore it because they meant well. And if you try talking to them about it and their defenses and rationales makes no sense and just make them look worse, you ignore that too because they must have had good intentions and that's what matters. That's a really skewed view on what happened, particular since Red ended any possibility of further discussion with her diva-like exit. Actually, she didn't, not more than anyone else, anyway, and a heck of a lot less than Andrew. Illusion-Ayilu got stabbed while real-Ayilu stayed safe, which was the whole point of the illusion all along. How do you know how much they knew about the mission? Was there some super-secret page it was explained on that I missed? So Red had days to think about this and said nothing to Annie or anyone else until she (Red) outright attacked her (Annie) and then walked away once she'd had her say before Annie could collect her thoughts. Whereas you're merely warping your moral logic to castigate her. Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax!" The best thing to remember, I think, is that as far as we know, the stuff said on this forum doesn't affect Tom's vision for the story. Arguments like this aren't going to change his mind or affect the comic in any way, so they are strictly interpretative. Basically, they don't matter, not even in any sort of political way. Even if "those fans" are wrong, it isn't going to change the comic for the worse, you know? It's sort of like the concept of emotivism, in that the only thing the arguers (including myself) are doing is communicating their thoughts and feelings, they aren't reaching any sort of absolute truth. I say this now because I realize that I'm falling into the same sort of trap, and I'd rather not. If this post is all common knowledge and this point is trotted out for every argument on here, I'll delete it instead of belaboring the point (I'm not a long-term forumgoer).
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 2, 2017 19:41:58 GMT
This is a kind of pathetic pile of rationalization and flat out fabrications. Red asked Annie to explain herself on several questionable decisions, which she spectacularly failed to do. Which she did as reasonably well as could be expect to do under the circumstances. Exactly what "decisions" do you still have a problem with? Are you really trying to tell me that taking 1 minute to have Andrew magically and completely healed was the wrong decision vs. hours of risky surgery and months of physical therapy for recovery? A 2 minute conversation that starts with "Everything bad that happened was YOUR fault" seems pretty much like an attack to me. And how else would you classify "never talk to me again"? Ok, at what point Ayilu come close to death then- and at what point was she closer to death than the guy who actually got daggered through the midriff. Can you see Red's flaws just as clearly? Baring the cheating on Kat's homework, AFAIK Annie's never done anything particularly manipulative or greedy in the entire story. Sure she's blunt to the point of rudeness at times, and yes she has flaws that she will hopefully grow out of. But you're portraying her like some kind of wicked puppet master, all the while ignoring the hypocrisy about not caring about others or a lack of caution coming from Red.
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Post by warrl on May 2, 2017 20:06:26 GMT
Maybe it's the agency issue. At the end of the day, Red and Ayilu chose to go along for this mission they basically knew nothing about, while Annie had no such choice. How do you know how much they knew about the mission? Was there some super-secret page it was explained on that I missed? Well, we know for sure that they knew that there was a lot of risk in the mission - Red said so - and that Ayilu knew what her part in the plan was, which wouldn't have been a spur-of-the-moment thing once they were down there. So the notion that they "basically knew nothing about" the mission doesn't seem tenable. It's possible that Red and Ayilu didn't internalize that the riskiness also applied to them. This is possibly even more true for them than for most kids their (apparent) age, considering that they've both been killed once already.
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 2, 2017 20:07:15 GMT
Annie was given an explicit chance to explain why she didn't want Andrew teleported to the medical facilities. And she explicitly said that it was fear of getting in trouble. She specifically failed to say that it was concern with the supposed inadequacies of Gunnerkrigg Court's medical facilities.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. The text provides a very clear and explicit case of Annie being reckless and irresponsible with the lives of others. But you ignore the text and make up your own version of events not supported by the actual narrative in order to justify the Viewpoint you already have of the story. You aren't reading what is being written, you are reading what you want to read.
The same could be said of course with the events around Ayilu, who explicitly almost died and explicitly was simply manipulated by Annie.
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 2, 2017 20:26:20 GMT
Annie was given an explicit chance to explain why she didn't want Andrew teleported to the medical facilities. And she explicitly said that it was fear of getting in trouble. She specifically failed to say that it was concern with the supposed inadequacies of Gunnerkrigg Court's medical facilities. That's what happens when people are upset or emotionally unbalanced, they tend to say the first thing the comes into their minds, not the objectively logical best answer. Again, are you telling me that Annie's choice to have Andrew magically healed was the WRONG decision? Reckless implies that she knew about the danger and somehow ignored it, when the entire reason the faeries where there was to try and avoid going toe-to-toe with Jeanne in the first place. And on top of that, the Faeries had seen Jeanne in action before and apparently known how dangerous she was, as evidenced by Red's "your friend would be dead" comment. They are clearly not as ignorant as you make them out to be. And you are accepting what Red says as gospel-truth without allowing for any alternative explanation. Was the situation dangerous? Yes it was. But it's hardly like Annie stayed behind and let everyone else do the work- she delegated based on everyone's individual talents. As far as I can tell, she did the best she could with what resources she had available. If being more careful is something Annie has to learn, that's fine. But pretending she should already have known that lesson is silly because she's never had to deal with this kind of thing before. Having an aesop delivered from the mouth of an unlikable, abusive character just roils everyone's stomach. Really? Would you mind linking me that strip? Surely you're not talking about this one, where we see exactly one strip later that Ayilu is in fact perfectly fine? Just like I explained before- simply because the name that was offered was worth less to Annie than it is to Ayilu doesn't make it an unfair trade. That's not how trades work.
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Post by puntosmx on May 3, 2017 3:37:34 GMT
Just happened to be rereading a chapter for the uptenth time and found that Smitty was considering Jeanne a non-plan some chapters ago. Just for perspective ^.^ What do you mean by "non-plan"? When I'm seeing that page, I definitely see Smitty as being hesitant about the whole deal, but I don't see him being opposed and saying that "we don't have a plan here" or "this is a bad idea." I just get the impression that they haven't spoken about the issue in a while. He's concerned, certainly, but not of the mind that "this is not a thing." I mean Andrew's first reaction is him asking if they are going to act upon Jeanne. Although below he is supportive, that support boils down to "I'll help you". This instils on me the impression that Andrew had already forgotten about Jeanne, and wasn't planning on actually going down to sort her out. Thus, not-a-plan. Nah. According to the fans, when someone hurts your friend, you just ignore it because they meant well. And if you try talking to them about it and their defenses and rationales makes no sense and just make them look worse, you ignore that too because they must have had good intentions and that's what matters. Ayilu was never hurt. If anyone was hurt, that was Andrew, and then only Parley should have a right to lash back at Annie. Red has no "right" to do so. I guess this case could be different though. Like, maybe it's just more serious? I mean Ayilu only almost died, no big deal right? But mean, making Annie feel sorta bad for a few days, that's a much more egregious offense. Ayilu "almost died" because Red was distracting her with all her petitions. Had the illusionist been more aware of the imminent danger to which Parley and Robot were reacting to, she could've done something to push Jeanne further down into the illusion. Yes, that might've been futile also, but that's the trick with "could have been"s. Or it could be a harm case. Like, Kat has been upset by this news for literally multiple seconds whereas Red only has to deal with ptsd that prevents her sleeping at night. Nobody needed Red down there. Nobody invited her. She had no part in the plan. she was just butting in because she's an asshole. That PTSD is thanks to her own desires to butt into everything just to bother everyone. That's a really skewed view on what happened, particular since Red ended any possibility of further discussion with her diva-like exit. This is a kind of pathetic pile of rationalization and flat out fabrications. Red asked Annie to explain herself on several questionable decisions, which she spectacularly failed to do. She gave Annie plenty of chance to defend herself: to say that she "outright attacked her" and "ended any possibility of discussion with a diva-like exit" is simply a lie. To say that Ayilu came no nearer to death than anyone else is either nonsense or an admission of not having read the comic, I'm not sure which. It was made quite explicit that only dumb luck saved her. It's not called "dialogue" is you shoer people with harsh judgements and then demand them to explain their rationales. Red allowing Annie to speak on the issue where Annie ACTUALLY made something fishy (not porting right away) doesn't mean that the rest of Red's arguments were automatically right, nor that her whole case was righteous. Red lashed at Annie and didn't allow her even to speak, and then allowed her one breath when she was weakened, confused, and when she would have no logical excuse. That is being vindictive. "Dumb" luck would be the only luck faeries seem to have, since everything they do might have coherence in their faerie minds, but certainly looks very dumb to us. And as I've stated every time, had Blue been aware of the danger and focused on what was happening, instead of fulfilling all the wishes and requests from Red, the confrontation would have been radically different.
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 4:14:59 GMT
Annie was given an explicit chance to explain why she didn't want Andrew teleported to the medical facilities. And she explicitly said that it was fear of getting in trouble. Can you honestly tell me that you're able to perfectly collect your thoughts when you're not at your emotional best? I mean unless you're a vulcan, I doubt you'd be at ease if someone said "you're at fault for everything bad in my life".
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Post by Zox Tomana on May 3, 2017 4:41:10 GMT
Annie was given an explicit chance to explain why she didn't want Andrew teleported to the medical facilities. And she explicitly said that it was fear of getting in trouble. Can you honestly tell me that you're able to perfectly collect your thoughts when you're not at your emotional best? I mean unless you're a vulcan, I doubt you'd be at ease if someone said "you're at fault for everything bad in my life". Unless you're practiced at proper argumentation, you don't tend to be great at defending your decisions when being *attacked* for them. And being in trouble at Gunnerkirgg Court is not like being trouble at a normal school. Being in trouble about removing a guardian of Gunnerkrigg Court is also quite different to getting in trouble for being outside the dorms during curfew hours. "What were you doing down there?" "Sending the ghost into the ether." "The ghost that conveniently happened to be keeping dangerous creatures from the forest from crossing the ravine?" "Erm... yes?" "...So... you really thought opening a hole in the defenses of the Court, which happens to govern itself with essentially no outside interference, and which you know to have morally dubious practices, was really a good idea?" "It wasn't right for her to be trapped!" "Do you really think we care about a long dead spirit, of which we have official records, beyond the fact that it was defending us?" "Um..." "So, you were outside the grounds without permission, engaging in activities counter to the security of the court, and--according to this fairy who is pissed at you and wants to distance herself from you--nearly got our medium killed while risking the life of our trainee guardian as well as the daughter of two of our more valuable employees..." "Uh..." "We have a position open... some of our more morally twisted scientists would love to study that fire elemental..."
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 3, 2017 4:49:45 GMT
I feel like with some of the people in this forum I have to break things down to like the utmost absolute bare-ball basics, so I guess let's do that. Let's start with a little technique I like to call, "Reading the fucking text." (The medium being a comic book, 'text' here including the artwork, although that's not immensely relevant in this case because let's be honest most of the comic is talking heads.) Let's start by looking at the panel where Red confronts Annie about not teleporting Smitty to a medic: At this point I feel like I'm really not allowed to take anything for granted, So I am going to go ahead and highlight the most important part of the strip here, Annie's immediate response. Now Annie is our viewpoint character here, so we're going to get a pretty open and honest look at what she's feeling here. Her eyes are wide and her eyebrows lifted, suggesting surprise and vulnerability. This is to emphasize that she is just giving her immediate, honest take here. And she could have said several different things. Lots of stuff could go in that bubble and make sense right? Like, "Wow, I didn't think of that, I guess we could have just teleported Andrew to a medic," or, "I didn't know if they could have saved him," or anything like that. She gives her immediate, honest response, which is: She didn't want the Court to know what they were doing. Now, the counter people are saying itt and have said elsewhere is, "Well, but, sometimes people just say things without thinking about them, that doesn't mean she wasn't really just concerned about the medical facilities etc. etc.." Which like Is just so mind-bogglingly, shockingly wrong and nonsensical and flatly ignorant that I can scarcely find words to describe it. Let aside the question of whether or not GKC's medical facilities are better or worse than the psychopomps', which as far as I know we have absolutely no evidence to establish or not. This is a fucking comic strip. Like I can't even deal with this level of sheer willful ignorance. Nothing in comics or animation happens by mistake. Well, I mean, of course, animation errors happen by mistake, like forgetting a character's been burnt or smudged lines or whatever. But diagetic events, no matter how miniscule, cannot, by the nature of the medium, just happen accidentally. Every leaf that stirs on a branch, every hair that falls across a character's face, every shift in the shadows and the lighting, all of this is quite deliberate. Even in live action film it's silly to just assume these things are accidental, but it is stark raving madness to assert this about a comic strip. Annie's answer isn't flipping random noise. It did not pop into the comic strip by chance or spontaneously. Annie is not a real person who sometimes says innocuous or inconsistent things just through random brain-noise. She is a fictional character, a collection of lines and ideas put together into the simulacrum of a person by Tom Siddell in order to tell a story. Things in that story are, duh, part of that story and contribute to it, unless he's an incompetent or an idiot just spouting random gibberish onto the page. The comic conveys that that is Annie's actual reason for wanting to stop Smitty from getting teleported to a doctor because that is Annie's actual reason. This is a revelation in the developing story to shed light on earlier events and contain developing the story and thus create meaning through the interconnectedness of past and future events. It is not random things happening randomly at different portions in the story that have no bearing on each other. Like I feel like I have to hammer this point pretty hard because it seems to escape some of the people posting here, this whole "basic structure and nature of a narrative story" thing. You can imagine whatever alternate bizzaro version of the comic you want then, but in the actual text, the above dialogue illuminates this: As meaning that Annie wanted Parley to wait because she was worrying about the Court finding out. In other words, Smitty's actual health was a secondary concern for her in that moment. This is fucked up! Red is right! This is a revelation about a real problem with our protagonist's behavior! Now, Red then does make an actual jump in assuming that this was simply because Annie didn't want to get into trouble. The next layer of reasoning has not yet been revealed, but I don't think it's that. I think it's partly distrust of the Court, but also partly that Annie has become very used to and wants to be the director of events and control and compel others to what she considers their best interests, a tendency which she has long been developing and which also was probably reinforced by the period of disempowerment with her father. But that's just speculation, like I said. It's not explicated clearly by the text anyway, unlike some of these other things. Speaking of which, was Ayilu almost killed? Well, yes, as far as the story is concerned, this is a clear-cut case. So, here Jeanne clearly is trying to kill Ayilu. However, as we know, she actually misses because Ayilu was kneeling? So did Ayilu almost die? Yes, really obviously. A vengeful murder-ghost tried to stab her in the face and missed through described luck. Red isn't a reliable narrator of normal events, but she is our primary window into how fae stuff works and Ayilu's powers in particular, on which she seems to be authoritative, and she describes it as "lucky" and "out of her hands." (And also describes literal textbook ptsd she's experiencing over it.) This is probably because of basic cognitive functions that allow Red to notice things like 1) Jeanne could have sensed through the illusion at the moment. 2) She could have stabbed lower. 3) She could have stabbed twice. 4) She could have stabbed at a different time when Ayilu was projecting as also kneeling in the illusion, for instance: etc. etc.. Like the comic and events all strongly and pretty explicitly state that they are treating this as a real close brush with death and it's nonsense to pretend otherwise. I could keep going but like, at a certain point, I have to just say: This is actually a pretty good webcomic. Maybe you guys should try, idk, fucking reading it.
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 3, 2017 4:54:20 GMT
In fact, Ayilu's near-death was so clearly and explicitly outlined in the comic that I actually spent most of the early half of the last chapter worried that Ayilu was really dead and that it was just the lingering effect of her illusion powers making it seem otherwise and this was going to be another bury-your-gays moment.
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 3, 2017 4:58:28 GMT
Can you honestly tell me that you're able to perfectly collect your thoughts when you're not at your emotional best? I mean unless you're a vulcan, I doubt you'd be at ease if someone said "you're at fault for everything bad in my life". Unless you're practiced at proper argumentation, you don't tend to be great at defending your decisions when being *attacked* for them. Oh my god you flailing goobers Like read my previous wall of text but like, really It's not a fucking debate club, what's wrong with you Annie was asked her motive. Annie gave her motive. Stop pretending her motive was something noble when the comic explicitly states that it wasn'tWhat the freaking frack is wrong with you people
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 5:22:10 GMT
Can you honestly tell me that you're able to perfectly collect your thoughts when you're not at your emotional best? I mean unless you're a vulcan, I doubt you'd be at ease if someone said "you're at fault for everything bad in my life". Unless you're practiced at proper argumentation, you don't tend to be great at defending your decisions when being *attacked* for them. And being in trouble at Gunnerkirgg Court is not like being trouble at a normal school. Being in trouble about removing a guardian of Gunnerkrigg Court is also quite different to getting in trouble for being outside the dorms during curfew hours. "What were you doing down there?" "Sending the ghost into the ether." "The ghost that conveniently happened to be keeping dangerous creatures from the forest from crossing the ravine?" "Erm... yes?" "...So... you really thought opening a hole in the defenses of the Court, which happens to govern itself with essentially no outside interference, and which you know to have morally dubious practices, was really a good idea?" "It wasn't right for her to be trapped!" "Do you really think we care about a long dead spirit, of which we have official records, beyond the fact that it was defending us?" "Um..." "So, you were outside the grounds without permission, engaging in activities counter to the security of the court, and--according to this fairy who is pissed at you and wants to distance herself from you--nearly got our medium killed while risking the life of our trainee guardian as well as the daughter of two of our more valuable employees..." "Uh..." "We have a position open... some of our more morally twisted scientists would love to study that fire elemental..." Point taken. Though I'd imagine in their world this kind of stuff is normal to them. Antiyonder, I don't know that she needs to get burned, but somehow internalizing the scale of the consequences she has avoided through rescues would certainly help with the problem Deepbluediver is talking about. Perhaps, and it's more of a wait and see. Some can recognize the problems of their actions in time to better themselves, and others sometimes will keep on making the same mistake until the consequences aren't so pretty. I mean even if she doesn't have to burn herself so to speak, there's always the chance that her actions might have to result in serious harm or worse to someone she cares about before she seeks to improve. Something like what almost happened to Smitty, but no quick fixes or solution.
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Post by mturtle7 on May 3, 2017 5:28:38 GMT
red4bestgirlNever, in all the months I have frequented this forum (including the time I spent lurking) have I seen a single person turn the forum into a blazing inferno with such ruthless, unrelenting, obsessive, efficiency. You have my admiration, sir. Now please excuse me while I run for dear life before the aftershock hits.
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Post by Zox Tomana on May 3, 2017 6:20:16 GMT
Unless you're practiced at proper argumentation, you don't tend to be great at defending your decisions when being *attacked* for them. Oh my god you flailing goobers Like read my previous wall of text but like, really It's not a fucking debate club, what's wrong with you Annie was asked her motive. Annie gave her motive. Stop pretending her motive was something noble when the comic explicitly states that it wasn'tWhat the freaking frack is wrong with you people You seem to be under the mistaken impression I (at least) am saying her motive was fully something else with no self-preservation motive at all. Please take the time to understand the other side's point before you launch into personal attacks. I'm not arguing that Annie didn't want to get into trouble. I *am* arguing that Annie 1. was not in a position in which she could elaborate her thoughts properly and so gave the barest, most instinctive explanation, and 2. that the kind of reaction the authorities in Gunnerkrigg Court could have is not as benign as Red's dismissal would have you believe. This isn't about detention because they were outside during curfew. This is about retaliation by an independent, morally liberal, Big Brother type force because they removed a convenient guardian, thus putting it under threat, and brought harm to its useful pawn. I would also encourage you to understand it is possible to couple this desire to not get in trouble with a desire to bring about a more certain outcome. Annie knew the psychopomps could heal Smits. There is no guarantee of that with Court physicians. One of Red's claims was that Annie "stood around and talked to [the psychopomps]." This does not at all recognize the facts of what Annie was talking to them about: saving Andrew's life, right there and right then, for sure and for certain, and at the cost of Annie's own future. "You left him in pain because you didn't want to get in trouble?" What about: "You sacrificed your ability to choose your own path and had him healed right then and there, because you didn't want to get in trouble?" Still not a great motive for getting someone healed, but certainly an angle that should have been considered if this were the level, fair, accurate evaluation of Annie's actions you would argue it was. From that angle, the self-preservation motive results not in leaving someone in pain, but in securing sure-fire healing which came at personal cost. This is something which must be considered. Red's "discussion" with Antimony was nothing short of horrendous from the perspective of someone who has actually had to confront people about their motives, desires, and drives. It was not a constructive, critical dialogue with Annie: it was a personalized, antagonistic takedown. I understand that some people just like to troll and want to watch the world burn. I would prefer, however to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you wish us to engage seriously with you, however, you would do well to refrain from insults and properly engage with our side. If you do not wish to actually engage in proper dialogue with others, do not expect them to listen to you.
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 7:01:10 GMT
↑↑↑ Pretty much this. Additionally, I'm not really that much of a fan of Annie that I can't recognize that she is capable of being selfish or worse. I mean Reynardine lectures her on copying Kat's homework and she goes for a dickishly low blow. The motive I question is Red as I doubt she really cares about her comments making Annie a better person. It really seems that while she wanted to let out her legit gripes, it was more to tell Ayilu "Annie means nothing to me, I only have eyes for you". Heck, I have no doubt that we're suppose to view Annie as having screwed up, no doubt about it. Kat's reassurance is probably her being biased in favor of Annie (I mean heck, we have yet to see her expressing a little more reaction to Annie copying her homework), but if there's any indicator that Red's partially wrong: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1806Though he probably should have added #NotAllFairiesAreJerks
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Post by Daedalus on May 3, 2017 7:02:18 GMT
Unless you're practiced at proper argumentation, you don't tend to be great at defending your decisions when being *attacked* for them. Oh my god you flailing goobers Like read my previous wall of text but like, really It's not a fucking debate club, what's wrong with you Annie was asked her motive. Annie gave her motive. Stop pretending her motive was something noble when the comic explicitly states that it wasn'tWhat the freaking frack is wrong with you people I leave the forum for one goddamn day and it's on fire. Freaking kids these days. *crotchety waving of cane* Get off my lawn!
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